SUBSCRIBE to Capitol Fax      Advertise Here      Mobile Version     Exclusive Subscriber Content     Updated Posts    Contact
CapitolFax.com
To subscribe to Capitol Fax, click here.
Those Texas taxes

Thursday, Jul 10, 2014

* From the Washington Monthly

(A)ccording to a joint study by the accounting firm Ernst & Young and the Council on State Taxation, in fiscal year 2012 state and local business taxes in California came to 4.5 percent of private-sector gross state product. This compares with a 4.8 percent average for all fifty states—and a rate of 5.2 percent in Texas. With the exception of New York, every major state in the country, including New Jersey, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Minnesota, has a lower total effective business tax rate than Texas. [Some emphasis added.]

- Posted by Rich Miller        


36 Comments
  1. - BigBob - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 12:43 pm:

    CNBC website has an article about job growth not following state tax cutting. Wisconsin job growth trails all neighboring states, including Illinois.


  2. - Dee Lay - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 12:43 pm:

    Reality has a well-known liberal bias.


  3. - wordslinger - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 12:52 pm:

    How dare you, Miller, cast factual aspersions upon The Promised Land?


  4. - Anonymous - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 12:54 pm:

    Everything really is bigger there.


  5. - Jimmy - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 12:55 pm:

    I’m sure the Texans will blame illegal immigrants for their high business taxes.


  6. - 47th Ward - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 12:56 pm:

    Everything is bigger in Texas, including the egos and the lies.


  7. - OneMan - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 12:58 pm:

    BigBob…

    That isn’t what the federal government says…

    Wisconsin 6.3% job growth since Feb 2010, Illinois 5.1%

    The also are doing better in initial jobless claims rate over the last 12 months.

    Wisconsin

    http://www.jec.senate.gov/public//index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=762aa1d9-2ec9-46b7-8b5d-b4ca73aa4b9c

    Illinois

    http://www.jec.senate.gov/public//index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=b3163626-3441-44dc-9f40-b64e0b64e28c


  8. - Concerned - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:03 pm:

    Sshhhhhh, don’t tell Gov. Perry. He is just starting to feel smarter with his glasses and if you confuse him with facts, he’ll say he’ll cut three things: taxes, government services and, oops, I forgot the third thing,


  9. - walker - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:04 pm:

    Perception is reality, even for business owners. Others do a better job creating a “business-friendly” environment. Indiana’s leaders have been masters of that, led by their big business community as cheerleaders for the state. Of course in some area we do lag. Just not as much as perceived in taxation.


  10. - lake county democrat - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:19 pm:

    Quinn’s Tribune editorial had it right - lots of factors go into where businesses want to be. North Carolina’s boom, for example, is party attributable to a consistent and aggressive effort to improve their school system. But I’m not ready to say state taxes have no effect - Toyota didn’t relocate it’s California opperations to Texas for nothing and I suspect NY has some evidence that their program which gives relocating businesses big tax breaks is effective.


  11. - Modest proposal - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:26 pm:

    I don’t think “taxes” are the problem in Illinois. The problem is the regulations. The cost of business is high, we have high unemployment insurance, high workers comp, the accessibility code, we are not a right to work state and numerous other barriers nickling and dining businesses. Our taxes have always been rather low, but that’s in combination with regulation. If you bring taxes up, then regulation has to come down to bring the state in balance. At least that’s my opinion.


  12. - Anon - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:29 pm:

    How can a high business tax rate possibly be compatible with robust job growth? It is contrary to conservative theory. While IL having a lower effective rate than TX is contrary to GOP fundamental belief.


  13. - Anonymous - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:30 pm:

    Oneman, jobs does not really speak much about economic success or health. median household income is a much better marker. a State of minimium wage families is a burden, not an aid to a State, even if you have 100% employement.

    Wisconsin median household income 2012 = $51,059 1 year change -0.76%
    http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/wisconsin/

    US median household income 2012 $51,371 1 year change -0.36%

    Illinois median Household income 2012 $55,137 1 year change +1.46%

    So the earning and spending power of a wisconsin family is below the US household median income, and has gone down at a greater rate then the US median income durin the start of the economic recovery.

