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Question of the day

Wednesday, Jan 30, 2013

* The new concealed carry bill pushed by the NRA requires four hours of training to obtain a license to carry a concealed weapon. The instruction includes

(A) handgun safety in the classroom, at home, on the firing range, and while carrying the firearm;
(B) the basic principles of marksmanship;
(C) care and cleaning of handguns;
(D) laws relating to the justifiable use of force.

The proposal also requires that the applicant prove s/he has

passed a live fire exercise with a handgun consisting of: (1) a minimum of 30 rounds; and (2) 20 rounds from a distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 15 yards at a B-21 silhouette or equivalent target as approved by the Department.

* The Question: Is four hours of training and 30 rounds fired to obtain a concealed carry license sufficient, or should it be more, or less? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please. Also, stick closely to the topic at hand or you’ll be deleted.


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- Posted by Rich Miller        


69 Comments
  1. - SO IL M - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:01 pm:

    Sufficient. No training as some will suggest is not reasonable when getting a Bill passed in this State. I do believe that you should have to show some competence in Gun Safety and Laws. The only question I have, and it may be that I didnt read the bill close enough, is will the range portion apply to only the weapon you qualify with, or for any that you might carry? Will you need to reqaulify in order to carry a different handgun than you used at that time?


  2. - Susiejones - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:03 pm:

    30 rounds fired is sufficient, I believe. I do think, though, that more than 4 hours of classroom type training is needed. Hunter safety classes are 8 hours (I think), so maybe there are options that could be developed that include 4 hours training if you have a hunter safety card, but 8 hour training if you haven’t been through hunter safety. Hunter safety cards are needed if you were born before a certain year, so many hunters (including myself) have not been through the class. Nothing wrong with refresher on any of this. I know not everyone, perhaps the majority, who want to apply for conceal carry are hunters but are target shooters or experienced gun owners, but like I said, nothing wrong with refresher courses.


  3. - Quinn T. Sential - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:04 pm:

    More training is necessary and the live firing proficiency demonstration is insufficient as well. Think about the driver training to operate a motor vehicle; including hours, and profciency in a road test to obtain your first drivers license at 16.

    One thing missing also appears to be training on how to clean; store, and safely transport your weapon under the law.

    Perhaps Senator Trotter may have benefitted from an increased level of training in the transport module.


  4. - Media Guy - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:05 pm:

    More than sufficient. NY Times has an article today which reveals more guns come to Chicago from Mississippi than from downstate Illinois. Do we think owners of those guns will take safety classes?

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/29/us/where-50000-guns-in-chicago-came-from.html


  5. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:07 pm:

    If 30 rounds is enough for Law enforcement its enough for CCW.

    Will someone with no firearms experience pass that test the first time? maybe, but most likely not.

    But you should qualify this that Illinois LEOs only have to fire 30 rounds for their qualification and at some shorter distances.


  6. - Wensicia - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:08 pm:

    I think it’s sufficient, but should be repeated every few years during license renewal. I suppose the bill will say this is a one time training.


  7. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:09 pm:

    Wensicia, the proposed law requires you re-qual for your renewal.


  8. - sam m - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:09 pm:

    4 hours is not enough.Possibly use a pre class test to demonstrate present knowledge,and exempt some from areas of training.But 4 hours doesn’t give time for proper take down and cleaning,[scene of many accidental discharges] significant review of legal responsibilities etc.Doesn’t have to be all at one time [modules] and it doesn’t need to be extremely expensive.There are police officers and retirees who are looking to get rich on this,just as the alcohol counselors profited greatly from DUI emphasis .A reasonable standard could be set.


  9. - OneMan - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:12 pm:

    At least 2 days and 60 rounds.


  10. - Sunshine - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:12 pm:

    Sufficient for ex-military and others with proven weapons proficiency such as officers of the law.

    Might consider grandfathering in anyone with weapons training within the past four years.


  11. - Steve Williams - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:14 pm:

    Four hours is enough time to teach opportunity, intent, and capability elements to use deadly force. 30 rounds is a little light to determine the competency with a firearm. Maybe for a renewal but initial qualification should probably be higher.


