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* We got a lot of hostile comments yesterday about our poll asking readers to rate AFSCME’s legislative performance to date. Here’s just one…
You ought to be ashamed of yourself for posting such a ridiculous question. Blaming the employees of the state for something the legislature and Governor has done is irresponsible
* For whatever reason, many of you believed my question was somehow an attack on AFSCME. That’s just really stupid. It was a neutrally worded question, for crying out loud. We rate politicians all the time. AFSCME is a major Statehouse player, to say the least. They’re fair game. Plus, they’re big boys and girls. They can handle it. I received not one complaint from the union yesterday, off the record or on.
* Frankly, I was surprised at the poll’s results. Almost 39 percent of you gave AFSCME an “F.” I gave the union a “B.” How state workers would so completely turn on their own union which got them almost all the benefits they’re now whining about potentially losing is just beyond me. I’ve come to the conclusion that some of y’all are spoiled rotten brats.
* But I found the comment I posted above particularly interesting. It concludes…
Im sure your buddy Richey boy will ban me like the chicken thing he is
I will have to teach you about DOS attacks someday…somethung every big tough internet tough guy needs to know
A Denial of service attack, eh?
Bite me, moron. And learn how to spell while you’re at it.
Oh, and speaking of “chickens,” the idiot tried to mask his IP address. Real brave guy, that one.
I will track you down, dude. And when I do, I’ll unleash the hounds.
[I moved the We Are One ad to another post in order to keep the discussion on this post more focused.]
posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:18 am
Sorry, comments are closed at this time.
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Considering the technology the state uses and they way they use it the dude could have meant DOS the operating system
“Taking away the life savings” interesting line, not sure how it will play however..
Comment by OneMan Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:24 am
Is the union’s position that the state just needs to come up with more revenue? There is not much detail being released about what their position is on solving the pension problem except to oppose whatever anyone else is opposing.
Comment by Cassiopeia Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:26 am
I’ve met hundreds of AFSCME members over the years, and for the most part they are good, hard-working folks just trying to make a living for their families and themselves. I believe the vast majority of members understand the issues which confront us, and realize the union is working hard for them. Unfortunately, it seems the few dissenters scream the loudest and inevitably get the most attention. Any organization, especially one the size of AFSCME will have it’s share of bad apples. Don’t judge all of us based on comments from the few.
Comment by howie Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:29 am
I was a bit surprised at all the “bumper sticker” and “talking points” banted about. I shouldn’t be too suprised of all the negativity spewed about the “question”, however. The question has been asked numerous times about people, policy and politics. I can’t think of any other time the blowback was so angry, and angry about all the wrong things. I graded low because of these childish responses to the question, which led me to respond as I did.
“Blame anyone but me” and “How dare you (fill in the blank)…” look at the question far different. A poster yesterday made a good point that I could speak to as well. When some organization, be they a union, civic group, whatever, tries to be so obnoxious and borders on bullying while not addressing the issue(s) factually, I, too, would tune out. Whomever was taking it upon themself(ves) to just be plain beligerent, you ganered no sympathy and probably made some think twice, like me, as to the “job” that was done to be graded.
In the legislative arena, some days you win, some days you lose … and I guess some days you post on a blog “Talking Points” taking NO ownership on anythng. It was a simple, honest, straight-forward question … and others tried to hijack the question… to move an agenda, all the while alienating everyone else.
Nice job!
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:35 am
How big was the ad buy?
Comment by ad Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:47 am
How. That’s pretty pathetic on so many levels.
Comment by Chicago Cynic Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:48 am
I received a letter Monday from AFSCME that said this in bold print. “Dear SERS Retiree: Your retirement benefits are being threatened! In the last legislative session, afscme retiree chapter 31 was successful in beating back a legislative initiative that would have raised your health insurance cost by 500%. No such measure has yet emerged in this session, but Governor Quinn has called for increasing retirees share of health care cost. And some legislators have echoed that call. “. Doesn’t give me much faith in AFSCME.