    In Illinois the median houehold income is above the national average, and increased from 2011 - 2012 while nationaly median income declined.

    overall that means workers are better off in illinois as they are better paid. This transalets to greater economic activity and stability.

    Wisoncsin may be adding jobs, but the quality of life, earning power etc are going down. This suggest they are adding poverty level jobs. if the goal is to reach poverty first, Wisconsin is ahead.


  14. - Ghost - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:31 pm:

    oops forgot my handle for the above


  15. - better days - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:35 pm:

    Illinois has the worst credit rating of all 50 states… 2nd most people leaving state.. 4th highest workman comp .. lowest job creation last year among 7 Mid west States..Illinois still broke after collecting a $$27 BILLION new TAX increase last 3 years


  16. - Arizona Bob - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:36 pm:

    I read the article, and I guess Rich just wanted to accent the negative perceptions about Texas.

    For example, Dems like to claim that Texas is creating only “low income jobs”, but the study debunks that myth. 45% of new Texas jobs since 2001 are in the top half of national salaries, and 25.6% job growth in the upper middle quarter of salaries occured in Texas, while new jobs in that category DECREASED by 4.1% in the rest of the country.

    An obvious bias was exposed in the article when the author criticized Texas for spending the 41st least amount in K-12 education, yet chose not to mention that national test scores from NAEP show that despite that “low” spending Texas students achieve at about average for the nation, despite having 16% low income students.

    Apparently spending effectively isn’t as important as spending large to the author.

    Finally, the article was curiously short in what it considered “business taxes”. Is workman’s comp a “tax” included in the study? How about “user fees” like the ones that drove the trucking industry out of Illinois? What about taxes on oil and gas production? Those tend to be higher than average business taxes, so is it a problem that the industry is carrying a bigger share of the state and local tax burden?

    Notice that they quote the “effective” tax burden. Is that an indication that tax rates are fairly enforced throughout businesses in Texas, unlike crony capitalist states like Illinois that give away huge tax deductions and breaks to the politically well connected?

    Bias aside, there WAS good info in the article. I suggest it as a good read.


  17. - A guy... - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:38 pm:

    “has a lower total effective business tax rate than Texas.”

    These caveats will continue to get lost in the fog. People just won’t dig this deep for analysis.


  18. - Arizona Bob - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:40 pm:

    @Anon
    =In Illinois the median houehold income is above the national average, and increased from 2011 - 2012 while nationaly median income declined.overall that means workers are better off in illinois as they are better paid. This transalets to greater economic activity and stability.=

    Not necessarily true, anon. If a state loses massive numbers of lower half income jobs, the average goes up. It seems in Illinois our low income, low skilled workers have been hurt the most by our driving businesses away from Illinois through government mismanagement and corruption.

    Unlike you, I don’t think making low income workers unemployed and going on the dole to be a good thing. Why do you?


  19. - Anon - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:48 pm:

    So tired of people crapping on IL (which is mostly done for politcal reasons). Yes we have problems, but then again so does everyone else. I have been to some of these so called “Edens” like Texas. Needless to say I did not see paradise on earth. Don’t like IL? Work on improving it or move.


  20. - walker - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:48 pm:

    To be fair, personal income tax rates are more important than business taxes, for a high proportion of small business owners.

    Very hard to factor those in when comparing burdens on businesses-plus-owners.

    (Sometimes a business is the same as the person who owns it, for some purposes — or so SCOTUS believes.)


  21. - Dan S - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:49 pm:

    Total Tax burden Ill 10.2%.
    Total tax burden Tx 7.5%.

    Here is a secret, businesses don’t pay taxes, they shift the cost to the customer.


