Question of the day
Thursday, Aug 21, 2008 - Posted by Rich Miller
* The setup…
An Illinois House committee Wednesday heard impassioned testimony from both sides on a bill that would provide early release for certain long-term inmates in state prisons.
The measure is prompted by the huge backlog of clemency petitions awaiting action by Gov. Rod Blagojevich. It would allow inmates 50 years of age or older, who have served at least 25 consecutive years in prison, to petition the courts instead of the governor for early release, so along as they are not sentenced to death.
Supporters called it a long-overdue, restorative measure; prosecutors called it unconstitutional, an overreaction to a temporary problem and a slap in the face of crime victims and their families. […]
Supporters also said that the courts would have the right to reject an inmate’s petition if they deemed a prisoner to be a threat, and say it is needed because Gov. Rod Blagojevich has allowed more than 3,000 clemency petitions to pile up on his desk. Two of the state’s most prominent prosecutors disagreed. […]
…DuPage County State’s Attorney Joe Birkett said it would free prisoners “without a hearing, without any input from the state, without any representation by the state’s attorney or the attorney general, without a process or procedure, simply a petition and certain findings made by the court.”
* More…
At a crowded hearing Wednesday, the Chicago police union chief and top local prosecutors blasted the bill. Cook County State’s Attorney Dick Devine warned of effects on relatives of murder victims.
DEVINE: This legislation would open up a whole new area of grief and concerns for these families who have already suffered so much.
* The question: Is this a good idea or not? Explain.
- paddyrollingstone - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:25 am:
I think its a terrible idea and I’m a criminal defense lawyer. A sentence is a sentence. Period. However, I would say that this legislation has ZERO chance of becoming law.
- VanillaMan - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:27 am:
==The measure is prompted by the huge backlog of clemency petitions awaiting action by Gov. Rod Blagojevich. It would allow inmates 50 years of age or older, who have served at least 25 consecutive years in prison, to petition the courts instead of the governor for early release, so along as they are not sentenced to death.==
So the reason we are discussing this has nothing to do with justice. It has nothing to do with fairness. It has nothing to do with protecting our communities. It has nothing to do with victim’s rights. It has nothing to do with remedying a wrong.
I read enough. A procedural problem should never jeopardize citizen safety or override our justice system. The justification for this does not take into consideration anything except a backlog.
Fix the backlog - don’t threaten our safety because of it!
- You Go Boy - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:36 am:
Vanilla Man has it right on…..
- Dan S. a Voter and Cubs Fan - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:39 am:
We do not need a new law, inforce the laws on the books. We need a Governor that will do their job. Currently the state of Illinois has a name filling that position not doing their job. IMPEACH NOW!
- Speaking At Will - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:39 am:
Amen to that VM!
- cermak_rd - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:41 am:
As long as the hearing allows victims, victim’s families, citizens, prison officials, the prosecutor’s office, et al to testify and be heard and it is conducted similarly to a parole hearing with all interested parties notified well in advance of said hearing, I would not have a problem with it as the process would alleviate concerns of public safety.
One reason it is in the state’s interest to do this is that it is expensive for the state to imprison older adults as they tend to have health problems and because the state is responsible for them, it has to pay for their care.
- Moderate Repub - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:44 am:
paddyrollingstone - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:25 am:
“However, I would say that this legislation has ZERO chance of becoming law”.
Really? So it would be strange to legislate around a Governor who can’t seem to do his job? It has a chance…..
- Ken - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:47 am:
Cermak-rd
Will be happy to all these folks relocated to your neighborhood.
- Ghost - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:49 am:
So I bilk people out of millions of dollars in retirmenet funds etc etc. I am punished by being required to spend the rest of my life in jail. But because I am a white collar cirminal, and can avoid the sentence and my punishment by seeking to be released at the age of 50.
Nice loophole, wait until your 40’s to commit major white collar crimes.
- Pat collins - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 11:50 am:
So, the ONLY reason we have this bill is that GB Rod has not kept up with the clemency petitions? Was this an issue with Gov. Crook or Gov. Edgar?
Maybe they can wait until a new Gov takes over?
- wordslinger - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:00 pm:
We can’t start passing laws because the current governor isn’t doing his job.
What’s Blago’s response to this?
Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.
- prowler - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:07 pm:
“It would allow inmates 50 years of age or older, who have served at least 25 consecutive years in prison”.
At whatever age you commit the crime, you must serve 25 consective years to be eligible. If your 40 when your sentenced for your white collar crime, you will not be eligible for this program till your 65.
