146 Comments - OneMan - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:23 am: You don’t want to make the CTU the martyrs here and Rich is spot on, you are not going to break them. - truthteller - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:26 am: Tribune needs to hire some smarter people to actually research who the teachers work for in the first place and its not the mayor. - Actual Red - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:27 am: What better way to end a strike than to offer new, less favorable terms than the ones that started the strike! /s - Joe Bidenopolous - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:31 am: The Tribune also claims it’s about money, which both sides acknowledge it’s not really. Further, in their ‘man-on-the-street’ pre-strike piece, literally none of the people interviewed were CPS parents. But yeah, they don’t have an agenda. - Almost the weekend - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:31 am: The Bruce Rauner strategy… I miss those days. - Tribune Editorial Board - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:32 am: === My unsolicited advice is don’t listen to the Tribune. Nobody’s gonna break the CTU and nobody wants a long walkout. The Tribune formula requires both. Also, teachers aren’t the mayor’s employees. They work for the public school system.=== When Rich Miller throws reality at the fairytales known affectionately as the Chicago Tribune Editorials. To the post, To riff off Rich’s take, the major problem the Tribune, Rauner, “conservative think tanks” have is this “idea” that the realities of the politics and mere life can be overcome by doing something so unrealistic that norms will be tossed away and capitulation will occur. It’s also advocating throwing tantrums, not unlike the angry person at the end of the bar who “knows”, or someone I remember saying something like “crime can be eliminated in two weeks if I had my way”. Thing is, “that way”, even here talking about this strike and situation, has no realistic lever to get a possibly unrealistic outcome. My belief, and I was taught, is to seek the doable solution. Doing the doable allows for an outcome that might not be all that great for everyone, but not the worst for everyone too. Here again, we read how one side must “save” something or another from a “foe”. Deciding everything has to be a fight will never bring any peace, and it will rarely bring piece of mind. Listening to this editorial board is getting closer and closer to insulting the actual great reporting and reporters that truly make the paper as great as it is, despite its editorial board. Let’s hope the Onion-like advice keeps coming. Then everyone will know the opposite is the best course of action, yet again. - Amalia - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:34 am: WGN TV had an Illinois Policy Institute rep on this am against the strike and the demands. yeah, that source will surely help the dialogue to move to a solution. - City Zen - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:36 am: Hearing from multiple outlets that CTU wants to increase their bankable sick days? Are teachers really burning through their sick days that this is a problem? I’m thankful when I don’t use all my sick days, especially when the alternative is being sick. - Just Me 2 - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:36 am: There is zero incentive for the teachers to return to work. Any days they miss now they make up in June. If I were them I’d strike for weeks and squeeze us measly taxpayers dry. The public employee unions won’t be happy until the taxpayers are on our knees begging for tax relief. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:38 am: === the taxpayers=== Teachers, who are required to live in Chicago, are taxpayers too. Who isn’t a taxpayer? - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:40 am: === I’m thankful when I === Organized labor is about all members not the *I* Your failure here to grasp that explains even more as to why you comment as you do. - City Zen - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:40 am: ==Who isn’t a taxpayer?== I’m still waiting for my paycheck from the government. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:41 am: === I’m still waiting for my paycheck from the government.=== Apply, interview, get an offer, accept the offer. You’re welcome. - lake county democrat - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:43 am: It should be noted the Sun-Times gave pretty much the same advice, asking if Lightfoot had given away too much. That said, I’d prefer she stand firm by keeping the present offer open and adding an olive branch or two. Don’t think it should be substantially sweetened though - she wasn’t elected to be another CTU Santa. - Joe Bidenopolous - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:44 am: ===Any days they miss now they make up in June=== Lightfoot has said they aren’t making up days. If they’re out more than four or five days though, they’ll have to in order to comply with state law - Montrose - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:45 am: “There is zero incentive for the teachers to return to work.” The fact that they are teachers and staff that care deeply about their work and their students is little bit of an incentive. - efudd - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:46 am: Just me 2- You forgot “this is why I’m leaving Illinois” Teachers in Murphysboro when on strike a few weeks ago, the main reason pay. The school district could not retain educators. In the last two years they lost a dozen teachers, quite a bit for a system that