  12. - Sunshine - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:14 pm:

    Well, I should be careful regarding “officers of the law” after that fiasco in New York with the cops shooting everyone around the perp.


  13. - elginkevin - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:16 pm:

    I don’t see how an instructor would cover the material given 4 hours. I’m thinking more like 16. The NRA Basic Pistol class is, I think, 10 hours.


  14. - Deep South - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:17 pm:

    They should probably get lessons on buying liability insurance….or at least understand what will happen to them should their weapon injure or kill someone…regardless of the situation. Accidents happen…through negligence and other factors….a concealed carrier could find him or her self in a world of financial hurt just because they feel to the need to be protected against some imaginary boogy man.


  15. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:17 pm:

    Setting an arbitrary time here in comments is silly. Like “must be 4 hours” or must be 2 days and 60 rounds…

    What is taught in the 2 days? or the 4 hours. That model of designing a class is completely backwards. “Well here is how long I want it to take, you fill it up!”

    They are not going to shoot for 8 hours. Believe me. Instead the training (as is noted above and in the bill) denotes the areas / topics that must be taught. That is how you determine how long a class is. And most of the NRA suggested training listed in the bill is at least 4 hours and some 8 or more.

    If you think it needs to be longer, what would you put in it? (this just coming from a guy who taught a lot of basic weapons classes in the service)


  16. - Wensicia - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:19 pm:

    It does say you have to pass the live fire exercise. I assume you’d be denied if you didn’t.


  17. - Huh? - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:21 pm:

    In Illinois, hunter safety courses are required for those born on or after 1-1-1980. The 8 hour course included passing a mandatory written test.

    I agree that if you have been through a hunter safety coourse and can produce the card, then a reduced training period is ok. Should include a minimum shooting requirement.


  18. - 3rd Generation Chicago Native - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:22 pm:

    8 hours for hunter safety…I did not know that.

    That made me say needs more time since you will be out in the general population, and not in the woods or other less densely populated area hunting with 8 hours.

    I know a lot of my cop friends saying the laws are what is complicated. You can’t provoke, or threaten that you are armed, you have to be in absolute imminant life threatening danger to discharge your weapon, otherwise you will have more legal issues than you would imagine.
    I hope there would be a test at the end so that it shows you understand the laws.


  19. - Cheryl44 - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:22 pm:

    More training please. It doesn’t all have to happen at once.


  20. - Tobor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:31 pm:

    Get a foid. Buy your first handgun and all you need is 4 hours training! Delusional.


  21. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:34 pm:

    Tobor,
    do you actually have a suggestion? or just have no ideas about guns, or training and just want to say that we are delusional?


  22. - the Patriot - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:37 pm:

    8 hours of safety for a hunting license is mostly directed at kids. A 7 year old can pass gun/hunting safety in 8 hours a 21 year old should be able to pass up conceal and carry in 4.

    I will also say that gun and hunting safety is something is confirmed in a course, but should be taught at home. As a hunter and gunowner we have the primary responsibility for safety. The state should only have to confirm what we have taken time to learn at home or teach our kids.

    The 15 yards surprises me. A police officer can correct me, but I thought most law enforement officers only qualify at 7 yards. I don’t have a problem making the public pass the same test, but it should not be harder.

    I can’t speak statewide, but most of the people I know who will carry are already better shots than most law enforcement officers. Nothing personal to those in uniform, but they rarely get practice because of budget issues. Unlike people who view this as a hobby who may shoot two or three times a month, most officers get once a quarter if they are lucky.


  23. - How Ironic - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:42 pm:

    I think that it’s adequate. 30 rounds sounds ‘easy’ especially if you have never fired a real firearm, or only practiced in front of your XBOX.

    I have shot thousands of rounds and would most likely pass the markesman portion quite easily.

    I have taken several novice shooters with me to the range. Even at 7 yards, it is not unusual for them to miss the target completly, many times for an entire clip.

    Shooting a gun is easy. Shooting a gun accurately takes a lot of practice.

    Anyone that thinks they can get a FOID, buy a gun and take 30 shots (assuming this is their first time shooting) on target under pressure is kidding themselves.

