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* Peoria’s Catholic Bishop Daniel Jenky is not happy at all that the state has refused to contract with Catholic Charities for adoption and foster care services. In fact, he’s pretty darned upset…
Bishop Jenky pointed out that religious accommodations have been granted in states such as New York and Rhode Island regarding their establishment of civil unions. His Aug. 18 statement expressed sadness that “important elements of the political establishment in the state of Illinois are now basically at war with the Catholic community and seem to be destroying their institutions.” [Emphasis added]
Um, wow.
* In other news about religion and state, Secretary of State Jesse White is not happy about a new Illinois law that allows him to issue state identification cards without photos. The proposal was pushed to benefit the Amish, who have religious objections to photography…
“How do you use this document as a form of identification?” White said during an interview at the Illinois State Fair “You match the name with the face. I don’t see how that could take place without a picture.”
State Rep. Adam Brown, a Decatur Republican, pushed for the legislation during the spring legislative session. He said Amish leaders in Central Illinois wanted the exemption because of religious convictions about having their pictures taken. […]
Brown said he wants to work with White and the Illinois State Police to move forward with the idea. He has suggested the state police develop a separate, nonpublic database for Amish and other religious groups that could be called up to verify people opting against getting the pictures on the ID cards.
“I think an internal system could work very well,” Brown said. “We’ve also discussed using fingerprints. We definitely want to build safeguards into it.”
Thoughts?
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 11:51 am
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Using the CC logic, if the Amish want a state issued ID, they have to take the picture, right?
Comment by Cincinnatus Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:03 pm
this is kind of interesting, since i once heard a catholic charities representative explain that they got into adoption because there were other entities that discriminated against catholic families. i wonder if any of the agencies that remain on the approved adoption and child services list discriminate against any potential family. if so, then they have a legitimate beef. but, if not, then who cares?
Comment by bored now Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:10 pm
“important elements of the political establishment in the state of Illinois are now basically at war with the Catholic community and seem to be destroying their institutions.”
Turn the drama down a notch Juliet.
Comment by just sayin' Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:11 pm
The Bible is pretty clear when it says we must respect our leaders. In Illinois, civil unions are now legal and a judge ruled in favor of the state in this battle. No one passed a bill of retainer against the Catholic Church.
Comment by Team Sleep Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:14 pm
Okay, ask Mr. Brown how does he feel about Muslim women wearing veils on their ID’s? Perhaps we could have the AMish fund a sketch artist to go from SOS facility sketching thier pictures. Horrible idea.
Bishop what’s his name takes himself too seriously. I agree that they should continue to be able to get state business. But the RC church has been intent on destroying itself for the past few years.
Comment by Wumpus Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:17 pm
ask the Bishop why he wants to discriminate when it comes to his adoption and foster care business…yes it is a business….they want the cash they need to follow the same rules everyone else does.
Rep. Brown is probably not for nonAmish non photo i.d.s
Comment by CircularFiringSquad Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:20 pm
“At war”? Really? Talk about over the top rhetoric. You’d think the Catholic Charities spokesperson worked for Mike Madigan.
Comment by DuPage Dave Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:21 pm
Who are the “important elements”?
Comment by InTheMiddle Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:32 pm
I think the SOS needs to at least try to implement non-picture IDs. I know it is inconvenient and difficult, but I am also not comfortable with the government forcing citizens to have their picture taken when it is against their religious beliefs (even if most of us find that silly).
Comment by Just Observing Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:38 pm
I remember not having a picture on my first few drivers licenses.
Comment by Cheryl44 Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:46 pm
I used to live in California, and they require a thumbprint to get a drivers license. Maybe those with religious objections to photographs can get their thumbprint printed in the corner where the picture goes.
The Catholic Charities issue is different. There is no civil right associated with a government contract, so it is legitimate for the state to ask contractors not to discriminate and to uphold state law. The Diocese has to decide what’s more important, the money or the right to follow its beliefs.
Comment by lakeview Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:50 pm
“We definitely want to build safeguards into it” tells you all you need to know about Brown pushing this bill. He didn’t think about it, he just threw it in to please a constituency.