- cermak_rd - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:08 pm:
Ken,
Actually my neighborhood does have a number of ex-offenders, as well as a miscellaneous collection of cretins and creeps, like most neighborhoods I’m sure.
Do you really think that a public process that I described, where the media could attend and report on the proceedings, and the public and victims et al could testify would result in dangerous people getting out of prison early? I have my doubts that any judge is going to want to go into retention with that on his resume.
- Ghost - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:08 pm:
yep, is nice though to have a built in sentence max of 25 years.
- prowler - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:14 pm:
nothing states 25 years is the max, only gives you the right to petition the court for release after 25 years, up to the courts to decide if you should be released.
- ChampaignDweller - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:18 pm:
We should not change any law just because the governor isn’t doing his job–if that’s the case, imagine how many laws we have to change.
- Belle - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:21 pm:
Bad idea. I can totally see victims of violent crime being terrified at the thought of their victimizer’s release. A lot of the recovery for victims and families rests with knowing where the offender is - and will stay.
- North of I-80 - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:22 pm:
Bypassing the judicial system to save pennies? The purpose of “corrections” isn’t to rehabilitate, it is to punish the wrongdoers and keep society free from these predators.
Whose side is this potential law helping? Certainly not the innocent victims or law-abiding tax payers…. it helps the predators, those who chose poorly and the elected officials who can’t manage a pocketbook. Pick a side to be on.
- Gregor - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:36 pm:
Cermack said:
“One reason it is in the state’s interest to do this is that it is expensive for the state to imprison older adults as they tend to have health problems and because the state is responsible for them, it has to pay for their care.”
Most likely, we STILL spend state money on them, except as unemployment and various social services programs, including medicaid and parole monitoring. I don’t buy economics as the excuse to overturn a sentence. And if the main excuse for the change is to work around Rod, well, that is a problem that’s going to solve itself sooner rather than later.
- South Side Mike - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 12:46 pm:
I’m all for punishing criminals, but let’s have a little perspective, shall we?
Clemency petitions are a real issue. For some cases, it’s the only way for release for wrongful convictions (DNA & other evidence mishandled or “lost”- which NEVER happens in Illinois). Second, there are 60 year old men sitting in prison for crimes committed when they were 17-18 year old immature punks. If they have been model prisoners, tried to educate themselves, and otherwise pose no harm to anyone (think Red from “Shawshank Redemption”), why shouldn’t they have a judicial clemency option? I agree with Cermak, load it with witnesses and testimony, a la parole hearings. Make it tough, but make it an option.
Some of you argue that you shouldn’t change a law simply because of Public Official A. I agree. However, if you look at past governor terms, they also leave office with a stack of dusty petitions on their desk. Let’s face it, clemency petitions (except for a select few) are never high on the list of governors’ to-do lists. 25 years is a long time for a court to be able to examine a prisoner’s record.
Finally, to North of I-80: Penal systems may have the goal of punishment. But “corrections” by its definition implies an attempts at rehabilitation. You may argue that it is a matter of semantics, but the difference is significant.
- Ken - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 1:00 pm:
Cermak
So, some liberal judge decides to let these people out. There is nothing we can do.
Remember this judge can do it in the last year of office, with no worry of retention.
Rod Blagojevich plain and simple is not doing his job and is pandering to the liberals.
HE is trying to deflect the discussion from himself.
- Freezeup - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 1:02 pm:
If you managed to earn a sentence longer than 25 years, you need to stay in prison.
By the way, show me a white collar criminal that is serving a long sentence. Bet there aren’t many.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 1:02 pm:
===Rod Blagojevich plain and simple is not doing his job and is pandering to the liberals.===
Um, the liberals are the ones who are upset.
Take a breath.
- BobW - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 1:42 pm:
Emotional reaction: Once again we have a problem created and exacerbated by a do-nothing, grand-standing absentee “governor” who resides on the north side rather than in Springfield. When will the voters wake up to what are the effects of keeping this nincompoop in office?
To the question at hand: The second best approach might be to appoint a special prosecutor to review and make recommendations to a court with an eye to consistency and potential threat to the public. The best approach would be a swift kick to the absentee governor’s posterior to get it in gear. How long can he spend combing his hair and appearing at photo opportunities?
- Vote Quimby! - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 1:50 pm:
==think Red from “Shawshank Redemption”==
…or the guy who ended up hanging himself because he couldn’t handle life as a ‘free man.’ I’m just saying what is going to happen to these men who have spent half their life in jail? Who is going to hire them? How will they support themselves? Even if the bill were approved, it will always be under the threat of just one Willie Horton away from being extinguished.