    That’s my opinion.


  24. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:42 pm:

    The Patriot,

    LEOs in Illinois have to shoot at 15 yards also, BUT… they shoot more rounds at 5 yards and 7 yards. And if they hit all 5 yards and 7 yard shots they have achieve 70% and can pass without ever shooting 15.

    In this case a CCW will have to shoot 15. Just using distance here, the CCW is harder than the LEO tests:

    here is the reference for that:
    From the FAQ for the Illinois Law Enforcement training standards board:
    http://www.ptb.state.il.us/faq.htm
    Dig down to the fireamrs there is a link to the standard course of fire:
    http://www.ptb.state.il.us/pdf/AdmRulesAnnualFirearms.pdf


  25. - Sgt Schultz - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:42 pm:

    More training! The Motorcycle Safety Education Program is a 2-day program that includes classroom and on-course training. Certainly those of us who have grown up with firearms and are experienced with gun handling may not need that much training; however, there are going to be plenty of knuckleheads who will want a concealed-carry permit just for the “power” of it. Lord help us.


  26. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:48 pm:

    Sgt Schultz

    The Motorcycle safety course is not a good analogy. You can go to the Sec. of State’s office without taking that class and test out and get your motorcycle license. I know, I did it BEFORE I took the class. The class was a nice refresher on a few things, but is NOT required.

    Here again, there is a shooting test and MINIMAL training.


  27. - Quinn T. Sential - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:52 pm:

    {Shooting a gun is easy. Shooting a gun accurately takes a lot of practice.}

    Exhibit 1: South side and Wild West sides of Chicago.

    The collateral damage of innocent victims; especially children tells you all you need to know about proficient handgun marksmanship.

    Despite plenty of practice, far too many members of “The Gang That Can’t Shoot Straight”


  28. - Ahoy! - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:53 pm:

    The training hours should be at least what police offers have to have to carry a weapon in public, at least the gun portion. Of course, maybe police should have higher requirements as well. Additionally, the hours trained should be the first part, there should be stringent requirements of passage and certification. This shouldn’t be as easy as just buying time like the lobbyist ethics exam.

    The rounds shouldn’t matter as much since I would hope we would not allow guns that can fire 30 rounds to be carried around in public places. I say all this still fully opposed to allowing people to carry hidden weapons.


  29. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 1:58 pm:

    4 hours is enough training. I suspect most folks who apply will have some experience already. Firing a gun at the test when you have never fired a gun before would be foolish. I wonder how many folks would pass after the first show went wild?


  30. - Anon - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:00 pm:

    4 hours is enough. You can certainly teach all the basics and even get into the intermediate/advanced stuff in that period.

    The range requirement is enough as well. A vast majority of individuals who get permits don’t do this training and then are done- they will hit the range constantly. Personally, I wouldn’t carry a weapon until I had put 750-1000 rounds in it and felt extremely comfortable.


  31. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:01 pm:

    Ahoy says:
    ===I would hope we would not allow guns that can fire 30 rounds to be carried around in public places.===

    Ummm the 30 round test is at 2 or 3 different distances to test proficiency.

    and, my Concealed carry setup with have 46 rounds, 15+1 in the pistol, and 2 spare mags. Number of rounds is not part of this conversation, only how many shots you get to make during the shooting the test.


  32. - Ken_in_Aurora - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:01 pm:

    I would prefer to see 8 hours and 100 rounds, but I’m probably in the minority amongst CCW proponents.


  33. - wishbone - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:05 pm:

    It seems sufficient, you have to be careful not to create a “poll tax” that discriminates against people because of their race or income. It is a civil right after all. Of course Fr. Flager, J.J., and Mayor Rham (of course, my kids’ school has armed security) Emanuel recognize only the parts of the Constitution they agree with. They share that approach with members of the tea party.


