57 Comments - Pundent - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 12:55 pm: The opponents of the fair tax have done an effective job of framing this as a “tax hike.” And who likes a tax hike? Nobody. Of course that completely distorts who’s taxes are being hiked. But throw a phony tax on retirement income in the mix and it just might be enough to defeat this. And you can always count on a decent percentage of voters who believe that if we don’t move to a fair tax the state will have no choice but to “live within its means.” Because those folks don’t know or care where the revenue goes. They only know that it doesn’t benefit them personally. - Really - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:01 pm: Pair this with an earnest and publicized effort to reduce expenses. Pair this with an effort to cut pension growth. Pair this with a lockbox that all new revenues go to pay past due bills and not as handouts to public employees or for new programs. Those things would help. Until then, many of your citizens DON’T TRUST any of you and will vote no even if it might be against their best interests. You can pooh-pooh that all you want, but if this gets defeated it will be because people do not trust our politicians to do the right thing with new funds. - phocion - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:02 pm: This measure is in deep trouble mainly because Springfield has done almost nothing in recent decades to earn the public’s trust. The sort of cynicism that has kept the current system in place is now creating the climate where folks just will not believe this measure won’t hit them, and not just wealthy residents. Corruption, incompetence, arrogance - are all baked into public perception of how Springfield operates. Hard to blame voters who are skeptical when this same group says “Trust Us.” - Mixer - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:05 pm: Nobody has a state-based adjusted gross income of $100 million. Even Pritzker only had income of $4 million even though he’s worth $3.5 billion. He has an army of lawyers to shield his income. But yeah, he wants “fair” taxes. - Arock - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:05 pm: Really- there past mismanagement of the pension problems and tax increases and their own corruption means they deserve very little trust for those on either side of the aisle. - Grandson of Man - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:05 pm: It’s blatantly dishonest when super rich anti tax interests and their media supporters push bogus talking points via non-rich spokespeople. All those lies, that the middle class will be hurt, small businesses will be crushed and retirement income will be taxed, are meant to distract from the real reasons of opposition—opponents don’t want to lose their sweet tax deal and don’t want to pay more. - Really - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:07 pm: One more thing. This doesn’t impact our family financially if we vote yes and one of the adults in our house is a public school teacher in this state. We are both voting no. We do not trust those who will be in charge of spending this money And will be beginning our search shortly for an area to retire in. It will not be in Illinois. - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:09 pm: === Pair this with an earnest and publicized effort to reduce expenses.=== For the 53rd time, maybe it’ll sink in… that’s not what’s on the ballot. You know that, you’ve been told that, yet… === Pair this with an effort to cut pension growth.=== No 71, 36. Again, you know, but are willfully ignorant or blissfully unaware, and wholly disingenuous to any discussion to the fair tax because of it. === public employees or for new programs.=== This is the Bruce Rauner “no budget, hurt folks” part of your… compromise? Not everyone is an enemy, not every program is designed to personally anger you, yet here you are. ===it will be because people do not trust our politicians to do the right thing with new funds.=== No, lol… nope. If it fails, it’ll be because the Frerichs Tax (a wholly made up straw man built and advocated by Frerichs) defeated the mere notion of a Fair Tax. How do i know? See any ads about “public employees or for new programs”? See any ads about the Frerichs Tax (taxing retirement income) Why do you think that is? - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:10 pm: === We are both voting no.=== Can’t help the foolish. When your taxes do rise, you’ll be the very first to comment and complain. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:11 pm: ===Nobody has a state-based adjusted gross income of $100 million=== I’m betting Ken Griffin would argue with you. But, fine, just move a decimal over a spot or two. Same dif. - Donnie Elgin - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:13 pm: = [billionaires spent millions on misleading propaganda to persuade] people to not trust our politicians= Have you seen the federal corruption headlines lately? That distrust of elected officials has been brewing for years in Illinois. The Billionaires are simply adding to the chorus. - RNUG - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:15 pm: The blunt truth is the State needs more revenue. You don’t find $5B or $6B (about 15%) of waste / fraud / abuse to cut in a $37B budget. If we assume additional revenue is a given, then the only question is WHO gets taxed. You can either put the