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* Press release…
In response to an immediate need for solutions that will decrease the number shootings in the City of Chicago, State Representative Sonya Harper, DChicago, will hold a press conference to announce the introduction of a bill that will require the stamping of serial numbers on all ammunition sold in the state of Illinois. The press conference will be held on Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at US Bank, 815 W. 63rd St., 4th Floor Community Room, Chicago, IL, from 10am to 11am CT.
“Since we are having such a hard time tracking the flow of illegal guns into our communities, let’s start tracking the bullets.” Harper said. “More than 2,600 people have been shot in City of Chicago so far this year, many of them children in my own community. Being able to track fired bullets directly back to the seller will help law enforcement agencies target those who are distributing ammunition illegally.”
Attendees will have the opportunity to ask Representative Harper questions about the proposed legislation. Joining Harper will be national security analyst Dimitri Roberts and CEO of Ammo Coding Systems, Dr. Matt Harrington. Roberts will explain the practicality and possible timing of implementing the solution that will result from passing the bill. Dr. Harrington will be on hand to address the technical aspects of this legislation and how the tracking systems works and can result in decreased homicide rates.
“Ammo Coding Systems exists to track ammunition from creation to the point of sale, leaving a precise footprint of everywhere the ammunition travels,” said Dr. Matt Harrington. “By implementing this system that identifies individuals, who illegally sell weapons that sensibly take lives, will ultimately and quickly save lives.”
Thoughts?
posted by Rich Miller
Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 1:39 pm
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If it were to pass an i believe it wont, you would just see an increase in the use of a revolver where the bullet casings would stay in the gun after its fired.bad guy dumpscasings in pocket serial number useless!
Comment by highspeed Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 1:44 pm
Maybe State Rep. Kelly Cassidy can be there to reintroduce her bullet tax legislation.
Comment by Piatt County Whig Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 1:45 pm
Thoughts like this give credibility to the NRA.
Comment by blue dog dem Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 1:46 pm
highspeed- They intend to somehow stamp the actual projectile/bullet, not the casing. At least that’s what I gather from their website.
Comment by Robert the 1st Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 1:50 pm
Wonder how they’d code bird-shot…
Comment by Robert the 1st Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 1:51 pm
It might be a nice boost ion income for her friend from Ammo Coding Systems,but in prctical terms this is easy to defeat by 1) collecting brass after firing the weapon, 2) going to Indiana to buy ammo where you only need a driver’s license and not a FOID card. This would apply to any of our neighbors where ammo is also cheaper.
She didn’t think it through.
Comment by JS Mill Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 1:57 pm
guns already have serial numbers on them and yet she says they can’t track the flow of illegal guns. how is numbering the ammunition going to work any better? there’s nothing stopping people from crossing the state line to buy unmarked bullets.
Comment by Homer J. Quinn Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 1:59 pm
There are so many things that are illogical about this proposal. First and foremost, has the State Rep. ever seen a slug after it is hit something. Depending on the slug, the deformation would make reliable etching of a serial number almost impossible to read.
How on earth is this going to apply only to Illinois? Ammo makers don’t manufacture specific lots to go to specific places. The tracking system would be a nightmare.
So I am going to end with a snarky comment - “Ha buddy, you want a box of unmarked 9mm shells?”
Comment by Huh? Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:03 pm
More silliness from Chicago democrats.
Comment by DGD Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:07 pm
Love the fine print on the Ammo Coding Systems website that says there will be a licensing fee for every bullet sold. Wonder who benefits from that?
Comment by mjrothjr Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:08 pm
It’s not “silliness, DGD; It speaks to the level of desperation and powerlessness that many communities feel over the increase in gun violence. You may not agree with the Rep., and that’s ok, but at least respect the emotions around this issue.
Comment by ExCMS Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:11 pm
Robert the 1st - Stamping the projectile is even more useless. Projectiles generally flatten and pancake upon entry. A SN would most likely not be recognizable after such trauma.