Comment by Only in Illinois Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:50 am
Being a former AFSCME member I concur with you Rich that it is their work that got us many of our benefits. That said I remember when my son was little and he would be spill something. I could waste my time talking about what he should have done to prevent the spill, but the first focus was to clean up the mess. Once cleaned up I could then focus on ensuring it did not happen again. That is what AFSCME and all the unions need to do. I don’t care any more about who caused the mess, or who made it bigger. IT IS A MESS. So if there is to be a solution, get real and focus on cleaning the mess up. Then once straightened out we can talk about what can be done going forward. Just get moving, and I agree with Rich no more whining.
Comment by illilnifan Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:54 am
The ad is ok, I guess. I don’t see the point. Who is the ad really for? The public? the legislators? or their own rank and file?
Comment by Bill Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:58 am
Cool rockabilly band name: Richey Boy and Somethung.
Comment by Cheswick Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:58 am
= I will track you down, dude. =
This looks like a job for Keith!
Comment by Dirty Red Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:59 am
=== How state workers would so completely turn on their own union which got them almost all the benefits they’re now whining about potentially losing is just beyond me. ===
Rich -
As I’ve said, I’ve never understood the corporate and Republican attack on unionism. Collective bargaining and organized labor are probably the SINGLE BEST THING to ever happen “to” Corporate America. They couldn’t have devised a better system for defusing, deflecting and shifting blame if they had invented it themselves.
Organized labor creates a bargaining partner for employers that enables them to rein in what would otherwise be undefined, subjective anger toward management and shape it into a finite list of issues which can be negotiated and addressed. Individual employees are incapable for the most part of stepping back and seeing the long-term fiscal picture of their employer as part of their self-interest, but unions which plan to be around as long as the employer shift the focus to that viewpoint. And, when the end result is a compromise that involves less than 100 percent of what employees want — as it always does — union leadership gets as much or more of the blame than the employer.
Without unions, you have tens of thousands of disgruntled employees who are uniquely positioned to cripple the company, even without a work stoppage.
And, on the positive side, research overwhelmingly shows that just in our increasingly polarized democracy, workers are much more likely to accept a contract when they feel like they’ve had a meaningful voice in developing it, even when it wasn’t the outcome they hoped for.
This core democratic value explains, I believe, the overwhelming public support for the CTU in its current conflict with Mayor Emanuel, who they judge as being too heavy-handed and ignoring the legitimate concerns of teachers.
It should also serve as a warning to lawmakers as they attempt to craft pension legislation, apparently ignoring the input and concerns of unions. That is a perilous path. Lawmakers might be emboldened by polling showing public concern for the state’s fiscal condition, and maybe even public support for radical changes in the pension system. But history shows that modest support for any specific policy “solution” will be quickly undermined if that policy was developed and implemented outside of our core democratic and moral values.
Case in point: “Death Panels” were a great way to reduce the overall cost of our health care system. But restricting access to care for the dying, or even recommending it as a potential course of treatment, contradicted American’s core values regarding health care despite being an adopted strategy in nations around the world.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:59 am
Agree with howie. As an AFSCME member, I know how lucky I am to have a union that goes to bat for it’s members. From what I am hearing the current negotiations are a nightmare and everything is on the table. We will be lucky to get what we end up with after the negotiations due to the hard work of the negotiation team.
Comment by State Worker Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:00 am
Unfortunately it seems that every news or information outlet that allows public comments attracts the radical keyboard commandos. It used to bother me more but I Have come to believe that the radical types are a small but vocal minority. I hope I am not merely in denial!
Rich, I enjoy your site and do not envy your work to keep the dingbats from fouling it.
Comment by Freeze up Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:05 am
lets see, they basically stole the the money that was supposed to go into the pension system. I don’t care what they used it for. try telling that to a judge. Sorry judge, I stole the money because I had something else to use it for. See how that defense would hold up in court. The general assembly and governors caused the problem, so the solution is to take the pension money from their retirement system and roll all of it into the regular pension system and let them all start. from scratch. Boy I wonder how big of a dent that would make in the 85 billion so called pension deficit.