entire new tax burden on the better off / wealthy or you can put it on the middle class (however you wish to define that group). And even if it eventually reaches down to the middle class brackets (I’ll define that as $50K - $250K), under a graduated tax the middle class would still pay less than under a higher flat tax. I have to admit the anti-tax groups have done a better messaging job. - Jocko - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:18 pm: ==There is evidence that the tax hike amendment could eventually raise taxes== …and I 𝘤𝘰𝘶𝘭𝘥 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘶𝘢𝘭𝘭𝘺 reach an income level where 500K is chump change, but whatevs. - yinn - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:28 pm: I’ve explained to several people over the past week why I think it’s unlikely the graduated income tax would “open the door” to taxing pensions. Most seemed thoughtful about it, but the couple adamant ones did not share their reasoning, I noticed. - Al - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:34 pm: State employees routinely spike their pensions with phony over-time. The State is over staffed and under managed. The buildings are half empty and half of the computer contracts are phony too. Sorry to disagree with RNUG who I respect much, but there is room for material savings if we ever had a Governor concerned about basic management. If you are so bored you invite multiple times a week people you do not supervise to play board games in your office, then you and those playing board games from home do not deserve pension spiking phony overtime. Remember folks, wealthy people do not get a W2 statement from their employer stating their income. Their tax attorney prepares the return with the assistance of a team of CPAs. I still do not see the rates and brackets as being enough to bring the dough. The new statutes eliminate exemptions and standard deductions so working people will pay tax on their first dollar which is wrong. - thoughts matter - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:50 pm: = And you can always count on a decent percentage of voters who believe that if we don’t move to a fair tax the state will have no choice but to “live within its means.” Because those folks don’t know or care where the revenue goes. They only know that it doesn’t benefit them personally.== Actually they don’t ‘know’ that. They just think that. They think that new, improved or just maintained infrastructure( roads, bridges. railways, etc. are somehow paid for with cotton candy. They think their doctor graduated from a high school of college not supported by their taxes. They think they will never need meals on wheels or a public hospital or a Medicaid nursing home- and that their parents won’t either. They benefit, they just refuse to believe it because they think it should be provided for free when they need it and not for anyone else. Only Conservatives should get government resources. - thoughts matter - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:55 pm: Al - have you made your phone call to the inspector general to report these things? All of them are not routine, they are all unethical. If you see something, say something. It’s the ethical thing to do. There are 50,000+ employees / how many do you personally know do this? Name them. - Jibba - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:57 pm: Al, when you start your argument with three sentences of untruths, I know that facts won’t be helpful to you. - Streator Curmudgeon - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 1:59 pm: So when I see all the small business owners in the anti-Fair Tax commercials saying how it will decimate them, I’m wondering, are they in the three percent who’ll see an increase or are they just plain lying? - From the 'Dale to HP - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:02 pm: I don’t know if middle class taxes will go up in the next five years if the fair tax is passed. I do know that middle class taxes will go up in the next five years if the fair tax is not passed. So if you want to increase your own taxes, vote against the fair tax. - Dutch - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:16 pm: One of the issues that doesn’t get a lot of attention is that if this does pass, it allows the state to raise taxes more silently for awhile. If it doesn’t pass, then tax increases will be uniform on income for everyone and the state will have to take heat for it from the media and taxpayers. Why does that matter? Well, in my opinion it delays the reckoning of necessary fiscal reforms most state agencies need to address as well as the low percent of funding for government pensions of all kind. It buys the state a few more years of pushing off needed reforms. I just can’t for any tax changes until the state addresses the systemic issues in IDES, DCFS, IDVA, IDOT, etc. - JRP - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:18 pm: I am willing to vote no on the progressive tax amendment just to see if they can get enough votes for a general increase of the flat tax. The state needs the income but I don’t think the Dems have the political willingness to put the votes on a tax increase for everyone during a pandemic and economic downturn….. So no to the fair tax .. put the 71-36 on a tax increase for everyone and let JB sign it. - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:26 pm: === put the 71-36 on a tax increase for everyone and let JB sign it.