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* From the AP…
Lawyers argued before the Illinois Supreme Court for more than an hour Thursday over an abortion notification law that’s nearly two decades old but has never taken effect. The court’s job is merely to determine whether the legal battle will continue.
The law, adopted in 1995, requires doctors of girls 17 and younger to notify a parent 48 hours before an abortion. A girl may bypass her parents by going to a judge.
Opponents of the dormant decree want permission to duke it out in a trial, which an appellate court agreed to last year. The state appealed that decision to the high court, with the Illinois solicitor general saying there’s no need for a trial because of numerous other court rulings on the matter and because opponents haven’t shown they have a right to one.
Similar laws — some even requiring parental consent for an abortion — exist in 44 other states. But the Illinois version never took effect because of ongoing judicial decisions and court wrangling.
* The Question: Do you support parental notification with judicial bypass? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please.
posted by Rich Miller
Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:10 pm
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I’m strongly pro-choice, but I would want notice if I were a parent. However, I only support notice laws if the “judicial bypass” is simple and easy for the girl to use.
Comment by ChicagoR Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:19 pm
The argument that an “abusive” parent may get the notification seems outweighed by argument that a loving parent may not get the notification.
Comment by Homer J. Simpson Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:21 pm
What part of “judicial bypass” is unclear here? If there is an abusive parent, there is an alternative… one that hopefully involves getting DCFS there so we can deal with the abusive parent and getting the child safe. Planned Parenthood having easy access to $1000 without DCFS doesn’t seem to outweigh the need to get the girl out of her abusive relationship.
Comment by Quincy Dave Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:26 pm
It seems like the fact that a child would be having an abortion and not telling her parents is strong evidence that things are pretty screwed up at home.
In that circumstance, I do not see an advantage to notification.
Comment by Skeeter Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:27 pm
No. While I’ve waivered on this in the past, I believe that the most qualified person for a girl to speak to about this is a doctor. I believe forcing another person in between will lead to more harm than good.
Comment by Small Town Liberal Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:35 pm
Quincy, I would hope your side would elevate yourselves over the “Planned Parenthood is all about money” argument.
Great. You can claim that PP is just about cash.
Pro-choice people can scream that pro-lifers are all bomb-throwing terrorists.
We can do that, or we can have a rational discussion about a complex topic.
Which would you prefer?
Comment by Skeeter Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:35 pm
I’m opposed to parental notification laws, period.
A child who is too afraid to go to her parents is also unlikely to be aware that she can go to a judge. And, if she is aware, will she know how to actually find a judge to ask for clearance?
These barriers are a medieval punishment that put children at risk of abuse by their parents.
It may be a minority who are at risk of being beaten or otherwise abused by a parent for getting pregnant or for wanting an abortion.
But, protecting the minority of children who are afraid of one or more of their parents far outweighs any concerns that ‘loving’ parents might not find out their child is pregnant and doesn’t want to become a teen mom. And if someone is such a ‘loving’ parent, then what do they need to worry about. If its your kid and she doesn’t want you to know, that speaks volumes in and of itself.
Comment by jerry 101 Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:41 pm
I’m just curious about why would that teen want to bypass her parents. What could be the legal justification for a judical bypass? A parent should know that their daughter got an abortion but give me one reason why she should? I just heard one about abusive parent, but then again a good parent should absolutely know!
Comment by Levois Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:58 pm
Skeeter: Let me inform you that some daughters are impregnated by their fathers/male relatives.
It is precisely because of things being “screwed up at home” that I am against routine parental notification for young women under the age of 18.
Yes, let’s do have a rational discussion of a complex topic, shall we?
Comment by Loop Lady Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 12:58 pm
=I’m just curious about why would that teen want to bypass her parents.=
Seriously? I can’t think of anything that would be more terrifying for a teenage girls to have to tell her parents! At that tender age, and with hormones surging through your body, this is just the kind of thing a young girl might think is the end of the world.
While I am personally pro-life, I still support a woman’s right to choose.
As the mother of four daughters, man, I really don’t know what the right answer is.
Comment by Anonymous Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:15 pm
I guess I don’t understand how this is different than any other medical procedure my child might get.
She can’t go get a tattoo without my permission (or at all I think)…
Comment by OneMan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:15 pm
Parents may be loving, but also have values that differ from their childs. Bearing a child has lifelong implications for that young woman, research shows that adoption, while appealing as an abortion alternative, can be emotionally devastating and have great risk emotionally for the woman in the long run. (see information at the specified website.) http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/f_impact/f_impact.cfm Keeping the child is much more likely to be an issue for the young woman over her lifetime than it is for her parents.