Comment by pension problem solved Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:11 am
I’ve worked non-union and union and there’s a world of difference in how individuals are treated with respect and dignity with union representation. Are all union leaders honest and upstanding..no more and no less than any other segment of our society. Some CEO’s and some Legislators work it to benefit themselves over the general public all the time. I do think it’s unfair to judge an entire group by the actions of some, not everyone who reads this board posts. When I called my reps office yesterday and mentioned Capitolfax they praised it highly, so you are providing a needed service to the public. I’m not excusing anyone going off the deep end and ranting, and I have been guilty of it myself because of the stress all the health care and pension changes has caused. State workers are scared, feeling betrayed, and with no sense of control over our benefits being changed. I’m not whining, I’ve accepted it, but just offering an explanation of how some are feeling.
Comment by Huggybunny Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:22 am
I can understand some peoples frustration with the unions,after all they are paying $800+ a year in dues and have not heard anything about contract or pension issues. Maybe some of these commentors are secret opperatives of the civic federation to paint a picture of state workers like rich has discribed in this thread. LOL
Comment by foster brooks Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:23 am
I think part of the problem is that as negotiators at the table, they can’t publicly talk about what their plan or goal is. That would completely destroy their negotiating ability. Negotiating 101 - keep your cards close to the vest. Sometimes that’s taken to mean that they don’t have a plan, but I don’t think that’s it at all.
Taking all of the money in the General Assembly plan (if that were even possible, which it’s not) would have the effect of increasing the funded ration of the other funds by less than 1/10th of 1% - and that’s being generous. It’s a tiny fund that doesn’t cover that many people and it’s the worst funded out of all of them anyway. Their pensions might be generous, but it’s not a big pool of money.
Comment by Katiedid Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:25 am
“Spoiled rotten brats”
Now there’s a ‘drive by’ comment.
‘…many of you believed my question was somehow an attack on AFSCME. That’s just really stupid.’ Thank you for assessing our thought processes.
I see about 150 comments on the post; of the few I read, some are reasonable. Between current State workers and retirees I think that number is around 100,000. Assuming 100 of the 150 comments are negative, that doesn’t result in a high percentage.
First of all, AFSCME doesn’t speak for all State workers nor retirees. And I don’t know how much opportunity AFSCME has had in the takeback process.
Second, there’s a lot of anger out there from State workers and retirees. Here’s a couple of thoughts why.
First, since about 2010, there’s been a campaign directed towards State worker pensions. From civic organizations. From big business. From legislators who, sorry, did fail in their jobs; became too easy to please their constituents by spending pension money.
All the media phrases such as ‘exorbitant’, ‘overly generous pensions’, ‘they’re now whining about’, ‘free’ health insurance, and on and on.
Many State workers received less in compensation than their counterparts in private industry. And the ‘benefits’ somewhat compensated for that.
While probably most retirees would agree that everybody need to share the pain, right now, it’s State workers and retirees that are getting the hit.
A letter is floating around (that may or may not be factual) that describes a point system for the % retirees will pay for health insurance. So, rather than a flat rate or other mechanism, someone with a lower pension and fewer years pays a higher % than someone with a higher retirement and greater longevity.
The legislature will decide what level of funding the State will provide towards health insurance. It could be 1/2 of the $800 million as one article stated; or it could be $1.00. CMS will be the ‘decider’ of how much the cost for insurance will be. CMS doesn’t always have a great track record. So folks are worried and angry.
Most State retirees are living on a fixed income and whenever the legislature and the governor impose takebacks, their lifestyle goes down. State workers and retirees don’t have a clue when more takebacks will be imposed, other than rumors. Many retirees don’t have large pensions to start with. And some are just getting by now.