=== They’ll only need 60 and 30 if Pritzker signs, saving 14 HDems (probably many more after November, lol) and 10 SDems They’ll run on the stuff Raunerites rarely support; Funding social services, higher education, senior services… pay for police on the street… Checkers… Chess… Raunerites are weak minded and feeble in thinking funding services that Illinoisans want… polls well. - From DaZoo - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:27 pm: Fun with Numbers = Missed Opportunity? Last night I played around with a spreadsheet and the brackets. In comparing the two, the break point (where same amount of incomes taxes are paid in either scenario) is at an income (AGI) of $252,340. However, as Gov and Lt. Gov pointed out, if the amendment fails and the flat tax goes from 4.95 to 5.95 then the break point moves up to an income of $392,500. Would this get a few more people to think about it? Honestly I’m just concerned the message from the anti-amendment folks have produced sufficient misinformation on the topic while the pro-amendment folks have been too quiet. - Montrose - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:29 pm: Dutch: “One of the issues that doesn’t get a lot of attention is that if this does pass, it allows the state to raise taxes more silently for awhile.” There is no such thing as silently raising taxes. Do you see how much money is being spent to try to stop the Fair Tax? Do you think those folks are going to be quiet if the legislature tries to hike taxes again? - Montrose - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:31 pm: “I am willing to vote no on the progressive tax amendment just to see if they can get enough votes for a general increase of the flat tax. The state needs the income but I don’t think the Dems have the political willingness to put the votes on a tax increase for everyone during a pandemic and economic downturn….. So no to the fair tax .. put the 71-36 on a tax increase for everyone and let JB sign it.” I am so confused by this logic. The state needs the money, but you won’t support a progressive way to raise the money because you want to test if the legislature will raise the money in a regressive manner. huh? - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:39 pm: === I am willing to vote no on the progressive tax amendment just to see if they can get enough votes for a general increase of the flat tax.=== Adults know this isn’t a game, but the silly or frivolous see this CA as a mere political game, not at all concerned about the state. The disconnect here is… wow. === more silently for awhile.=== Describe silently. === Well, in my opinion it delays the reckoning of necessary fiscal reforms most state agencies need to address as well as the low percent of funding for government pensions of all kind. It buys the state a few more years of pushing off needed reforms=== Reforms? Is that you Bruce Rauner. Rauner was the same governor who vetoed a tax hike “because reforms”, but begged for an override (while being utterly confused to the needed vote count to help him, lol) and spent every dime… of that tax increase. What’s on the ballot… is on the ballot. Dorm room silly isn’t being decided. === the message from the anti-amendment folks have produced sufficient misinformation on the topic…=== The idea of silence, from June thru August was painful, when “97% no raise in taxes” wasn’t engrained in the conversation, allowed for the Frerichs Tax to be a louder discussion, the dishonest talk versus the honest discussion. Yep, tough. ===…while the pro-amendment folks have been too quiet.=== They’re making noise. They’re also answering the Frerichs Tax noise too, making a clearer message tougher. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:43 pm: ===because you want to=== Don’t feed the trolls. - City Zen - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:46 pm: How is this news? We’ve known for well over a year that millionaire’s will pay a flat rate of 7.99% on every dollar of income under the Fair Tax. To a millionaire, there is no graduated tax rate. It’s a 3 percentage point flat tax hike. Any flat tax hike less than 3 percentage points is a win for them. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:47 pm: ===How is this news?=== You’ve seen it somewhere else? - Bruce( no not him) - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:49 pm: But, as a retired person it will raise my taxes. I seen it on the tv. /S - Interim Retiree - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:52 pm: I am amazed how some people think. “I don’t trust the politicians that get their money from the rich so when the rich campaign against the Fair Tax, I need to be against the Fair Tax.” JB is the ONE rich person for the tax vs. so many others. Farmers blindly following the Farm Bureau’s Corporate stance despite the average farmer making 2/3 less than $250,000. “I won’t report the couple of state workers that aren’t working but am willing to penalize the whole state so it can’t pay bills - then complain that the state is poorly run.” ARRGGHH (banned punctuation) - Sarah Smile - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:54 pm: “We’ve known for well over a year that millionaire’s will pay a flat rate of 7.99% on every dollar of income under the Fair Tax. ” Zen, Could you point to the language on the ballot initiative that spells that out? From my reading, I’m not seeing that