size. So, what do you think the ceiling for teacher pay should be? Don’t equivocate, don’t give me how the “taxpayer” can’t afford it, don’t give me how much teachers in other states make. What should the ceiling for educator pay be? - BR91 - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:48 am: @cityzen By not being able to bank the sick days, they are lost, which creates an incentive for people to use them before year’s end. By being able to bank the sick days, teachers are able to use them when they have some health-related issue that requires long term absence. I don’t know about you, but I would rather incentivize teachers being in school every day and actually using sick time when they need it rather than having them feel they will lose it if they don’t use it. - Just Me 2 - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:48 am: Oswego - I totally reject the argument that “teachers are taxpayers too.” It’s ridiculous. The money they get in taxpayers money is exponentially more than they pay. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:50 am: === I totally reject the argument that “teachers are taxpayers too.”=== Then you argue like a child, as facts are something you ignore for your convenience to seem right. - Just Me 2 - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:51 am: efudd - I wish teachers could be paid $1m a year, but us taxpayers don’t have that much money in our wallets to give. Some of us are still paying for the Great Recession, and are behind in our mortgage payments, and can’t afford healthcare, and our retirement funds have been decimated while public employee unions gripe that their raises aren’t big enough. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:54 am: === It’s ridiculous. The money they get in taxpayers money is exponentially more than they pay.=== To continue how ridiculous you sound… … who is going to teach children, how will they get paid, and does that pay go towards goods, services, homes, and are they taxed for those as you are? So, you want teachers either not paid, no public schools, or robots that taxpayers will pay for that won’t pay any taxes to prove a point. Children argue like this. - Cheryl44 - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:54 am: Teachers pay part of their own pay. Think about it, Just Me. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:55 am: ==I totally reject the argument that “teachers are taxpayers too.” == Feel free to do so. Everyone has the right to be ignorant. You’ve just chosen to show that ignorance in public. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:56 am: ==I totally reject the argument that “teachers are taxpayers too.”== I’m sure they’d be glad to not be taxpayers and stop paying all of those taxes they currently pay. Stop arguing like a child. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:56 am: === Some of us are still paying for the Great Recession, and are behind in our mortgage payments, and can’t afford healthcare, and our retirement funds have been decimated=== So… NO teachers’ families, they aren’t… “still paying for the Great Recession, and are behind in our mortgage payments, and can’t afford healthcare, and our retirement funds have been decimated” Where is this Madeupville you speak? - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 9:57 am: == Some of us are still paying for the Great Recession, and are behind in our mortgage payments, and can’t afford healthcare, and our retirement funds have been decimated == And I’m sorry for those people. But again, only children make the arguments that they aren’t doing well or don’t have something so nobody else should either. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:00 am: ==the mayor is free to withdraw those proposals and offer a different package.== Yeah, I’m sure that would work out well. Of course these are the same people who cheered the Governor on during his war with the unions and for the time when we didn’t have a budget. That worked out real well didn’t it Tribune. - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:04 am: What do they even want. The Mayor proposed a huge increase in pay and CPS continues to lose 1000s of students annually. - efudd - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:04 am: Just me 2 First of all, as expected you punked out and didn’t answer the question. Second, my mother in law is a retired elementary teacher and a widow. She also doesn’t collect social security. If you think she is polarized from the economy simply because of her pension, you are quite simply, a fool. Or a troll. Now, answer the question. - Lester Holt’s Mustache - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:04 am: == Some of us are still paying for the Great Recession, and are behind in our mortgage payments, and can’t afford healthcare, and our retirement funds have been decimated while public employee unions gripe that their raises aren’t big enough.== If that’s the case, it sounds like you should be griping to your employer that your raises aren’t big enough. Or maybe you and your co-workers could form a union? You could always take a civil service test, lots of job openings right now with the state - Naperthrill - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:06 am: The offer on the table puts the average teachers party at Six Figures including general and step increases, for 9 months of work. And yes, you can put a market price and judgement on a teachers compensation, and that is extremely over generous for a broke City with underperforming schools. Mayor shouldn’t have come up to 16% raises with compounded step increases, considering the union was going to strike anyways. