59 Comments - JoePeoria - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 5:54 am: For those who don’t know, CME Group is the corporate parent of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME), Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT), and New York Mercantile Exchange. - Mary - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 6:42 am: Welp, actions have consequences. Thanks, IL democrats! - OneMan - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 7:31 am: What is becoming increasingly clear is that businesses don’t like to pay taxes no matter how much money they make. And that makes them different than the rest of us how? If people were so eager to pay taxes then the state would have passed the income tax increase before the election, instead of after. I don’t know about you but I am more than happy to take the deductions on my taxes offered to me and if a new one appeared that was targeted at me, I would take advantage of it. When I discover I overpaid my state taxes I am more than happy to take the refund. You might be the better person and say ‘nay, nay’ I will pass on the refund and will not take all the deductions I am entitled to because I want to help pay for X. Then good for you. - Allen Skillicorn - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 7:37 am: Ignoring attempts to streamline workers comp costs, medical tort expenses, and soaring pensions costs has deeply hurt the economic climate in IL. I understand IL has great people living here and has great infrastructure, but Springfield still has their head buried sand on the issues that matter to entrepreneurs and employers. - G. Willickers - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 8:03 am: Somebody has to make up the difference on the $150 million in corporate tax giveaways (and all the other millions given in bribe money to other corporations). The workers will have to carry that load either through higher personal & property taxes or significantly reduced services or, more likely, both. To OneMan’s point - no, nobody likes to pay taxes. Just like nobody likes paying for food at the grocery store or paying for clothes at the shop… One way or another though, we do end up paying for the things we use (whether the “we” is an individual citizen or a corporation). In this case, Indiana’s conservative governor is offering a corporation a chance to have other people pay for the things CME would be using; chiefly, the infrastructure, protection of its resources and assets, and education of it future workers. - wordslinger - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 8:09 am: I guess I can’t figure out what exactly would be moving. I suppose back office, processing and order fulfillment. But still, if trades are being made, even electronically, on floors that are in Chicago and New York, how do you avoid those state taxes? I’m sure members of those exchanges aren’t moving to Indy. - ChrisB - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 8:20 am: @truthteller, Elizabeth Warren, is that you? You sure hit all the talking points and didn’t say much of anything. I don’t see Indiana saying that the CME wouldn’t pay ANY taxes, they’d just pay less taxes, so they’d still fund all the things you listed. CME Group is a publicly traded company. Buy a couple shares and have some say on their executive pay. Otherwise, they are well within their rights to pay their executives as much as they want, however obscene you think the rate is. They would be poor managers (in both senses of the word) if they didn’t minimize costs. The CME has pretty much went all electronic, so their location is less important now than it was 20 years ago. If someone was offering to lower my costs $150 Million/year, I’d certainly consider the move. That being said, the human costs (moving the execs from the Western ‘burbs to Indy), the fact that they are considering a deal with Dow Jones and the S&P, and Quinn’s history of offering deals to large corps, I think they are going to sit on this one for a bit. - Cincinnatus - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 8:21 am: While I agree that Illinois has advantages over many states, Allen points out the very real facts many businesses face. These costs of doing business (in addition to taxes) are real, not perceived. These businesses that move feel them every day. Address them, and broaden and flatten and lower the tax, and we could see a reversal of this disturbing trend. We’ve tried the high cost, litigious way for many years, maybe it’s time to give the reverse a shot. - wordslinger - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 8:26 am: –Ignoring attempts to streamline workers comp costs, medical tort expenses, and soaring pensions costs has deeply hurt the economic climate in IL.