Question of the day
Thursday, Jul 18, 2019 - Posted by Rich Miller
* US Sens. Sanders and Duckworth reacted to the local Goodwill uproar…
* Washington Examiner…
Since the 1930s, employers have been able to ask the government for permission to pay people with disabilities less than the minimum wage as a way to get them into the workforce so they can build their skills and obtain more competitive work later. Oftentimes that transition doesn’t happen, however, resulting in wages that amount to only cents per hour.
Opponents view the exemption as archaic and say it’s time to phase it out, while proponents of the status quo fear that people with disabilities will lose work opportunities if that happens. In Illinois, for example, the president and CEO of Land of Lincoln Goodwill told workers with disabilities this week that they would no longer be getting paychecks because the state was moving toward a $15 minimum wage.
Through the waiver, employers are allowed to compensate workers based on their productivity level. For instance, if a worker without a disability is paid minimum wage to hang up 100 articles of clothing an hour, then someone with a disability who hangs up 50 articles of clothing an hour would be paid half the minimum wage.
An estimated 195,000 people are paid less than the minimum wage, and 2,000 employers use the subminimum wage waiver, called Section 14(c), that they obtain through the Department of Labor.
The [federal] Raise the Wage Act would set the subminimum wage at $4.25 within the first year of the bill becoming law, and then gradually increasing it every year for the next six years until it hits $15 an hour.
* WLDS highlights a local split…
Pete Roberts, Director of the Springfield Center for Independent Living, didn’t mince words about the news. “It just strikes me as an affront to people with disabilities who are often hired and can perform the essential functions of their job that are often the first people to be laid off by ignorant people.”
Roberts already feels like some of Goodwill’s practices are discriminatory towards disabled workers to begin with. “We are opposed to the sub-minimum wage laws that allow non-profits to pay less than the minimum wage to their employees. We feel that’s wrong. We have situations with people who are performing the same essential functions of a job alongside someone else who gets the minimum wage and they don’t. We feel like that’s a form of discrimination and are opposed to a sub-minimum wage.”
Steven Brundage, Executive Director of Pathway Services in Jacksonville would hope that Goodwill would be making the disabled community a priority. “People with disabilities should be a priority. They should find other ways to cut spending before they take it out on people with disabilities. I’m not exactly sure what their mission statement is but I would hope it would be people with disabilities are a priority.”
Brundage understands Goodwill’s position on having a federal minimum wage waver. He explains the situation that some non-profit organization’s like Pathway and Goodwill face with wages. “Sometimes it’s the only way we can afford to pay people that may have work skills that are very slow or they take a long time to learn a job. It’s the only way we can fiscally afford to offer a job to them.”
State legislators have attempted in the past to do away with the sub-minimum wage, but never succeeded.
* From last May…
Rock River Valley Self Help Enterprises, an Illinois nonprofit, billed itself as a vocational training program for people with disabilities. But it essentially operated as a subcontractor for local factories, providing menial tasks to workers with developmental disabilities, such as scraping debris from metal casts.
Last week, the Department of Labor took action against the company “after finding nearly 250 workers with disabilities were being exploited.” One of the ways they were being exploited? Self Help paid some workers with gift cards instead of money. […]
In addition to sometimes paying workers in gift cards, Self Help also paid them less than the minimum wage. Paying workers with disabilities in gift cards is unlawful; paying them a subminimum wage is legal. That’s because current law allows employers to pay as little as $1 per hour, or less, to workers with disabilities if they can’t perform a job as well as a person who is not disabled
* The Question: Should Illinois phase out the sub-minimum wage for workers with disabilities? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please…
online surveys
- in the middle - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:24 pm:
May not phase it out but certainly put a realistic “floor” on it. More than half, certainly.
- So_Ill - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:28 pm:
Voted no. I work with disabled people and parents of disabled adults and I have heard a lot of feedback from them and their parents who are worried their kids will lose their minimum wage jobs with this increase.
What I’ve heard in almost every case, the job isn’t for the paycheck, it’s for the disabled adult to feel like a productive member of society. It gets them out of the house and gives them something to do and to interact with others and the parents are worried they will lose that with the $15 dollar minimum wage.
The disability advocate community is actually very divided over this exact issue.
- Montrose - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:29 pm:
Yup. They are a paid worker getting stuff done for a company. The fact that you provide extra supports to them (if you are) doesn’t mean you can value their work less. It is as much about the substantive value of their work as it is treating them with the full dignity and respect they deserve.
- So_Ill - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:30 pm:
Furthermore, Social Security has income limits for people who are on disability and work. These are set nationally, and as the min wage rises, workers will either lose their hours, their jobs or their Social Security benefits.
