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* John Tillman, the CEO of the Illinois Policy Institute, has a new op-ed in the Tribune…
A specter is haunting Illinois — the specter of government unions.
State taxpayers bear the burden of more than $200 billion in unfunded government retirement costs. Yet unions resist any and all changes, and shouted down Gov. Pat Quinn at the Illinois State Fair for merely entertaining the thought of reform.
With whatever means they have at their disposal, government employee unions have become a reliable obstacle to positive, necessary and long overdue changes that will give taxpayers relief from the burden of unaffordable employee benefits, improve failing schools and make core government services more efficient.
It is high time the grip government union bosses have over taxpayers and union members be exposed publicly, starting with how Illinois labor law has allowed Karen Lewis of the Chicago Teachers Union and other government union officials leverage over taxpayers:
• Union bosses have exclusive representation over workers.
• Workers are forced into membership whether they want it or not.
• Union bosses automatically confiscate money from worker paychecks to spend as they see fit.
• Once organized, unions and worker membership are close to permanent.
All of this has allowed government unions to cause or aggravate most of the fiscal and economic problems that Illinois faces, hurting our children, the poor and taxpayers alike.
* The Question: In your opinion, have government employee unions caused or aggravated most of the fiscal and economic problems that Illinois faces? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please.
posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:32 am
Sorry, comments are closed at this time.
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Your question is kind of ambiguous. Caused? Clearly not. Aggravated - well they’ve added to the problem. They’re not responsible for most of it. Governors and legislators dating back to Big Jim are the ones who are responsible.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:39 am
The unions have contributed to some of the problems but there is plenty of blame to go around. The political class in Illinois has failed miserably.
Comment by Cassiopeia Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:42 am
The real threat to the fiscal health of Illinois is the CEOs, hedge fund managers, and the rest of our new Aristocracy of Wealth who believe they should be able to make money off the government through subsidies and privatization schemes but don’t think they should have to pay taxes. Teachers and other public servants are just fighting to stay in the middle class. The Illinois Policy Institute, which receives funding from the Koch brothers and like-minded souls, is part of the assault on the middle class.
Comment by Eugene Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:43 am
SNL: “Behind every ruthless dictator is an enabling superpower” Voted Yes, but they couldn’t do it alone.
Comment by Keep it Simple Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:44 am
–A specter is haunting Illinois — the specter of government unions.–
How subliminal. Yet somehow I get it. Public unions are commies (although the original author thought “specter” was a good thing).
For real? I’d hate to see the opening lines he rejected. Couldn’t work “four score and seven years ago” into the intro?
Next time, just start with “In the beginning…..” It’s a classic.
To the question, the answer is “no.”
Most of our problems were created by spiking Medicaid costs, big hits in revenues starting in 2008, adding spending to baselines in flush years, and robbing from reasonable, annual pension contributions to pay for bright shiny things (and now we have to catch up to those pension shorts, with big time interest payments).
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:45 am
They have definitelt aggravated the problem. The unions leaders stood by accepting raises in lieu of pension obligations from the legislature and now want to be held completely blameless. They certainly are not completely to blame but they along with the legislatures and Governors held their heads in the sand too long.
Comment by downstate hack Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:45 am
In the case of the state, the payroll is a small percentage of the overall budget.
The problem in Illinois is a structural budget deficit. The revenues coming in do not pay for the services which people want.
Just a year ago the state gave away hundreds of millions to corporations who didn’t need it.Our budget problems are going to be solved only if we do something about the revenue problem
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:51 am
Though I think they have somewhat contributed, the lack of sound fiscal decisions on the part of our legislators is the primary cause in my opinion.
I do not believe there is a place for unions in either education or government. But this financial disaster lies squarely with the legislators. They are a pitiful lot.
Comment by Sunshine Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:55 am
Let’s face facts, the public sector unions don’t build roads, fight fires, or teach our children. They make those vital government services more expensive. We need to strike a balance, and right now our policies aren’t helping families or businesses get by.
Comment by Allen Skillicorn Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:57 am
I voted no, because I read a study that was published here around two weeks ago that showed something like 44% of the pension was caused by politicians borrowing to fund the pensions. After this, there are other factors (including my salary and benefits) that “aggravate” the budget problem, such as a weak economy bringing in less tax revenue and a historically-low income tax rate.
Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:57 am
Of course not. The problem is that millionaires and billionaires like Tillman’s friend Bruce Rauner pay an effective state income tax rate of around 2% while the middle class pays more than twice that much, and two-thirds of Illinois corporations pay no corporate income tax at all.
Comment by Reality Check Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:59 am
IPI seems to be jumping the shark with this kind of shrill, over-the-top rhetoric.
But with regard to the question: state employees were promised good benefits and pensions in return for lower wages. It isn’t until recently that state jobs are considered good jobs — mostly because the private sector has completely screwed over its workers.
