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You may have been following the controversy over whether SIU President Glenn Poshard’s 1984 doctoral thesis was plagiarized. Here’s a brief summation…
Portions of Poshard’s thesis may have been lifted from as many as 19 other works by 22 authors, the [Daily Egyptian newspaper] said. In some instances, Poshard borrowed heavily from another text but changed a few words here and there, the newspaper said. Some of the copying appeared verbatim, the newspaper said.
Gross said almost all of the copied sections were found in a portion of the dissertation titled “review of the literature,” suggesting Poshard meant to illustrate that he was synthesizing the works of others and not expressing original thoughts.
A group of SIU faculty and students formed to defend the honor of former SIU Edwardsville campus professor Chris Dussold who’s suing the university over being fired for allegedly plagiarizing his teaching statement. That group apparently did the analysis and leaked the results to the DE. The timing was curious…
Gross also questioned the timing of the revelations, which came one week after the university and Dussold broke off negotiations over a settlement of his lawsuit.
Today, the Tribune editorial board weighed in…
Poshard acknowledges that he neglected to put quotation marks around some material (16 times, according to the Daily Egyptian), but says he believed that was OK as long as he cited the sources in footnotes, which he might have forgotten to do a few times (14, the newspaper says). But that’s not plagiarism, Poshard says.
Yes, it is. And it’s an egregious and unforgivable offense for a university president, of all people. Poshard should step down. […]
He allowed in at least one interview that he wouldn’t have been named university president without that doctorate. He’s right, and now that degree has been exposed as a fraud.
The DE’s original story is here.
Question: Should Glenn Poshard resign? Explain.
posted by Rich Miller
Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 8:53 am
Sorry, comments are closed at this time.
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He should either step down voluntarily or be forced to. He is the president of the one of the State’s major universities, and, despite that many people believe and feel that he should have been governor, that his governmental and educational policies are meritorious,and that he is considered an icon in southern Illinois, he must be held to the same standards as faculty members and students. There cannont be a double standard. Otherwise, the message sent is that, if you possess the qualities listed, you can violate academic standards with impunity. If Mr. Poshard is as honorable as most people believe he is, he must leave.
Comment by ANON Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:05 am
No. No. No.
The Tribune is over-simplifying the process by which advanced degrees are obtained. In addition to the dissertation, Poshard took courses, passed prelims and comps, did research (which was supervised and reviewed), and defended his work in front of his dissertation committee. Its not like he got his PhD for a ten page paper which he copied.
This sounds more like an editing error. It is hard to imagine the University chucking anyone’s degree for an editing error. I would bet a close examination of most Dissertations and Theses would reveal a similar number of missed citations. I am sure I missed a couple.
Before this man’s reputation is further sullied, I would suggest going back through a few randomly selected Dissertations with a similar fine-toothed comb to see how many missed citations are typical.
Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:06 am
I think, in his honor, all rsponses should be in the form of unattributed/mildly altered quotations, to whit:
“I am not a crook. I simply have a wide stance when it comes to quotation marks.”
Comment by Muskrat Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:08 am
Yes, he should resign. He obtained the position on a false premise.
Comment by PJ Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:09 am
By the time one is getting a doctorate, a person knows simple rules on providing sources and punctuation. We’re not talking about a freshman in high school.
Comment by really now Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:12 am
He should resign and become the athletic director at Illinois.
Comment by Fire Ron Guenther Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:14 am
assuming these sections appear under the caption review of the literature, and not in the main body of his work, then its much todo about nothing. He should not step down.
Comment by Ghost Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:17 am
Curious situation. All dissertations have a chapter titled something like, Review of the Literature. This chapter isn’t original work, so the plagiarism argument is problematic. However, the lack of citations shows sloppy work. I wonder why his dissertation committee didn’t catch it? In my opinion, the jury’s still out. We need to see the specific alleged plagiarized sections and their context. Was he taking credit for others’ work and ideas? Or, was he presenting others’ work and ideas without identifying them?
Comment by Doodles Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:17 am
To “Pot calling kettle”… so you’re saying since other students also plagiarize that makes it okay? It’s not that hard to properly cite other peoples work. As soon as you’re about to start typing what someone else wrote, hit that little key that’s a quotation mark. Then after you’re done copying, hit that key again. Then list the source. If the quotation marks are there but no source is listed then I could see it as an honest mistake. But without the quoation marks he was just plain stealing. Especially when he changed a few words here and there.
But please don’t try to say it’s okay because everyone else is doing it!
Comment by PJ Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:20 am
SIUC’s motto: Deo Volente “God willing.” Take it from there.
Comment by If It Walks Like a Duck... Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:23 am
No. Although academia rightfully takes these types of problems very seriously, I think that as a practical matter there should be a statute of limitations on plagiarism and most other offenses.
1983 was along time ago!
To put this in persepective, I seem to recall reading somewhere that Martin Luther King may have committed plagarism in his doctoral thesis.