- Alex - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:32 pm:
People with disabilities are human beings, and their labor is just as valuable as anyone else’s.
- lake county democrat - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:32 pm:
I don’t doubt So. Ill that there’s a debate about this, but everyone I know with a disabled child is very appreciative of these programs and wouldn’t want to do anything to risk them (so I voted no).
- Harvest76 - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:37 pm:
Voted yes. I’m not going to debate the value of their labor, but rather, the reality that businesses will pay as little as legally possible under all circumstances in a competitive capitalist system. This type of differentiation of Labor for ostensibly the same job creates incentive to abuse the labor of those that are least capable of defending their rights. That shouldn’t even be a possibility in today’s modern labor market. I’m not a libertarian or free market capitalist by any stretch of the imagination, but if they want to live and die by the Creed that the market will decide if your business is viable, then relying on paying people poverty wages to accomplish success seems like a warped implementation of that philosophy.
- Dirty Red - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:39 pm:
Minimum wage*
- Illinois Resident - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:41 pm:
Voted yes. As far as not getting jobs now because of the higher minimum wage, it seems that legislation could take care of that as well. We need to protect members of society that need help. That is how we build a better society.
- lakeside - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:46 pm:
I didn’t vote because I couldn’t pick an answer. I think the folks should be paid minimum wage (or better), but I think the federal government could also subsidize workers for companies that are employing folks with disabilities. My uncle derived a lot of joy from a job he had, but I also understand that if asked to treat it as a hard business decision that it’d be attractive to hire someone who was able to work faster than him, if you’re hiring a worker at the same rate.
I think we have to understand that there is a greater societal good inherent in both treating people with disabilities with respect and getting folks that can work into the workforce to learn skills, and we should fund that.
- Honeybear - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:48 pm:
Voted resounding YES
Wages are the life blood of every local economy.
You don’t thing disabled folks buy things?
They just put their earnings in a piggy bank.
No folks
They are just like all of us
They spend their money
It’s theirs to spend as they see fit.
I’m sure that most of it is spent locally as well.
Sharon Durbin must be fired
for her condescension to her disabled workers
National Goodwill
Did you know she said that?
“out of the ‘grace’ of her budget”
Are those your values?
The Durbins get fired in the next 24 hrs
Or
This gets kept alive and viral
Organized Labor gets involved
Chicago DSA gets involved
This scenario was tailor made for activism
Your ball
National Goodwill
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:48 pm:
===the federal government could also subsidize workers for companies===
It’s Goodwill’s entire raison d’etre.
- Anon E Moose - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:49 pm:
“We need to protect members of society that need help”
THIS ^^^
- Blue Dog Dem - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:50 pm:
Voted both yes and no.
No for everything that isnt a state contact.
Voted heck yes when a state contract is in play. Kinda prevailing wage like.
- Shemp - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:51 pm:
So_Ill is right on the mark. If you raise the wages to the growing minimum wage, so many will be put out of work.
It’s easy to want to pay a living wage or tweet outrage and a demand that everyone be paid a “living wage,” but keeping the doors open to these centers that provide an opportunity for the intellectually disabled to do something that allows them to feel productive and be a part of working society while doing that is near impossible.
- Three Dimensional Checkers - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:52 pm:
I voted yes because paying someone $1 an hour or $4.25 an hour is ridiculous even if they have a severe disability. It seems like this perform a job as well as a non-disabled person standard is ripe for abuse too. I am sure someone with a severe disability will start off doing a low skilled job poorly, but over time become as skilled as anyone else at the job. I wonder if anymore adjusts their pay when they become as skilled as anyone else at the position. But you are talking about the most severely disabled people here, so I am not sure what should replace the current system.
- Lucky Pierre - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:54 pm:
Just last week the non partisan congressional budget office forecast increasing the minimum wage nationally to $15 could cost 1.3 million jobs.
Do you think disabled workers will be immune to market forces?
- Waffle Fries - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:54 pm:
The U.S. Department of Labor just engaged in a nationwide dialogue on this topic:
https://14cdialogue.ideascale.com/
Perhaps there is utility in separating the decisions made by one organization from an underlying federal policy that was revisited and legislated on by the U.S. Congress and signed into law by President Obama in 2014.
https://www.doleta.gov/wioa/
- lakeside - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:55 pm:
==It’s Goodwill’s entire raison d’etre.==
I think I’m looking at it as an opposite kind of subsidy. Rather than allowing employers to pay less, pay workers the correct wage and let the government make up the difference. Not an expert on this issue, but my reading of the above is that the law as written - the benefit for employers is that they get to pay less to the worker, harming the worker. In the way I’m thinking about it, the feds would make up what they need to get to min wage. It’d be essentially neutral for the business.