– Yeah, those are big issues for CME — they’ve just never brought them up. CME, unlike most big Illinois corporations, pays a lot in state corporate income tax. They would like to pay less. - Left Out - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 8:42 am: One needs to keep in mind that the “CME pays 6% of the aggregate corporate taxes paid by Illinois companies — more than McDonald’s Corp. or Boeing Co.” according to Crains. If the CME moves out of state it will have a major impact on Illinois corporate tax collections. In addition, I was tuned to Primetime on RTE 1 last night. They were talking about the growth of Google along with other high tech companies and how low their effective tax rates are. They report that Google, who is about to take over Motorola Mobility here in Illinois, pays taxes at the average rate of 2.4% of its profits around the world. Motorola Mobility, accorting to the Chicago Tribune, has $1B in cash just sitting outside the US for tax reasons. Google too appears to using the tax laws around the world to pay as little as possible in taxes. The big question is how hard will this tax cutting impact the State of Illinois and those people who do pay taxes. - reformer - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 8:51 am: Allen The state Supreme Court keeps striking down the tort reform the legislature passes. Workers comp reform was killed in May by Cross and the Med Society. - steve schnorf - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 8:57 am: I don’t think I mind us losing a race to the bottom - Cincinnatus - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:02 am: Just because CME never used that rationale doesn’t mean it’s not valid. There are many influences in the “business climate” and there are different sets of them that affect different businesses differently. - western illinois - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:05 am: Put a tranaction tax on Illinois residents and any bank with an office here on all their speculative products. Illinois residents will lose less at that casino. Then allow the other casinos to open and cut other taxes. Manufacturers who expand or build something here here pay no income tax for instance. Let the speculators fund the real economy for a change! - Jimmy CrackCorn - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:12 am: I am having a hard time picturing these executives going from a porterhouse dinner at Gibson’s, to a 2-for-$20 meal at an Applebee’s in Fort Wayne. - 47th Ward - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:15 am: Was the CME’s creation as a publicly traded company several years ago the cause of this untenable tax situation? Or was it always an oppressed entity when it was a privately organized trading club? In other words, did they push for an IPO without realizing that, after the initial pay day, they’d be paying the high corporate tax rate instead of the individual traders paying taxes based on whether they won or lost in the market in a given year? I don’t know the particulars, but maybe they should have planned better for their new corporate world. But look for the price of courtside seats to Pacers games to spike. In addition to lower taxes and incentives, those big shot traders are going to love the housing market in Indy. - Ahoy - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:16 am: I wonder when all the State’s will stop going broke in the name of economic development… - Plutocrat03 - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:17 am: “Put a tranaction tax on Illinois residents and any bank…” Sure make the people who have to be here may even more taxes and fees to the state. That is simply a sprint toward the bottom in a different way. - JBilla - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:20 am: Fine with me. I’m not a big fan of most of the people that work there. Some are great people, but they aren’t the ones working on this move to Indiana, or Florida, or wherever. And now that they are mostly electronic they aren’t a big employer, mostly a tax drain. Let them leave and put a casino there instead. A casino there would mean better City and State revenue and an ideal location. Would be a hell of a theme too. - wordslinger - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:32 am: –Just because CME never used that rationale doesn’t mean it’s not valid. There are many influences in the “business climate” and there are different sets of them that affect different businesses differently. – But we’re talking about CME, whose issue is taxes and not torts, workers comp or pensions. Using the CME situation as a pulpit on those issues is just silly. It’s the same as the CAT freak show a few months back when all the commenters drew out of thin air that CAT was moving because of corporate income tax increase. Except CAT’s not moving. And they don’t pay state corporate income taxes. Not every situation is a Pavlovian signal to start drooling out the usual talking points. How about dealing with the real issues, instead? - dupage dan - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:36 am: Wealthy people/Corporations are a slippery lot. They are like everyone else - normal folk who don’t want to pay more and more taxes. Watch a school tax referendum and you’ll see. Everyone wants better schools in their community - they just want to have it for free - or have someone else pay for it. Raise the taxes too much and