Comment by Anon the 3rd Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:14 pm
ExCMS…..let’s compromise…..its desperate silliness.
Comment by Get a Job!! Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:18 pm
I have stated here many times. WE ARE THE ONLY STATE IN THE UNION THAT REQUIRES A FOID CARD. WHAT GOOD IS IT DOING? You have to have a FOID card to purchase a gun or ammo in Illinois. Do you think these crimes are being committed By law abiding citizens?
Comment by blue dog dem Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:21 pm
**but at least respect the emotions around this issue**
Agreed, but respect is mutual. An idea like has so many holes that its looks like all other gun-related legislation that comes out of Chicago, with its only intent being to harass gun owners.
Comment by DGD Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:24 pm
It’s just a nonsense press pop.
Comment by Not It Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:26 pm
===with its only intent being to harass gun owners.===
I think the intent is to do something, anything to curb the gun violence rate in Chicago. This might not work, but we’ve had something like 2500 people shot in Chicago so far this year. Doing nothing isn’t working.
Comment by 47th Ward Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:27 pm
Just another example of Election year posturing that if enacted even she must know would have absolutely no impact on the number of shootings in Chicago.
Comment by SOIL M Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:28 pm
I am sure people in Chicago are desperate but ammo coding systems web site tells people how to get around their own coding system. Amazing.
Comment by pool boy Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:28 pm
I say ‘meh…’ but I don’t have any better ideas…. Sadly there seems no cure for gun violence.
Comment by Ducky LaMoore Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:28 pm
Ok serial numbers are fine but will it really bring down the shootings? Lets say they have serial numbers , does this help the conviction rate in cases? What impact does this legislation have? What is the end goal? To me it makes no sense.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:28 pm
Another idea that will not work to prevent the gang shootings and illegal guns. What about the people who reload their own ammo and pick up extra brass at the shooting range that have been left behind. I’m sure all gangs are getting their ammo from the local Gander Mountain or Bass Pro. I don’t see how this would help or let alone pass.
Comment by Gator Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:29 pm
Lol hilarious so now responsible gun owners will have to pay more money for ammunition. And now they are going to create another profitable operation for gang members to smuggle in ammunition from another state that is unmarked.. How about they start enforcement of the gun laws currently on the books….
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:30 pm
Because criminals will purchase ammo with serial numbers on them… Nothing but a ploy to say something was attempted to reduce gun violence. The idea is there, but pass or no pass, I don’t think this is effective
Comment by Clark Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:40 pm
It sounds like the only point is to track illegally sold ammo to a store. But the store could have legally sold the ammo to someone who illegally resold it.
There are also internet sales and as already pointed out, you can cross the border to buy ammo.
Plus who is going to track the millions of rounds used every year in target practice.
And you can bet that if this bill even makes it out of committee, there will be a run on ammo with the skittish NRA folks buying and stock piling legacy rounds. So you have millions more rounds sitting around people’s basements waiting to be stolen by criminals.
Comment by A Jack Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:41 pm
Homer hit it on the head. The guns are already numbered but yet she says “Since we are having such a hard time tracking the flow of illegal guns into our communities, let’s start tracking the bullets.”
So let’s use a system that you have already stated doesn’t work to track guns, but apply it to ammo.
Not even to get into the myriad of issues (grinding off of numbers like some criminals do on guns, shotgun shells, imported ammo, simply buying ammo across the border, increased costs, etc) this is just a political pop with no value.
One would have to then think this isn’t out of desperation by the rep, this is the rep trying to capitalize on the desperation of residents to score political points.
Comment by m Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:41 pm
A few thoughts, comments and questions:
- Will bill include both civil and criminal liability protection for ammo manufacturers? Probably should. Trying to hold them accountable looks like overreach.
- Excellent comments about bird shot, obtaining unmarked bullets in other states. Although I don’t think the bad guys shooting folks on South/West side of Chicago are using bird shot but good comment nonetheless.
