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* Pantagraph…
The deal that the Democratic-controlled General Assembly and Republican Gov. Bruce Rauner reached in June gave the SIU system $106.2 million on top of the $57.5 million it received in an April emergency funding bill for higher education. But that represents just 82 percent of what the university received from the state for the 2014-15 school year, and it’s supposed to cover 18 months’ worth of expenses, from July 1, 2015, through Dec. 31 of this year.
* And what will they be doing with that money?…
Speaking after the meeting, Dunn said the university system has decided to apply all the state money it has received thus far to expenses from the 2015-16 school year and to continue urging lawmakers to provide adequate funding for the full 2016-17 school year.
“We thought, ‘Let’s get the bills paid that are out there,’” he said. “And that gives us a very strong argument to say, ‘Now fund us for ’17. You didn’t even get us totally caught up for (fiscal year) ’16.’”
posted by Rich Miller
Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:31 am
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Yep. That is the smart move.
Comment by Juvenal Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:33 am
“You know what? Southern has a couple campuses. And you know what, if you get Southern to one campus, that might be best. Sorry Edwardsville, watch out Carbondale. Closing state universities is my goal and hopefully my legacy”
- Fake Bruce Rauner
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:34 am
– ‘Now fund us for ’17. You didn’t even get us totally caught up for (fiscal year) ’16.’” –
You need to show Gov. Darwin that you’ll survive first.
Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:37 am
More waste the Guv is cuttin’
Comment by Henry Francis Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:41 am
Our Governor seems to be determined to do to Higher Education in Illinois the same thing he did with LSSI, Catholic Charities and a hundred more contracted private social services agencies.
Look out EIU, WIU Chicago State and all the rest. Rough times ahead.
And lets remember ( thanks to a frequent commenter - Governors Own and He Does Not Care.
Comment by illini Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:42 am
In government, it all comes down to money. And this shows the priority of higher education by Illinois’ political “leaders.”
Comment by Sir Reel Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:43 am
A prudent approach.
Comment by A guy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:45 am
82% over 18 months is 54% for the full year, and another 27% for the half year. Starving the beast, combined w the stopgap, is working. Funding is cut nearly in half, and the stopgap shut everyone up. But “its just awful we dont have a budget.” Yeah, right.
Comment by Langhorne Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:45 am
===Look out EIU, WIU Chicago State and all the rest. Rough times ahead.===
“If I can just close Eastern, Western, Chicago State, and close one campus at Southern, then my legacy of boarding up universities will be complete.” - Fake Bruce Rauner
Indeed - illini -, Rauner will own the universitIES closing. No one else.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:52 am
Yes. Pay the old bills. That way they are off the books, and maybe the vendors will provide services
Comment by Thoughts Matter Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:54 am
across the board admin cuts, no departmental secretaries or “conference” travel budgets, cut out athletics and the gobs of assistant associate deans, “diversity offices” and focus squarely on instruction. across the board salary caps. any future tax increases to support the universities must come with tight oversight of this wasteful spending. I don’t want my tax increases going to a job core. Somehow TN TX WA etc. manage to have low taxes AND universities. these states are not third world, if the can do it why cant illinois get with the program?
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:59 am
It sounds like Illinois could learn something from SIU.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:02 am
Anonymous - Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:02 am:
It sounds like Illinois could learn something from SIU.
You beat me to it!
Comment by Federalist Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:08 am
atsuishin, is that why the Chancellor of the University of Houston system makes over a million dollars? I’d say that gets cut first.
Comment by Honeybear Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:08 am
===across the board salary caps.===
That’s fun.
I’ll decide what you make, or we’ll cut your pay until I’m satisfied.
There are never simple answers, and if you want to look at this as “easy” things, that doesn’t include matching funds, fellowship or endowment monies, competitiveness of facility for research or grants in education…
The “waste” bit… solved in 3 sentences never is a realistic view.
Then there’s the starving of universities to close them. That’s actually happening.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:13 am
Honeybear, university of houston instate tuition is $7,7000 a year for ungrads SIU is $13,000. plus UofH is larger with over 42,000 students. while I agree that 1 million salary is hard to justify for any university leader, UofH is cheaper attend and their and the cost to the taxpayer is less. why cant illinois get with the program?
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:21 am
==- atsuishin - Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:21 am:==
Barely. UH gets 22% of its budget from the state of Texas (1). For 2014-15, SIUC was slated to get 23.6% of its budget from the state of Illinois. It did not get even that, meaning SIUC was cheaper to the taxpayer than UH.