- TopHatMonocle - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:55 pm:
In an ideal world I think they are entitled to the same pay as anyone else. But we’re not in an ideal world so I wouldn’t phase this out, as I do think it offers businesses a clear incentive to give the disabled a chance. However, they are underpaid by way too much. Raise the minimum so the difference is just a dollar or so from the existing minimum.
- Candy Dogood - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 12:58 pm:
Gave to them “through grace” now?
Hmm. Someone’s getting pretty high and mighty to be comparing themselves to God.
- cdog - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:03 pm:
I voted no. For at least 15 years, I have employed an “intellectually challenged” person, part time.
This person is a recipient of social security disability. She is only allowed to make so much money or her benefits are at risk. I have to submit data to the SSA periodically to verify that she doesn’t go over the income caps.
As the minimum wage increases, in order to not jeopardize her disability check, rent subsidy, etc., I will have to closely monitor this cap, and be prepared to possibly cut her hours to ensure she stays in all her programs. She doesn’t have the mental capacity to work 40 hrs at a “normal job” with “normal expectations.” And, no one should expect that from her.
Zooming out, this minimum wage increase is going to be dicey as a lot of folks will lose access to safety net programs and have to transition away from those life supports. Some will do well, others will struggle.
- Cheryl44 - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:04 pm:
I want to vote yes, but.
It’s a really complicated issue. I don’t want to pay people less than minimum wage, yet I want everyone who can work to find a job.
I see an excellent way for this chapter of Goodwill to save a ton of money–get rid of the Durbins.
- Ryan Salesman - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:10 pm:
If a DD person lives in a CILA they get like $55 dollars per month of thier social security and 50 percent of any earned income over $55. These are the Illinois DD rules. Any money they receive is spending money while the CILA agency is expected to cover all living costs. So im not sure in that case it would have the effect that you want.
Many of the DD folks that live in CILAs go to day programs or work programs. It appears that everyone wants to push them out of the work programs into idk what. Someone will have to take care of them and pay for it. Everyone expects that the state will just pay more but that seems laughable at this point.
- Morningstar - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:10 pm:
Yes. Respect and value labor.
- howdy - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:11 pm:
I find it fascinating that people who run huge deficits and in effect do involuntary borrowing from taxpayers have the gall to tell others how to run their operations. Possibly they should start dealing with their own organization, pay the pension debts, pay all of the old debts adn pay their bills on a 30 day cycle. Then they can tell others how they should do it.
- Oswego Willy - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:12 pm:
I don’t know enough.
I do know if the company is subsidized, then the minimum wage should be recognized.
So, all those going for the subsidy would feel the same impact in regards to that minimum wage.
The rest, I’m not clear. I need to read more on it.
- Hawg - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:18 pm:
Voted no, because most will lose their jobs if their employer has to pay a full wage.
- HorseShoe - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:22 pm:
I agree with Oswego Willy, I don’t know enough to say if it would help or hinder.
One thing to add though, if one group needed a union to help protect them it would be this group. Of course it might be hard to pay union dues with substandard wages and I’m sure there are other issues I’m missing with such a suggestion. but that story you posted about that company paying gift cards makes my blood boil Rich, and I’m sure they are not the only company taking advantage of them.
- A State Employee Guy - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:25 pm:
For those of you who voted no, please explain how paying someone less than others on the basis that they are disabled does not constitute discrimination.
- Honeybear - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:33 pm:
A State Employee Guy- yep, exactly
- So_Ill - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:38 pm:
==For those of you who voted no, please explain how paying someone less than others on the basis that they are disabled does not constitute discrimination.==
In my work with disabled adults and their parents, they have conveyed to me that they don’t do the same work as other employees and don’t necessarily want or feel entitled to the same pay. They strictly want to be part of the workforce and feel like everyone else who goes to a job every day and earns a paycheck. They want something to look forward to and want to get out of the house to interact with others.
For the people I work with, their main source of income is their Social Security Disability check, and if they get a pay raise to $15 dollars, they are either going to lose their job, get their hours severely cut or face losing their SSI and Medicare. There are strict limits on these programs and the limits aren’t set state by state or based on min. wage.
FWIW, I am a very strong advocate of a $15 minimum wage and a living wage. These complaints are complaints straight from the mouths of disabled adults and their parents and is something that is a real concern to a lot of them.