you’ll see people/businesses/corporations look for ways to avoid paying. It’s natural behavior. Add to that the inept corrupt state gov’t that is plain for all to see and you get an added effect. If folks could see the gov’t being open, efficient and honest then they may be more likely to shoulder the burden if/when things go bad. If you’all expect the smart folks who run these businesses to just bend over and take it with the higher taxes/corrupt gov’t, you are getting a primer on how the world works. The big corporations get a tax break or they leave. The small businesses - engines of our employment and economy - get the shaft. So, JBilla, you are fine with CME leaving cause you don’t like them? Sheeesh. You don’t have to like these folk - you need to get their revenues. Who cares if they’re nice? It’s not like you have to like with them, is it? - lincoln's beard - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:39 am: Nearly 150 years ago, in response to President Lincoln’s call for more troops to serve in the cause of freedom and union, the members of the Chicago Board of Trade sponsored and raised funds to muster three infantry regiments (the 77th, 88th, and 113th Illinois) and an artillery battery. These regiments proudly carried a flag into battle bearing the name of the Board of Trade. At that time, the CBOT was made up of good citizens with a sense of patriotism, loyalty, and responsibility. Now what have we got? A bunch of jackals fighting over scraps. Why don’t you just move to China, you jerks? That’s where the money is. - Fed up - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:44 am: The workers comp laws still need fixing and what a lot of corporations know is what Quinn has already floated that the tax increase isn’t going away. Pensions need to be fixed I agree we can’t harm the current workers but a lot more can be done to fix the states long term finances. Corporations will keep demanding tax breaks as long as states county city’s keep giving them. It is obvious that the CME has a point about their tax burden the system needs to be fixed. Good luck with that in an election year. - wordslinger - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 9:46 am: –Quinn has already floated that the tax increase isn’t going away.– It’s not his call. It will require another vote by the GA to continue it. There will be elections before then. - Anonymous - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:03 am: Is Daniels setting himself up for a Presidential bid, as Perry did, by buying big company relocations with tax dollars? The problem is that big companies get all the press, and therefore all the tax deals from politicians, while the tax burdens that are crippling us are mostly borne by smaller companies with nowhere to turn. And these much more numerous smaller companies are the key to our economic health and employment. - OneMan - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:06 am: Wow, find it interesting the level of love for the board and those who trade on it. For those who want to tax them out of existence in this state, you really want to chase all of the folks in that industry here away. All that income tax revenue as well as the brain drain that will occur (trust me the average education level in the financial sector you are targeting here is quite high). Someone puts a huge carrot in front of them and you don’t expect/want them to be interested? Really? If you keep letting various industries know you don’t like them or want them in this state don’t worry it will not be a problem for too long. - walkinfool - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:08 am: Anonymous 10:03 was me. - Ace Matson - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:14 am: Why is anyone surprised? I counsel national companies all the time, and when they ask me, I advise them to stay out of Illinois, for all of the reasons posted here. And the Illinois Dems are still taxing, spending, and regulating. - Senator Clay Davis - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:18 am: Businesses make decisions on more than just taxes. From a human resources standpoint, one of Chicago’s real strengths is its ability to attract talent because it’s a place that executives want to live. Indianapolis, just like most American cities, has a rotting urban core and suburban strip malls sprawling for miles and miles. A far cry from the metropolitan benefits that entice people to live in Chicago. - Plutocrat03 - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:27 am: Indy is large enough to offer most of the benefits of urban living, such as fine dining and theater. Additionally they have an international airport that is easy to get to and park at. You can also get real nice housing at a fraction of what it costs in Chicago. Don’t be so smug that cultured living can’t be done without living in Chicago. Frankly, I would not move a business into Chicago for any incentive. It’s simply not worth it. Cost of commute (time/money) lack of decent schools for employees to send their kids to….. - JBilla - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:29 