And, how exactly would his fingerprints idea work? That does nothing for me as a shop owner or businessperson who wants to check the legitimacy of the ID card. Am I supposed to invest in fingerprint scanning technology? Who is to say I cannot print a million of these and hand them out to kids to buy beers at the liquor store?
And, besides such a system being ripe for abuse, why should I, an Illinois citizen, be required to support (via tax dollars) a preference given by law to a religious denomination?
Comment by PrecinctCaptain Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 12:52 pm
Maybe this is a silly question but for what purpose do the Amish need a state ID? They don’t drive, don’t go to bars. When would they need a gov’t issued id?
Comment by girlawyer Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 1:08 pm
@girlawyer,
They may not drive, but they are not forbidden from say getting loans, opening up bank accounts, some have cell phones, some have phone’s in their workshops, etc.
In many places you need a state issued id to sign up for those services.
Comment by How Ironic Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 1:16 pm
Lost in the mix is that CC uses donations to cover part of the cost of their operations, they are not 100% funded, so the State has bnefited from this subsidy.
On the Amish, why not just use a fingerprint? Fingerprint readers are dirt cheap. Encode the print on the card and have them place a finger on a reader which confirms the fingerprint is the one encoded on the ID card. This is probably better then a picture since many people have similiar faces or can disguise themselves to match somone elses photo…but fingerprints are unique
Comment by Ghost Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 1:31 pm
Lighten up, Bishop.
Comment by Highland, IL Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 1:39 pm
Yes, requiring the Catholic Church to follow state law if it wants state money to provide a service is the definition of war. They should be free to discriminate against anyone they want. After all, that’s what Jesus would do. He was big on that sort of thing.
Regarding the Amish, while I am sympathetic to their beliefs regarding having their picture taken, I think the same principle applies: if they want a state ID, they too must abide by state law. No one is forcing them to get an ID, just like no one is forcing the Church to do anything. You want a state ID, you have to get your picture taken. You want state money, you have to follow state law. Sorry.
Comment by TwoFeetThick Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 1:40 pm
Yeah Bp. Jenky! I agree that no entity has “property rights” to a state contract, but that doesn’t seem like the correct basis for a decision in this case. I’d like to similarly see Planned Parenthood denied govt money by courts.
This is all about the “bait and switch” that the civil union sponsors and state officials have pulled. It was asserted that foster and adoption services would not be affected by the law. And the point of a civil union law was not to equate it with marriage.
People are “discriminated” against in adoption for many reasons. Often birth mothers get to choose adoptive parents. Some agencies have an age ceiling for domestic adoptions. There are financial requirements. And if single adults are allowed to adopt by some agencies, they must show some alternative custody if something happens to the adult.
My point is that adoption is not a right for all adults. But all children have a right to be raised with a father and mother. The children’s needs came dead last in this.
CC has been doing a service for the state. CC stepped in at a time when the state could not manage foster care itself. Other religious groups joined in too. (There was a history on a catholic news site.)
Comment by Southern Peggy Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 1:49 pm
Southern Peggy, I’d like to say a lot of things in response, but I think I’d be banned. But if you could maybe show me where in the constitution is says that children have the right to be raised with a mother and a father, and then give me your proposals for how to deal with children who have one deceased parent - forced remarria
Comment by lakeview Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 2:08 pm
I got cut off. Just as well. I’m having a lot of trouble thinking nice thoughts about a world where we force widows to remarry or else lose their children.
Comment by lakeview Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 2:11 pm
I just hope that they (Catholics) don’t start a Crusade, those don’t usually end very well.
Comment by Ahoy Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 2:30 pm
@TwoFeetThick — I knew the argument that nobody is forcing the Amish to get IDs was going to pop up. But the sole role of government is not place regulations in front of people and then say its up to you to figure out how to overcome those barriers. Government should always be willing to examine regulations and see which ones make sense and which ones can be reformed in one way or another. Maybe in the end, there is no good way to solve the Amish photo problem, but that doesn’t mean government can’t work to find a good solution.