- Dan S. a Voter and Cubs Fan - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 1:53 pm:
BobW - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 1:42 pm: AMEN!!!
- Miranda - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 2:03 pm:
instead of a law to release them via the courts, how about a law that would make the governor do his job? right now, according to the rules in place, the governor has “no time limit to act on petitions”. trust me, I have gotten that response a thousand times in response to my father’s petition (he did one stupid thing as an 18-year-old 42 years ago, nothing serious). what if the GA were to pass a law that would set a time limit in which the governor has to act on them? I had a time frame in which I had to get stuff to the PRB by, etc., why not make them stick to a time frame as well?
- Levois - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 2:15 pm:
I knew someone would bring the Governor’s name into this.
Anyway I would have no problem with this providing that there is a hearing for the offenders and the conditions provided such as they must be over 50 serving 25 consecutive years in custody. And I wouldn’t just support this bill just because the governor is failing to do his job.
- the Patriot - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 2:18 pm:
I am tired of everybody blaming the whole mess on the Governor, although he a useless crook. The legislature is also not doing their job. We are going to try and fix the education funding problem through the courts because the legislature cannot find a solution. We are going to fix prison over population and clemency back logs because the Governor is behind, and the legislature won’t fund corrections. If the Governor is that bad, impeach him, if the legislature is that bad, vote them out. The public is too ignorant to vote out Madigan and his band of useless idiots, and Madigan won’t impeach the Governot and give Pat Quinn a running start at Lisa in 2010. We don’t need courts to fix the problem, we need voters to pay attention.
- Esteban - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 2:32 pm:
Why not put NON-violent offenders under “house
arrest” instead of sending them to prison?
They would have to feed themselves, provide
their own medical care, and put a roof over their
heads. The taxpayers would save a bundle and the
overcrowding of prisons would be eased.
- Anon - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 2:36 pm:
Why not just release those convicted of victimless crimes? Whose idea was it to incarcerate them anyway? That would greatly ease the burden on prosecutors, prisons and law enforcement and enable them to concentrate on crimes with victims.
- BandCamp - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 2:42 pm:
===Second, there are 60 year old men sitting in prison for crimes committed when they were 17-18 year old immature punks. ===
When I was 17 and 18, I knew murder was wrong. So I didn’t attempt it.
Murder is murder. 10 years ago, 100 years ago. And if you take a life, expect your life to be somewhat taken from you, one way or another.
I don’t agree the assesment that model prisoners, just because they are good behind prison walls will be good outside the prison walls. That is a leap. And you know it.
Real world and prison world are polar opposites.
- cermak_rd - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 3:09 pm:
Anon,
While I agree in principle that victimless crimes should not be brought to trial (and here, I’m thinking drugs cases and prostitution), in reality most of these cases that are brought to trial are for bad actors that a more serious charge is pending on or can’t be prosecuted. Like getting Al Capone for tax evasion.
- Don't blame me... - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 3:25 pm:
===The measure is prompted by the huge backlog of clemency petitions awaiting action by Gov. Rod Blagojevich. It would allow inmates 50 years of age or older, who have served at least 25 consecutive years in prison, to petition the courts instead of the governor for early release, so along as they are not sentenced to death.===
Petition the courts??? Like there isn’t a backlog there, too!
- M14MIKE - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 3:40 pm:
==think Red from “Shawshank Redemption”==
Let’s put that in perspective shall we?
He was an actor (Morgan Freedman sp?)and a good one at that. He was directed to appear harmless and good natured.
Do you believe this is the real result of years of incarceration? Try again, without the hollywood reference.
- M14MIKE - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 3:42 pm:
Oh yeah, let’s trust those Illinois judges too.
they have our best interest at heart…
- The Dude - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 4:11 pm:
Why not just make marijuana legal, free all prisoners convicted of non violent marijuana possession and/or distribution since it is now legal? I wonder how many prisoners would be released then? Imagine the tax revenue!
But back to the question. Bad idea. Bad, bad idea. I gotta agree with VanillaMan.
- Clown College Observer - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 5:20 pm:
A completely moronic idea. What intellectually-challenged D- law student comes up with this garbage?
As an former IDOC guard of over a decade, I can tell you that most anyone who has served 25 consecutive years or more is either a murderer, serial rapist / pedophile or a wholesale drug dealer. Just because it is named the Dept. of CORRECTIONS does not mean that any of us actually believe that inmates are incarcerated to correct their behavior. There is a reason that courts hand out Class X time to people - to prevent them from EVER being thrust upon society again.