  34. - Sgt USMC - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:08 pm:

    For those of you refering to the Hunter safety class. I took my kids to the class there was less than 4 hrs on weapon safety. Most of it had to do with proper game taking i.e. permit markup, seasons, even rudimentary tracking etc. 4 hours is reasonable for a standard test. I believe it was pulled off of the LEO qualifications. Just FYI this is harder than the Crap D.O.C. uses and they carry in public. I agree with my fellow Marine that 4 hrs won’t teach you to be a crack shot but it will be enough to fail you and suggest that you take a more in depth class with more practice. BTW military who are retired, Honorably discharged, or active duty and who have a combat MOS are considered trained.


  35. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:09 pm:

    Ken, I dont believe there is a minimum number of “practice” rounds. The 30 rounds is the test you must hit at 70%

    So a good class would probably have several courses of fire, allowing the instructor to watch the shooters. make adjustments as needed, then move onto the test portion. There is the 30 rounds.


  36. - CarrollCounty - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:09 pm:

    seems reasonable.

    many states are classroom only. my range in NW IL held a utah/florida ccw class with classroom only training recently, and those are reciprocal to lots of states, so this would represent a relatively high standard since it includes range training.


  37. - Tobor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:15 pm:

    USMCJanitor, delusional was my polite response to what is a idiotic idea.


  38. - Mark - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:20 pm:

    The number of hours necessary to effectively train depends entirely on the curriculum at hand.

    You can’t reasonably say “4 hours isn’t enough” until you identify specific material that was rushed or not covered.

    Similarly you can’t say “4 hours is too much” unless you can point to specific curricular content that was unnecessary.

    But either way, the important thing is this: The depth and breadth of content should dictate the class time, not vice versa.


  39. - one day at a time - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:23 pm:

    The NRA Basic Pistol Course can be taught in as little as 10 hours, including shooting range time….Home Firearm Safety Course in 4 hours but it does not include actual shooting).. and the FIRST Steps Pistol Course in 3 hours ( no shooting either).
    I vote for a 10+ hour program and 50 rounds range practical.


  40. - Bob - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:25 pm:

    The minimum should be at least 16 hours. I am a very strong advocate of concealed carry. But I feel that at least eight hours should be spent on the legal ramifications on the use of a firearm! I would want everyone who is carrying a firearm to know, they could end up in prison if they use it illegally! Four hours on safety and how to properly operated a handgun. Then four hours on the range, marksmanship, the proper way to carry a firearm and dangers of carrying concealed. After your initial background check and training,re-qualification on the range every three years. We can’t just let someone get a FOID, buy a handgun, shoot a target, get a permit. I know some people would be more proficient than the instructors, but the average Joe needs training.


  41. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:29 pm:

    Bob,

    “Four hours on safety and how to properly operated a handgun”

    in the classroom, not even on the range here. I would like to see the text book for that/ 4 hours of lecture and show and tell on operation and safety of a standard handgun. You would be done in an hour or so.

    Think about when you are teaching a class, just throwing out numbers is silly. Like 8 hours on the law… 8 hours? Think about that a standard junior college class that meets 2 hours a week that is 4 weeks of material…


  42. - Wolverine - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:35 pm:

    My child had to have 50 hours of driving practice to get her license but lets only have 4 hours to get a concealed carry permit? Thats not realistic. You have to take a 4 hour safety class after getting a moving violation to make sure it doesn’t go on your record. It should be a two day course, minimum.


  43. - USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:38 pm:

    Wovlerine,

    again what is taught in your arbitrary 16 hours?


  44. - Fan - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:51 pm:

    You sure can tell the anti-CCW Folks even if they don’t say so. Four hours of class time is an arbitrary number, not knowing what is going to be covered. If the requirements were done in logical steps by the applicants, class time could be minimized. You should have an option to CLEP to the shooting proficiency portion. If a gun range owner could give you a certification slip that you shot X amount of rounds in the past three months, you should just have to prove you a degree of accuracy at the distances and be done with it. I do think that going over when would be a bad time to shoot is a good idea.

    For the Anti’s in the crowd, just because your are carrying doesn’t mean you are going to use it in a bad situation. Walking in on a convienence store robbery, my instinct would be to turn around and wall out ASAP. Walking into an active shooting situation, would dictate a need to start your defense now. Too many variables to be considered given the little info leading to the poll question. But, I opted for Yes.