This in no way diminshed my opinion of Dr. King as the single greates figure in Post World War 2 American history. Glenn Poshard is a good man and a God in Southern Illinois. All our leaders are both saints and sinners. Leave him alone!
I hate footnotes and bibliographies myself. And I never have and never will undersatnd the controversy that aborted Joe Biden’s campaign several decades ago.
Comment by Captain America Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:30 am
Could Poshard and Blagojevich trade jobs?
Comment by Bill Baar Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:41 am
This is the onset of a new type of attack on individuals with a written past. I understand professors now have this ability to compare their student’s work product to that of previously published work. Who is behind this effort? I bet there is someone who will benefit……
Before we run Mr. Poshard out of town on a rail, I would like to see the same standard applied to everyone else in that University. I bet there will be similar errors found in many documents.
I am amazed by the comments here and in the press who clearly do not have a clue as to how a dissertation is produced.
I think ‘Doodles’ has the right idea. The section referred to as ‘Review of the Literature’ rarely contains items which are construed to be central to the purpose of the dissertation. Missing quotations or incomplete attributions are not critical. However, if the author claims ownership of the idears contained, it could be problematic.
It would be refreshing to have a complete analysis done before calling for the resignation of a person. However in this media driven age, there is no time for that.
Comment by plutocrat03 Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:44 am
Sheesh, first the Tribune makes sure this guy doesn’t become governor, now they want to make sure he loses this sweet gig.
That apology they had to write to Poshard, you remember, the one acknowledging he was right about George Ryan all along and the Trib dropped the ball during the 1998 campaign, that must really have stuck a nerve at the Tower.
And here I was unaware the Tribune knew SIU existed outside NCAA March Madness or debunking the occassional Iraqi veteran hoax published by the Daily Egyptian.
Yeah, he probably should step down, but forgive me for puking when the Tribune gets all high and mighty going after Poshard, again.
Comment by Steve Trachsel's fan club Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:45 am
Let’s get real folks…does it matter? His review board approved his method of citations and approved him as a candidate for a doctoral degree. If people that reviewed his dissertation said what he did was fine..they are at fault, not the student. A dissertation process takes an extremely long amount of time to complete and is reviewed on a regular basis by your review board. Let’s keep that in mind before calling for someone to resign!
Comment by dumbdumb-24 Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:49 am
Baar,
as an SIU student I find that to be a poor trade
Comment by Saluki Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:50 am
What good is a doctorate if it is based on plagarism? What good is a university that issues doctorates for plagarised material?
The entire reason for the university’s credibility is based on a belief that those who posses a degree from it had to face intellectual inquiry and pass test to prove their knowledge in the fields they degreed in.
Poshard got his doctoral degree fraudulently. There is simply no excuse to write a doctoral thesis incorrectly - 16 TIMES! Every period, every comma, every word within a doctoral thesis is deliberate. How can anyone claim to make mistakes on a DOCTORAL thesis? Thats like a surgeon killing his patient but still believing he earned his medical degree.
It is said that current and recent university students do not see plagarism as the fraud it is. They have become comfortable with cutting and re-using text. They justify the intellectual theft of plagarism because they see it as easier than being original. They have devalued college degrees and see nothing wrong with it.
If Poshard stays, he agrees with those ignorant students that intellectual honesty, originality and hard work means nothing if you can get away with fraud in obtaining a degree and that the end justifies the means to accomplish a goal.
There is plenty of room in this world for original thinkers. If you want a doctoral degree, try becoming one of them first.
Comment by VanillaMan Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:50 am
No. I think we need to start checking and assessing everyone’s writings that are dissing Poshard. At least everyone with some sort of degree that required a major thesis. Heck, we can start with the experts at both the Tribune and the group at SIU. As search engines become more powerful and more information is available on the web, it is going to become easier to find these sort of things. Truthfully, I think there is a cottage industry of “experts” researching major papers or potential opponents to use against them.
Comment by Logical Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:04 am
Thes people need to spend thier time in more fruitfull areas. Trying to bring President Pohsard down for something that happened decades ago seems to me to be a waste of time.
Comment by Milorad Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:09 am
When Governor’s State University was created, it gave out credit for “life experiences”. Over a dozen state agency officials picked up degrees with little classroom effort, based on their administrative experiences and demonstrations of accomplishments.
SIU President Poshard has far better claim to his degree than virtually all of the state government “life experiences” Governor’s State degree recipients. He researched an issue and wrote on what was current in the field. The varied sources that he used demonstrates his research and study, even if he was sloppy in separating his thoughts from those of others.
Yes, those in academia should be held to high standards within their own field. But Poshard is an atypical educator, as Paul Valas is, and technical qualifications don’t always bring in the best applicant. I would say that Poshard, with his love and appreciation of southern Illinois and SIU and his demostrated leadership towards the best that his region can be, should not have needed a doctorate to be considered for the SIU Presidency. But since he was, let us not disqualify him for addressing that factor even if some of his coursework or papers were less than steller.