So, yeah Rich, you might pose a question that doesn’t give you the responses, nor comments, you expected.
So, your comment that: “I’ve come to the conclusion that some of y’all are spoiled rotten brats.” seems over the top, but it is your blog. And ’some’ may be, but a lot of us aren’t.
And, my IP isn’t ever ‘masked’, so ban me if you feel the need.
Comment by sal-says Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:34 am
The threat reminds me of a joke i heard…
“How many union bosses does it take to screw in a light bulb?”
“Twenty. You got a problem with that?”
Comment by Assembly Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:36 am
“corporate and Republican attack on unionism”
A bumper sticker phrase if I ever heard one…
I agree that a great percentage of union activity is the right thing to balance the power of the purse against the legitimate needs of labor. However there is a long litany of excesses including the collapse of the auto companies and the ‘vandalism’ of facilities during the recent Verizon strike that turn the public against the persona of the union.
Here in Illinois we have the unholy alliance of the political machine (not choosing parties here, they are both guilty) and some of the most corrupt union leadership in the country. The sweetheart deals cut to provide publicly funded pensions to union officials and public officials using technicalities has been a disservice to the real workers of the state.
The cookie jar is empty, the taxpayer is tapped out and the cuts will be far more painful for the rank and file who receive more modest benefits. You can thank your political and union leadership for helping to drive the State finances off a cliff. The landing will be painful, but the guys in the tailored suits will be well cushioned for the crash.
Comment by Plutocrat03 Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:39 am
===Thank you for assessing our thought processes.===
There’s no other conclusion here. It was a basic poll question, asked in a neutral manner, and some folks exploded for no apparent reason. That would be stupid.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:40 am
===“corporate and Republican attack on unionism”
A bumper sticker phrase if I ever heard one…===
Are you saying those attacks don’t exist here? C’mon.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:43 am
“Are you saying those attacks don’t exist here”
Attacks come from many quarters. You can’t tell me that corporations run by Democrat leaning leadership all have clean hands with respect to their dealings with the unions.
It becomes a bumper sticker sticker phrase when it is a half truth.
Comment by Plutocrat03 Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:47 am
Rich,
I’m curious as to how you ID’d the “rotten brats” comments as coming from union members. Some self-identified or were logically inferred from the comments, but I didn’t see too many of those. (I didn’t interpret naked calls for decertification as dispositive of actual union membership.) Did you use ISP mojo, or did I just miss something?
– MrJM
Comment by MrJM Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:51 am
@Plutocrat03
===“corporate and Republican attack on unionism”
A bumper sticker phrase if I ever heard one…===
Wisconsin Scott Walker (R), “Divide and conquer the unions”
Indiana Mitch Daniels (R) Feb. 1st signs Right to Work bill
Ohio John Kasich, March 29th signs bill limiting collective bargaining.
Need more?
Comment by Ready To Get Out Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:51 am
Correction: Ohio John Kasich (R)
Comment by Ready To Get Out Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:52 am
This is getting (has got) out of hand …
It was a poll question.
Period.
End of Story.
Is the insurance bill a hot button right now, yes, along with all the benefits the retirees and current state workers, yes, that is all true.
But, it was a question about the Legislative aparatus of ASCFME. You had A-F. I can not believe this is still festering.
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:53 am
The question was fair, but the truth requires some persinal reflection that made people angry at themselves and looking for someone else to blame. The truth is, everyone in the union, member and leadership alike shares in the blame for the passage of SB1313. But now, union members and leaders gave a choice. I think working toward preserving pensions and benefits is a better use of our resources than fighting amongst ourselves.
Comment by AC Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:55 am
The Question…
===…made people angry at themselves and looking for someone else to blame.===
100% Agree.
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:57 am
We Are One ad is very misleading. 9 shots with 4 of police or firefighters. Didn’t know they were included in the pension reforms under consideration or that they were working on solutions.