We all benefitted (in the form of lower taxes and/or higher services) by avoid funding our pension obligations. The biggest beneficiaries, though, are the many, many lawmakers and governors who claimed they “didn’t raise taxes” — and simply punted the problem by ignoring pension funding.
I hate the idea that the guys in charge get a pass on broken promises, but the frontline workers have to pay with pension cuts, etc.
Comment by the Other Anonymous Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 11:59 am
Given that Illinois has the lowest number of state workers per cap and their pensions are barely enough to get by on, I say no. Unions aren’t responsible for legislators granting themselves pension perks and the state not paying its share. Public sector Unions aren’t responsible for a culture of corruption and patronage at various state agencies. Most of the fiscal problems of the state have been created by the corporate elite not wanting to pay their fair share and the politicians who enable them.
Comment by sinclair's ghost Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:00 pm
No.
The two discrete actions that have caused most of the State’s financial distress were: (1) Thompson’s decision in the early 1980s to fund pensions at “60% of payout” rather than the historical 100%; and (2) the extreme ramp-up in Jim Edgar’s pension law.
People like Mr. Tillman think that people who negotiate with public employee unions are Ado Annie from the musical Oklahoma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Cain%27t_Say_No
Comment by Anyone Remember? Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:00 pm
“Most” - No.
“Some” - Certainly.
But there’s plenty of blame (with others taking a larger share of the blame) to go around. But the public sector unions were sure happy to take advantage of the ride as far as it went. As were a lot of others.
Comment by Judgment Day Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:00 pm
downstate hack is incorrect. Public sector unions have been trying to cast a light on the pension crisis for a decade or more, and seeking not only additional contributions, but a guarantee from the state that they would pay any of their contribution, instead of raiding the coffers or shorting the payments year in and year out.
This is one of the areas that the governor and the legislature still balk about. While public workers pay their fair share, without fail, elected officials want the ability to welsh on theirs. It isn’t right, it isn’t responsible, and it’s one of the main reasons we have the mess we do.
Comment by mother jones Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:02 pm
Actually it was the hedge fund hustlers, predatory lenders and associated allies, front groups and Super PACs who trashed Illinois long before the unions gained the little power they have.
Tillman who sponges off the hustlers and predators in the guise of reform is among the biggest slop merchants in the biz. What is especially disappointing is the Tribune uses his slop.
Tillman needs to spell out how his pals fought the efforts to stop the predators or the medical quacks who stuffed their pockets govt funds.
The union workers are way done the list.
Comment by CircularFiringSquad Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:03 pm
Unions are certainly not all the problem, but most certainly contribute to it. Political leaders have not done their job in operating within sound fiscal policy. That includes saying no on occasions to pay raises, increases to pensions and perks.
But it’s all of us together, union workers, legislators, administrators, taxpayers and voters that have contributed this crisis. Everyone needs to take responsibility and do what it takes to work this out.
Maybe its less pay, or less in benefits for some, maybe it higher taxes for all, maybe retirees need to contribute by paying Illinois income tax. Maybe our politicians need to be removed from the pension system. A lot of maybees here, but everyone needs to have a hand in the solution.
This will mean that everyone will have to give something and maybe a lot of somethings to make things sound fiscally.
Comment by DOWNSTATE DEM Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:10 pm
Yeah, the unions are not assisting in the fix. The unions need to consider ways to contribute. Yes wages are high, but that is not by itself a problem. These are the jobs America needs now. The work rules are the bottom line, and they could contribute without losing a nickel. The way to bring the bargaining units to the table is through contracting services after the contract ends and the strike ensues.
Comment by Madison Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:12 pm
Unions haven’t caused the problems. In some cases the union shave aggravated things but even there the unions aren’t the major cause of any problems.
Comment by RNUG Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:12 pm
It was very surprising to me that Tillman was the only right of center voice we saw in Illinois throughout the chicago teachers strike. There were no congressional candidates or members of congress or other folks aside from this Rauner character after the fact weighing in.
Comment by Shore Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:13 pm
The Chicago teachers strike provides a good lesson. Rahm caved and gave the teachers a contract the City cannot afford. Did the union cause the increased deficit or Rahm? Rahm did. Why? Lost PR battle. Can’t blame unions. Same with State. It approved contracts with unions. They lived up to their bargain. The unions did not cause anything.
Comment by RSW Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:15 pm
No, more mindless jabbering from the big brains at the IPI.
As frustrated as I am with AFSCME these days, they are absolutely not the cause of most of the fiscal and economic problems we face.
Comment by Small Town Liberal Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:16 pm
Gutless pols are the main problem, too afraid of losing their jobs, to actually DO their jobs and make the hard calls like raising revenues or cutting services. Look at how the pension issue has to wait for a lame duck session before these fraidy-cats even *begin* to do anything about it.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:16 pm
I’m no lover of unions but you can’t blame unions for other party not living up to its part of the deal.