Anyone want to go to Yale and review some of George Bush’s papers on file? Let’s give Poshard the same “gentleman’s C” equivelency and let the matter rest.
Comment by capitol view Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:12 am
I’m sorry, but the lack of correct punctuation and quotation marks is not a sign of plagiarism, sloppy work maybe, but not plagiarism.
Copying somebody else’s work and slapping your name on it isn’t plagiarism.
Comment by Down in Egypt Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:13 am
The Tribune’trial and firing squad is a little over the top. Remember this was the paper writing how tough it is to get a CDL under George Ryan in the days before the 1998 election.
The Trib also used John Schmidt’s driver as a reliable source against the Attorney General
Poshard’s mistake is a major error. He should try to hold on.
If he can he will the best guy to lead the university.
Comment by Reddbyrd Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:23 am
===Copying somebody else’s work and slapping your name on it isn’t plagiarism.====
It is if you don’t attribute. I mean, that’s the very definition of plagiarism, isn’t it? Definition from Plagiarism.org…
1. to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one’s own
2. to use (another’s production) without crediting the source
3. to commit literary theft
4. to present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source.
Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:28 am
Trying to determine exactly what happened 23 years ago is ultimately a fruitless exercise. We’ll never be able to reconstruct it to our satisfaction.
Unfortunately, in life, once leaders get to the point where the primary conversation about them is whether or not they’re going to get fired, it makes it very difficult for them to lead. Thing about elected officials, corporate chieftains, sports head coaches, etc. How many times does someone face months of discussion about their job security, and then rally from it to serve in that job successfully for years? Far more often, the animated discussion of their job prospects compromises their effectiveness, and with their effectiveness compromised, there’s no point in having them in the job anyway, and they get fired. That’s probably the spiral Glenn Poshard is in now, whether he plagiarized or not.
Glenn Poshard has done a lot of honorable things for southern Illinois in his career. Whatever happened with his thesis two decades ago, and whatever happens to him now, I hope people will not lose sight of that.
Comment by Gus Frerotte's Clipboard Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:29 am
“- Bill Baar - Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 9:41 am: Could Poshard and Blagojevich trade jobs?”
Beat me to it!
Comment by Ken in Aurora Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:35 am
My dad was nearly complete with his dissertation when his primary advisor quit. His new advisor and different review board members told him he needed to redo his dissertation. In essence, they told my dad his two years of hard work were for naught.
Academia seems to forget that people make mistakes, but those in the higher levels of academia often refuse to admit their own gaffes. School newspapers are often written and edited by students who hold grudges and simply write articles or editorials for the sake of seeing their names in the paper. When I was a writer for my university newspaper, many of the liberal advocates on campus disliked our paper because we had some conservatives on payroll. The school paper actually had to hire a couple of liberal writers to stop several groups from filing discrimination complaints. And I’m being serious.
Dr. Poshard’s review team and advisor(s) should have caught this. When you sink as much of your life into something like a dissertation, the pressure must certainly cause some students to commit errors. It’s the faculty and staff who must catch these errors and punish students who blatantly try to cheat the system.
Poshard should not resign unless a task force or investigative commission finds there to be foul play.
And I agree with Capitol View. How many prominent figures in today’s America received a helping hand through school? In fact, I remember a recent report that either Harvard or Yale (or maybe both) gave 90+% of its students A’s at one point, and several teachers never gave formal exams or finals. Doesn’t that skew things a bit more than people realize?
Comment by Team Sleep Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:35 am
It appears that some folks are being swayed by other qualities that they know Poshard to possess. Maybe he is totally qualified to be the President. But the question if very basic: Did he knowingly copy another person’s work without giving credit? Based on the evidence, the answer is yes. It doesn’t matter how good he his now or how long ago it happened. So quit making excuses for why it’s okay. It’s not okay. A line has to be drawn somewhere. He should come clean and face the consequences, which may not necessarily require him to step down. But to lower the bar to make it okay is not the answer.
Comment by PJ Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:37 am
VanillaMan if you write a chapter in a book that is clearly identified and understood by those revieiwng the submission as a summary of the other work in this field, its pretty darn clear your not claiming authorship of the content. If The fact that your summary is sloppy with the citations does not take away from the fact you are not identifying that work as your own. The sloppyness does raise some interesting questions about the author and the review of the work, however.
Comment by Ghost Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:37 am
No!
1.) Happened almost a quarter of a century ago.
2.) The review team ok’d his paper
3.) I think he was probably hired for more then his doctorate.
Comment by Highland Online Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:45 am
I am bias as an SIU alumnus, but Poshard has been great for the university. The DE has been a disaster for the university going so far as to make up characters and stories about fake soldiers. I say keep Poshard and find more responsible journalists for the DE. Their credibility is little to none.
Comment by Leigh Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:48 am
So Ghost - sloppiness is OK in a doctoral thesis to you?