Comment by Bluefish Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 10:59 am
–The ad is ok, I guess. I don’t see the point. Who is the ad really for? The public? the legislators? or their own rank and file?–
Bill, I think the ad is geared to generate empathy among the general public.
That’s very necessary, but it takes repetition over a long period of time to move the needle, particularly in today’s frenzied anti-union environment. And that takes a lot of money.
That’s why gaining free media, a la tactics that were used in Madison, is so important. The pro-union forces were THE story in the state for weeks, allowing them to get their message out, build support and step all over Walker’s narrative.
The spot itself is okay. I prefer real-people testimonials when you’re looking to generate empathy. To borrow a phrase, one person’s difficulty is a tragedy; thousands of people’s difficulties are statistics.
Testimonials allow viewers to connect with a person and put themselves in their shoes.
It could have used a stronger call to action, too. Call who in Springfield? Who’s the villain?
The competing Obama/Romney superpac videos regarding Bain Capital are both very good examples of real-people testimonials.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 11:00 am
“Need more?”
Illinois legislature stripping health insurance payments and threatening to limit the unions same way being done in WI an OH
They are Democrats in IL aren’t they?
The hits come from all sides
Comment by Plutocrat03 Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 11:04 am
–I’m curious as to how you ID’d the “rotten brats” comments as coming from union members. Some self-identified or were logically inferred from the comments, but I didn’t see too many of those. (I didn’t interpret naked calls for decertification as dispositive of actual union membership.) Did you use ISP mojo, or did I just miss something?–
Curious too. Trolls take many forms. As for being spoiled rotten brats, I think a broad brush ye paints with…
Does the same logic apply to all politicians ie Ryan, Blago, Smith, and the list goes on…?
Comment by Chalk dust torture Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 11:12 am
@Plutocrat3:
A corporation with “Democratic leaning leadership” is still a corporation. Not that there are too many of them, but go back and check the record and you’ll find plenty of criticism for Microsoft in its anti-trust activities. I think that most folks would agree that “Democratic leaning” or not, Apple has come under pretty stiff criticism for its ties to human rights violations.
At the same time, I’ve routinely applauded Caterpillar, whose Republican leanings are undeniable, for its commitment and success improving worker safety (without work comp reform), although I don’t think its because they have some moral compulsion about safety but have finally figured out that safety is good for their bottom line. Likewise, they have a strong corporate commitment to supporting human rights abroad in their business practices, which I would imagine is not because they are dues-paying members of Amnesty International but rather have realized that Amnesty International has made negative p.r. around human rights abuses bad for business. Just ask Nike.
Moreover, as you’ll see throughout, I’ve been roundly critical of Rahm Emanuel’s dealings with the Chicago Teacher’s Union in particular.
That said, I don’t think you’ll find to many examples of Democratic elected officials questioning the legitimacy of unions or the right of collective bargaining as a whole, whereas examples of both Republican elected officials and corporations and their associations attacking unionism, collective bargaining and blaming organized labor for all of America’s problems abound.
In the short-term, this creates a huge electoral advantage for Democrats. 1/3 of union members traditionally vote Republican, but they are leaving the GOP in droves. It also creates a little more leeway for Democrats temporarily, because unions truly have no place left to go, unlike the old days when public employee unions often supported moderate Republicans.
In the long-term, however, as the two parties become increasingly polarized and the public becomes increasingly annoyed at the lack of workable solutions, my bet is that it will lead to the emergence of a third party in Illinois.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 11:17 am
Hmm. I think I just may have figured out who made that DOS threat. Hounds to be released in five, four, three…
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 11:29 am
Ut Oh ….
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 11:51 am
Rich -
I recommend contacting the Illinois Attorney General’s High Tech Crimes Bureau. Hacking is a crime, and a threat to hack is a serious crime.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 12:03 pm
@Bluefish -
The Illinois Municipal League is pushing for cuts in police and firefighter benefits.
