The obsession with doctrine
Thursday, Sep 19, 2013 - Posted by Rich Miller
* I’m not a Catholic, but I gotta say that this is pretty good advice for everyone, in all walks of life, including politics…
[Pope Francis’] vision of what the church should be stands out, primarily because it contrasts so sharply with many of the priorities of his immediate predecessors, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. They were both intellectuals for whom doctrine was paramount, an orientation that guided the selection of a generation of bishops and cardinals around the globe.
Francis said the dogmatic and the moral teachings of the church were not all equivalent.
“The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently,” Francis said. “We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel.”
Rather, he said, the Catholic Church must be like a “field hospital after battle,” healing the wounds of its faithful and going out to find those who have been hurt, excluded or have fallen away. […]
“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible,” he said. “The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”
Mixing religion and politics is always a dangerous game, so please try to keep it civil in comments. Thanks.
- Meanderthal - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 12:42 pm:
Who died and made him Pope?
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 12:45 pm:
He is restoring the notion of service in being a servant-leader.
And that is refreshing.
Others in leadership positions would do well to follow his lead.
- Bill White - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 12:53 pm:
+1 for Meanderthal
- AFSCME Steward - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 12:56 pm:
Everytime I hear I quote from him I am refreshed. He understands what Christ is about. I’m not a Catholic, but I have the upmost admiration for this wonderful, humble man. If we could all be like him the world would be a better place.
- 47th Ward - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:02 pm:
I saw this quote from Pope Francis recently:
“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person.”
I am very encouraged by his leadership so far.
- Anonymous - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:02 pm:
Makes me wonder if Catholic (or non-Catholic) Tea Partiers would heed this advice.
- Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:06 pm:
Has Cardinal George responded to this? Given his comments to Mark Brown a few weeks ago, I think he’s “got some ’splainin’ to do.”
- Archiesmom - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:07 pm:
Francis is enough to make a lot of lapsed Catholics think about participating in the Church again. I hope he has a food taster.
- Anon - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:09 pm:
Actually, Meanderthal, no one died making him pope.
;^)
- downstate commissioner - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:12 pm:
Anonymous @ 1:02- or any of the other haters, of any political persuasion…
- Nearly Normal - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:20 pm:
– I hope he has a food taster.–
Been watching “The Borgias” on Showtime?
The original article was in “America”, a weekly publication of the Jesuits. You can access the full article here–
http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview
Amazing.
- downstate commissioner - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:25 pm:
I am not a Catholic (or even much of a Christian, for that matter). I wouldn’t have walked across the street to hear previous Popes (with their ostentatious king-like trappings)speak; additionally I had no interest in what they said, didn’t pay any attention to news articles,etc.
Pope Francis is different, and his humble beliefs and doings have even me paying attention. The problem he has is the same as other outsiders coming in to an organization-fighting the “good old boys” and their entrenched beliefs. I wish him luck…
- Joe M - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:34 pm:
Not to mix politics and religions, but I wish some political groups would also take his dogmatic approach.
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:36 pm:
=== Makes me wonder if Catholic (or non-Catholic) Tea Partiers would heed this advice. ===
Or anyone who seeks to pass judgment on others.
- wayward - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:45 pm:
Still not interested in going back to the Catholic church, but I’ve really liked Pope Francis so far.
- Out Here In The Middle - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 1:55 pm:
“He who steadily observes the moral precepts in which all religions concur, will never be questioned at the gates of heaven as to the dogmas in which they all differ.”
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) US President (1801-09)
Letter to William Canby (18 Sep 1813)
- Louis Howe - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 2:10 pm:
Great post Rich!!! As a former Catholic primary school graduate (early 1960s), I never heard the word abortion until the 1970s. It’s about time the church re-focuses on caring about the individual dignity of human life, and less about abortion and sexual preferences.
- MM - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 2:36 pm:
The Church must act this way to remain relevant. It’s bleeding marketshare across the globe. It’s no secret why the Church picked a South American to be Pope.
“The new study by the Pew Forum also finds that roughly one-in-six people around the globe (1.1 billion, or 16%) have no religious affiliation.
This makes the unaffiliated the third-largest religious group worldwide, behind Christians and Muslims, and about equal in size to the world’s Catholic population.”
- Pew Forum Global Religious Landscape Survey, Oct ‘12
Further, this sounds rosy right now, but let’s wait to see if the Church funds another political campaign against marriage equality, protests abortion, or commits another sexual act against a child.
Oops…
“The Vatican has recalled the papal envoy to the Dominican Republic as authorities in the Caribbean country investigate rumors of alleged child sex abuse.”