So - what good is a doctoral degree based on a sloppy thesis?
What good is a university that allows a sloppy thesis to be the basis of a degree?
When you start allowing excuses for Poshard, you start allowing university standards to become null.
By the way - will those folks who wish to take Mr. Poshard’s side please check their grammar and spelling? It is a little difficult to read through your comments on this issue with so many errors. Your postings leave me to believe that you would obviously have no problem with Poshard’s plagarism since your standards seem to be about the same as his.
Comment by VanillaMan Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 11:00 am
===Your postings leave me to believe===
“lead”
lol
you asked for it.
Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 11:02 am
NUTS!
Comment by VanillaMan Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 11:28 am
I can’t even pretend to be elitist!
Comment by VanillaMan Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 11:29 am
Why should a Univ. President need a PhD? In truth, he should not. Many firms are led by people without specialized knowledge of the company’s product.
Lets be clear. Universities are political minefields. SHBG Poshard has made some enemies, and they are circling for the kill.
To try and say that sloppy quoting in the section “SURVEY OF the LITERATURE” (ie, by definition other people’s work) is plagarism is a bit much.
Interestingly, I can’t find a copy of the offending document online. Dissertations are by definition supposed to be public, and used by other researchers. In these cases I always like to read the original for myself.
SHBG = Should have been Governor.
Comment by Pat Collins Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 11:39 am
NO he shouldn’t resign, or at least not at this point. I would be willing to bet that this kind of things happens all the time, I reviewed paper that were set to be published for professors before and missing citations happen quit a bit, yes his dissertation committee should of caught it, but people make mistake. As long as in the research section of his paper he was claiming other people work as his own, I dont think it much of problem
Comment by RMWStanford Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 12:01 pm
People baffle me. To loosely paraphrase Editor Bob Ellis of the West Frankfort Daily American (lest I be accused of plagarism), the public cries for honest public servants, then tries to crucify them every chance they get. I’m sick of it. Anyone who knows Glenn Poshard knows what kind of a man he is and knows this is total bunk.
Comment by SIU Graduate Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 12:23 pm
Even the haters at SIUE , who leaked the info to the DE, cannot get too worked up.
From the Alestle online poll
He should apologize. 5%
This is being blown out of proportion. 26%
He should step down. 53%
I don’t care. 15%
Comment by Reddbyrd Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 12:26 pm
PJ: No, I do not condone plagiarism. However there is a distinction between intending to not cite and missing a citation by accident.
For those who have not written a thesis or dissertation, a quick description might help clarify the process and explain how a citation might be missed. You start by reviewing available literature and preparing a proposal, you continue by reviewing more literature and conducting research, you conclude by reviewing more literature and summarizing your findings in a paper that is typically hundreds of pages long.
Throughout the process you take copious notes, write thoughts and observations in the margins of the notes and more ideas and thoughts and references in space that remains. Those notes are used to write the thesis or dissertation.
When working with hundreds of pages of notes, it is very easy for an idea to become separated from its citation. The author can go back and forth through the document looking at every sentence and trying to match it up to a possible citation, but it is hard to imagine a few citations not being missed in the process.
The review committee is (or should be) familiar enough with the candidate’s work to catch instances where an author presents someone else’s work as their own. But missing quotation marks in a cited section is unlikely to be caught.
By definition any non cited use is plagiarism, but from a practical standpoint, there is a big difference between intentionally presenting someone’s idea as your own and inadvertently missing a few quotation marks. The first should result in expulsion, the second in an editorial revision.
Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 12:32 pm
At the very least, an inquiry should be conducted outside of SIU. Then, let the chips fall where the may. Conducting an in-house investigation will never clear GP’s name.
Comment by me anon Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 12:56 pm
“Why should a University Pres. need a Ph.D?”
Excellent. Will all you guys send recommendation letters for AA when he applies to be President of
Yale?
Anyway, regarding Dr. Poshard:
1) Let’s remember who raised the bar nice and high for plagiarism at SIU. Oh, yeah..Glenn Poshard.
His next mistake was not showing the least bit of contrition or even having a good excuse when first confronted with the allegations. The spin about only having 30 minutes to respond is bunk. They have been working on this for months and it was a poorly kept secret on the campus.
2) Assigning the investigation to people that work for him was just goofy. That’s like Tony Rezko saying “I’ve hired Mike Rumman to review all my real estate deals to make sure they were legit.” That group did the only reasonable thing they could and punted the ball back.
3) He has painted his board into a nice corner. They can’t drop the matter or their credibility is shot, but they may well think that the charges are nonsense and would like to move on. No chance of that at this point.
4) If he is innocent, he should not object to taking administrative leave with pay while an independent entity, perhaps the Auditor General, reviews the matter and issues a report to the Board of Trustees.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:03 pm
If he missed some punctuation, no big deal. Sloppy work but not enought to lose a job over. If he didn’t attribute 14 TIMES as the DE says, that’s more than sloppy work. The culture on university campuses is different than in the real world. He’ll never be able to govern effectively if he stays. SIU has the most internal conflicts of any university in the system. He’ll make a bad situation even worse if he doesn’t leave IF the 14 times is correct.