1: http://www.uh.edu/giving/students/get-the-facts/
2: http://chancellor.siu.edu/budget/faq.html
P.S. Wise up.
Comment by Precinct Captain Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:31 am
Precinct Captain, texas is a very low tax state with no income tax, low sales tax and even property taxes lower than illionis. Illinois taxes are extremely high be comparison. In no way can you argue their universities cost taxpayers more than illinois’ bloated and wasteful ones. UofH educates almost double the students and has half the tuition for residents. plus it is in the 4th largest city in the country, comparison to carbondale. maybe you should take your own advice.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:39 am
Houston is the 10th largest media market.
Dallas-Ft. Worth is larger.
Ugh.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:49 am
atsuishin
Texas has a revenue source - oil - that we do not. You are not comparing apples to apples when you talk about revenue sources for the two states.
Your austerity measures for a university completely ignore what attracts students that pay tuition. And attracts and retains decent faculty.
Comment by Montrose Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:57 am
Expect more of this.
They really cannot continue to operate if they stiff their current suppliers on long past due bills.
Comment by walker Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 11:02 am
Houston is the 4th largest city by population. Population and media market aren’t the same thing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population
For example, Oklahoma City is the 27th largest city, but 43rd largest media market.
http://www.newsgeneration.com/broadcast-resources/top-100-radio-markets/
Let’s make sure we are talking about the same things when comparing or objecting to others.
Comment by a priori Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 11:11 am
- a priori -
I know what I’m doing abs exactly why I’m doing it….
This false belief that a city’s population is equal to the economic impact on the numbers that live within borders is completely ridiculous.
The financial impact to buying ads in the Houston market versus the Metroplex (DFW) isn’t in the same ballpark in reach of people.
Dallas-Ft. Worth will arguably pass Chicagoland as the 3rd largest media market in American, in roughly 15 years, if not sooner.
Houston is the second largest media market… in Texas.
That’s a more honest look at population then Houston continually expanding the ameba.
Back to the Post with this…
If you can’t measure the realistic impact by not recognizing the realistic regional measurement, by people deciding how to spend money and reach of people…
… how can even remotely take serious the 3-4 line “easy” cuts and comparable that aren’t equivalent.
It’s the Chareston region effected by EIU…
It’s the Carbondale, Macomb… those regions effected, not the silly number of people inside a border.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 11:25 am
I think that if you read Dark Money by Jane Mayer you will see the Governor’s playbook. Starve the beast is a term used in that book. It is a strategy to force the universities to turn to private money, funded by the myriad of conservative groups. George Mason University is a good example.
Comment by Teach Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 11:53 am
- Montrose - wrong
the oil endowment is only for UT and texas a&m systems. uofh doesn’t get oil money. Plus if you haven’t notice the price of oil has drop drastically. my question stands.
http://www.utimco.org/scripts/internet/fundsdetail.asp?fnd=2
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 11:56 am
“across the board admin cuts, no departmental secretaries or “conference” travel budgets”. SIUC already has done this, a number of department secretaries already are split between two departments. So low-paid secretaries have had their work load doubled with no extra pay. Sweet. When AP staff and faculty retire or move elsewhere, their positions are being left open, again doubling the work load on the survivors. Double sweet. And, oh yes, “conference travel” budgets have been eliminated for most SIUC colleges. What this means is that junior faculty cannot give presentations or chair symposia at major conferences that they need for promotion or tenure unless they pay for it themselves. Get it? Faculty paying the cost of promotion/tenure requirements mandated by the university. If they don’t, odds are they will not get promoted or get tenure. Triple sweet. And guess what? Faculty who are younger are leaving for places like the University of Houston or Tennessee while SIUC finds it harder and harder to attract high quality faculty (would you come here?) who can in turn attract students. When Rauner gets done SIUC will be ittle better than a community college rather than a Carnegie III research university.
Comment by Dutch3001 Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 12:01 pm
– Oswego Willy –
First — I love your comments. You are the only one who consistently points out the impact coming to EIU and WIU with Rauner’s current program. I appreciate all the heavy lifting you do on this blog as well.
Second — Thanks for the clarification. I think we are talking past one another just a bit. Let me explain. I don’t claim that economic impact is a pure function of population. That would be a strange belief to have. Economic impact is complex. How wealthy the population is matters. For example, Beverly Hills, CA has roughly the same population as McDonough County. If a significant portion of your population lives below the poverty line, their population on the economic impact isn’t that much. So we agree with the silliness of that premise.