  22. - Anonymous - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:00 pm:

    ===The problem is the regulations. The cost of business is high, we have high unemployment insurance, high workers comp, the accessibility code, we are not a right to work state and numerous other barriers nickling and dining businesses===

    Yea, those regulations should be relaxed. Just look at Indiana. I am sure ArcelorMittal is so worried about those pesky regulations, that only fined them $7000, when one of their workers was boiled to death.
    Lets not forget that most of these regulations are put into place to protect workers and the public. And the unions are a main force behind getting them passed. Putting business first is a nice catch phrase but I think putting lives first out weighs that.

    “ArcelorMittal fined over Indiana worker’s death”

    http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/business/28543556-420/arcelormittal-fined-over-indiana-workers-death.html#.U77gbmdOXug


  23. - walker - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:02 pm:

    Dans S: Here’s a secret: not always, not entirely. Businesses deal with higher costs in all kinds of different ways. Some will likely impact their prices to some extent.

    Sorry, but real world economics are never so simple as we sometimes like to believe and say. No disrespect meant. I do it too.


  24. - Grandson of Man - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:02 pm:

    Yesterday I was saying that I look at states holistically, and Texas doesn’t measure up to many other states in ways I and others find important. It’s not just about jobs numbers.

    Here is another Obamacare study (linked in article) that just came out, showing that the number of uninsured dropped 5%, but there were significant drops in the number of uninsured in Medicare expansion states. Other states like Texas show very little dropoff in the number of uninsured.

    In the article, Texas is ranked at or near the bottom again by having a high number of uninsured.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/09/obamacare-medicaid-uninsured_n_5572079.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

    Again, Texas has reparative therapy and repeal of the Voting Rights Act in its GOP platform. Ugh!


  25. - Illiana - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:03 pm:

    BigBob & OneMan,

    I think the main difference between your two stats are as follows:

    The sources that claim Wisconsin is creating fewer jobs than Illinois start the clock around when Walker became governor in January 2011. OneMan’s link started the clock in February 2010.

    Example:
    http://www.jsonline.com/business/wisconsin-gained-28054-private-sector-jobs-over-last-12-months-b99290756z1-263818541.html


  26. - Grandson of Man - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:09 pm:

    “Other states like Texas show very little dropoff in the number of uninsured.”

    Correction: Texas did have a significant drop in the number of uninsured, but it could be from the federal marketplace. It’s still a high number compared with other states in the article.

    States who did expand Medicaid covered a significantly higher number of people than states who didn’t. This is a no-brainer, but still, more people are getting insurance thanks to Medicaid expansion. Many of those folks work and need coverage for themselves and their families. Many have illnesses.


  27. - olddog - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:19 pm:

    If we’re going to compare Illinois to Texas — or Wisconsin — we may as well compare it to the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg. Different political cultures.

    Speaking of Texas, Rolling Stone has an interesting story …

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/lone-star-crazy-how-right-wing-extremists-took-over-texas-20140701

    I took it with a grain of salt, but it was an interesting read.


  28. - oz - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:28 pm:

    So this proves that Chicago and Illinois tax break impunity to corporations in return for the promise of jobs DOES NOT WORK!

    Plain and simple.


  29. - Illiana - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:30 pm:

    Realistically, the state has such high debts that have to be paid, there probably isn’t much that can be done on the tax side. It would make more sense for people to look into what regulatory environment changes can do to help Illinois’s economy.


  30. - CirularFiringSquad - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:38 pm:

    Texas also has no fire code which helps the random development of those chemical plants that go boom.


  31. - Jimbo - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 2:53 pm:

    OneMan, your numbers do not reference the same period as Bobs. Not to mention, we don’t know if his numbers include public employees as well, or how they count part time employment. Statistics can demonstrate nearly anything you like. Also, not sure when Walker instituted his probusiness tax schemes, but I don’t think it corresponds exactly to your numbers. You’re not wrong. I’m just saying that just because you are right, doesn’t mean Bob is wrong.