I agree some counseling should take place, but also agree that it is appropriate for the physician to provide it. Parents may be loving but that does not mean that they may not act punitively (not necessarily abusively) or may coerce a child into the decision they prefer!
Comment by Pandora Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:19 pm
Twenty years ago pregnancies among 17 years olds were much less common and most parents preferred their high school kids not to have sex and assumed they were not. Parental notification laws may have been more useful.
By their own accounts, (backed up by studies) today a large proportion of 17 year olds and even younger have sex and their “loving” parents fully know about it, allow sleepovers, or at least guess their kids are sexually active and they encourage birth control. For the “accidents” that happen at that age and younger, many families and the teens themselves seem to want it to go away and know how to make it happen.
Times have changed. For those who think the girl’s parents should be notified before a young teen’s abortion what about the parents of the boy? For the same reasons or for other legal reasons should they be ferreted out and notified too? If not why not?
Comment by Responsa Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:27 pm
The other thing about this, it is sort of like concealed carry, what makes Illinois so different that we can’t have laws like this vs. 44 other states.
Comment by OneMan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:39 pm
“=I’m just curious about why would that teen want to bypass her parents.=
Seriously? I can’t think of anything that would be more terrifying for a teenage girls to have to tell her parents! At that tender age, and with hormones surging through your body, this is just the kind of thing a young girl might think is the end of the world.”
Well I can understand, but that’s not a reason to hide this from the parents. Although I know sometimes the parents panic too and sometimes make rash decisions of their own. Still it seems to me it’s better for it to be known when it happens than for it to come out years later.
Comment by Levois Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:41 pm
Loop Lady,
Thanks for that oddly rude response.
Next time, read my comments and then respond.
Comment by Skeeter Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:42 pm
I don’t have a problem with this law.
Just PLEASE keep keeping minors away from violent video games, and tattoos. They aren’t mature to handle those.
Comment by G Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:44 pm
Er, I meant “I don’t have a problem with BLOCKING this law (via legal wrangling)”
Comment by G Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:45 pm
re: Pandora “Parents may be loving, but also have values that differ from their childs”
Not a lot of sub 17 year old kids have settled into their value system yet. The values they think are acceptable at 13-16 years of age will be radically different by the time they are 30.
If things are so screwed up at home then a 3rd party needs to be brought in through the judicial process and a guardian appointed.
I also have a problem with my daughter getting an abortion and then because she is a minor I’m on the hook for the financial responsibility for any complications after the fact.
Again if the minor doesn’t feel she can go to her parents because of the incest/abuse issues then by all means get the authorities involved other than that stop trying to usurp the role of parents. I don’t think anywhere in this situation is it being said the parents can override her decision, just that they should be notified of what most would consider a procedure with long term implications.
Good parents should be able help their daughters through this by being notified, bad parents can possibly be removed from the equation.
Comment by Kevin Highland Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:46 pm
I do not support parental notification… although I would, as a compromise, support adult or counselor notification… whereas the girl must speak to a counselor or a trusted adult (e.g. an Aunt, Minister, etc.) beforehand. It’s not just abusive parents, but what if the parents are pro-life and want the girl to have a baby against her wishes — should parents really be able to compel a 17 year old girl to have a baby against her wishes? The Judicial option, I don’t think is a great solution — what teen girl is even going to know about or follow-through on that? Ultimately, we are just going to have girls having back alley abortions, out-of-state abortions, runaways, suicides, etc.
Comment by Just Observing Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:51 pm
“I believe that the most qualified person for a girl to speak to about this is a doctor. I believe forcing another person in between will lead to more harm than good”
(a) We are talking about parents, who are – legally, ethically, morally and in every other way conceivable - more than just “another person” in their daughter’s life
(b) Don’t doctors typically need to obtain parental permission – to say nothing of providing notification – before providing ANY other sort of medical treatment to a minor?
(c) I’ll stipulate that because of the underlying moral, ethical and potentially religious implications, abortion IS not just another medical procedure. What do you think they teach in medical school that makes the doctor more qualified to guide a young teen through this decision than her own parents??
Comment by grand old partisan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:57 pm
I don’t support parental notification. Not at all. If the family has a good relationship, the daughter will say something anyway. If they don’t have a good relationship, parental notification won’t make it better.