Population and not media market is relevant to enrollment at properly run universities. (Not counting CSU.) This is part of the problem that no one is talking about publicly at EIU, WIU, and other Illinois state universities. Declining enrollment is as big a problem as the budget. Right now, Illinois is the largest exporter of students to other states for college. When you have half a billion dollars in deferred maintenance on a campus like WIU and declining state support, then students are going to go other places.
I also agree that solving the university problem in the state is really important and not as easy as “across the board cuts” people think. We are the 5th largest state in the country by population. Illinois also has the 5th largest GDP. We CAN afford world class universities if we want them. We just have to pay for them by keeping them up to date. Illinois high school students would likely want to stay in Illinois if the schools were supported. They haven’t been, and now they are on the verge of collapse.
So population matters for enrollment at the university which matters for overall cost for instruction. If we had 20% greater attendance in the classes that will run no matter what, the cost of instruction won’t go up. Faculty don’t get paid on number of students in their class. 20 or 40 in the same general education class, the professor gets paid the same. Economic impact of the schools is a much harder things to calculate.
I hope that clears up where I think we were talking past one another.
Comment by a priori Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 12:19 pm
- a priori -,
Thank you for your very kind words. I think Rich Miller and this blog have done a great job of highlighting many difficulties for the towns that host state universities and while I’m grateful for your words, I’d like to think I’m one of a far larger chorus, so big I’m afraid to name some in fears of leaving out so many people reminding us all, in comments to Rich’s post, the warnings that need to be made. For the group, I also thank you.
To your comment,
I agree, and your clarification is right and just.
I think what is troubling in these funding issues and the purposeful “un-funding” of state universities is the damage to regions of the state that will not recover and be whole, given what will be lost once Eastern or one of the Southern campuses close, or the discrediting of Western and allowing Western to continue without educational recognition.
No matter the messenger, the message of “start with 10% cuts!” is ignorant to the complexity of funding formulas and the windfall, domino style funding that leads to additional dollars. That drives me up the wall.
That said, cuts and budgetary overview under the premise of first meeting the expectations of the goal and purpose of the university to exist. What is tiring is the refusal by those criticizing to go beyond their ridiculous simplicity, and those seeing that no overview in specifics in budgets will yield no waste in spending.
While this is all going on, “today”, we have a governor trashing Illinois, and dismantling the state universities… and others then point to enrollment drops and see no correlation that is hurting universities.
It’s time Macomb and Charleston, Edwardsville and Carbondale that cheering for Raunerite “reforns” is code for their towns and regions be decimated, as they vote against their better selves.
Enough. That’s what “vote accordingly” means, and understanding ideology isn’t going to save universities, voters will.
With great respect, and thanks for your kind words.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 12:50 pm
I’ll sing in your chorus any day when this song is on the program.
Comment by illini Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 1:25 pm
===”No matter the messenger, the message of “start with 10% cuts!” is ignorant to the complexity of funding formulas and the windfall, domino style funding that leads to additional dollars. That drives me up the wall.”
my underlining point is this: SIU needs to focus on instruction to survive, all other items should be axed or funded by some other way than another tax increase.
I am not ignorant of any of the items you raise oswego willy, however I am being asked to pay more in taxes to prop these institutions. and given the circumstance I cannot help but wonder so many other states can provide quality services to their citizens without the huge tax burdens that illinois has–plus in the case of TX universities provide quality education with cheaper tuition. illinois private sector wages have grown barely enough to pace with inflation while public salaries continue to boom along with growth.this is why I proposed a salary cap. if private sector wages are low growth where exactly do you expect to get the tax dollars for ever increasing public sector salaries?
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 1:28 pm
===SIUC finds it harder and harder to attract high quality faculty (would you come here?) ===
there’s currently a glut of PhD’s across disciplines. while its true the “superstar” professors would look down SIU do its location and/or facilitates. I would be extremely skeptical of the notion they cannot attract quality faculty right now. I just talked to a group of poli sci phd’s from UC San Diego and they were struggling to find a tenure track post.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 1:35 pm
===SIU needs to focus on instruction to survive, all other items should be axed or funded by some other way than another tax increase.===
Ugh…
“…the message of “start with 10% cuts!” is ignorant to the complexity of funding formulas and the windfall, domino style funding that leads to additional dollars. That drives me up the wall.”
I hope you felt better…
If you think people make too much money, give me 10% of your gross wages… then I’ll know your serious.