  45. - RNUG - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:53 pm:

    Seems sufficient, especially because most people will already have some experience with weapons. If you’ve had a FOID for many years, it’s pretty likely you know how to safely handle, use, and maintain firearms.

    Most of the concern in these comments seems to be about someone who would just go get a FOID and a CCW without prior experience. Maybe there should be a higher training standard for a CCW applicant who is also a first-time FOID applicant or who has held a FOID for less than a year or two (unless the already mentioned military or LE experience exists).


  46. - G.I. Joe - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:53 pm:

    4 hours are not enough. As many have said, it depends on each person’s experience. When I went through basic part-time police training in the 80s it was 24 hours and six hundred rounds, part of which was 25 yards, a little extreme for civilian carry. 7 and 15 yards is good, but should include some as close as one (1) yard. You are more likely to be close-up and personal than 15 yards.


  47. - Irish - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 3:23 pm:

    I am not an anti gun person, however I voted more training. I have one question. Are the CC permits specifically for one particular firearm? If they are I still believe more training is needed. And if the permits can cover any permittable gun then training should cover all guns. I wouldn’t want a person who has been permitted using a single action revolver to be able to pick up a semi automatic pistol and be able to carry it. If permits cover any firearm then training should cover all guns and you are not going to do that properly in 4 hours.

    I personally would like to see training in the area of identifying targets. I think persons who are permitted to carry firearms should pass a qualification where random targets pop up in front of you and you have to identify good from bad. After all that is going to be as important as proficiency. These folks are carrying for their own safety and the safety of others. They ought to be able to correctly identify a bad guy and be able to hit him if the innocent people around them are going to survive.


  48. - Todd - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 3:26 pm:

    The 4 hours is an equivilancy.ost of the courses listed are longer.

    But it would allow the Chicago Firearms Permit classes to qualify.

    It is a right. and as such, think of it this way to those who don’t like it; how much civics class should a person take in order to be able to vote?


  49. - Fan - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 4:19 pm:

    No to the identifying targets training. We (at least me) is not trying to act like we are a sworn police officer. My first inkling in a bad situation would be to flee. I’m not looking to acquire targets I’m trying to protect me and my family. And the comparison to kids and driving is not real close. A gun is a pretty simple tool. Deciding to shoot I’m self defense is a yes or no. Driving, hundreds of decisions are made every few minutes. Speed up, slow down, change lanes, signal first, you get the idea.


  50. - Tequila Mockingbird - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 4:23 pm:

    4 hours is enough. I already have a permit that is honored in all neighboring states and I would rather not have to pay to take the Illinois training but I will. As a former competitive shooter I have no concerns about qualifying. And I agree with Todd about how no training is required to vote, but then again, look at what we have elected…


  51. - CCW - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 4:53 pm:

    “more training needed” ~ personally, we try to take a safety/range course annually. Annual training is the key for me. Practice, annual training at any class (hunting, safety, etc.)and common sense works for us. Costs of trainings are relatively low thank goodness and don’t feel annual classes of some sort should be required. Just my two cents.


  52. - CCW - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 4:55 pm:

    oops…”DO FEEL” annual classes should be required.


  53. - Ken_in_Aurora - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 4:57 pm:

    “USMCJanitor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:09 pm: Ken, I don’t believe there is a minimum number of “practice” rounds. The 30 rounds is the test you must hit at 70%”

    Good point - I didn’t think of that. If that’s the qual portion, it should be good.

    “Tobor - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 2:15 pm: USMCJanitor, delusional was my polite response to what is a idiotic idea.”

    So CCW supporters are idiotic? As my good friend in Atlanta would say, “bless your heart.”


  54. - Just The Way It Is One - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 4:58 pm:

    These are guns. Guns kill and maim. Safety comes first. More training needed and passing a demanding written test with a high percentage and re-taking it until you KNOW the right answer.


  55. - ParisIllini - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 5:25 pm:

    It depends on what the course syllabus is about. As an aside, I am doing a CCR training course in about two weeks that is an 8 hour saturday course including shooting range time. 4 hours may be adequate for an experienced gun owner, 8 hours may not be enough for a newbie, but it is difficult to write a training paragraph in a bill given that there are all levels of experience involved. 4 to 8 hours is likely an adequate range of time involved. Of course, everyone should spend time at a range on a regular basis to maintain competency.