It takes two people to make a baby, but only one of them has to turn over her body. If men got pregnant, the rules would be very, very different.
Comment by Lakeview Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 1:57 pm
Based on my experience I have to agree with Lakeview @ 1:57pm.
If the government wants to legislate informed parenting, it would make more sense to pass a law the you sit down at a table and have at least one meal a day with your child. Although my son didn’t think it was too cool when he was a teenager, he turned out pretty good.
Hey - he graduated from college and got a job at the Sun-Times!
Comment by Crime Fighter Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:08 pm
I feel getting hold of a judge it a lot of nonsence.Let the girl and/or her family make the
decision.How do you get a hold of a Judge?
Comment by mokenavince Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:23 pm
I – as an adult – cannot even decide to not wear my seatbelt in a car without running afoul of the state, yet my daughter can decide to undergo invasive surgery with serious emotional and psychological implications, no questions asked???
Comment by grand old partisan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:28 pm
So we need to remove vending machines with high-sugar beverages from my daughter’s school because she can’t be trusted with the decision whether or not to drink one, but she can decide to undergo invasive surgery with serious emotional and psychological implications, no questions asked???
Comment by grand old partisan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:30 pm
I could go on, but I’ll spare everyone. I think you get my point - this is madness! Parents have - or at least should have - a right to know if their child is about to undergo this procedure.
Comment by grand old partisan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:31 pm
I voted yes, and basically for the same reasons stated by “grand old partisan” @ 1:57 pm - especially his point (b). Kevin Highland @ 1:46 pm also gives a well-reasoned opinion.
Comment by cover Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:32 pm
Skeeter: I did read them.
Excuse me, I didn’t realize you were the you’re being rude police on the blog. I found it more than a little ironic that you’re asking to elevate the discusion here.
Comment by Loop Lady Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:34 pm
“I – as an adult – cannot even decide to not wear my seatbelt in a car without running afoul of the state, yet my daughter can decide to undergo invasive surgery with serious emotional and psychological implications, no questions asked??? ”
When the cause of your failure to wear a seatbelt is because your father raped you, then you can make the seatbelt argument.
Girls who do not want to tell their parents have strong reasons for doing so. So many on the right seem to have absolutely no respect for women or what they go through to make that decision.
And then they wonder why there is a gender gap.
Comment by Skeeter Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:38 pm
Kevin in Highland is wondering about liability if something goes wrong.
Hmmn, I wonder if it is safer to have an abortion in a real clinic, or in somebody’s basement (which some girls absolutely will do if the choice to have the abortion in a real clinic involves telling abusive parents). Ahh, not to worry. I’m sure those basements are perfectly safe. No questions about liability there!
Comment by Skeeter Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:41 pm
GOP, I think you missed a few talking points. Try to work “Fast and Furious” and “Solyndra” into it next time.
I support notification with judicial bypass for minors. I would also advise abstinence for as long as you can. Knowing that won’t last forever, I support sex education and universal access to birth control without the interference of the pezzonovante of any church.
Comment by wordslinger Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 2:45 pm
The parents are responsible for minors…food, clothing, shelter, medical care, etc. This is not different than those other things, just on a topic with greater controversy.
If the minor has this procedure without the parents knowing, and she has complications afterwards, her health (life even) is put at risk because they don’t know about it.
THe judicial end run is the safety valve needed to protect with regard to abusive families and such.
Comment by titan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:00 pm
If that young girl has the nerve to go to a judge to do something she feels is necessary for her to move her life forward, she understands making a decsion.
Comment by Belle Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:19 pm
Skeeter, do you really – really - think that incest or the legitimate fear of truly abusive punishment are the only – let alone predominant – reasons why a teenage girl would try avoid telling her parents about getting pregnant? Really??
Comment by grand old partisan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:33 pm
No GOP, I don’t think that is the only reason. I think there are many reasons, none of which are any of your concern.
It is a woman’s body. You don’t get to control her body. When you can carry a child, you can make the decision. Until then, keep your nose out of it.
Comment by Skeeter Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:37 pm
We are not talking about a “woman’s” body. We are talking about child’s body. A child who need the help of her parents, even if she is scared to seek it. And I can’t think of a reason (other than incest or legitimate fear of abuse) that trumps a her parents’ right to know what is going on in her life.
Comment by grand old partisan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:45 pm
Skeeter - if the minor were an adult, there would be little argument with you. But her minor status makes a critical difference. A minor’s parents are heavily involved in all manor of life activities about which an adult is independent.