Comment by Silent Majority Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:04 pm
An idea. The best PhD program in educational administration in Illinois is at Illinois State University in Normal. They also have the most widely respected faculty in that field although I know that every other university will disagree with that statement. Let the faculty at ISU review and make a report to the SIU board. It would be an arms length assessment by a highly regarded department.
Comment by Silent Majority Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:13 pm
I agree completely with AA and Vanman. OUCH! That lightning bolt really hurt.
Comment by Bill Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:25 pm
No, he should stay on as President. Just make the small change to the Student Conduct Code that says it is OK for the University President to plagerize, but not for them to do so.
Comment by Porter Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:28 pm
Bill Baar, I go along with Poshard being governor; however, a big NO to a trade with Blago, who doesn’t understand constitutional law so how could he possibly oversee SIU’s law school?
Comment by Little Egypt Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:34 pm
If Poshard should resign for not siting proper references regarding his doctoral paper he did over 20 years ago, what do you do to the Governor’s Deputy Chief of Staff who was imprisoned for not disclosing information about terrorist who murdered people over 20 years ago?
The answers, of course, is destroy Poshard and say all kinds of nasty things about how he is hurting our children and make a martyr out of Deputy Chief Guerra and say how unfair it is to question his past.
I know it seems ridiculous but I would be willing to bet Poshard loses his job and Guerra gets promoted.
Comment by Garp Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:38 pm
Given the number of times the Chicago Tribune has lifted material from CapitolFax without sourcing or credit, this seems like the pot calling the kettle black.
In the end, I think its up to SIU students, faculty and staff to decide whether they think the University would be better off with or without Poshard. I have no doubt, given Poshard’s track record, that he’ll do what’s best for the school.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:47 pm
YDD, that thought did cross my mind, but I didn’t want to be the one to say it. lol
Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:48 pm
Only at a university could there be such a tempest in a teapot. Poshard’s dissertation doesn’t have to satisfy you or me, it had to satisfy his committee, and it did.
Comment by steve schnorf Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 1:58 pm
He is not qualified to be president of SIU but, like Joe Biden (D-NJ), being a plagiarist makes him qualified to run for president of the United States.
Comment by Bidenitis Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 2:02 pm
Why has his dissertation come under scrutiny so many years later?
This is a man who has lived an incredibly decent, honorable life: why go digging for dirt on one of the cleanest public servants we’ve been lucky enough to have?
Comment by a spectator Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 2:03 pm
Joe Biden’s from Delaware, and his ripping of the Neil Kinnock speech was pretty blatant considering Biden claimed that his ancestors worked in the coal mines, even though no one in his family has ever worked in a mine. (according to the Senator)
I’m in agreement with those who say the sloppy work does not warrant Poshard’s resignation. It doesn’t seem that he was trying to pass off other’s work as his own. Although his academic credentials were necessary for him to get this gig, I think there is pretty general agreement that his years of public service and knowledge of the workings of Springfield played a much greater role, and that hasn’t changed.
Comment by Juice Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 2:19 pm
This is silly. SIU is not Yale or even U of I, it’s a small state school and the responsibilities of Poshard probably have nothing to do with the dissertation. Maybe it helped him get the job, but so what? People pad their resumes all the time, but if they are shown to do good work, no one particularly cares. In this case, he didn’t even lie, his thesis was simply supervised by an inept board who should have caught this.
Comment by cermak_rd Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 2:39 pm
Bill, time to buy some Lotto tickets!
Comment by Arthur Andersen Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 2:40 pm
The people who did the digging did so because they know every Thesis and Dissertation is likely to have a few of these errors. (see my post above)
If there were a serious problem, the reports wouldn’t discuss 16 omitted citations but a findings/conclusions section lifted from another source, courses credited but not taken, original data created out of thin air, etc.
This is much ado about nothing, facilitated by a media that goes for sensationalism over substance.
It is unfortunate that the state and university will probably lose a great leader over this. Of all the recent top level politicians in Illinois, Poshard is one of the most trustworthy.
Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 2:40 pm
The instructor of a class decides if you met the criteria for a grade. The committee for a thesis or dissertation decides if the writer met the department’s criteria of acceptance through the Q&A process and basically hounding the writer to get a good product. Unless the committee members for Poshard’s paper were a bunch of idiots, he met the criteria of the department. To come back 23 years later and start saying he failed to cite 14 of 200? citations (just guessing it is alot) in a lit review is a real stretch. It’s not like he faked his data or stole the basic concept from an obscure governmental study. Looks like someone is out for revenge based on the level of work the DE reporters put into it. Just how much has the Trib and many other newspapers (DE included) lifted from other sources to use in daily stories that are not cited? Wonder who wants to get even with Poshard that they went digging this far?