===…without the huge tax burdens that illinois has…===
Please list, in direct comparison the revenue streams “Texas” has, and the exact mirrored streams Illinois also enjoys.
Thanks.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 1:37 pm
=== I would be extremely skeptical of the notion they cannot attract quality faculty right now.===
What go you base this on, the one antidotal “discussion”?
I would argue, in any business, professor or not…
“Would You take a job where the business is cutting how they provide their product and the business may close within 5 years. Is that attractive to you?”
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 1:40 pm
If you think people make too much money, give me 10% of your gross wages… then I’ll know your serious.==
i am little annoyed by this comment. I dont work for the state. I have my own business. I cannot tax you or anyone else when I want raise, unlike the public sector unions. and I give far more than ten percent of my salary to the various taxes I must pay.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 1:48 pm
Those working for SIU are also… “taxpayers”…
So… there’s that.
Anything else?
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 1:52 pm
==Please list, in direct comparison the revenue streams “Texas” has, and the exact mirrored streams Illinois also enjoys.==
Taxes in texas
no income tax
no corporate tax
low sales taxes
lower property tax
are your going to attribute this all to an oil fund?
Or maybe its because texas is growing. Since 2000 texas has added 6 million residents. while illinois has barely grown and chicago lost 200,000. maybe just maybe, low tax and pro growth policies work.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 1:53 pm
What is the revenue oil brings to Texas?
What about tourism revenue?
Your list has types, but no monetary values.
That’s how measuring… works.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 1:59 pm
Hi Oswego Willy the burden of inertia is on you to present the case for why taxes should be increased since this your argument. You are the one complaining about the status quote then turning around and condescending on my proposed solutions. you make the case that my taxes should go up.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:02 pm
==- atsuishin - Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 10:39 am:==
Please read what you wrote (or is too much to keep up with all the bull in your head?) “UofH…the cost to the taxpayer is less.”
That is a categorically false comment.
Comment by Precinct Captain Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:04 pm
===You are the one complaining about the status quote then turning around and condescending on my proposed solutions. you make the case that my taxes should go up.===
More revenue is required. It’s not a give. That’s why Rauner fails.
No, you said SIU is wasting money and your tax dollars are being wasted and we need to be like Texas.
You’ve yet to make your point. You can make your point, with figures (dollars) at any time.
No one is stopping you.
===these states are not third world, if the can do it why cant illinois get with the program?===
Ok, show your math work.
Thanks.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:07 pm
Obviously there are others who are willing to destroy our State Universities and Community Colleges!
Sad, Sad, Sad!!!!
I have to wonder where they went to college or where they expect their children or grandchildren to go?
And just as with the social service agencies - when their employees go they will not come back. If our “best and brightest” go out of state to get trained for a good paying job why would we expect them to return to Illinois?
Comment by illini Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:11 pm
==More revenue is required. It’s not a give.==
This one sentence explains why democrats lose. it oozes with arrogance.
My argument is available in the above comments. If anything is wrong there let me know. Texas budget and economic information and available on google its mere existence as a low tax high growth states disapproves the argument that raising taxes “not a give.”
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:19 pm
===This one sentence explains why democrats lose. it oozes with arrogance.===
I’m not a Democrat and further… Rauner’s own budgetary outline required revenue.
Please. Keep. Up.
Please.
===My argument is available in the above comments. If anything is wrong there let me know.===
Links? It’s your argument. Not mine. Also compare Illinois’ revenue. Again, it’s your argument. Use numbers.
===Texas budget and economic information and available on google its mere existence as a low tax high growth states disapproves the argument that raising taxes “not a give.”===
You need to tell that to Rauner, his own budgets require revenue.
It’s not a give.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:22 pm
- illini -
Your voice is heard. We need to keep singing. I appreciate your voice too.
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:43 pm
- atsuishin - so you think its ok to destroy people’s jobs in order to save a couple dollars on your tax bill?
Comment by Mama Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:46 pm
=== Precinct Captain - Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:04 pm:===
if your going to insult me at least be correct, unfortunately your wrong SIU cost more for the taxpayer than UofH.
UofH taxpayer cost per student $4360
SIU taxpayer cost per student $6568
http://www.uh.edu/af/budget/FY2015PlanandBudget.pdf
http://siusystem.edu/financial-administrative-affairs/planning-budget.shtml
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 2:57 pm
=== - atsuishin - so you think its ok to destroy people’s jobs in order to save a couple dollars on your tax bill?==
If the job serves no purpose yes. Also I support salary caps unless they could be funded without taxpayer funds. SIU needs to boost enrollment in order to pay for salary increases.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 3:04 pm
===Also I support salary caps===
Then you should just let others decide what you make, and whatever the difference is give to me!