Comment by RSW Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:19 pm
Can’t blame the entire mess on unions. However, AFSCME should answer for their opposition to anything the Gov has proposed to address the mess. Whether pension reform or closures of facilities, AFSCME is front and center blocking the way. Sooner or later, AFSCME and some lawmakers may understand that the Gov, has the right to run government.
Comment by Give Me A Break Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:29 pm
IL Policy Institute: shilling for corporate moguls. Last time I checked the unions are not members of the Legislature or Executive branches of government who are ultimately responsible for final decisions. Has the Institute calculated tax benefits that have also been a major contributing factor?
Comment by ANALYST Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:30 pm
No!
• Union bosses have exclusive representation over workers.
:::Workers VOTE for union representation for union employees. Union reps also represent “fair share” employees since they pay dues equivalents.:::
• Workers are forced into membership whether they want it or not.
:::employees can either join or not join an existing union or vote to form a new local.:::
• Union bosses automatically confiscate money from worker paychecks to spend as they see fit.
:::Union members vote to pay dues which is deducted from their paychecks.:::
• Once organized, unions and worker membership are close to permanent.
:::Union members can vote and de-certify their locals:::
This right wing anti union group sure has a problem stating the truth.
Comment by Mouthy Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:31 pm
No one ever seems to mention the elephant in the room - all the friends and family who get hired at obscenely inflated salaries because of their political connections and the impact on the budget and pensions that has. Or the contracts that go to politically connected groups. No, it’s much easier to blame the unions. (And no, I am not a member.)
Comment by cynically anonymous Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:39 pm
While unions are not to blame for fiscal crisis - they are to blame for the state inability to make changes to the workforce and state programs
Comment by Fred Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:40 pm
No. The legislators have caused the problem by not funding the pensions for years. The pensions were earned and paid for by union employees. The Governor is trying to break promises and agreements that were included in employee contracts.
Comment by S. Illinois Republican Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:42 pm
The employees did not cause this problem. The union contracts were submitted and accepted by the legislators. They are the ones that have not kept their obligations to the retirement systems. The State of Illinois employees are the ones that have attempted to get along with Quinn regarding their raises and said they would defer them, only to have the governor tell us then that we were not getting them at all. Oh, my gosh……but they all received their raises. Give me a break!! There are positions that need to be reviewed that have went into the bargaining unit that I feel are administrative ones that should not have went into the union. Now there are hardly any management positions and practically all union positions. As I said, those positions need to be looked at again and removed from the union. The amount of money they make for what they do is not comparable. They make too much. I know, because of the former position I had when I worked.
Don’t blame us……blame the politicans!!!
Comment by Retiree Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:45 pm
I voted no. I won’t explain why because others, like Wordslinger have made my point.
I will, however, comment on those who have claimed that the Unions try to block “reform.” That might not happen if the unions were invited to the table to take part in meaningful discussions–something that hasn’t happened yet.
Comment by G'Kar Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:46 pm
Retiree: Rich or others will correct me if I’m wrong, but union contracts are not submitted to the GA for review and approval. I believe the Speaker has proposed this though.
Comment by Give Me A Break Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:52 pm
Had the Governor’s paid there part of the pensions and not have skipped payments. The state would not be in this mess. State employees pay there money every pay period.
Comment by Walk in my shoes Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:58 pm
No, the unions did not cause the problem. They are far from perfect, but I must agree with others that the failure of the state to pay its obligations, along with the excess costs of appointed positions that are not needed and only exist to reward party loyalty.
Comment by stateandlake Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 12:59 pm
Boy what a tirade you would think that somehow the Unions forced the general assembly to underfund the pensions over the last 50 years. Which has created what I thought was the $83 billion dollar under funding. The General Assembly thought it was more important to get elected and spend state revenue that should have went to pensions and benefits which employees has already worked for and now should be paid for.
Oh yeah if Quinn would quit running and sit down with the Unions they might work out a solution.
Comment by Anon Unioin boss Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 1:03 pm
I sat in on the negotiation of one union contract on management’s side during the Blago years. Not AFSCME, a small bargaining unit. We negotiated back and forth over work place issues but any time we came to a point of contention the CMS representative would call someone in the Gov’s office and lo and behold the union position was accepted.
During one session the CMS rep announced that the financial package would be delivered later that day. Soon enough here comes a woman into the meeting room with a document that outlined raises/new pay scale, etc. The union people literally giggled as they signed it - like kids on Christmas morning.
Incompetent/corrupt executive branch leadership paired with a bad economy caused the mess we are in.
Comment by Leave a Light on George Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 1:18 pm
Public unions have drafted an awful lot of the legislation that has gotten us where we are. To act like that’s not there fault is ridiculous. No rank and file person may be directly responsible, but the power at the top of many labor groups are without a doubt costing all of us with no regard for how to pay for it.