ABC News, September 4, ‘13
- Ahoy! - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 2:46 pm:
First off, I love this Pope. If he was named Pope 5 - 7 years ago, I’d probably be Catholic today. I hope the Cardinals and Bishops (especially the ones appointed by Benedict) take note and follow his lead.
Second of all, this is a good lesson, especially for the Republican party right now. Not only for the good of the country, but for the good of the party, they have to stop stop looking for this “conservative purity” and stop calling people Rinos and other names just because someone disagrees.
- hisgirlfriday - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:01 pm:
Props to Pope Francis bringing the Catholic church closer to a catholic, as in universal, church.
- Darienite - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:06 pm:
I think the most telling part was when the interviewer asked who he is, Pope Francis replied: “I am a sinner”. Humility is often interpreted as a weakness; he is making it his strength. He then described his experience as a Cardinal in Argentina where he now feels he was too authoritarian. It’s a lesson we all could learn from.
- votecounter - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:08 pm:
“The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church”
The Pope is not leaving the teaching of the church! It is not the people who attend church that want to talk about these issues it is people who think the Church should evolve. It is the haters of the church who bring these issues up as proof that the church is behind the times and then they are used to attack the Church or believers; It is when the church/believers do not waver when the attacks start. It is great people are listening to the Pope since he is only saying what the church believes and always has. It is the job of the church to forgive and look beyond the sin and love the sinner. It seems that the media wants so badly for this Pope to denounce church doctrine and the headline insinuate he is but when you read what he says he is being consistant with 2000 years of teaching.
- Rufus - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:09 pm:
First ray of sunshine that I’ve heard from the Catholic Church in a long, long time.
I am cautiously optimistic.
- Wilson - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:11 pm:
– Roland — Just heard on the radio that Cardinal George hasn’t made a statement yet. You’re right, George and other conservative voices in the Church have some explaining to do. They were very quick to parse similar statements made by the Pope on his flight home from Brazil in July. A lot of “he didn’t really mean what you think he said.”
The Pope doubled down on those statements in this interview…it will be interesting to hear George’s response. This Pope is tying the conservatives in knots! Remember, Catholic doctrine holds the Pope infallible, so George and his ilk can not disagree with him.
- Arthur Andersen - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:13 pm:
I really like this Pope. Anyone who is willing to ride around Rome in an ‘84 Renault is truly a man of faith in my book.
- wordslinger - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:14 pm:
I was blessed to be taught the Gospels by Father Phil and Father John at the First Lutheran Church of DeKalb.
What a gift. It informs everything I think and do and it can never be lost.
I was further blessed that great sinners like Elvis, Johnny Cash, and Mahalia Jackson explained the whole confusing issue of existence in such a compelling manner that I could find the light.
We’ll all be together at the banquet, in the great by and by.
- SpfldCatholic - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:19 pm:
I hope Bishop Proprocki listens to what Pope Francis has to say. For that matter, I hope the Bishop would listen to what the Gospel says about loving others and not being judgemental.
- Wensicia - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:22 pm:
I believe this Pope realizes the future of his Church relies on inclusion, not exclusion. He is a true follower of Christ.
- wordslinger - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:29 pm:
–“He who steadily observes the moral precepts in which all religions concur, will never be questioned at the gates of heaven as to the dogmas in which they all differ.”–
Not a word wasted. Beautiful. Jefferson could really lay it down. Only Lincoln was better. And no one was better than Lincoln. See the Second Inaugural.
Of course, Jefferson did not live by the beautiful words he wrote. He had slaves, and defended slavery until the day he died. His defense was that it would have cost him money to give them up.
His words aside, he was in practice a racist, a rapist, and a man who allowed his own children to live as slaves.
You can have your Jefferson. This Yankee will take John Adams.
- Driveby - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:32 pm:
Inspiring, wonderful. And he said recently that atheists are not barred from salvation, and “who am I to judge?” about gays. Amen.
- Demoralized - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:43 pm:
@votecounter:
Go easy on the coffee will ya? He’s not denouncing church doctrine. He’s denouncing, I believe, the way some in the church act. There are many people who declare themselves judge over their fellow Christians and he has spoken about that many times. It’s not the job of people to engage in that behavior.
And yes, votecounter, churches DO have to evolve to maintain relevance with their congregants. They don’t have to change their beliefs but they must adapt to the times. That’s just a fact.
Take a chill pill.
- Adam Smith - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:45 pm:
Everyone who disagrees with the Church must remember, this Pope is NOT abandoning a strong position on marriage or abortion. He is dead set against ever approving of abortion or gay marriage. So don’t get confused.
That being said, he is trying to move the Church in a different direction and broaden the way the Church makes its presence felt in society.
He is also making a critical distinction more clear. The Church can oppose an action it sees as sinful (sex outside of marriage, gay or straight for example) while still respecting the human dignity of each individual.