Any lawmaker who supports garbage like this should be more than willing to move the ‘reformed’ hardened criminal into their personal dwelling just to further the cause.
In case someone doesn’t get it; long-time inmates are EXPERTS at manipulating the system and those too weak-willed to see through their games. Clemency petitions are just one way that inmates waste time; most are filed by jailhouse lawyers in exchange for commissary goods and other favors (a.k.a. jailhouse barter). Every inmate knows that such petitions fail about 99% of the time; most aren’t even given passing merit as they are so pathetic. Most people on the street who have no experience inside wouldn’t last one shift dealing with these individuals- even when they decide to put on their ‘parole face’.
How about we actually elect a governor who can do his job and a GA that will man-up instead of spitting on the victims of these predators? Super Rod can’t even work through the backlog of legislation on his desk without pulling out his AV crayon or his hairbrush to primp for the populist camera message of the day. If the GA actually had the testicular virility to do anything except curl up in the fetal position and cry instead of fixing the real problem (a governor who totally disregards legal process) it would be the news flash of the century.
Vanilla Man is right on the money today.
- L-Ron - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 5:35 pm:
Capital defense litigators generally oppose this bill for adults. Juvenile offenders, that’s a different question. They’re not eligible for the death penalty.
It is widely believed that the “Gaucho” instruction - natural life is the only alternative to a death sentence - saves clients lives.
Additionally, if you’re an abolitionist (I ain’t)natural life without parole is your mantra.
Cut me a loose, or gimme the juice!
- Sweet Polly Purebred - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 5:45 pm:
VM has it right on the money. The quote by Mr. Birkett was quite a nice touch of irony considering his little blunder in the Nicaraco case.
- trafficmatt - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 5:47 pm:
As the theme song from the 70’s show “Baretta” said (hint to Rich for a Friday song)
“Don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SivUT1×7j18
Hat Tip - Sammy Davis Jr.
- Black Ivy - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 6:02 pm:
Prison is supposed to rehabilitate inmates, even those who have committed the most egregious of crimes. I believe every person can be rehabilitated. Once the interests of victims and victims’ families are weighed against the time served, I think it very wise to consider releasing inmates. We need to move offenders through the system - we are running out of space!
- steve schnorf - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 6:17 pm:
I guess I think under our constitution convicted people have rights, whether some of you dislike that concept or not. It would seem to me that the current situation is sort of a “justice delayed” thing. They don’t have a right to a parole, either through the Gov, or under this proposal, through the courts. I think under law most of them have at some point a right to a hearing. Most of these must have had their hearing thru the Parole Board.
The Courts might be a better place than a governor for parole requests and recommendations to be decided. They know more about the law, criminal and otherwise, than most governors, and they have had some experience putting aside their own feelings and best interests and enforcing the law.
- Cassandra - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 6:28 pm:
Well, the alternative is for jails to become geriatric centers, I would imagine, filled with seventy and eightysomethings who can no longer function in society and therefore require assisted living or higher levels of care. Not cheap. Better to discharge them when they in their 50’s and 60’s and perhaps have a change at re-integration into
society than to have taxpayers plump for long-term residential assisted living and nursing care. Because that will be beyond expensive.
- Sweet Polly Purebred - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 7:35 pm:
All incarcerated people should have to pay something toward their health care. They earn money for working in different prison industries and each prisoner should have a percentage deducted and placed in an individual health care fund to help cover the cost of their medical care. If, when they are discharged, they have any balance in the account, it should be given to the prisoner.
- Clown College Observer - Thursday, Aug 21, 08 @ 10:08 pm:
===Prison is supposed to rehabilitate inmates, even those who have committed the most egregious of crimes. I believe every person can be rehabilitated.===
This, unfortunately, is a complete myth. Prison does not, in my experience, rehabilitate. There is some evidence that programs like Impact Incarceration (IIP) has some effect on young offenders if they are caught quickly enough but, as a whole, prison only hardens. Statistically speaking, sociologists estimate that the average convicted felon commits as many as 200 crimes in the course of a criminal career. Prisons serve to keep this violent criminal element away from society so as to keep their anti-social tendencies to a minimum. Remember, we are talking about serial and capital offenders, not check kiters and casual drug users. Hoping that a serial pedophile has been rehabilitated enough that he won’t re-offend is a fool’s errand at best.