  32. - Precinct Captain - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 4:13 pm:

    ==- Modest proposal - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 1:26 pm:==

    Whether there are too many or too few regulations, how regulations are imposed is a critical factor as well. Imagine being able to go to a “Business Regulations Office” and get things done in a day or two instead of many days going to a byzantine number of offices for a dizzying array of permits. The smoke filled room image of Chicago government does not help who don’t know how to play the game.


  33. - Anyone Rememer - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 4:19 pm:

    Dan S.

    =Here is a secret, businesses don’t pay taxes, they shift the cost to the customer.=

    Even Milton Friedman didn’t believe that one. He said to get customers some businesses would pass on less than 100% of the increased costs.


  34. - Jimbo - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 4:22 pm:

    I’m curious about this Texas miracle. What I’ve read is that, as a percentage, job growth in California is the highest this and Texas ranks 8th. Still impressive, but California doesn’t exactly have a low tax business friendly image.


  35. - Jimbo - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 4:30 pm:

    Nevermind. That study looked at the percentage change in the employment rate. Texas has an influx of people that are being employed, so while many more jobs are being added, the rate of employment isn’t necessarily rising more than a state losing residents.


  36. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Thursday, Jul 10, 14 @ 7:33 pm:

    Ghost:

    Great analysis.

    With Respect,

    YDD


Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.


* Crain's: "Market-based" solution is rigged
* Even more problems for Schock
* Yesterday's blog posts

Support CapitolFax.com
Visit our advertisers...

...............

...............

...............

...............

...............

...............

...............

...............


Search This Blog...

Search the 98th General Assembly By Bill Number
(example: HB0001)

Search the 98th General Assembly By Keyword

          
        * Mobile Printing App 'Printer Pro' Named Apple's Free App of the Week
        * AutoWear is a Tasker plug-in for your Android Wear device
        * VLC update adds in-app extensions, resume playback, Android TV support, more
        * Ericsson seeks US sales ban of Apple iPhone, iPad in patent lawsuit barrage
        * Ericsson Sues Apple Over Patent Licensing, Seeks To Block iPhone And iPad Sales
        * Mix like a DJ, mix free with djay Free
        * Galaxy S6 and S6 Edge renders shown off in Sprint promo

        * ​The Best Way to Keep Your Cheese Fresh (Without Pricey Cheese Papers)
        * Top Off Your Batteries With These Discounted Anker Chargers
        * Benchmark Leads $7.4 Million Round in Live Games Platform PlayFab
        * Gawker Media’s Nick Denton Goes It Alone: The Code/Media Interview (Video)
        * How to Get Smartphone Service While Traveling Abroad
        * Ensuring a Successful OpenStack Deployment
        * The Importance of Self-Compassion and Curiosity to Getting Fit

        * First week of camp in the books for improved White Sox
        * Maximizing speed Coleman's mission with White Sox
        * Davidson reclaims zeal for game, confidence
        * Terrerobytes: Jose Quintana shows up on the radar
        * Coleman infuses passion for baserunning into discussion
        * Melky aims to be catalyst from No. 2 spot
        * White Sox feel pain of Bulls', Blackhawks' injuries

        ...............


        Main Menu
        Home
        Illinois
        YouTube
        Pundit rankings
        Obama
        Subscriber Content
        Durbin
        Burris
        Blagojevich Trial
        Advertising
        Updated Posts
        Polls