Francis has often said that the Church should teach rather than dictate.
Personally, I hope he does not compromise on the principles and tenant of the faith, but I am ecstatic that he is making dialogue respectful, inclusive and pastoral.
- Publius - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:45 pm:
Good advice for all those antediluvian bishops, like Paprocki. And also a good approach that could renew the Republican party.
- A guy... - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:49 pm:
I am Catholic. Not lapsed, not used to be, not fallen away. Just Catholic. A faithful believer. One who understands throughout history, our institution has wrongfully done harm, falsely in the name of our faith. Our good has far outweighed our failings, but they don’t make up for any harm done to any individual or group during the time of our existence. We must always work to do the right things in the name of our faith. We have failed at times in the past, and will again, no doubt, in the future. We’re human, and sin not on purpose, but by our very nature. We’ve got to strive to do better always. This Pope is a gift from God. So were his immediate predecessors. To those who have gone away or never were part of our faith, consider Pope Francis’ welcome universal. No Catholic I know is not thrilled with him. Surely, he’s more ‘western’ than the others before him. We probably all relate better to him here. He may preach doctrine in a way that makes him easier to understand and agree with for Catholics and Non-Catholics alike. He’s concerned with every aspect of the human condition, not just the hot buttons. Everything he says over time will not please people, but he has established himself as a humble servant. That is good. Very good.
- amdq - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:50 pm:
I am a Catholic and what @wilson said is not correct. It’s very frustrating to hear people misrepresent the Church and her teachings. The pope is not infallible in all that he says and does. There are only (2) count them (2) times that a pope has declared anything that was infallible. The truth of the matter is that our nation (one that I have served in uniform to protect) has become so obsessed with our own personal views and freedoms that we lose sight of the beauty of obedience and hierarchy. Pope Francis has not changed one single thing in the teachings of the Church, yet everyone is going gaga for what they believe is a shift to what THEY want to hear. Bottom line: Abortion is immoral and wrong. We must continue to pray for those who feel it is there only out of a bad situation. Homosexuality is against natural law, but we do not condemn those that are homosexual, but pray for their ability to remain chaste. My Faith teaches us to love one another like Christ taught. Yes, we have had our problems - name one institution run by humans that hasn’t. The sex scandal is an example of great evils that can happen in any entity. My hope is that we can stop pointing fingers and pray for conversions of heart. Cardinal George and Bishop Papracki are doing exactly what they are supposed to do as the shepherds of their local flock: teaching us! Okay, let me get off of my soap box.
- SpfldCatholic - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 3:52 pm:
“It is not the people who attend church that want to talk about these issues it is people who think the Church should evolve.”
Ummm… I’m at Mass every Sunday and I desperately want the Church to evolve. Maybe not so much evolve as to really live the scriptures.
- sideline watcher - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 4:08 pm:
I thought I was someone for whom my faith and my politics regularly collided. Then I evolved into thinking that it is not my faith that is the problem, it is the coursening of our discourse and the inability of people to disagree within the parameters of our faith that was more of an issue and in the end that is just as fallible as people are. When this Pope chose to perform the annual washing of the feet ritual in a women’s detention facility and included muslims…when this Pope made clear by the choosing of his name that his focus would finally steer towards social justice and the work the Church does to ease the suffering of the poor and when I read this today… my heart is singing. I have grown so weary with being excoriated for abortion and civil unions and marriage equality, while conservative Catholic electeds get a pass on fighting for the death penalty and decimating social service programs with blatant disregard for any Church teaching on matters of social justice. I pray that the leadership of the Church remembers what Catholic means….Universal…so that I can come home. I want so very much to come home. And I know that there are so many people who feel just like me.
- nothin's easy - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 4:08 pm:
The church teaches there is only one Judge. The rest must be shepherds - not disciplinarians.
- bill ryan - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 4:20 pm:
I am catholic and so proud to be one today. thanks pope francis
- 47th Ward - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 4:21 pm:
Andrew Sullivan’s take on the interview is worth a read. Money quote on religion and politics:
“Those who today always look for disciplinarian solutions, those who long for an exaggerated doctrinal ‘security,’ those who stubbornly try to recover a past that no longer exists—they have a static and inward-directed view of things. In this way, faith becomes an ideology among other ideologies.”
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/09/19/the-rebirth-of-catholicism/
- Big Muddy - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 4:23 pm:
You hearing all of this Mr. Goliath Slayer? Homophobes and those that stand and judge others could learn a whole lot from this wonderful man.
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 4:24 pm:
=== The Church must act this way to remain relevant. It’s bleeding marketshare across the globe. ===
@MM, it looks like you got your facts wrong.