===I guess I think under our constitution convicted people have rights, whether some of you dislike that concept or not.===
We already have a complete system in place for this. There is trial, sentencing according to specific guidelines, rules for MSR or parole, and a multi-layered appeals process. We do not need to grant even more opportunities to release potentially violent felons before their judicially mandated sentences have been served. I do agree that the Courts are a more appropriate venue than a governor’s desk.
===They know more about the law, criminal and otherwise, than most governors,===
Especially this one.
===Better to discharge them when they in their 50’s and 60’s and perhaps have a change at re-integration into society than to have taxpayers plump for long-term residential assisted living and nursing care. Because that will be beyond expensive.
I submit that what is truly expensive is the potential abduction and rape of a teenage girl, or the home invasion killing of an elderly citizen, because we were willing to gamble public safety for the nebulous goal of being kinder and gentler. One innocent life ruined or lost is too high a price to take the liberal high road and believe that reform actually works. Public safety is, in my estimation, one of the few services that government should actually be providing. If that means more prisons and guards and a few less donations to organic food banks and so-called churches in Chicago, so be it.
- fiscalscrooge - Friday, Aug 22, 08 @ 12:46 am:
Let’s face it, this is about money.
When we can’t pay for all of our children to have abasic education something has to give. This bill will save each and every man, woman and child in the state of Il, over $125.00 per year.
Money that should be spent on education to stop the runaway growth of our penal system. Money that should be spent for the public good is now diverted to health care for elderly prisoners.This bill has checks and balances so that it does not open the door for all that have served 25 years, it only allows SOME an opportunity to knock. The final decision would rests with the courts.
- Average citizen - Friday, Aug 22, 08 @ 5:35 am:
I’ve been studying the incarceration statistics in Illinois for 3 years. The courts in IL sentence an average of 250-plus people per year to sentences over 30 years (actual time to serve). More than half of these are serving Life or defacto Life sentences. Ten years from now the long term population will have increased by another 2500 inmates, the capacity of another prison. What’s the solution, do we just keep building prisons? It makes more sense to take the money that would go into the corrections budget and put into preventative measures. Work on these kids before they become criminals. I’d much rather have my hard earned tax dollars going to fixing today’s youth.
- bill ryan - Friday, Aug 22, 08 @ 7:50 am:
These are the basic questions at the heart of HB 4154. Can people change? Does it matter if they do? What is the purpose of long-term sentences–to protect the public? To punish the guilty? Both? When these fundamental goals have been successfully met, does continued imprisonment serve a moral or even legal purpose as our constitution says one of the goals of sentencing is to return the person to useful citizenship?
HB 4154 achieves the same end as clemency with two major distinctions. 1) a sentencing court not the Governor will make decisions. There are literally thousands of petitions for clemency submitted by the Prison Review Board (PRB) to the Governor. Noone other that the Governor and the PRB has the faintest clue what is included in the recommendations as they are confidential and there is no requirement the Governor do anything. 2) sentence adjustment under HB 4154 is dependent upon clean and demanding criteria.
Elderly sentence adjustment is not for everyone nor should it be. This is not a “get out of jail free card.” This legislation empowers a sentencing court to consider release for women and men who pose no threat to others and can demonstrate genuine behavior change.
I daresay there is noone in Illinois who has had more contact with men and women in prison than me during the past 15 years. This has taken place both in person, correspondence and as publisher of the prison newspaper Stateville Speaks. I know there are women and men who are changed human beings. I am smart enough to know why this occurs but know it when I see it. I do think sincere change occurs because of a belief in the worth of oneself, some sort of spirituality and the aging process. Age may be the most effective rehabilitatior of all.
Forcing elderly, reformed people, often with chronic and debilitating conditions to die in prison is costly ($70,000 per year) ignores the basic democratic principle that a democratic society should operate according to a rule of minimum restraint and does not comply with the Illinois constitution.
- bill ryan - Friday, Aug 22, 08 @ 7:55 am:
There is a typo in fifth sentence from the end of my post. Sentence should read I am not smart enough….I neglected to type the not sorry
- Anonymous - Friday, Aug 22, 08 @ 9:06 am:
If age is such an effective rehabilitator, it would seem that sentences for certain age groups would then be shorter overall to accommodate for that.
VMan’s got it.
- Ted - Friday, Aug 22, 08 @ 9:29 am:
The courts are a better place for clemency petitions to be heard. Less politics and more experienced people evaluating the requests. The courts are far from perfect, but are in the best position to weigh the risks and benefits to society. Looking at this Gov, what George Ryan did, and what Clinton did, I think the people of Illinois would have more confidence in the process if it was handled by judges.