Comment by zatoichi Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 2:47 pm
The problem for SIU is excusing Poshard while firing two other professors for plagurism last year. The actions together are indefensible.
Sadly, Poshard must go.
Comment by Downstater Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 2:49 pm
“I agree completely with AA and Vanman. OUCH! That lightning bolt really hurt.”
We try to be intellectually honest, don’t we Bill? When you were right after the 2006 election, who was first to admit it? Me. So, when I write that one of your posts belong in the Planter’s Hall of Nuts I consider you honestly and sincerely nuts too!
Now, if I can just get you to use that yardstick to measure up Mr. Blagojevich - well, we’ll work on that at next week’s session, won’t we?
Comment by VanillaMan Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 2:50 pm
Cut him some slack. After all he was/is a politician. If that is the worst offense committed by our elected officials, then think of how well things would be operating in this country.
Comment by Papa Legba Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:03 pm
“Pot calling” and Steve Schnorf are both right.
You really can’t get a feeling for this, or have sympathy for Poshard, unless you have written a dissertation and gone thru the process of working with a dissertation committee.
For example, one of my committee members wanted me to change how I described the results of a particular study. I changed the language to be more or less what he suggested, only to find out — quite by accident — that the language he had suggested was almost identical to that used in article discussing the same study! He didn’t tell me about that other article when he shared his words of wisdom. I wouldn’t have known that the change was copied from someone else, but if I hadn’t caught it, years from now someone might be suggesting that I had plagerized someone else’s work and I might not even remember that it was offered by a committee member as a different way of presenting my same basic thought! And when a member of your dissertation committee suggests a change, you make it!
Even to say that there were 14 examples may not tell you much. If one example is the complete lifting of a page of someone else’s work, that indicates more than just shoddy research. That should have been caught by both the doctoral candidate (shame on him, you don’t make a mistake like that) AND the dissertation committee (shame on them, they are supposed to be paying more attention to the candidate’s work, often on a day-by-day basis) in my opinion.
Errors can and do occur in a dissertation. Most, but not all, are caught prior to dissertation defense by both the candidate and the committee. Dissertations can run hundreds of pages, one more boring than the next. They are often based on notes written on stacks of index cards, highlighted portions of journal articles and lecture notes, and committee margin notes hand-written on draft after draft of the basic document.
Whether this is a real problem largely depends on the nature of the error in my mind. As Steve said, he had to satisfy his committee, and he did.
Comment by Cogito Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:03 pm
Papa,
I’m all for cutting some slack, but how do you explain that to the two other professors with lesser positions, or a student who committed plagurism and is still “learning”.
Comment by Downstater Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:05 pm
Poshard should not step down and the university will have a legal battle if they try to force him based upon this.
I understand the various points of view posted, but I am concerned with the lack of understanding that some comments seem to display. Before calling for someone’s head, we should all be certain that we understand the criteria for judgment. It’s not sufficient to judge someone based upon a process which many have never experienced. A thesis contains a literature review as an entire section DEVOTED TO PREVIOUS WORKS AND AUTHORS. It is incredibly hard to claim intentional plagiarism (and yes, there is a large difference between intentional and unintentional–ask anyone in academia) based upon errors in the literature review section. Sloppy, yes, but probably not plagiarism.
VanillaMan…I tend to agree with you on many issues, but I can’t do it this time. No thesis or dissertation is perfect and expecting such is absurd. When writing and reviewing research studies which are literally hundreds of pages in length and based upon previous research from hundreds of other studies there are bound to be some mistakes. I worry about any system of judgment based upon expectation of perfection…we would all be failures if the same was expected of us.
Comment by the wonderboy Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:19 pm
Oops Rich,
It’s a late correction, but you’re right. My line should have been “copying someone’s work and slapping your name on it IS plagiarism”. I inadvertently added the “n’t”.
Never post a reply on the Capitol Fax blog and answer the phone at the same time. Mistakes get made.
Comment by Down in Egypt Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:23 pm
When did Biden move to Jersey?
Comment by 47th Ward Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:38 pm
so the heck what !!! big deal at this stage in the game
Comment by annon Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:40 pm
A teaching statement is one page, two tops. It either is your work, or it isn’t. As has been beaten to death by now, missing some quotation marks in a lit review is not even on the same continent, let alone the same ball park.
I have been on search committees. Copying a teaching statement? Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Missed some quotation marks in the lit review of a 200-page Dissertation? Why are you bothering me with trivia?
Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:44 pm
Sorry, make that 111 pages.
Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:47 pm
Now all someone with time on there hands needs to do is comb through the lit reviews of all the accusers’ These and Dissertations and find the errors.
What a waste of time.
Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:53 pm
Henry Kissinger is credited with this observation:
“What are the fights in academia so vicious? Because the stakes are so small.”
I admire Poshard, but given that allegations of academic dishonesty were grounds for the dismissals of others at SIU recently, it’s hard to argue his side. I hope a review finds that he did nothing wrong, but he’s already damaged his own credibility.