Comment by titan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:45 pm
The “judicial bypass” in the bill is just too onerous. It will lead to young girls trying to terminate eachothers’ pregnanacies, or worse, as they did in my youth before Roe v. Wade took effect. I am always saddened that we don’t remember the reasons that most Americans appreciated Roe v. Wade as better than the status quo, back in the day. Let’s not have to relearn history once again.
Comment by walkinfool Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:45 pm
It is incomprehensible to me that we would allow a 14 year-old to have an abortion no questions asked. If a girl is pregnant at 16, 15, 14, 13 she is the victim of a crime. Let’s face it our society still blames the victim in cases of sexual assault and many grown women hide their abuse. Why should we think that teenagers, who may think they were willing participants in, or somehow deserving of their abuse, are any different? Without requiring some kind of notification – to parents, judge, police, counselor, someone - we are failing girls who need to be protected. Maybe parental and law-enforcement both need to be notified. By telling her she can have an abortion with no notification, we are telling her that it is her problem, and hers alone to fix and we fail to address the abuse. That’s just wrong. I am pro-choice, but you need to be an adult to make this choice on your own.
Comment by 10th Indy Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:49 pm
No Titan, they are not. If they were, the child would inform them without a law.
The fact that the child decided against it shows that there is a problem.
You live in some lily white world where supportive parents will respond with kindness and grace. You live in a fantasy.
Comment by Skeeter Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:50 pm
Absolutely not. There should be NO parental notification needed, nor judicial oversight.
As the father of 3 young ladies I would of course WANT to know if my daughter was going to undergo such a procedure. But I don’t feel that compelling them by the long arm of the law is the way to do it.
As some others have said, having a child is a lifelong committment and decision. And I’m not the one that has to live with it. Nor should I be telling those that do have to live with it…how to do it.
Let me close with this….for all those advocating a child be compelled to tell their parents, are you also going to stand behind a parent that wants to ‘force’ their daughter to have an abortion against her will? Because if you are not, then you want it both ways.
This is a thinly (very thinly) veiled attempt to further erode a womans right to choose. Why is that people want the government out of their pocketbook, but are more than happy to invite them into their bedrooms and doctor offices?
Comment by How Ironic Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 3:57 pm
skeeter, there are parents out there who beat their kids if they get bad grades. Should we let kids decide whether or not their parents get a copy of their report cards?
Comment by grand old partisan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 4:00 pm
I voted no. If a parent does not have a good enough relationship with his child that the child wants to confide in her parent, then I don’t think it’s the business of the state to try to force that closeness.
And which parent gets notified? The parent with custody? The non-custodial parent? What about shared custody?
Comment by cermak_rd Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 4:01 pm
“having a child is a lifelong committment and decision”
unless you could give it up for adoption
Comment by grand old partisan Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 4:02 pm
Phone won’t let me vote, but I’m a yes. If a teenager can’t get a pierced ear or a tattoo without parental approval, it makes sense that a parent should be notified of the far more invasive procedure of abortion.
To those that argue that the father of the teenager is the father of the child, then I say notify the mother and arrest the father. If there is no mother than what harm is there in notifying the father as you slap the cuffs on him?
Comment by Just Me Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 4:24 pm
You all know that if the girl has the baby, SHE is legally responsible for it, not her parents? I know a nurse who works with teenage parents who has to get the teenager’s consent to give shots to the baby, and then the grandmother’s consent to give shots to the teenager.
Also, if the teenager decides to give the baby up for adoption, she is legally responsible for signing away custody, not her parents.
Teenage parents have an enormous amount of responsibility under the law, so it makes sense that they should have the right to decide for themselves whether or not to keep the babies.
And in reality, of course, it is the girls who have the responsibility. Not the boys.
Comment by Lakeview Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 4:34 pm
grand old partisan,
Yes she can give the child up for adoption. Termination, adoption or abortion those are the 3 options on the table. I know a young woman who is currently making this decision. Well, she tried denial first, so abortion is realistically off the table.
The thing is, all decisions here are going to have lifelong consequences. All of them are open to regrets. I know we are not supposed to state it, but sometimes mothers, too, have regrets.
In this case, it looks like she’s going to decide to keep the child, which means she’s going to have to move because the house she’s in doesn’t want a child with her.
Comment by cermak_rd Friday, Sep 21, 12 @ 4:49 pm