am: Besides Gibsons, the Skyway tolls on the way to Gary Casinos, and the local BMW dealer, what economic benefit to Illinois are we talking about? All kidding aside, I don’t want them to go. I just want a tax structure that we can lock into for ten years, so that we don’t need to continue all these stop gap deals every couple years. CME got a sweetheart deal 4 or 5 years ago to buy CBOT. And they got that deal so they wouldn’t move. How many times do we need to bend over backwards for these guys? I guess once every 4 years isn’t that bad. Just annoying. - wordslinger - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:37 am: Pluto, Indy is a small town that doesn’t rate anywhere near Chicago as far as culture. That’s why when it’s longest-serving mayor, Bill Hudnut, left office he moved to Chicago. The next mayor, Steve Goldsmith, moved to New York when he was done. Both GOPers, by the way. That’s voting with your feet. Gov. Daniels spent most of his working career in New York and Washington before he started having White House dreams. And are you under the impression that Indy has a superior school system? Where did you get that? - Cal Skinner - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:37 am: It is obviously not just the Merc. I know of one 150-employee industrial company that has told its workforce that it is moving to Texas in 17 months. It is a union shop, but income taxes could be playing a role, too. From that I would assume that other companies might be planning moves, but not trying to extract government subsidies to stay. - anon sequitor - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:48 am: Rich, You need to create a futures contract trading service on key business issues like this. Buy/sell CME move. Buy/sell CAT stay. Etc. It could be a great revenue generator for your site. And don’t forget, the only good thing about paying taxes is it means that you are making money to start with. - Thoughts... - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:50 am: -And that makes them different than the rest of us how? - It doesn’t make them different than us at all. The difference is they have the wherewithal, clout and influence to extort tax breaks, loopholes, and other avoidance measures. You and I don’t have that ability, so every time a company does this, our tax burden gets more onerous or our services are cut. - Dooley Dudright - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:50 am: Move CME to Indy? Don’t think so. I speculate that Daniels&Co. are thinking Gary or Hammond or thereabouts. Anchor a “renaissance” there. All while keeping the Chicago brand. (Remember when Mike McCaskey was going the move the Bears to Gary, but not change the name? Until he got the oh-so-glorious Soldier Field makeover, of course.) By setting up shop just over the border, no one at CME really would have to move. They’d merely have to endure the commute. (Which, snark, snark, might just be the dealbreaker.) I agree with Schnorf: “I don’t think I mind us losing a race to the bottom.” - BIG R. Ph - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:51 am: So was the tax increase really worth it? The answer is a resounding NO. Once again, for all to hear, this country was founded on trying to avoid being taxed. The citizens will do WHATEVER they have to in order to avoid what they feel is an unfair tax. Illinois is not an island that is 500 miles away in the ocean. We have to be competitive in ALL operations. This includes taxes, workmen’s comp, our debts etc. etc. You cannot tax your way to prosperity. We have a budget of $54 Billion. We do not have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem. We must reform the penion abuses that have caused and are continuing to cause our problems. We have to reform our entitlements. Namely Medicaid. We have 2.5 million recipients on the dole and an administration that fully believes that 100% of those recipients are supposed to be on that program. Wake up people!!! - wordslinger - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 10:54 am: –Once again, for all to hear, this country was founded on trying to avoid being taxed.– LOL, come again? - CircularFiringSquad - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 11:13 am: Let’s try to focus on the fat cats from Lake Forest, etc hauling their rears to Indiana every day….no epxress trains. Duffy may move some warehousers but the dudes who throw the real cash around ain’t moving - Team Sleep - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 11:30 am: I hate paying taxes. My parents hate paying taxes. Most of my friends hate paying taxes. Even my Democrat wife hates paying taxes. Why should a small business, large corporation, single physician practice or LLC want to pay more taxes? I agree that businesses should pay something because “they” utilize our public universities, roads and social services, but I certainly understand the perspective of a business owner who feels the business climate in Illinois is stifling and uninviting, whether it be to expand/add jobs or even just stay open. And many politicians in