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:06 am: === What do they even want.=== Google is your friend. Let us know what *you* learn. - Steve - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:06 am: OW You bring up the word tantrum. Most industries don’t allow strikes. If the Chicago teachers think that Lori Lightfoot is being very unreasonable then 1) Convince voters to back a candidate that will give teachers what they want in the next election or 2) Consider going into another industry . No one is forcing anyone to be a Chicago public school teacher. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:08 am: === for 9 months of work=== .., avd yet there’s a teacher shortage and folks aren’t going for that “3 month off” perk. This idea that “they only work 9 months” is the envy part of the discussion, and if it’s such a big deal, go get certified, beca teacher, get those “months off”. There’s a shortage, remember. - Nagidam - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:11 am: As it pertains to sick days I believe the Downstate Pension system (everyone but Chicago) can “Bank” up to two years worth of sick days to count as service time for their pensions. Does CTU not have this same ability? If not that may be the driving force behind this potential ask. - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:13 am: There is no teachers shortage in CPS. Hundreds apply for job openings. CPS needs less employees not more. Enrollment has plummeted over the last 10 years. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:14 am: === Most industries don’t allow strikes.=== So those that do are to be penalized? What does this even mean, lol === If the Chicago teachers think that Lori Lightfoot is being very unreasonable then=== Strike. They have that right. ===1) Convince voters to back a candidate that will give teachers what they want in the next election=== … or strike, as polling indicates voters support CTU/Teachers over pols… consistently. That’s real leverage. ===2) Consider going into another industry .=== There’s a teacher shortage already. You wanna be a teacher to take the place of the folks you’re saying “like it or lump it” The one thing the teachers have in their favor, parents seem to respect and support them. Polling and past strikes indicate this truth. ===No one is forcing anyone to be a Chicago public school teacher.=== So they are exercising their right to strike. You wanna starry denying rights? Hmm. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:15 am: === There is no teachers shortage in CPS.=== You sure? Are you really sure? - City Zen - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:15 am: ==By not being able to bank the sick days, they are lost, which creates an incentive for people to use them before year’s end.== Incentive to be sick? ==By being able to bank the sick days, teachers are able to use them when they have some health-related issue that requires long term absence.== But they can bank sick days today. ==I would rather incentivize teachers being in school every day and actually using sick time when they need it rather than having them feel they will lose it if they don’t use it.== Sick days are for when you’re sick. Why would I want a sick teacher in school when they’re allocated sick days every year? - @misterjayem - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:16 am: “Most industries don’t allow strikes.” Please explain what you think this sentence means. – MrJM - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:18 am: Yes, there are hundreds of qualified applicants for open CPS teaching positions. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:21 am: === Yes, there are hundreds of qualified applicants for open CPS teaching positions.=== Cite please. Oh, this was August 7, 2019; “CPS Teacher Shortage Hits Black and Special Needs Students Hardest” I’ll cite it for you. You’re welcome. https://news.wttw.com/2019/08/07/cps-teacher-shortage-hits-black-and-special-needs-students-hardest - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:24 am: ===Each year, hundreds of Chicago Public Schools are having to make do without teachers and substitutes because of a teacher shortage. Many schools have had open vacancies for a year or more, including those for special education teachers. Education reporter Sarah Karp and her colleague Paula Friedrich found that schools serving low-income and black students were often the hardest hit and were twice as likely to have a teacher vacancy for an entire year. Majority-white schools had no yearlong vacancies. Some students with learning disabilities had no special education teacher for two years and across CPS, some 100 special education positions remained open for an entire year.=== From my link, - Rudiforte - Your turn. - Dotnonymous - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:26 am: Many who criticize Teachers could not teach first grade…for any pay. - Grandson of Man - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:27 am: It seems to be up to labor law and not industries to determine if strikes are legal. Here is some useful info from the NLRB. https://www.nlrb.gov/strikes - Skeptic - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:28 am: “Most industries don’t allow strikes.” Outside of public safety, name one. “I’m still waiting for my paycheck from the government” I’m still waiting for the government to stop throwing me in jail for not paying taxes. - Steve - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:28 am: - @misterjayem - You are aware that most of America’s workforce isn’t unionized? - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:28 am: ==Most industries don’t allow strikes.