- Good discussion around casing vs. projectile. The casing makes the most sense although I suppose there’s a way to leave some kind of identifying mark/# on the projectile, but to what end?
- Good comment about guns having serial#s and our difficulty tracking guns coming into the state. I’m curious to know if Illinois has entered into any multi state compacts or fed/state law enforcement efforts to slow down the rate at which illegally obtained fire arms are coming into the state?
Complicated and heartbreaking issue especially for the human beings who live in those communities most affected by random, nightly gun violence.
Comment by Dozer Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:44 pm
Checked their site, the numbers go on the casing and the back of the projectile. That second part is smart since it would require taking the ammo apart to get rid of the number. But there are still so many holes in this idea that it isn’t even a remotely plausible solution.
I’ve said it here before, we keep reading stats where a small number of gun shops are responsible for a large number of guns recovered by police in Chicago. Why isn’t anyone pushing legislation to get more money to let law enforcement go after the sources of the guns. You already have serial numbers on them. You have a president from CHicago, why isn’t he pushing COngress for more FBI and ATF funding to combat this?
Comment by m Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:50 pm
If every citizen was allowed to carry open or conceal, crime would go way down. Simple solution.
Comment by Digity Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:57 pm
“Ammo Coding Systems exists to track ammunition from creation to the point of sale, leaving a precise footprint of everywhere the ammunition travels,” said Dr. Matt Harrington.
What sort of doctor is Matt Harrington anyway?
Comment by estubborn Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 2:58 pm
50 rds un a box of pistol ammo. So 50 individual engravings. To avoid the rifling/deformation the base of the rnd is best. That’s a lot of handling to be semi practical would need to be done by Manufacturer. Gonna be almost impossible to implement even if it passed.
Comment by Mason born Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 3:00 pm
If this passes, which is geographically closer for criminals to get their bullets, Gary or Kenosha?
The issue is real and communities from gun violence need something to have hope for. This legislation isn’t that hope. They should put their efforts behind changing how long gun offenders stay in jail, not this…
Comment by Reality Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 3:02 pm
@estubborn -
Check out his Linked In profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-harrington-phd-958311a
It makes for interesting reading.
Comment by JoanP Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 3:16 pm
gun powder taggants a better idea for tracing purposes.
Comment by D.P. Gumby Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 3:37 pm
They have a photo of the smashed bullet with the number still visible. https://www.facebook.com/159721177762881/photos/a.159728654428800.1073741825.159721177762881/159728661095466/?type=1&theater
Comment by NoGifts Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 3:43 pm
Please God tell me that the taxpayers of Illinois aren’t actually having to pay for nonsense like this and are supporting the lifestyle of the person proposing it!
Comment by Just Curious Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 4:14 pm
Why would anyone buy ammo in this state to start with ? And as it’s been pointed out above, we have some of the strictest gun laws in the entire nation and our violence is totally out of control.
I highly doubt if this proposal would make even the smallest dent in the problem.
Comment by JDuc Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 4:22 pm
Ignorance is not an attractive quality in a legislator, and this guy is clearly clueless. Even assuming we couldn’t buy ammo over the state line, most shooters I know have squirreled away components to load thousands of rounds of ammo for their favorite firearms.
Comment by Skirmisher Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 4:39 pm
Digity, am not sure crime would go down with open and concealed carry for “everyone”. I am sure you would have qualifications to “everyone”. I took the concealed carry class and have the license. One main thing the class taught me (may not fit for others tho) is if I plan on goin somewhere where I feel I need to carry, maybe I should reconsider going there. Also, I would be afraid to be in a situation where I had to rely on the other members of my ccl class. Most (myself included) are definitely not ready to “protect” themselves and others. I continue to obtain quality training, but am still not there. It takes a special mindset to be able to pull the trigger on another person. To the post: it won’t pass, and would do no good if it did.
Comment by Blue Collar Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 4:52 pm
Let those doing the violence have at it unfettered so as to wipe themselves out.