At the end of the day, a university president’s job is to raise money. It isn’t to teach. Even if he was stripped of his Ph.D., SIU should hang on to him and let him do that job.
Comment by 47th Ward Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 3:56 pm
no, he shouldn’t be asked to step down. a problem with a paper written years ago, which as someone pointed out is only part of the process of obtaining a doctorate isn’t sufficient reason to ask him to resign. and I read that he did something about an enrollment decline problem. His job performance is more important than some technicality
Comment by anonymous Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 4:13 pm
The people defending Mr. Poshard strike me as Nixonian, pardon the profanity.
Comment by Looking for honesty Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 4:16 pm
I gotta say, this is incredibly fruitless.
Dussold never should have lost his job, since his ‘plagiarism’ was questionable at best. Wendler ‘plagiarized’, but lost his job for a completely different set of reasons. Now Poshard ‘plagiarized’…a quarter-century ago.
I think the most valid point is that SIU granted the degree already. A review board in the 1980’s said this was good, that he defended his thesis well, etc. And remember, this was before he was Congressman Poshard or Candidate Poshard or President Poshard. He was Poshard. He used no sway to get approved…
…and really, if the academic board had had a problem with it THEN, what would they have done? Told him to re-do it. Which he’s offering to do now (though they haven’t taken him up on it).
He’s overwhelmingly qualified to lead the insitution, but that’s beside the point. The point is, the worst punishment he should have NOW is the punishment he would have received THEN — reworking the paper to make it comply.
Comment by Formerly So Ill, Now No Ill, Still Ill Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 4:17 pm
It’s interesting to see all the Poshard apologists here.
This wasn’t a high school paper, it was a doctoral thesis. He didn’t plagurize one statement. He plagurized 14!
If SIU keeps Poshard they might win the battle, but they will lose the war of credibility and stature. I hope they are willing to pay the price.
Comment by Downstater Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 4:35 pm
Apologists? Please. This seems to have brought the Poshard-Haters out. Calling for the guy’s head on a platter for this?
If you look through the comments above, many of us are trying to point out that calling citation errors in the lit review (AKA the “I didn’t write any of this” section) is pushing the definition of plagiarism to the limit. Bottom line: he didn’t claim it as his, but it wasn’t crystal clear to a few people whose work it was. (I say a few people, because if the committee had questions, they would have had him fix this. If it were in research or conclusions, there would be a big problem.
Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 5:12 pm
There is much back story to the attack on Poshard that is not known or being told on this blog. If you want to know why after so many years the DE happened upon this story, you need to dig. It really has very little to do with plagerism and everything to do with revenge.
Comment by Leigh Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 5:20 pm
Did the alleged plagiarism cause him to get the doctorate or would he have not recieved the degree if he referenced correctly? If the failure to note correctly wouldn’t change the outcome it is obviously an honest mistake.
Comment by Garp Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 5:31 pm
whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
fire him
Comment by MIDSTATE Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 5:58 pm
As an adjunct faculty member of several colleges, I can attest to the fact that students today think nothing of plagiarizing. Some of them will copy whole pages off the Internet and turn it in as original work product. Then they stare, open-mouthed, when they get a zero for the work. They were told upfront what plagiarism was and what would happen if they got caught. They were still mesmerized by the response. Times have indeed changed. That being said and having produced a Masters thesis, you cannot imagine the pages and pages of notes, notecards and writing involved. I am really not surprised if some punctuation was faulty. You have to re-read it multiple times and then you want to change it, so it’s a Catch-22.
Comment by Disgusted Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 6:05 pm
The academic merits of this case will not be determined, thank God, by the Chicago Tribune editorial board. They slandered Poshard back in 1998 and are too eager to slam him again for something about which the facts have yet to be determined. Shame on them. Leave the poor guy alone. He would have been a far better Governor than George Ryan, without question.
Comment by DuPage Dave Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 7:31 pm
I don’t know Poshard, I don’t believe he would have made a better Governor than George Ryan, and I think this whole issue has already consumed far more newsprint and cyberspace than it’s worth. He earned his doctorate years ago and everybody that I know that knows him says he a good person and an excellent university president. Leave the little minds to debate the number of angels on the head of a pin and move on.
Comment by steve schnorf Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 7:44 pm
Jeez. I agree with “Pot” and wonderboy. Most people who have earned advanced degrees recognize that the crucial fact in this situation is that the errors allegedly occurred in the Lit Review. That IS crucial. The Lit review is a section in which you INTENTIONALLY restate what other people have already written! You would still strive to attribute the work correctly, but it is recognized that you are NOT claiming that section of the dissertation as your own. There is a huge difference between not properly attributing work and claiming the work as your own.
I would like to see the Wizard’s dissertation, myself. It sounds to me like a tempest in a teapot. I’ve always respected Poshard, he’s one of two Democrats I have voted for in 20 years. I really doubt this is what it is being made out to be.