specific language. Rather, it’s an open door to tax however, and whoever they would like. - Wordsmith - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 2:59 pm: === The opponents of the fair tax have done an effective job of framing this as a “tax hike.” === The proponents of the Amendment framed it as a tax hike too. They just tried to frame it as a tax hike on the Top Three Percent. Framing this debate around tax rates, and encouraging folks to think as Individualists about how amending the Constitution would benefit them personally was the Original Sin. Proponents should have been pushing a Collectivist’ Frame focused on what is best for all of Illinois. Instead, they picked a battle ground that naturally favors Republican thinking. You can’t accuse the 3 percent of being selfish when you have encouraging the 97 percent to be selfish since Day Zero. They might still eke this one out just on pure turnout, but Whomever dreamed up this messaging really botched it. It would be a grave mistake for Democrats to pass a flat tax without any GOP votes. Start closing downstate prisons and universities in GOP districts and see if that wakes anyone up. - Pundent - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 3:04 pm: =“I don’t trust the politicians that get their money from the rich so when the rich campaign against the Fair Tax, I need to be against the Fair Tax.”= The rich thank one and all for their generosity and willingness to pitch in to help them out. - Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 3:04 pm: (Sigh) === It would be a grave mistake for Democrats to pass a flat tax without any GOP votes.=== The point of the exercise is 60 and 30, the bipartisan part of those numbers are a bonus, rarely a requirement… unless some horse trading can happen, and Raunerites are the party of “No” on this. ===Start closing downstate prisons and universities in GOP districts and see if that wakes anyone up.=== No Governor from Chicagoland, a Democrat, would do such a thing, but that same Governor will isolate those members when finding them for ribbon cutting or press releases come out touting those things. Governors open buildings, not close them for spite. - Al - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 3:06 pm: Pardon me Interim Retiree, but JB is not a rich W2 income earner. He is wealthy. There is a distinction between Rich and Wealthy you are failing to understand. - Huh? - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 4:05 pm: “The buildings are half empty” Can’t speak for other agencies, but it is likely that all IDOT buildings are virtually vacant, because in March they were told to work home. Working in the office is based on need only. - Huh? - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 4:12 pm: Al - state employees playing board or card games during their breaks and lunch hour is completely legit. Do you know for sure that people were playing games was during work hours that were not break or lunch times? If so, call the OEIG or the employee’s supervisor and report it. - Huh? - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 4:18 pm: “The simple difference between a rich person and a wealthy person is that a wealthy person has sustainable wealth. In other words, a wealthy person will always be wealthy, whereas someone who is merely rich will only be so for a short period of time until the money is gone. … Wealthy people know how to make money.” I wouldn’t mind being rich for a while. Being wealthy wouldn’t hurt either. Am wondering, what is the dollar amount between rich and wealthy? - Phil King - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 4:50 pm: The mental gymnastics here are impressive. Rich, have you considered that as Governor of Illinois, with the power to sign or veto legislation, Pritzker does not have to raise ANYONE’S taxes? Who do you think is forcing him to do this? - Mama - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 4:51 pm: How many people in IL have a state-based adjusted gross annual income is $100-million? - Phil King - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 4:53 pm: And to the title of your post, are you seem to be implying that either Pritzker is not wealthy or that he prefers flat taxes to his own plan. Very confusing. Next post should be about why the wealthy are spending nearly $60 million to promote this if they don’t like it. - Huh? - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 5:16 pm: “wealthy are spending nearly $60 million to promote this if they don’t like it.” Spend a little short term to save a lot long term. The amount of money being spent, by the wealthy, opposing the fair tax amendment is pennies found in a car ash tray. - Unconventionalwisdom - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 5:25 pm: Love how the terms “rich, wealthy, middle income etc”. are tossed about with no definition by those using such terms. It makes the discussion far, far less meaningful. - Last Bull Moose - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 5:43 pm: Raise the flat tax to 8%. Increase the standard deduction to protect the low income. Set the exemption at a level where the state collects more than currently proposed. State needs more money anyway. Legislative turnover is high enough that most GA members are not significantly shortening their careers. Act quickly and you have 2 years before the next election. - Skeptic - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 5:45 pm: “Governors open buildings, not close them for spite. ” “Governors who aren’t thrown in jail or run out of town with double-digit losses open buildings, not close them for spite.” There, fixed that for you. - thoughts matter - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 6:16 pm: = I am willing to vote no on the progressive tax amendment just to see if they can get enough votes for a general increase of the flat tax. The state needs the income but I don’t think the Dems have the political willingness to put the votes on a tax increase for everyone during a pandemic and economic downturn….. So no to the fair tax .. put the 71-36 on a tax increase for everyone and let JB sign it.