Also, the State Police are technically “police”. And unless I’ve misread reports, Quinn’s proposed keeping them patrolling until they are 67. Hope they start issuing NoDoz.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 12:32 pm
“find too many examples of Democratic elected officials questioning the legitimacy of unions”
Quinn, Emmanuel, heard of them?
The leading Democrats in Illinois are working to make the same changes the corporations and Republicans are doing in other states. Where is the outrage, where are the demonstrations?
In my opinion it is worse for the Democrats to upend the worker benefit packages because they have taken labor money for so many years. The rank and file are being taken all right. In the case of Illinois it by people who were supposed to be their friends.
All I have said is that the hits on labor are coming from all sides and that is disingenuous to make the claim that it is only corporations and Republicans.
Comment by Plutocrat03 Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 1:04 pm
Rich,
I gave the union’s legislative efforts an ‘F’. I can’t imagine giving them any other grade given that the legislation that’s being considered now makes the Cross/Civic Committee SB 512 bill look tame by comparison. If they’re as big of a player as you say, how is it that legislation like the bill breaking a longstanding promise to retirees and long term employees flew through the house on such a lopsided vote?
Comment by PublicServant Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 1:07 pm
Pluto, you must be aware that plenty of Republicans in Illinois have received support over the years from labor unions in both the public and private sectors.
As far as union “legitimacy,” I haven’t seen a prominent state figure propose the end of collective bargaining for public unions or flipping Illinois to a Right-to-Work state.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 1:09 pm
===Pluto, you must be aware that plenty of Republicans in Illinois have received support over the years from labor unions ===
Saviano, Durkin, McAuliffe to name 3 in the House that claimed Union support many times in their careers.
The Teamsters in IL have gone Repub in the past on some races, and even sent bodies in the precincts.
Labor Cash has made it into Repub hands often.
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 1:22 pm
“haven’t seen a prominent state figure propose the end of collective bargaining for public unions”
Much classier to hollow out the benefits quietly eh?
Comment by Plutocrat03 Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 1:27 pm
Pluto, I don’t think I’ve seen a proposal that “hollows out benefits,” but like I said earlier, I haven’t seen any to outlaw collective bargaining (as in Wisconsin) or make Illinois a Right to Work State (as in Indiana), either.
But your transformation from one who’s argued that Dems were captives of public employee unions to the Ghost of Joe Hill is remarkable.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 2:04 pm
@Pluto -
Willfully or not, you seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between “employee benefits” supported by unions and “union membership” as a fundamental right. On the first point, Executive branch elected officials will always have disagreements with unions, regardless of party, just as they will often agree, regardless of party. This is part of the reason its difficult for Big City mayors to run for higher office: they can almost always be portrayed as being “anti-union” or “in bed with unions” depending on what suits their opponent.
The closest your likely to come to the latter in Illinois was the move by Quinn to strip some state employees of their collective bargaining rights. Which was pretty narrow and I think still got nowhere. Even with the current strife over pensions, I think Democratic leaders have been careful not to attack the unions per se or blame them for the state’s current fiscal turmoil.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 2:28 pm
Sorry I was out of the office yesterday.
Miss a little, miss a lot.
Comment by Jake From Elwood Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 3:07 pm
“union membership” as a fundamental right.”
I fail to see how it is right to compel someone to join an organization which take a portion of my salary and give it to someone I may or may not agree with.
I have seen no one espouse the elimination of unions. At best the items that can be judged to be limited.
Despite your protestations the Dems are playing a major part in stripping benefits from retirees and current union members.
Comment by Plutocrat03 Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 6:08 pm
If you don’t understand the power of a single voice for the employees advocating higher salaries and bendfits offsetting the single voice of the employer advocating for lower salaries and benefits, you deserve to be compelled.
Comment by PublicServant Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 6:54 pm
“Bite me, moron. And learn how to spell while you’re at it.”
Hear, hear! How about a requirement for posting here that the poster know the difference between “there” and “their” and “to” and “too”.
Comment by wishbone Wednesday, May 16, 12 @ 9:50 pm