Comment by Shemp Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 1:19 pm
Skillicorn: Excuse me? Union members most certainly build roads, fight fires, run folks to the ER, teach our kids, administrate government programs, fix your heating,electrical, and plumbing systems, build buildings, perform medial research, nurse the sick, mine minerals, etc. It’s how the middle class became the middle class. Let’s remember that folks routinely used to be injured/die on the job before unions gave them protection against abuse by management. I am not against labor reform, but let’s have management negotiate in good faith and not attempt to destroy unions.
Comment by Loop Lady Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 1:20 pm
Are wages and pensions too high? Maybe.
But I don’t blame labor for the fact that management signs contracts to pay too much.
The workers are doing their jobs. It was management’s obligation to say no.
Comment by Skeeter Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 1:22 pm
I voted no, but I would agree that unions are part of the multiple responsible parties involved. They aren’t the sole cause.
As for the remarks, “any and all” changes have not been rejected. That’s a complete falsehood. What has been rejected is the kind of “reform” the IPI has pushed, which is cutting benefits and pushing the entire economic burden of the problem to the employees.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 1:24 pm
@Shemp:
NONE of those individuals that you blame for “drafting” the legislation get to vote in the General Assembly or get to sign the bill as Governor. Your argument is disingenuous.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 1:25 pm
Not sure what world you’re in Skeeter, but saying no usually gets you in front of the ILRB and that gives management about a 10% chance of having their “no” upheld. Acting as though public management has control of much of anything in Illinois is half the problem. Politicians and their labor backers have pretty well ensured that.
Comment by Shemp Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 1:39 pm
SERS has a total of $4.3 billion in salaries (per COGFA). The State budget is $37 billion. So a little more than 10% of the budget. Per COGFA, increases in pension benefits over the last 16 years has increased the unfunded liability by $5.8 billion (of that total $83 billion) - which would cost $500 million a year (over 30 years) to pay off.
So no - the mess isn’t due to the cost of employees.
Unions have their fingers in the pie (what organization in Illinois doesn’t?) - but the responsibilty to make it all work together rests with the GA and the Gov.
Comment by archimedes Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 2:05 pm
Not at all responsible. However they are a bit tone-deaf and seem to not care about letting the public know these innane claims by IPU and like-minded groups are a load of crapola. Public employees didn’t cause the problem and firing everyone wouldn’t make a dent in fixing the problem but IPI never mentions that. It’s time to adjust the pension payment ramp to something sustainable while passing no new initiative budgets until the backlog of bills is gone and the pensions are covered.
Comment by Hawkeye Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 2:06 pm
After the CTU strike, this type of editorial was due to follow. It’s the same old right-wing stuff, heavy with right-to-work and using the cliche “union bosses,” because it triggers feelings of contempt in certain readers.
The IPI makes union leaders out to be these lawless dictators, but did they didn’t mention that a vast majority of CTU members supported Karen Lewis and CTU leadership?
The opinion of the IPI and Chicago Tribune is diminished by the fact that it’s promoted by very rich people who don’t exactly feel altruistic themselves and willing to pay more in taxes to help out.
Since the editorial has a cliche, I will also return a cliche: “Union-busting is disgusting.”
Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 2:08 pm
No. The contracts, including salaries, are negotiated. AFSCME sits across the table from representatives of the administration and together they agree on the contract.
Retiree brings up a very good point however about union inroads into what were formerly management positions. There are very few Merit Compensation (non-union) positions left at many agencies. Few in the union wish to jump to an MC position because of increased responsibilities, difficult personnel issues, in a position that has no protection, has little prospect for annual raises and is likely at a lower salary than their staff.
This is a result of poor treatment of the MC staff by both this administration and the previous one. Folks gladly joined AFSCME for raises and protection from these less that supportive (and under Blago scary) administrations. It bodes poorly for the state as current supervisors retire.
Comment by Calhoun Native Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 2:10 pm
No.
It takes two to make a contract.
It takes at least thirty key players over decades to cause this pension and fiscal debacle.
“A specter is haunting Illinois” — is he nuts?
Comment by walkinfool Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 2:24 pm
I’m a fan of merit pay and defined contribution retirements. I’m also don’t think we can afford cost of living increases for preforming the same job anymore. There’s no such thing in the private sector.
I also think IL was foolish to put off the pension contributions. Pre-funding costs more in the short term, but much less in the wrong run. Politicials are very short sighted on these issues.
Comment by Allen Skillicorn Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 2:26 pm
Anyone who pays bills knows that when you cut your revenue it becomes more difficult to meet your obligations. The only trickle down that has happened in this country in the last 30 years is the trickle down of lost revenues from tax cuts and loop holes.
CUSTOMERS NOT CUTS!
Cutting jobs kills customers!
If Fred Flintstone does not want his car to flip over he needs to stop ordering the brontosaurus ribs! The Bush tax cuts and corporate loopholes are destroying us!