Comment by ~Pfft Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 5:03 pm
@ Ducky LaMoore - Sadly there seems no cure for gun violence.
And yet, amazingly, of all the modern nations only the US is afflicted with such dramatically high levels of gun violence.
I wonder why the other countries were able to “cure” it and even to essentially “prevent” gun violence but we are unable to do so… Or is it that we are unable to do so.
Hmmmm…
Comment by A. Nonymous Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 6:59 pm
That picture actually explains a lot about the process. To engrave the base of the bullet as that one is, requires the round to be disassembled or pulled, then engraved and reassembled. A few problems with this.
a. cost of a .45 cal UMC rnd is about 49 cents to disassemble and reassemble will add at least half that to the cost more if the company is paying for capital costs to set up the system.
b. When the round is reloaded it becomes reloaded ammo which voids most firearm warranties and waives most liability for failure of the weapon.
c. in the process of reloading if too much or too little powder is used the firearm may suffer a catastrophic failure which presents a risk of great physical injury to the shooter.
d. if a-c seem acceptable risks then you come up with the next issue. Consumers are not going to pay drastically higher prices for potentially unsafe ammo that voids their warranty. Esp when cheaper ammo is just across any border. Going to be a big hit to outdoor retailers.
e. I really question the scale of this operation say there are 1 million Foid cards issued in IL if all of them fire just 1 box of pistol ammo that’s 50 million rnds. Personally I went through 600 22LR on Thursday alone. That’s a lot of ammo to be bought disassembled, engraved, and reloaded. Ammo many won’t buy.
f. Even if the state imposed a ban on out of state ammo purchases how would it work any better than the fireworks ban?
I think the legislator means well but this is a non starter that couldn’t work. Perhaps If nationwide all bullet manufacturers including Barnes, Hornady, etc. were to do it it would have a future.
Comment by Mason born Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 8:35 pm
Wouldn’t a smarter and less expensive way to spend our tax dollars be to just buy everyone with a FOID card a brand new safe? They give tax rebates to homeowners who buy green technology for their homes, I think buying each gun owner a safe would make a big impact on preventing stolen guns, and stolen ammo.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Aug 16, 16 @ 10:10 pm
This legislation is pointless if enacted at the State level. For example, the Hammond, IN Walmart Supercenter, purveyor of ammunition and various other fine miscellaneous and sundry goods, is less than 10 miles away from the center of the Englewood neighborhood. Drive 15 minutes and you could have all the bullets without serial numbers that you like.
Guns are a serious problem in Chicago and other large urban areas, but this is not the answer.
Comment by benniefly2 Wednesday, Aug 17, 16 @ 8:19 am
Serious problems deserve serious solutions. This ain’t it.
Comment by Michael Westen Wednesday, Aug 17, 16 @ 8:53 am
Fun fact: the rate of firearm ownership in Chicago is less than 1/3 the rate for the rest of Illinois, yet the murder rate in Chicago is more than 9 times higher than the rest of the state. Far fewer guns per capita, far more gun murders.
It’s almost like there’s something besides guns that are the problem?
Comment by Jerry Thursday, Aug 18, 16 @ 1:22 pm
Political theater at its finest? Maybe not its finest. Ammunition Coding Systems has been shopping this tech around to different state legislatures for a decade, and tech is all it is. Tech to which they hold the licensing rights, and for which ammo manufacturers would have to pay licensing fees. To ACS. Their own webpage admits as much. They have no equipment to actually engrave the serial numbers. Ammo manufacturers would be on the hook for that, too, according to their webpage. This would be a pretty sweet deal for ACS if they could get just ONE state legislature to mandate that ammo makers be forced to employ, and license, their tech. Not to be cynical, but this IS Illinois. Is it not unreasonable to wonder if there was a little sumthinsumthin for anyone wanting to grease the wheels to make this happen?
Comment by beeroy Thursday, Sep 1, 16 @ 6:24 pm