Illinois seem more hell-bent on protecting themselves, public employees and pet projects than pushing a climate in which businesses and workers can thrive together. - Team Sleep - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 11:36 am: If Matt Blunt were still Missouri’s governor, they too would try to poach CME for St. Louis’s fairly vibrant downtown economic district. - Rich Miller - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 11:38 am: ===St. Louis’s fairly vibrant downtown economic district. === Um, huh? - Aldyth - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 11:45 am: And when those tax credits run out, the company will move onto the next state that offers it a free ride. - late to the party - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 11:51 am: I have a question. How much did CME pay in corporate taxes last year? Would matching the $150 million in tax incentives be worth it? Also, does the tax rate really matter? If they were paying half the rate, why wouldn’t they still shop around to save $150 million? My cell phone bill hasn’t increased in years (except the taxes) but I still call every year to try to get it reduced. It’s the prudent thing to do. - spartanmeg - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 11:58 am: I wonder if Rahm will step in. Indiana is an armpit. If it weren’t, nobody would live in Chicago/Illinois burbs. Everyone would live in Hammond and commute to Chicago. Another question…perhaps there is some political game playing with “If you take CME, we build a downtown casino ASAP.” Who would ever go to Horseshoe?! - 47th Ward - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 11:59 am: ===I hate paying taxes.=== Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die. While Indiana, Texas, New Jersey, Wisconsin and others compete against Illinois in basically a zero sum game, India, China, Brazil and Russia are laughing all the way to the bank. States shouldn’t be poaching each other’s businesses with tax incentives, they should be trying to create climates where companies can compete in the global business arena. We need to break down barriers to interstate cooperation, not continue to build them up. It’s a global economy now, and we’re still behaving like it’s a national economy. We’re all in this together and it’s past time our state governments figured this out. Schnorf was right (again), this is a race to the bottom. I want no part of it. - John Galt - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 12:07 pm: -“CME pays 6% of the aggregate corporate taxes paid by Illinois companies — more than McDonald’s Corp. or Boeing Co.” -’They report that Google, who is about to take over Motorola Mobility here in Illinois, pays taxes at the average rate of 2.4% of its profits around the world.’- Is this true? Did all you ’spirit’s of revenge’ read those quotes or just gloss over? Has anyone ever known anyone who spends ‘all and more’ no matter how much more money they make? Ask yourselves if that is the dynamic we have in Illinois. If the answer is yes, then paying more taxes is immoral. I have to ask myself, ‘do the people and businesses of Illinois really not pay enough taxes or are the current level of taxes too often stolen, gambled away, or misappropriated?’ What do you think the answer is my fellow people of Illinois? - so... - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 12:10 pm: ==Nearly 150 years ago, in response to President Lincoln’s call for more troops to serve in the cause of freedom and union, the members of the Chicago Board of Trade sponsored and raised funds to muster three infantry regiments (the 77th, 88th, and 113th Illinois) and an artillery battery. These regiments proudly carried a flag into battle bearing the name of the Board of Trade. At that time, the CBOT was made up of good citizens with a sense of patriotism, loyalty, and responsibility. Now what have we got? A bunch of jackals fighting over scraps. Why don’t you just move to China, you jerks? That’s where the money is. == You’ve got to be kidding me. You’re accusing CME of being unpatriotic because they’re examining their options? I’ll repeat it again because it bears repeating - CME, ONE COMPANY, accounts for roughly 6% of all state corporate tax collections in Illinois. They’d be fools not to be talking to Mitch Daniels. We brought this on ourselves, by electing successive waves of politicians who spent this state into the poor house, and then eliminated one of Illinois’ few selling points to the business community by raising taxes. Don’t be mad at CME. Be mad at Pat Quinn and the leadership in Springfield - JBilla - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 12:16 pm: 47th Ward, BULLSEYE. “States shouldn’t be poaching each other’s businesses with tax incentives, they should be trying to create climates where companies can compete in the global business arena.” This fighting for scraps is a self destructive game for State Governor score boards. While a graduate student with a self healing wire or a new solar panel can only get calls back from companies in China, the old guard just pushes