Comment by Bulldog Bones Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 2:34 pm
Absolutely not. Look straight to the legislature and govenors for the last 20+ years. AFSCME is fighting the Governor so hard right now because he is no longer negotiating on the current contract. State workers take a 16% cut in pay and benefits - take it or leave it. Mediator was cancelled and it’s all at a standstill. The union’s fault? I think not. The union offered to give up ALL raises for the term of the contract and pay more for insurance & pension. Turned down flat. Yet another strike?
Comment by Former Merit Comp Slave Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 2:47 pm
The unions as the cause is the easy shot. As others have said the unions are part of the issue, but contract/agreements for spending have multiple parties. A much larger part is the GA simply, repeatedly, not following through on the pension funding agreements. It is really easy for the current GA members to say ‘I did not do this’ because the many of the past Reps and Senators who agreed to past the pensions vacations that grew into the current huge numbers are/have been gone for awhile. So the ‘I am fixing someone else’s problem’ maintains its strength while the current GA members have limited personal skin in the game.
Comment by zatoichi Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 2:49 pm
Not cuased contributed too. They sat buy and looked the other way on pension holidays and early buyouts the state could ill afford for wages, contracts and other incentives.
they didn’t cause it, but the leadership was criminal co-conspirators in the enviroment that has led up to today.
Comment by Todd Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:02 pm
Skillicorn: I am tired of the comparison of government to the private sector. They are inherently different, and you know it.
Comment by Loop Lady Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:03 pm
==…don’t think we can afford cost of living increases for preforming the same job anymore. There’s no such thing in the private sector.==
I don’t know who you refer to in the private sector, but this argument that people make is completely false. ALL of my private sector friends have been receiving raises or bonuses during the past several years.
I haven’t had a raise in years because I’m not in the union. My private sector friends and counterparts have. You’ve got it all backwards my friend.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:19 pm
Stubborn Fact: As of 1999, Illinois’ pension funds were 89 percent fully-funded. Then the tech bubble collapsed and we had eight years of George Bush: two recessions, tax cuts for the Rich that weakened Illinois budget even further, and the nation lost 1 million jobs.
Stubborn Fact: Illinois government has the fewest public employees per capita of any state in the nation, thanks to cutbacks led by Democrats.
Stubborn Fact: Chicago teachers enjoyed the overwhelming support of Chicago voters, the vast majority of whom are neither public union members or even union members.
Oh yeah, and Tillman makes three times what the average school teacher makes.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:32 pm
===tax cuts for the Rich ===
I don’t think you meant to capitalize that “r.” Just sayin…
Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:33 pm
I take issue with the “permanence” comment. I suppose he’ll issue a retraction when my boss gets booted from the union based on the agreement on the definition of a working manager.
Comment by Jimbo Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:34 pm
Another example of six blind men examining an elephant. It different depending on where you sit. Everyone is the system bears some blame.
All the players have some sort of responsibility. This year our community was talking about the austerity agreement made with the public safety union. A victory for the taxpayer? Not so much. While the annual raises were in the 2 percent range, there was an annual 3 percent cola AND step raises, this results in annual increase in the 7 percent range . Outrageous.
One problem with negotiating with the pols is that it is not their money , the well for more money is infinate and if they screw up, they and their political entity never go out of business.
Comment by Plutocrat03 Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:36 pm
“I am tired of the comparison of government to the private sector. They are inherently different, and you know it.”
They are but the employees of any poorly managed organization pay the price when the money runs out, whether they work for General Motors, American Airlines or the State of Illinois.
Comment by capncrunch Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:37 pm
LL - if the public sector doesn’t start learning a thing or two from the private sector, the public sector will be extinct like the dinosaur. Adapt or be obsolete.
Do you really think tax payers will accept ever increasing income taxes, property taxes, and fees?
Comment by Allen Skillicorn Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:39 pm
Demoralized - I do not know your friends, but according to the BLS the average income has declined almost 10% since 2008.
Personally, I have not received a raise in 20 months and my responsibilities grew enormously at that time. I can say the same for the employees I manage. Maybe I’m too content, but we know we are lucky to have a job in this market.
Comment by Allen Skillicorn Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 3:50 pm
I started going to lobby the General Assembly in regards to TRS pensions in 1978. Both Dems and Repubs patted us on the head and told us not to worry, the money would be there. Time and time again they were told that they needed to put in the required payments toward public pensions.
Well, here we are now that I am retired and is the money there? Nope.
Comment by Nearly Normal Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 4:20 pm
Grandson Of Man @11:57 - I read reports of that study here as well, but I could never find it anywhere. Did you happen to find the study itself?
Comment by Name Withheld Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 4:22 pm
Loop Lady, don’t waste your time. There is no educating someone who thinks the “public sector will be extinct like the dinosaur.”
I voted no. I’ve had my complaints about AFSCME, but they were not the cause of “most” of the problems we face today.