- T.S. - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:40 pm:
-For those of you who voted no, please explain how paying someone less than others on the basis that they are disabled does not constitute discrimination. -
If an individual with a developmental disability for example. The individual has the ability to work a cash register at a gas station. The individual has motor functioning issues and it takes said individual 45 minutes to assist a customer in their gas purchase as compared to an individual who is not limited in their abilities only takes them 3 minutes. This creates an undue hardship on the employer (angry customers, losing business, etc). This is an extreme example, but a good one to better understand sub-minimum wage. The individual is not able to work in a competitive nature, but is able to work. Hence- Sub-minimum wage.
I also advise anyone answering yes to visit their nearest Vocational Center, ask for the Community Employment Services representative and be willing to advocate to bridge opportunities for these sub-minimum wage individuals with your employer. This will better help you understand. It may also get you a great employee. Also, most will give you a tour. Please reserve judgement until you are willing to do this. Hopefully I am the one you meet as I would love to work with you.
- Scott Marriott - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:40 pm:
I voted yes, but I have to say that some of these organizations offer so much more than employment service. A few (or more), such as the Valley Sheltered Workshop in Batavia are basically daytime homes for the severally learning disabled in the community. Yes there is a job aspect, but I remember the many social experiences they provided to their “employees” in my childhood. To frame this discussion simply about hourly wage is too narrow.
- 4 percent - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:47 pm:
@Ryansalesman is spot on.
Mu uncle is developmentally disabled but washed dishes at a downstate hotel. He literally could wash 4-5 per hour. Not productive compared to “regular” employees but it gave him a purpose and he was proud of it.
However, he is also on state aid and only able to have so much money to remain eligible for the various benefits. So be very careful because hiking pay could also jeopardize some of their other state or federal aid and/or require them to pay more money.
- A Jack - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 1:50 pm:
I voted yes. It used to be the excuse to pay women less than men because a woman couldn’t keep up a man’s pace. Wage discrimination against the disabled seems to be using the same tired old arguments.
- Generic Drone - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 2:01 pm:
No. The disabled community needs these jobs. Lets not risk them. However it appears Goodwill needs to be named Illwill.
- Seats - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 2:01 pm:
I voted ‘no’ until the state or federal gov find a way to make up the difference. Employers in many cases are doing a favor, I don’t want to see that no longer happen.
I’d be good with raising it so long as the employees are made whole.
- Thomas Paine - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 2:14 pm:
Voted No.
Anyone telling you that paying people with disabilities a minimum wage is a bad thing is filling your head with reefer madness.
Thanks to the leadership of Randy Lewis, about five years ago Walgreens committed to hiring people with disabilities with a goal of filling 10 percent of their workforce. They reached that goal ahead of schedule, providing workers with disabilities with the exact same pay and benefits.
They not only found that workers with disabilities can do their jobs just as well with a little accomodation, but that they have lower work comp claims, lower turnover rates, and are more timely and use fewer sick days.
So, they’ve doubled their goal to 20 percent of their work force.
Companies or nonpfrofits pushing the narrative that people with disabilities are employable only if you provide them with substandard wages are pushing a false narrative that — coincidentally or not — pads their bottom line.
Have no fear, parents, there is a Walgreens near you hiring, I am sure.
- Papa2008 - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 2:15 pm:
Certainly we should phase out the subminimum wage. But only if the state will pony up and pay these organizations a reasonable amount to provide services to these individuals in the first place. The state of Illinois is abysmal in their support of people with disabilities.
- A State Employee Guy - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 2:31 pm:
T.S.: in your admittedly extreme example, that employee at the gas station is putting in labor to accomplish that task, the same as any other employee. He or she should be compensated as such.
A much more realistic example involve sheltered workshops, where companies with 14(c) certificates pay sub minimum wage to disabled laborers who perform their work. Workers who don’t have disabilities have to compete against this almost costless labor, driving their wages down in turn.
This impacts all workers.
- Responsa - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 2:34 pm:
It really matters what the disability is, doesn’t it? It’s so much more than about the money for many disabled workers. It’s about the social interaction and pride of a job, having a name tag, and often a uniform. Most customers are happy to see disabled workers being employed and most of us are more than willing to extend patience and understanding if these folks are a little slower or a bit less efficient than other workers there. Still, companies are there to serve customers. And workers with some certain disabilities can and do require additional supervision or accommodation. It seems that taking the sub-minimum wage incentive away completely might not work in favor of hiring more disabled employees.
- I Miss Bentohs - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 2:38 pm:
On the Westside of Springfield is the best and cheapest place to eat lunch. The employees there are all disabled (accept their managers) and it is all done thru HOPE. The workers are learning and I love supporting them but some are severely challenged and they cannot pay all of them at $15/hour, so I voted no.
If on the westside of Springfield and looking for a good (and healthy) lunch, visit this place on Koke Mill Road.