        Archives
        February 2015
        January 2015
        December 2014
        November 2014
        October 2014
        September 2014
        August 2014
        July 2014
        June 2014
        May 2014
        April 2014
        March 2014
        February 2014
        January 2014
        December 2013
        November 2013
        October 2013
        September 2013
        August 2013
        July 2013
        June 2013
        May 2013
        April 2013
        March 2013
        February 2013
        January 2013
        December 2012
        November 2012
        October 2012
        September 2012
        August 2012
        July 2012
        June 2012
        May 2012
        April 2012
        March 2012
        February 2012
        January 2012
        December 2011
        November 2011
        October 2011
        September 2011
        August 2011
        July 2011
        June 2011
        May 2011
        April 2011
        March 2011
        February 2011
        January 2011
        December 2010
        November 2010
        October 2010
        September 2010
        August 2010
        July 2010
        June 2010
        May 2010
        April 2010
        March 2010
        February 2010
        January 2010
        December 2009
        November 2009
        October 2009
        September 2009
        August 2009
        July 2009
        June 2009
        May 2009
        April 2009
        March 2009
        February 2009
        January 2009
        December 2008
        November 2008
        October 2008
        September 2008
        August 2008
        July 2008
        June 2008
        May 2008
        April 2008
        March 2008
        February 2008
        January 2008
        December 2007
        November 2007
        October 2007
        September 2007
        August 2007
        July 2007
        June 2007
        May 2007
        April 2007
        March 2007
        February 2007
        January 2007
        December 2006
        November 2006
        October 2006
        September 2006
        August 2006
        July 2006
        June 2006
        May 2006
        April 2006
        March 2006
        February 2006
        January 2006
        December 2005
        April 2005
        March 2005
        February 2005
        January 2005
        December 2004
        November 2004
        October 2004

        Blog*Spot Archives
        November 2005
        October 2005
        September 2005
        August 2005
        July 2005
        June 2005
        May 2005

        Syndication

        RSS Feed 2.0
        Comments RSS 2.0
        WordPress

        Loading


        * Rauner appoints board members at three universi.....
        * Reports: 9 dead from possible shootings in Texa.....
        * New SIU Board of Trustees appointed..
        * What does Rahm's rough week mean for suburban c.....
        * Gov. Rauner appoints West Side minister to coll.....
        * Rauner appoints board of trustee members at 3 s.....
        * CHILD CARE..
        * Green Light $175M In Tollway Deals..


        * State nears decision on proposed eastern Illinois coal mine
        * Rauner appoints board of trustee members at 3 state colleges
        * Hesburgh, former Notre Dame president, dies at 97
        * Rockton house fire kills 1, injures 1
        *
        * US court declines to decide Illinois' benefits issue
        * Illinois plan would aid Exelon nuclear plants
        * Trucker convicted in 2014 fatal Illinois Tollway crash
        * Southbound Interstate 65 reopens after semitrailer crashes
        * Park advocates: More time needed on Obama library decision

        * Lt. Gov. Sanguinetti says GOP should court women, Latinos
        * Explore salary information for the state of Illinois
        * State Rep. Raymond Poe to be back at work next week
        * State plan would aid Exelon nuclear plants
        * Sanguinetti says GOP should court women, Latinos
        * Federal appeals court declines to decide Chicago retiree benefits issue
        * Federal appeals court declines to decide Illinois retiree benefits issue
        * Federal appeals court declines to decide Illinois pension issue
        * Gov. Rauner says deal on budget powers is 'very close'; Cullerton spokeswoman says 'major issues' remain
        * Madigan again proposes constitutional amendment for 'millionaires tax'

        * Longtime Notre Dame president dies at 97
        * Former Notre Dame president dies
        * Billionaire developer Bluhm's favorite project
        * Lawmakers renew push for measures to stop invasive carp
        * US court declines to decide Illinois' benefits issue


          * February setting records for cold, snow -- but no top prize
          * Theodore Hesburgh, former Notre Dame president, dies at 97
          * Indiana may install 'baby boxes' for those giving up newborns
          * Firm gives up license to grow medical pot as patient approvals lag
          * Parents of slain journalist James Foley: U.S. should do more to aid hostages
          * Exelon-backed bill seeks $2 more a month for nuclear plants
          * Addams Tollway rebuilding project to begin next month
          * Pepper the black Lab saved from icy DuPage River
          * Major delays reported on the CTA Orange Line
          * Man charged in fatal Back of the Yards shooting


          * Unique Flavors
          * A Daily Realization
          * Chicago sets early voting record in last weekend before mayoral election
          * Standoff over new state school test continues
          * Medical Society Wants To Prevent Misuse Of Opiates
          * Child Care Providers Rally in Capitol
          * Travel And Learning Cultures Bring Us Closer
          * Author Discusses Volcano That Created Illinois, Frankenstein and Disease
          * Art Beat: Paintings, A Doc & Psychedelic Rock
          * Bedrock 66 Live! Features Celtic And Psychedelic Rock