Comment by Norseman Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 4:32 pm
Check the non union management, deputy directors, etc., jobs being created as we speak paying several times what a front line worker makes…why does no one call them out? They are told to cut the management so they add to them and lay off the front line…who exactly are they directing with little staff? Send every one of them home today and they will not be missed tomorrow. This needs to stop. Where is Erin Brockovich when you need her.
Comment by noname Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 4:59 pm
I don’t think they’ve caused it, but the question included aggravated, so I voted yes. The ultimate responsibility lies at the feet of the politicians who vote on and approve budgets. But, they unions have been strong advocates for unsustainable pension and pay increases and they back candidates who are going to help their paychecks. I think it goes back to lobbyist and advocates responsibility. While the ultimate responsibility lies with the politicians, if you lobby and advocate for legislation that turns bad or is unsustainable, you’re partly to blame.
That being said, I don’t like Tillman or the IPI.
Comment by Ahoy! Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 5:08 pm
Nearly Normal, has your TRS pension check bounced? Reduced? Delayed? None of the above? Right.
Don’t whine about things that aren’t happening, K?
To the question, I voted no. Unions don’t propose or vote on the state budget.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 5:19 pm
My answer is absolutely NOT. Personally I’m sick of hearing that the Unions caused the problem. The majority of State workers do not make the elaborate pension amounts that the GA & Governor would like people to believe. State workers have to work 44 years before they max out on retirement & then would receive 75% of their income. So if anyone thinks that’s elaborate, they need to have their heads examined.
Comment by FedUp Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 5:38 pm
Heck, no, the unions are not at fault. What the public employee unions negotiated for Illinois state employees was modest in comparison to the contracts being negotiated in the private sector, and as far as I can tell, the public employee unions always lived up to their end of the bargain. The problem in Illinois has always been a hopelessly corrupt and cynical legislature and series of equally irresponsible governors in Illinois who ever have evaded their responsibilities in exchange for short-term political advantage. Those are the people who created this fiscal mess, not the unions. And for the record, I have never in my life belonged to any union. But I admire what the labor movement did for this country. The unions, not the government, created the middle class in the United States, and the destruction of the unions, including the public employee unions, will ultimately destroy the middle class.
Comment by Skirmisher Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 5:46 pm
Labor unions did NOT cause the state’s financial mess… they bargained with the representatives of the legislature who agreed to contract terms. If they had NOT agreed to the terms, the terms simply would not have existed. The legislature then failed to back up the agreed to terms year after year while the employees continued to keep their end of the bargain and paid their share of the agreed to costs. So who caused the problem… out state legislature did! Any questions?
Comment by Boozebuster Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 5:47 pm
I’m with RSW on the topic. They haven’t helped but the real issue is the politicians who were not paying toward the pensions, the politicians who overturned Glass-Steagall (sorry Clinton but you’re guilty) and disgusting companies like WalMart and the consumers who think they’re getting a good deal there. There are a few other guilty parties like the boards who grossly over-pay the CEO’s so that they cannot hire regular staff.
Comment by Belle Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 5:48 pm
I can’t imagine trying to run a school without the ability to hire and fire the staff. Performance in a profession like teaching has a large subjective component. It still needs to be evaluated, and administrators need to be accountable for the performance of their organizations. I don’t know how you hold a principal accountable, if they don’t have the ability to hire and fire. Seems like management 101 to me. It will be unfair to some teachers at times. Much more important is that the schools reason for existence is to teach kids.
Pay isn’t too high, performance is too low.
Comment by Small company cfo Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 5:57 pm
Name Withheld,
I was just looking for that study, and I’m sorry that I couldn’t find it. I recall that the study said that 44% of the pension debt problem was caused by politicians borrowing to pay the pension, and that is the biggest cause of the problem. If I find it sometime in the future, I may link it in a topic that’s relevant.
Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 6:18 pm
The pensions have been “borrowed” from so much that they are now a problem. The problem lies in the same people who voted to “keep” their own pensions on August 17.
Comment by Richard Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 7:37 pm
Illinois’ relatively low taxes (a fact denied by Tillman’s IPI) are due to the borrowing of pension funds by our legislators and governors–to run state government. The unions have been complaining about this raid on our pensions, pension holidays, and borrowing against pensions–for years. I personally was chided by Emil Jones for the constant calls he got from our members–years ago. And our pensions are average or below average nationally.
John Tillman needs to join a union to learn the truth about how they work. Workers elect their leaders–democratically. He knows that. It is something his kind is trying to eliminate. Workers join a union for their own benefit–they are not forced. Some who choose not to join in education locals may have to pay their fair share of the costs of the union protecting their rights–that’s by law. Workers ask that their dues be deducted from their paycheck–something the union busting corporate types want to stop. Unions often have to hold recertification elections, or employees can ask for one, where employees decide whether or not to continue union representation. Unions are required by law to represent their members and the employees (fair share or not) in disputes with their employer.
The demise of private sector unions has led to the demise of the middle class, the growing gap between the rich few and the millions of workers in the U.S. Now Tillman and his secret billionaire benefactors want to destroy public service too.