Comment by HoosierDaddy Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 8:01 pm
The Tribune spouts it’s hate for a Southern Illinois Democrat. Like that is news. I’m sure they will be endorsing George Ryan for the job of SIU President.
Comment by (618) Democrat Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 8:06 pm
Poshard should NOT resign unless he believes he will become too much of a distraction for the university. If that is the case I’m sure he will, even though I think this thing has been blown WAY out of proportion. I don’t know the details on the other individuals at SIU that were dismissed for plagerism, but I do know the details in this case. I believe it is highly possible for someone to miss putting in quotation marks or other things like that. For goodness sakes, a dissertation may be hundreds of pages. People usually have boxes and boxes of source information written in books, on notecards, etc. One person cannot possibly be expected to complete a perfect draft of something so monumental. People that write things like that for a living have companies that edit their work. If the dissertation committee accepted his dissertation then as far as I’m concerned the issue is closed.
Comment by RJW Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 8:31 pm
Very late in the game here, but an SIU grad. I don’t know if Poshard should lose his job or not. If he’s a good President then (as mentioned above) say his “life experience” qualifies him for the job. I’ve heard both good and bad about him as President so I don’t know how I feel about that.
On the other hand, if someone were to go back and look at my thesis and found multiple instances of plagiarism (even if only in the lit review) I have no doubt my degree would be seriously called into question if not outright stripped from me. One or 2 instances I might be able to easily deal with, but 16 instances including full paragraphs I would be in very serious trouble. I had tons of notes and papers and all of that, but I checked my quotes with a fine-tooth comb. I would expect someone quoting a paper of mine to have the same integrity and respect.
Comment by keepmeoutofIL Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:22 pm
Keep: I would like to think my lit review was pretty clean, but reflecting back on everything that was going on when I put it all together…
I still have all the notes, and I thought everything was kosher, but this kind of scrutiny…I think a lot of us would be surprised at what we messed up.
Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:50 pm
I’ve lived in So. Ill. all my life, & I still have not figured out what GP has done for this area. SIU spent $100,000, if I’m not mistaken, on a “search” for a new president when everyone knew who it was going to be. Walter Wendler was accused of plagiarizing his very OWN work & was sent packing from SIU. No sympathy here for GP.
Comment by Southern Illinois Voter Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:55 pm
I have known Glenn Poshard for ovewr 30 Years, and he is someone to Look Up to. Let him “Correct” his “mistakes”. Let the SIU Board of Trustees look into this matter and get this straightened out, once an for ALL. After all, his thesis was signed off by the various Professors in Mr. Poshard’s Dept all of those years ago.
Go Poshard!
Comment by Larry Pulley Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 10:57 pm
Give him a mulligan, let him correct the citations, and move on.
One thing missing in the dicussion: he was probably caught using ‘modern’ search tools that weren’t available for him to use in 1983. A student today should be held to a higher standard, b/c those tools are available. Judging a 1983 paper by today’s accountability standards isn’t fair.
Comment by Frank Sobotka Friday, Sep 7, 07 @ 11:29 pm
There is as much hypocrisy, if not more, in academia than there is in politics and government.
This whole deal seems revenge-based as opposed to accuracy-based.
Comment by Former Member of the Bombay Bicycle Club Saturday, Sep 8, 07 @ 8:53 am
This is a temperst in a verrry old teapot. There are two issues. First, should his doctorate be removed. Second, should he resign as Preisent, whether or not he has an earned Doctorate.
Frankly, his thesis advisor and his review committee should have found egregious error. It is not likely they had not read the literature in the field. If they had not, what does it say about them. In addition, a cursory reading of the review of Literature chapter should have revealed that certain paragraphs were without citation. That would have required Dr. Poshard to go back and fill in the citations.
The most that should be done is an erratum and corrigendum be published, revising the Review of Literature Chapter. At no place did dr. Poshard claim those ideas as his own.
As for resigning, bushwa. The Board of Trustees should commend him for his work as an Administrator, a Fund Raiser and as a figure to which current students can take as an example of his everyday moral behavior.
There may be more here than meets the eye. Is Dr. Poshard attempting to reverse the declining standards of knowledge among his undergraduate?
Comment by Truthful James Sunday, Sep 9, 07 @ 11:48 am
At the University of Chicago this thesis would never had made it past the first submission for review.Under no circumstances is this form acceptable nor indicative of an original work without the requisite documentation from original source material or direct attribution. This is unacceptable academic practice and can’t be the standard at SIU.The degree is and would be worthless in academia.
Comment by Loyal Alumn-Uof I 65 Sunday, Sep 9, 07 @ 12:48 pm
James,
There is really only one “standard” in academia. That is, to acknowledge someone else’s contributions.
If Poshard continues as President of SIU, SIU (and, thus, the state) are saying that we don’t care about that standard anymore.
Comment by Balance Monday, Sep 10, 07 @ 11:05 am