money around in a shell game and eyes surrounding states with baffling paranoia. These jobs are heading abroad, and so is the tax money, for reasons that are complementary, but not the same. Cheaper work force AND lower taxes. And in some cases, less regulation. Not to say we want those environmental disasters anymore than we want lower wages or tax free corporate churches, but lets have the conversation of what would bring the jobs and factories we want here and keep them here for a long time. - Anon - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 12:52 pm: CME, while a public company is still run by a group of insiders with extensive Chicagoland ties. They are not relocating their families/lives/etc. to Indiana. What I could see is relocating some aspect of the business to northwest Indiana for tax reasons. Maybe Chicago will finally get some use out of the money Chicago throws at the Gary airport through the Chicago-Gary airport agreement. Employees could all still live here. Tax credits that will expire are not the solution because future exec board members are likely going to be less tied to Chicago and more responsive to shareholder demands. I hate to say, but as an international company we probably do need to look at restructuring the way they pay taxes. - Going nuclear - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 1:10 pm: Like many others have said, I would prefer that our Midwest political leaders stop the poaching attempts and instead work together on an economic development initiative for the region. There is no long term value in fighting over CME and others that want to pit one state against another. - Team Sleep - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 1:19 pm: Rich - St. Louis has a large banking and financial advice/investment district. Edward Jones is based in St. Louis. Scottrade, Bank of America and Regions all have large offices and staffs in St. Louis. There is a Federal Reserve Bank in St. Louis. St. Louis itself is not that vibrant, but they have maintained a healthy financial district. - Ghost - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 1:33 pm: Let em go. Whats the point of keeping buisness if the tax breaks wipe out the benefit of having them local. Indianna is a great place for work…if you want to earn minimium wage. - Anonymous - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 2:12 pm: Well said, Nuclear. However, it’ll be mildly interesting to see how much of a role all of the “cultural” attractions into which the City of Chicago–and taxpayers–invested heavily will play in situations like this. I’d argue that “culture” is not an anchor or huge consideration for many CEOs and their primary decisionmakers. While there’s an obvious group you can always find in the “mass media” society pages, there’s also a group who seem to feel that philanthropic work can be done just as well, and usually more quietly (different values), from their own homes or a country club. (Note all of the CEOs who are not regulars or are never found in the well-known society pages.) Furthermore, the latter group seem to enjoy leaving the privacy of their own homes to travel to the “cultural” events they enjoy, so distance isn’t a factor for them. They can do what they do from just about anywhere. And as some said on a thread from yesterday, the companies usually go where the CEO wants to live–and for some, the “glitz” of the City doesn’t always seem necessary when other factors are considered. - mokenavince - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 2:29 pm: Wordslinger got it right. We will just keep losing business unless workers comp and taxes are cut Quinn don’t get it. And he never will. - Anonymous - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 2:36 pm: If you’re referring to word’s 10:37, mokenavince, he’s talking about politicians and “culture”. Not CEOs and their decisionmakers. Usually different “breeds”. - wordslinger - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 2:51 pm: Vince, I don’t think that was me, but thanks. Look, I don’t dispute that state regulatory and tax policy are costs of doing business, but I don’t believe they’re dealbreakers at all. I spent a few years looking out my old office window as hundreds of ironworkers, carpenters, electricians, plumbers et. al. dismantled the old Sun-Times building (good riddance) and built Trump Tower. All this lending, all this investment, all this business in Illinois terrible business climate. - Jim - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 2:59 pm: DOes anyone know the details of the TIF money given to CME? Sometimes there are guarantees by the company to stay in Chicago and employ so many people, although it is probably not enforceable. - Anonymous - Friday, Sep 30, 11 @ 3:10 pm: I’ll argue, too, that maybe the City and the State would be better off overall if we went back to the old days, where investments in cultural “attractions” were not as important as investments in people and their communities (there’s a fine line there). Epcot is not Main Street USA. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.