And Tillman continues to hide his sources of money trying to take away what few rights the workers of Illinois still hold.
Tillman and his kind better be very careful about crushing working people, they will eventually wake up to these robber barons attacks.
Comment by Midwest Instructor Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 8:19 pm
Dear John:
Union bosses have exclusive representation over workers? Last time I checked, Management has exclusive power over workers. Even a union can’t always stop management forcing employees out of work if management is hell bent on doing so. You should study up on the management rights clause of most management-union contracts, as well as labor relations board decisions, and civil service commission decisions in this regard.
Union bosses confiscate money from worker paychecks to use as they see fit? Really? This coming from someone who believes union members are overpaid? So apparently union workers are getting a good return on their investment. Also, what do you call it when managers confiscate money from workers in the form of pay cuts and layoffs? I know - they don’t want to “overpay” workers and at the same time they don’t ponder at what point a profitability turn becomes “overtaking.”
Once organized, unions and worker membership are close to permanent? So you’re saying workers having a voice and having a greater degree of stability and confidence in their long term employment opportunities are a bad thing? You do know that they better workers do the more they have to spend on whatever it is you’re selling, right? Pun intended.
Comment by sparky Thursday, Sep 20, 12 @ 8:49 pm
No
1) Legislators treated pension funds as their own “rainy day” fund.
2) Leg. never paid back what they stole, I mean borrowed, or fund all their on going pension obligations.
3) Tax breaks for most big business (Corporate Welfare)causes reduced revenues.
4) Bad economy in the last 10 years.
5) Making public sector employee’s pay for the Leg. bad decisions is wrong.
6) Go back and figure out how to raise revenues, not cut people’s retirement.
Comment by barbara Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:15 am
Unions are not to blame. We DO NOT make laws. We DO NOT have control over where Illinois spends it’s money. Everyone in Illinois wants teachers to be ACCOUNTABLE. Last time I checked, we ELECT people to be legislators. Where is their ACCOUNTABILITY.
GET REAL !!!
Comment by Proud UNION worker Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 6:33 am
You know, I am just your average middle class American trying to make an honest living. I consider myself neither Democrat or Republican. I can agree with many points in both parties.
Why is it that this attack on Public employees is never ending. Public Employees and their unions have made every payment to their pensions that has ever been asked of them. They proudly are willing to pay more if needed BUT…the legislators have to be doing the same. Keeping their promise to fund the pensions.
The problem is not the unions. It is the big money people who have the influence over these greedy politicians. Big money Big business. What this means for the middle class is the erosion and subsequent failure of the middle class. This reminds me a lot of the 1800s when slavery was big.
I work hard for my family and am proud to be a public employee in a union. DO NOT think for one second that big business is going to make me a slave in my own country. The land of the free.
We need to get back to helping ALL Americans. Not just the ones who can afford it.
Comment by Proud UNION worker Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 7:10 am
OMG Why are you mad at me? I didn’t make the rules. I have made my payments. I think the Gov. should start making their payments. I started teaching in 1992 at $19,900 a year. WOW, I am really breaking the bank. I think maybe you should look into the judges and politicians payroll. What does a US Senator get? It is well over $100,000. Do judges and lawmakers get free healthcare? I pay close to $1,000 every month for it. Ask them. Bottom line is this, you think that just because you went to school that that makes you an expert on education. You do not have a clue about education. What really fires educators up is not the money. We did not become teachers for the pay! Our unions protect us from rash decisions, like yours, that want to throw everybody under the bus. Oh yeah, one last thing, did you know that teachers can be fired? All the administrators have to do is document. You act like it is impossible. No it is not.
Comment by Mark Monday, Sep 24, 12 @ 1:33 pm
No! The politicians have miss used the fund and not paid into the fund for many years thus it has caught up to them. On top of chasing businesses out of Illinois with the high tax rates for some and too many tax breaks for others. So reform needs to come from them reducing their pay checks and benefits not the citizen state worker.
Comment by kaw101mp Monday, Sep 24, 12 @ 5:29 pm
The unions, in and of themselves, have not created the financial problems the State of Illinois is experiencing. The financial problems are the result of too many years of the State Congress serving special interest groups. When we have a governor that carried only 3 out of 102 counties in the election, doesn’t that indicate that the opinions and votes of people outside of a couple of areas doesn’t matter. As Chicago goes, so goes the rest of the state.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Sep 24, 12 @ 11:18 pm
I guess it depends on who you are including in the term government employee. If you consider the congressmen in that group (House, Senate, and GOV), who voted to have COLA switched from simple to compounding interest, or who voted to get 85% of their salary after 20 years of service as a pension and are now making more than double the retirement pension that they were getting while they were working, or those who voted to not fund the Teacher Retirement pension fully for the last 20+ years as laid out in the Constitution of the state of Illinois, then I answer YES. If you are speaking about the teachers as government employees, I say NO. We have a pension that has NOT been funded as it was supposed to be for 20+ years. NOW, teachers are the bad guys because they want to retire and get their pension, which by the way maxes out at 75% after I believe 35 years of service AND teachers in this great state do not get the luxury of collecting social security along with their pensions like most folks. Now TEACHERS are burdening the taxpayers…RUBBISH! The legislators did not do their jobs for the last 2 decades, they retired and are taking huge pensions, and placing the blame on the teachers. I have paid my share…it’s time the state woke up and paid theirs.