          * Lt. Gov. Sanguinetti says GOP should court women, Latinos
          * Our Opinion: Turbulent times ahead for Illinois lawmakers
          * Fred Hayes: Illinois police support body cameras, but with tweaks to state law
          * E.J. Dionne: Chicago's Rahm-Chuy Show
          * Esther Cepeda: The captain of my family's ship
          * Quote of the Day: Friday, Feb. 27, 2015
          * Explore salary information for the state of Illinois
          * State Rep. Raymond Poe to be back at work next week
          * State plan would aid Exelon nuclear plants
          * Federal appeals court declines to decide Chicago retiree benefits issue


          * Legislation would increase Ameren bills
          * Crime blotter 2/28/15
          * House fire on West Monroe under control
          * Coroner's office at scene of Bloomington house fire
          * Director of Trial Advocacy Steve Beckett 2/27/15
          * Winter is sticking around longer
          * Winter is sticking around longer than we'd like
          * Boy, 13, recovering from gunshot wound to his head
          * Cahokia man convicted of felony domestic abuse
          * Bitter cold, snow and sleet expected for the weekend


          * Water pipeline move begins; costs $73 million
          * Commission recommends Grayslake extend special events contract with chamber
          * Suburban O'Hare Commission hires consultants to help battle airport noise
          * State nears decision on proposed eastern Illinois coal mine
          * Bridal web site features suburban vendors

          * Editorial: Is the Ice Cracking? | Transpor...
          * Rep. Lipinski Leads Letter Urging House Le...
          * Rep. Lipinski Announces $2.9 Million Feder...
          * Shortline tax credit legislation enters Ho...
          * Rep. Lipinski Announces STEM Education Gra...
          * Rep. Lipinski Helps Spur Launch of New Dep...
          * Short-line tax credit extension bill enter...
          * Private plane rides have bumpy congression...
          * Report: Schock Failed to Report London Gif...
          * The Amazing Adventures Of The Fabulous Aar...

          * How Obama is shrewdly using partisanship t......
          * Child poisonings from laundry detergent pa......
          * Netanyahu to hold bipartisan meeting with ......
          * Netanyahu to meet with McConnell, Reid aft......

          * Morning Plum: Homeland Security fight coul......
          * Local schools shine at Mallusk...
          * House Not Quite Ready To 'Suck It Up' Over......
          * Congress Will Vote On Homeland Security; A......
          * House bill could keep Homeland Security ag......

          * Overview of Thursday’s events at CPAC 2015
          * Starkehaus: Thursday at CPAC 2015
          * Country star Garth Brooks got $1,000,000 in incentives from Rosemont
          * Organizing and disorganizing adjuncts.
          * To Tom Balanoff and the SEIU: Join me in song.
          * The Weekend In Chicago Rock
          * Bill Kristol, E.J. Dionne talk about the role of government at the Univ. of Chicago
          * CEO of Illinois-based John Deere Challenged for prohibiting employee civic/political engagement
          * The Real War on Women: Global Human Rights Abuses and the Americans Who Ignore Them
          * Andrew Klavan: Good News, Beheaded Christians


          * 24th Anniversary Desert Storm Remembrance Ceremony
          * Illinois Department of Human Rights Announces 2015 Spring Training Schedule
          * Snow and Freezing Rain to Impact Travel in Illinois - IDOT Crews Prepared to Battle Winter Weather this Weekend
          * IDOR Begins Processing Individual Tax Returns
          * IEMA Awards $435,378 in Grants for Hazardous Materials Emergency Planning - Funds will help 33 Local Emergency Planning Committees enhance emergency plans, response to HazMat incidents




              Hosted by MCS SUBSCRIBE to Capitol Fax Advertise Here Mobile Version Contact Rich Miller