  56. - Fan - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 5:30 pm:

    This is where common sense debate starts to fall apart. The question as written was decent, but left out variables that made it a tough answer to fit in the three choices. I see some common sense suggestions from what appear to be pro-gunners. Then I see some unreasonable suggestions from anti-gunners. Try and look at the question objectively. This is not a wish list. Illinois is one of the toughest states to get a gun, not even counting Chicago. This is gonna happen in Illinois. Don’t muck it up with requirements that exceed what law enforcement does already. IL-NRA doesn’t have to agree with much of this at all. It is going to happen. Offer something good, not unreasonable.


  57. - RNUG - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 5:40 pm:

    Interesting that a lot of people aren’t explaining their opinion. Over 400 votes and only 50 some comments.


  58. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 5:47 pm:

    RNUG, we usually get about 5-10 times as many votes as comments. Not too unusual.


  59. - mongo - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 5:59 pm:

    More than 4 is needed.

    My goodness a babysitting class is 4 hours or more.

    Defensive driving courses are 8 hours.

    A respite worker gets 12 to 16 hours in training.

    A person able to carry a weapon should have much more than those three, much more certainly than 4 hours.


  60. - one day at a time - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 6:30 pm:

    OK we are contemplating what 49 other States have accomplished in varying forms. On the side of caution and common sense, look at those States that have CCW programs which require BOTH classroom and range time. Steal the best from those, develop a standardized training program, emphasizing safety, shooting capability and legal ramifications of firearms issues. Classroom and practical application for the “adult” learner!


  61. - steve schnorf - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 6:31 pm:

    Perhaps they should shoot one magazine full. Then we can decide how much experience they need and how large magazine capacity should be in one fell swoop.


  62. - Precinct Captain - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 7:50 pm:

    Nice try Media Guy, but let’s do some basic math.

    There were 22k guns seized that came from Illinois. There were 4.3k that came from Mississippi. 15k of the 22k in Illinois came from Cook County. That leaves 7k from the rest of the state meaning that as many (or even more) guns could come from downstate than from Mississippi.


  63. - Precinct Captain - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 7:56 pm:

    Four hours of training for guns? We require 50 at minimum for our teens to drive. Both guns and cars are dangerous things that should require plenty of training in order to operate. I’m not saying 50 hours is right for guns, but 4? That’s a joke.

    http://cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/teen_driver_safety/home.html


  64. - Carl from Chicago - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 9:11 pm:

    I voted “sufficent” in Rich’s poll. Allow me to explain.

    Requiring some minimum hours of training (eg. 4 hours), along with live fire, is typically necessary to establish reciprocity agreements with other states. For those who are new to this issue, “reciprocity” is when other states honor a carry license issued by another state.

    That said, many states have no training requirement at all, and those states do not have problems with accidental shootings, and the various other things that proponents of mandatory training tend to worry about. So based on that empirical evidence, I don’t think that mandated training has any meaningful effect on public safety in carry states.

    So, while I am a strong proponent of voluntary training for gun carriers, I don’t really think it should be mandated as a prior restraint on someone who simply wishes to carry an arm for protection.

    But as a practical matter, I predict that the carry bill that passes in IL will have a training component, and it will be there for the express purpose of increased state-to-state license reciprocity.


  65. - SO IL M - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 9:11 pm:

    For those who compare CC training to drivers training

    You can kill a whole lot more people with a car or truck than you can with a handgun


  66. - 47Chief - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 9:24 pm:

    – Precinct Captain - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 7:56 pm:

    Four hours of training for guns? We require 50 at minimum for our teens to drive. Both guns and cars are dangerous things that should require plenty of training in order to operate. I’m not saying 50 hours is right for guns, but 4? That’s a joke.

    http://cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/teen_driver_safety/home.html -

    How many hours are required for an adult to get a driver’s license? Since teens will not be getting CCW permits, your analogy doesn’t hold water.