I think you’re overpaid by 10%…
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 3:08 pm
oswego willy
I think you’re overpaid by 10%…
You don’t contribute to my salary so you opinion does not matter here.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 3:24 pm
===I think you’re overpaid by 10%…===
That doesn’t surprise me, you seem to think anyone but YOU is overpaid, lol
Again, we’re all taxpayers, even those working for SIU…
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 3:28 pm
Oswego Willy
I may very well be over paid but for me to earn a paycheck people must come to my business for services. The state of illinois does not need to do this they can pass and tax bill and i must either pay it or move to another state. (which I am working on)
==Again, we’re all taxpayers, even those working for SIU…==
Therefore all taxes should have a say including those who do and don’t work for siu.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 3:37 pm
===Therefore all taxes should have a say including those who do and don’t work for siu.===
What does this mean?
Your point is taxpayers deserve more, those working at SIU are taxpayers too.
I can’t find your point except SIU workers make too much money…
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 3:49 pm
- atsuishin - Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 3:37 pm: -
If you do not know anything about running a large university, you have no right to make comments about the people who do know what they are doing.
Comment by Mama Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 3:49 pm
Oswego Willy,
Sorry I meant all taxpayers should have a say in future salary increases both those who do work for siu and those who do not.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 4:03 pm
===…all taxpayers should have a say in future salary increases both those who do work for siu and those who do not.===
Nah.
It’s up to HR, agreed to union steps, and a contract for those that fall under those job parameters.
That’s how employment works….
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 4:08 pm
This thread since 9:59 has been very different than
I might have expected or hoped for given the topic and the subject that Rich posted.
Thank you, Willy! I have your backside but you are much more erudite and quicker than I am when it comes to dealing with this kind of reasoning.
And Bob is not even on this thread!
Comment by illini Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 4:30 pm
Oswego Willy, we have have to agree to disagree. the people with your mindset have been running the state since I was born (except the past 15 months of rauner) and I think they will win 2/3s majorities this November with trump dragging down the GOP.
So you’ll get your tax hike, government workers get their raise and you can be happy. Hopefully I will only need to suffer a few more years of this before can I move my family out and go to a low tax business friendly state.
Comment by atsuishin Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 5:13 pm
===the people with your mindset have been running the state since I was born===
I have no clue what that means, “mindset”…
===(except the past 15 months of rauner)===
No budget, decimation of social services, higher education, and finally signing a stopgap which Rauner said he wouldn’t do… so I’m sure you’re… happy?
===and I think they will win 2/3s majorities this November with trump dragging down the GOP.===
Never know. Raunerites have a load of cash.
===So you’ll get your tax hike===
Revenue is required. You can’t see that, that’s on you.
===government workers get their raise===
Really? I doubt that. I doubt it because I understand what’s going on and not a believer in “all or nothing, with or against”…
===and you can be happy.===
I don’t know what you think is making me or anyone happy right now, but this governing isn’t,
===Hopefully I will only need to suffer a few more years of this before can I move my family out and go to a low tax business friendly state.===
Good luck!
Comment by Oswego Willy Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 5:33 pm
Atchoocha, I’m more than willing to listen to any honest, transparent, argument that the Raunerbots want to make that higher ed in Illinois is bloated and should be cut.
Put it in writing, with crazy data and charts, like the honest big kids do.
But you don’t have the guts for that.
Instead, you willingly sabotage higher ed through Darwinistic political actions, and then cry impotence about “Turnaround Agenda” and “Madigan” on the never-ending, dishonest, “Sammy Maudlin Show.”
You’re just dishonest. Step up and have the courage of your convictions.
Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 8:42 pm
Word at 8:42. I will gladly go through every line item expenditure at each and every university. Not sure that your definition and my definition of ‘necessary’ are going to align. I will start with certain ‘fellows’ and ‘institutes’ that develop policy.
Comment by blue dog dem Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 9:59 pm
illini - Tuesday, Jul 19, 16 @ 4:30 pm:
And Bob is not even on this thread! ————–
Oh, I don’t know about that. Perhaps Bob is posting under the name “atsuishin” today. They sure seem to be using a lot of the same tactics.
Comment by Lynn S. Wednesday, Jul 20, 16 @ 12:19 am