Comment by Downstate Teacher Tuesday, Sep 25, 12 @ 10:36 am
The question you should have asked is “Who is primarily responsible for the fiscal and economic problems of the state?” I think an overwhelming number would choose the Legislature from any list of options.
Comment by Bobbysox Tuesday, Sep 25, 12 @ 11:53 am
No, the unions are not at fault. I was/am a union president, for the huge sum of $250 per year! Like anything else, don’t form your opinions based on the “bad apples” that make the headlines. A union is simply democracy in the workplace. (Our country spends billions in other countries to help them create democratic governments.) During my 30+ years as a support staff in a higher education setting, I made each of my pension payments on time. I collect $30,000 per year in pension and do not get social security (even though I have paid in!). Again, don’t judge all pension receivers by the extreme examples in the headlines.
Comment by Yearning for Honesty Tuesday, Sep 25, 12 @ 12:26 pm
No
If the State skipped paying into Social Security instead of a pension fund people would be going to jail. The State gives tax breaks to Big Business, Chicago Civic league for example. The Corporations want to get rid of Unions and pensions so they can keep the profits, Caterpillar for example.
Comment by Mo Tuesday, Sep 25, 12 @ 1:18 pm
As a retired public school teacher, I can attest to the fact that roughly 10% of every paycheck I ever received had my pension contribution taken out. I never missed a pension payment. My school district never missed a pension payment. Too bad the state can’t say the same, since they haven’t made a full pension payment since 1970. I never borrowed from my pension contributions. My school district never borrowed from their pension contributions. Too bad the state can’t say the same. They deferred payments, and borrowed from the pension systems and never payed back what they “borrowed”. (Some would call that practice “stealing”.) And people wonder why the state has such a large pension debt? By the way . . . nice slant on the attending article, here (insert sarcastic tone).
Comment by polomom Tuesday, Sep 25, 12 @ 1:32 pm
Absolutely Not! The legislators caused the problem. Every time they voted on pension increases it was unanimous. The upcoming amendment requires a 2/3 majority to pass pension increases….it will do nothing since they always vote unanimously! The legislature failed to pay their obligated amount for many many years resulting in the current deficit. Taxpayers have enjoyed roads/bridges and God knows what else on the money that was supposed to go to pensions. Employees paid their share from each paycheck. If employees weren’t required to participate in the pensions instead of Social Security, the Legislators could not have declared pension holidays, they would have been required to pay the Federal Govt.
Comment by Mary Jo Tuesday, Sep 25, 12 @ 4:05 pm
Unions helped build this country. They teach our children, build our roads, ensure our food is safe…the list goes on and on. They are not the problem.
Comment by democrat Grrrl Tuesday, Sep 25, 12 @ 4:06 pm
They have “caused” it to the degree that the greatest cause of death is life. The idea that individuals join together to stand up for their rights and negotiate for wages, terms and conditions certainly creates expectations that the other side is going to fulfill their part of the bargain. It reminds me of the saying among teachers that school would be a great place to work if it wasn’t for the kids.
Comment by someonehastosayit Tuesday, Sep 25, 12 @ 4:32 pm
How could unions have caused the financial issues when it is our tax dollars they take from our paycheck? They then decide how to spend those tax dollars. Illinois has too few working people paying taxes, like union members do, and an ever increasing percentage of our population that pays no taxes. We can not continue to look to increased taxes or reducing/impairing the retirement benefits of those who have worked and paid taxes to support that increasing percentage of our population. The lack of the govt making its constitutional contributions to the pension systems, AND using those monies for their own political interests, are what has created much of the financial stress, especially related to the pensions.
Comment by Rabbit Tuesday, Sep 25, 12 @ 6:59 pm
The Unions have absolutely nothing to do with the current mess. The fact that the retirement funds were not correctly funded to begin with is part of the problem , but a bigger part is the fact that the State has not contributed a dime to the fund since 1995. Add to that the fact that the state has “borrowed” , without asking of course, over 26 billion from the retirement account without repaying a penny ,also fuels the problem. All the other contributing factors (terrible government spending , poor money management and political pork spending)are icing on the sh*t cake. And to address a previous comment , the governor does not have the right to “run the state”. He is an employee of ours , not the other way around. He has no rights that we don’t give him.
Comment by tn8r Wednesday, Sep 26, 12 @ 10:43 am