  67. - RNUG - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 9:39 pm:

    steve,

    roflol !!!


  68. - Fan - Wednesday, Jan 30, 13 @ 9:58 pm:

    Forgive me if I’m dragging on this to long, but it doesn’t take that long to learn how to shoot a gun. A revolver even less, very few moving parts. Equating a conceal carry person to a baby sitter or a car driver is really kind of zany.

    Once you shoot a decent sized gun, you immediately know how dangerous it would be on the other side. They are very loud and can be very powerful given the larger calibers. Some of you commenters act like CCW people will be acting as law enforcement. That isn’t what we CCW’s are thinking. Quit acting like Illinois citizens are the dumbest people on the planet. We may be, but try not to act like it. 49 other states have done this to varying degrees and guess what? No Wild West shoot outs. The most damage done (outside of Chicago) has been done in Gun Free Zones. Do you see the elephant in the room here? Common sense suggestions surely welcomed. Trying to act like Chicken Little is really selling Illinois law abiding citizens short.


  69. - door gunner - Thursday, Jan 31, 13 @ 7:50 am:

    unless you have been there,deciding when to pull the trigger,you probably dont realize how little time you have and you better be right, so the more experience the better.


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* *** UPDATED x1 *** Has the haymaker punch arrived?
* SUBSCRIBERS ONLY - State Senate fundraising report
* Third straight poll shows Rauner leading Quinn
* Last call for tickets!
* Vast Majority of Illinois Voters Support Renewable Energy, Energy Efficiency
* Sun-Times reporters want you to sign their petition
* Same song, different century
* Question of the day
* Quinn finally wins a newspaper endorsement!
* SUBSCRIBERS ONLY - Today's cable TV buy report
* SUBSCRIBERS ONLY - Supplement to today’s edition: Crosstabs, TV ads
* Report: Another tie between Rauner and CS-T chairman
* Bost's "anger," Cook's ratings, Foster's ad
* $580 MILLION EXELON RATE HIKE?? That’s the price tag for their nuke bailout…EVERY YEAR!
* *** UPDATED x1 *** Rauner pumping dollars
* Rauner pushing IDOT back into the news stream
* Gov. Quinn runs new TV ad featuring FLOTUS
* SUBSCRIBERS ONLY - Today's edition of Capitol Fax (use all CAPS in password)
* No, your eyes didn't deceive you
* Good morning!
* Yesterday's blog posts

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        * Gov. Quinn welcomes home Illinois National Guar.....
        * U.S. nurse quarantined over Ebola criticizes he.....
        * No Mandatory Ebola Quarantine In Massachusetts..
        * Animals Flunk These Candidates..
        * Southern Illinois residents rally, wait for fra.....
        * Experts: Quarantines may dissuade Ebola volunteers..
        * Church of Pastor Corey Brooks burglarized after.....
        * Bruce Rauner talks about future goals if electe.....


        * Across US, Dems enlist Latinas for top of ballot
        * Few details offered on quarantines over Ebola
        * State Farm seeks to test drones in Illinois
        * Costly Capitol renovations recognized for design
        * Chicago Fire Department hired few blacks in 2014
        * Illinois lieutenant governor candidates on issues
        * Illinois lieutenant governor candidates bios
        * Lieutenant governor picks hope to help lead
        * Chicago Fire Department hired few blacks in 2014
        * Coroner's jury: July SWAT shooting justified

        * Feminist Gloria Steinem endorses Quinn for governor
        * Madigan, Rauner spend big on Illinois House races
        * Officials rethink early vote-counting after Madigan ruling
        * Minimum wage increase supporters urge early voting
        * Sun-Times political reporter resigns following Rauner complaint
        * Minimum wage hike supporters urge early voting
        * Federal judge orders court-appointed monitor for IDOT hiring
        * Rep. Raymond Poe to undergo stem cell transplant
        * Bill Clinton campaigns for Quinn, Durbin
        * Quinn, Rauner spar over jobs, taxes

        * Why the Chicago-Illinois tech startup partnership won't be easy
        * Republican hopes fade for a comeback in U.S. House races
        * Jennifer Pritzker talks about a year of change
        * How much money do Exelon's nukes really make?
        * Shopping startup Trunk Club sizes up the women's market