“Over the past century, the number of Catholics around the globe has more than tripled, from an estimated 291 million in 1910 to nearly 1.1 billion as of 2010, according to a comprehensive demographic study by the Pew Research Center.
But over the same period, the world’s overall population also has risen rapidly. As a result, Catholics have made up a remarkably stable share of all people on Earth. In 1910, Catholics comprised about half (48%) of all Christians and 17% of the world’s total population, according to historical estimates from the World Christian Database. A century later, the Pew Research study found, Catholics still comprise about half (50%) of Christians worldwide and 16% of the total global population.”
www.pewforum.org/2013/02/13/the-global-catholic-population
- East Central Illinois - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 4:25 pm:
I totally agree with AdamSmith and Votecounter . . . The Pope is not backing away from the ideas/theology on the issues; but rather he is speaking to how the church treats people who have differing views from the church on the issues. There is a big difference.
- Darienite - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 4:38 pm:
@amdq - It is not enough to just pray for pregnant women not to abort. We as Catholics need to assist them both spiritually and financially in keeping their babies, or in making the decision to have them placed for adoption. The Pope says we need to show mercy rather than judgement when approaching sin.
- paddyrollingstone - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 4:46 pm:
A great, great man. There is not much in any of these comments that I disagree with. As a Catholic, Francis makes me so proud. I think the essence of what he says and what he stands for can be summed up in the words of another great religious leader, the Dalai Lama: “My religion is simple. My religion is kindness.” That perfectly encapsulates the teachings of Jesus. Amen, brother.
- jimbo26 - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 5:02 pm:
If the Pope can change some of the Bishops, you will see more of us come home to the Church. If we believe in life, then we must be for education, good jobs, and support for those who need help regardless of their time in life.
- Anonymous - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 5:44 pm:
Seems like a reasonable man - except for the part about believing in god.
- Ray Midge - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 5:49 pm:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/22667924-418/popes-message-leaves-chicago-lgbt-leaders-hopeful-awaiting-cardinal-georges-reaction.html
Cardinal George and the Archdiocese of Chicago declined comment on Thursday: “The Cardinal is out of the office and unavailable today. He has not read the article yet so he will not be able to comment at this time,” spokeswoman Colleen Dolan said.
Profiles in courage.
- Ruby - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 5:55 pm:
The exclusion of women from ordination is a huge reason why so many American women are leaving the Catholic church. This policy makes women feel undervalued by the church. Maybe Pope Francis will do something about this.
- Formerly Known As... - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 7:25 pm:
@Anonymous 5:44 pm - way to “keep it civil in comments” on this particular thread.
Stay classy.
- Anonymous - Thursday, Sep 19, 13 @ 9:47 pm:
Good advice for the previous “Anonymous”, FKA. Comments like that, even if joking, make us all look bad.
- Juvenal - Friday, Sep 20, 13 @ 7:24 am:
@Darienite -
Yeah, let’s add “stop conspiring to withold scientific information that will enable them to delay parenting until they are ready” to that list. Please?
For the love of the Pope, everyone who is defending Catholic doctrine ought to stop posting about abortion, equal rights and contraception until they can start and end their post with atleast three Catholic doctrines that build common ground with athiests or atleast agnostics.
Too often, both political groups and religious organizations confuse doctrine with values. Lasting organizations need a set of core values. Doctrine is the product of those values that addresses the needs of the times.
unfortunately, when people are drawn to an organization by its doctrine, they often fail to grasp the underlying principles or core values. In reaction, they try to contort core values to fit doctrine.
And so, the Republican Party, founded on principles of small government, has become an interventionist when it comes to the personal lives of tens of millions of everyday citizens.
The Democratic Party, by contrast, was willing to risk the loss of millions of voters when it came to civil rights.
- votecounter - Friday, Sep 20, 13 @ 9:58 am:
The Democrat party was the Party that delayed passage of the civil rights Bill! Read your history it was a majority of GOP votes that passed the civil rights bill. It was the Senate minority leader Dirksen who gathered the votes to pass the legislation while people like Robert Byrd who’s filibuster takes up 86 pages in fine print in the congressional record.
Although Democrats had a historically large majority in the House of Representatives with 259 members to 176 Republicans, almost as many Republicans voted for the civil rights bill as Democrats. The final vote was 290 for the bill and 130 against. Of the “yea” votes, 152 were Democrats and 138 were Republicans. Of the “nay” votes, three-fourths were Democrats. In short, the bill could not have passed without Republican support.
- Anyone Remember? - Friday, Sep 20, 13 @ 12:01 pm:
@votecounter
The children, and grandchildren, of Democrats who opposed Civil Rights are now National Republicans. They followed Strom Thurmond into the National Republican party, as part of Richard Nixon’s Southern Strategy.