== Veto session is after the election. A bill can be passed and signed pretty swiftly then if needed. 2022 is a long time away. Before you say that won’t happen, the rate was not always 4.95%. That was a raise in taxes and it was done pretty swiftly when it needed to be. - Al - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 6:39 pm: Huh? After a two hour lunch the board games begin during work hours. The guards are at State buildings so people will not wander in and realize they are empty. I have been in many office buildings and none but one was more than half full. The one full building was really crowded it was the building on capitol and fifth and former representative Oblinger was the director of the new Department of Aging. Or was it Hasara? Hmm. Anyway, they have better digs now. As an auditor and as a financial and computer expert I have have been in dozens of State buildings in Springfield Chicago and elsewhere. Here is a question for the day. I will email Rich the answer. How can you tell the difference between a State owned building and a private rented building? - Willowglen - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 6:52 pm: I am not into this political back and forth. Pass the CA, collect, or so many think, an extra 3.4 B annually, and the State still has intractable financial problems. The revenue raised doesn’t even come close to satisfying the bill backlog. What then? What is the plan? Tax those with over 1 million in income at 25 percent? Good luck keeping them in the state. My mentor, a tax professor married to a Supreme Court Justice, used to remind us that the money available to the fisc is in the middle class because there are so many more of them. Is he wrong? What is different about Illinois? Raises taxes if they must, but what is the solution? The State is insolvent. - Whatever - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 7:11 pm: Al at 10:34 ==The new statutes eliminate exemptions and standard deductions so working people will pay tax on their first dollar which is wrong.== Where do you get this from? And as a hint as to why I doubt your source, if there is one - Illinois has never had a standard deduction. - Jocko - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 7:23 pm: ==The revenue raised doesn’t even come close to satisfying the bill backlog== Ask your mentor if he’s familiar with Voltaire’s “the best is the enemy of the good.” - Chatham Resident - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 7:38 pm: ==Can’t speak for other agencies, but it is likely that all IDOT buildings are virtually vacant, because in March they were told to work home. Working in the office is based on need only.== All Secretary of State employees have been back to work in the offices (including drivers’ facilities) since June 1. They were the first constitutional office to return all their workers back after the shutdown. No one is working remotely at Secretary of State now. - Grandson of Man - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 7:54 pm: If CA fails and we raise the flat tax, a likely scenario, we will have been “clever by half” financially, opposing giving Springfield politicians more money and winding up giving Springfield more of our money. That’s almost comical. We have been saturated in ads, including one with a Republican, telling us the vast majority will get a tax cut. Many should be very aware of this. - Jibba - Wednesday, Oct 14, 20 @ 8:23 pm: ==Love how the terms “rich, wealthy, middle income etc”. are tossed about with no definition by those using such terms.== There are plenty. Here’s one: “Pew Research Center defines the middle class as all households with incomes between two-thirds and twice the national median.” If you make less than this, you are lower income. If you make more, you are upper income. $250K+ is clearly upper income, like top 3%. Look elsewhere for splitting hairs on rich vs wealthy. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 15, 20 @ 7:03 am: === The revenue raised doesn’t even come close to satisfying the bill backlog. What then?=== Likely deep cuts, painful cuts. === Good luck keeping them in the state.=== Saving the wealthy isn’t a plan either. If that’s your plan, that’s as silly as anything exampled. ===The State is insolvent.=== It’s not. It’s ability to raise revenue, Illinois can get revenues, it’s choosing not to, and any judge facing a case that Illinois is insolvent would retort back “why haven’t you raised taxes?” So… there’s that. - Steely - Thursday, Oct 15, 20 @ 7:47 am: We are voting NO. State government has proven it can’t be trusted with our tax dollars. State government needs to be reduced, not expanded. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.