        * Enthusiastic student Stan Kij, 25, dies of stomach cancer
        * Judge rejects Pistorius comparison, gives 17-year sentence in murder-for-hire plot
        * Keep it peaceful in Ferguson, Mo.
        * Why wasn’t Ebola doc kept under scrutiny?
        * Editorial: Bruce Rauner for governor
        * Back to the past with mayor’s move
        * Illinois needs better way to deal with terminally ill inmates
        * At panel on school closings, board acknowledges more planning needed
        * Marina City residents reminded to watch their step during Wallenda’s walk
        * Republican senators question Quinn’s IDOT scandal response


        * 3 hurt in daytime shootings Saturday
        * 2 held after boy, 13, fatally shot in Gary
        * Man charged with failing to reveal he had HIV to partner
        * Man charged with possession of child porn
        * Man held on $1M bail in August slaying on South Side
        * $500K bail for man accused of taking semi, critically injuring cyclist
        * 1st phase of $719 million Tri-State, I-57 interchange opens
        * $1M bail for teen charged in fatal Englewood shooting
        * 2 dead, 8 hurt in shootings Friday into Saturday
        * Illinois orders mandatory Ebola quarantine for high-risk travelers


        * Listen to State Week - October 24, 2014
        * 2014 Election Coverage: Citizens, here's your homework!
        * 2 dead, including gunman, in high school shooting
        * Prosecutors want more of indicted police commander’s 'bad acts' in court
        * Prosecutors want more of indicted police commander's 'bad acts' in court
        * Bedrock 66: Charlie Parr Plays Springfield Friday
        * Oberweis Would Back Federal Same Sex Marriage Law
        * Wild Bison Return To IL
        * Scary Story: The Diviner by Susan Vondrak
        * Artist Profile: Local Troubadour Tom Irwin


        * Michael Bromberg: Benedictine looking ahead at changes in higher ed
        * Charles Krauthammer: Barack Obama, aggrieved bystander
        * Feminist Gloria Steinem endorses Quinn for governor
        * Madigan, Rauner spend big on Illinois House races
        * Our Opinion: Bell, Manar, Davidsmeyer endorsed in state legislative races
        * Craig Burns: Honesty, integrity in great supply at CWLP
        * E.J. Dionne: Ebola, pandering and courage
        * Esther Cepeda: Benefits of closing the word gap
        * Officials rethink early vote-counting after Madigan ruling
        * Our Opinion: Frerichs has the expertise to be Illinois treasurer


        * Scary run
        * State Farm seeks to test drones in Illinois
        * Triopia makes playoffs
        * LIVE! Back at Huff
        * Wally finds some Belleville companies just didn't last long
        * Devil's Kitchen Water District lifts boil order in Grassy Road area
        * Prep football Top 10: Newcomers enter after final week
        * Durbin says he'll 'get to the bottom' of why Transcom contractor is shipping cars late
        * Chicago Fire Department hired few blacks in 2014
        * Speakers: Voting, voter education crucial for African Americans


        * Ebola nurse first quarantine, not happy
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        * More Illinois voters report machine switching votes from GOP to Dem
        * Clowns With Sex Toys Attacked Illinois Family
        * Oberweis: DOJ needs to investigate threats against Pastor Corey Brooks and his family
        * More reports on potential voting fraud in Rock Island County, Illinois
        * More reports of potential voting fraud in Rock Island County, Illinois
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        * Governor Quinn Announces Major Expansion of Public Recreational Access at Lake Calumet - Project Will Be Centerpiece of Governor’s Millennium Reserve Initiative
        * Governor Quinn Welcomes Illinois National Guard Brigade Home from Kuwait - Illinois’ 108th Sustainment Brigade Returns from Deployment
        * Rauner rips Quinn on IDOT patronage oversight
        * Governor Quinn Announces Winners of 2014 Illinois Export Awards - State’s Trade Programs Help Companies Increase Global Sales
        * Governor Quinn Directs Illinois Department of Public Health to Require Quarantine to Protect Against Ebola




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