Comment by Just Observing Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 2:32 pm
I saw Brown’s D.L. bill go through committee and was surprised it sailed through both chambers with so little opposition (just 13 nays in the House, none in the senate.)
I can see this vote being used in direct mail exactly the way Wumpus mentioned above (Muslim women wearing head scarfs.)
Madigan’s mail has been good at attacking Republicans from the right when given an opportunity…could see that next year with this vote.
Comment by Frank B. Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 3:04 pm
Amish need a photo ID to get on a plane. There were Amish on my flight in July and they had photo IDs at the entrance to the gates at the Sarasota Airport. Didn’t know what state they were from. There are some Amish groups that dress in the traditional garb but will take trains and airplanes when necessary.
Comment by Nearly Normal Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 3:15 pm
@Just Observing - I generally agree with your assessment of the role of government in trying to find a way. However, the issuance of a photo ID card is to allow for a quick, accurate way to identify the holder as being who they say they are. Taking the photo away removes the primary purpose of such a card - I think replacing the photo with something else may just not be compatible with the basic purpose of an ID card. I can look at someone’s face, compare it to the face on the card and quickly have a match, or not. I can’t look at a thumb print or something else and get the same effect.
The Amish like to keep to themselves and their ways and that’s fine. But, if they ride their buggy’s on a public road they have to follow the law, just like anyone else using the road. They are free to do things the way they want to do them within their communities. But, when are out in the wider society, then they have to abide by the wider society’s rules like everyone else, IMHO.
Comment by TwoFeetThick Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 3:16 pm
Interesting adoption of the current favorite role of “victim”, Bishop. Is this a version of Catholic Tea Partying? BTW, did you notice that certain “important elements” of Illinois political establishment like, oh, The Speaker, the Sen. Pres, and the Gov. are all Catholic?? Soooo…could it be you’re just way off the mark.
Comment by D.P. Gumby Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 3:20 pm
~But all children have a right to be raised with a father and mother. ~
Not really. It would be great if all children were raised in two PARENT households, but that’s probably not even the norm anymore.
Comment by Cheryl44 Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 4:28 pm
Why not just have a sketch artist do a drawing of the Amish? I mean that can’t cost very much, right?
Comment by Homer J. Simpson Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 4:29 pm
Regarding the Amish issue, a thumb print should work okay for state and federal and local law enforcement, though it may take longer to check the ID because not every cop has a fingerprint reader yet. A state ID with a thumb print would also give you an ID number, and you could easily attach a PIN number to that as well, which a shop keeper or cashier could run against a database, the same as any credit card. Again, a little more hassle than just looking at the photo, but certainly not insurmountable. I think if the Amish, or veiled Muslim women, seek that much accommodation for photo ID, the extra delay to process the ID number or thumbprint on a card without a picture seems an acceptable trade to me. Such cards being more work, they should probably cost applicants more to get. Just like vanity plates.
Comment by Techboy Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 8:25 pm
Homer, I like the sketch artist idea. (Why should only criminal suspects get their likenesses turned into art?) Though I’m not Amish, I think I would opt for that myself–as long as it wasn’t a sketch artist given to caricatures. I don’t need my double chin to look worse than it already does.
Comment by Steve Downstate Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 8:26 pm
Regarding the Bishop’s remarks, can someone clarify this for me: the new law doesn’t prevent Catholic Charities from handling adoptions and foster care their own way, if they are not taking government money, right? I mean, if they meet all the other health and safety standards and procedures, they could still be doing this, only just for people in agreement with their religious philosophy, correct? Or did I miss something? If I didn’t miss something, I would quote scripture to the Bishop: Matthew 22:21, to whit:
Jesus was asked about paying taxes to Caesar. He asked his questioners to show the coin that was used for paying the tax. He asked who’s image was on he coin. “Caesar’s face”, came the reply.
His answer:
“Then Render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar’s, and render unto God what belongs to God.”
Comment by Gregor Monday, Aug 22, 11 @ 8:34 pm