- DIstant watcher - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 3:02 pm:
In this instance, maybe the state can put salary requirements in to those contracts this Goodwill has been getting.
Hard to type the name of that place without a strong irony meter going off. They’ve squandered any goodwill they had on this mess.
- Anonymous - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 3:28 pm:
Generally I think that a disabled person likely has higher life costs as they probably have more healthcare costs and it is hard to imagine living on less than minimum wage. I understand the idea of job training and productivity but think they should really either get the minimum wage or pretty close to it.
- zatoichi - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 3:38 pm:
The DOL website shows the vast majority of 14c certificate holders are community rehab providers. 14c allows CRPs to pay people with a disability regardless of their work speed or ability. If a job pays $10 hr to do 100 items, the cost per item is $0.10 each. If a person working at their fastest pace can only do 25 items of the same items in an hour, the cost per item is $0.40 each. Under 14c a CRP can pay based on work completed. Without 14c, workers must be paid at least minimum wage regardless of what they have done. So do you hire the 100% worker who can produce the 100 pieces for $10 or do you hire four 25% workers who can produce the same 100 items for $40. Take ‘disability’ out of the discussion. How long would most people working at 25% of the expected performance stay employed in a community setting?
14c allows CRPs to hire the 100% and 25% worker.
Take away 14c/mandate minimum wage regardless of productivity and large numbers of the 25% worker group will never work again. Having a community job is great for people who can do it. 14c provides another option
- Thomas Paine - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 4:05 pm:
Pardon my earlier typo, I voted Yes.
“If we raise wages, people will not qualify for government benefits” was a dumb argument when the GOP used it against a living wage, and it is still a dumb argument when used against giving a living wage to people with disabilities.
Trust them to manage their benefit eligibility, or better yet press feds to raise the thresholds if it makes sense.
That ostensible advocates for people with disabilities are using the same argument as opponents of the living wage ought to give you pause.
- Boone's is Back - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 4:10 pm:
Yes- everyone deserves to be playing on a level playing field.
- MG85 - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 4:12 pm:
It hurts me to no end knowing we have to debate whether or not to treat Americans the same regardless of whether or not they have a disability.
I voted an emphatic yes. I stand, as always, with the workers.
#Solidarity
- Robert the Bruce - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 4:43 pm:
The Yes votes make for an easy slogan (Solidarity and equality!), but I’m just worried how some disabled folks will suffer if they are suddenly out of a job if this passes.
I know one family who is scared of this happening to their family member.
Perhaps the difference can be shrunk so that the minimum is higher now, but still attractive to employers. I’m not convinced with some of the math productivity arguments, since labor cost is only one cost of production.
- Cornfused - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 4:45 pm:
So lets say… We raise the min wage for 14c certificates. The person currently gets $900 a month in social security and makes $55 a month at the workshop. Out of that Per CILA rules the person gets $110 spending money per month. The rest gets paid to the provider to pay for all living expenses (living Wages) and the special care that they receive.
The wage increases to $15. They wouldn’t get social security any more so the provider would be picking this up.. maybe the state will pay more. but they aren’t getting federal money any more. They would also stop getting food stamps. The state maybe if they are really generous decides to pay the provider more.. they lost the social security.
So I guess the end result would be that they would get living and health care costs paid for by the provider, $15 min wage on top of that.. provider gets 50% over $55 of earned income back to them that they paid out to the person.. and all of the social service providers would be demanding more money from the state to provide the services required for the disabled.
- Center Right - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 5:06 pm:
Acknowledging that LL Goodwill’s actions are indefensible, transitioning the thousands of people who work in sub-minimum wage settings to competitive employment will require an investment of resources the state has so far been unwilling to make. Illinois ranks 47th lowest in the nation in investment in community services; hopefully the outrage this issue has raised will be channeled into a corresponding investment in services to support people with disabilities to participate fully in every aspect of their community.
- Enviro - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 5:19 pm:
Should Illinois phase out the sub-minimum wage for workers with disabilities?
Yes. Many workers with disabilities will add considerably more value than those without disabilities.
- MyTwoCents - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 5:21 pm:
After reading the comments I had to vote no. I’ve seen some legitimate concerns about the effects a higher minimum wage would have on disability payments, Medicare, the number employed, etc. However, I have yet to see any decent rebuttal to those concerns and the impact an increase in the minimum wage would have disabled workers.
- Enviro - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 5:22 pm:
Solidarity.Equality.Fairness
- Chicago 20 - Thursday, Jul 18, 19 @ 9:41 pm:
I voted yes. Minimum wage should be the minimum wage in all cases, no exceptions for anyone including restaurants.