== Who are these “most industries.” Unless it’s a public safety agency (i.e. police and fire) what industry are workers prohibited from striking. Heck, we just had a major one at General Motors. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:30 am: === You are aware that most of America’s workforce isn’t unionized?=== What does this mean in any context of any point you’re making? - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:31 am: Steve: Stop tring to be cute. When discussing strikes everyone has the understanding that we are talking about workplaces with unions. Places with unions generally have a workforce that can strike. - The Most Anonymous - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:31 am: You’re a day late on this very sound advice. She and her top-shelf team posted a Trib editorial yesterday on her Facebook and led with the sentence: “CPS teachers already out-earn most of their public school colleagues in Illinois…” What a leading argument. - Steve - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:32 am: - Demoralized - Can you tell me who in high tech, banking, retail, and insurance is allowed to go out and strike if they don’t like their wages and benefits? - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:34 am: - Steve - This isn’t a dorm room argument where you think you can sound Kool cause you don’t vote. They can legally strike. It’s their right. That’s it. That’s not a discussion point. - Steve - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:34 am: OW There are plenty of teachers in the Catholic School system in Chicago, you are aware they can’t strike? - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:35 am: Steve: Again. Stop trying to be cure. When discussing strikes we all know we are talking about union shops. Enough already. You look ridiculous. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:35 am: Sorry. Meant “cute” - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:35 am: === plenty of teachers in the Catholic School system=== Are they public school teachers? You have no argument here. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:36 am: ==You have no argument here.== He’s clearly trolling. - Steve - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:39 am: OW Lori Lightfoot isn’t obligated to give them everything they are asking for. I hope Lori doesn’t get angry and move to de-certify the union. - Naperthrill - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:40 am: —This idea that “they only work 9 months” is the envy part of the discussion— Nope. We’re talking about market value, tax dollars and public policy. It’s a copout to ignore that and just state “you’re jealous”. Try to actually argue that Six figure salaries, with great benefits, for 9 months of work, is not overly generous in a broke City with under performing schools - Crazybleedingheart - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:41 am: Love reading suburban hacks telling the Chicago mayor to get tough with the Chicago teachers supported by Chicago parents and Chicago residents. Love it in the Trib, love it on CapFax, love it everywhere. What would we simple city people do without Donny DuPage and Larry LakeCo divulging their most precious management fantasies. Mmmm. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:42 am: === Lori Lightfoot isn’t obligated to give them everything they are asking for.=== They can strike. === I hope Lori doesn’t get angry and move to de-certify the union.=== You burning hot pockets in the dorm microwave again… and is that smoke effecting your thinking? You don’t like the union. Ok. Geez, lol - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:42 am: ==Lori Lightfoot isn’t obligated to give them everything they are asking for.== Who said she was? ==I hope Lori doesn’t get angry and move to de-certify the union.== Oh please. You’ve gone from one nonsense conversation to another. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:42 am: === Nope. We’re talking about market value, tax dollars and public policy.=== You want public policy to be all year school? - Crazybleedingheart - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:44 am: Comment does not appear - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:44 am: === It’s a copout to ignore that and just state “you’re jealous”. Try to actually argue that Six figure salaries, with great benefits, for 9 months of work, is not overly generous in a broke City with under performing schools.=== Push for year round school and merit pay for teachers based on tests. Good luck with that. The industry, overwhelmingly in Illinois, is a school year with multiple weeks off in the summer. You don’t like it. Fix it. - lake county democrat - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:48 am: Every teacher I know works much longer hours than 9-5 (most of them flop into a nap when they get home, then grade homework a few hours later). But this isn’t about rewarding them for that: Lightfoot has given them a fair raise (more than fair according to the Labor-friendly Sun-Times). CTU admits it’s trying to legislate social policy through its bargaining. This is madness and should be, as politely as possible, rejected. - Steve - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:48 am: OW I have no problem with Chicago public school teachers. I think many if not most of them deserve to make more money than suburban teachers because they have a much more difficult job. But, frequent striking might not be the best way to achieve certain goals. I have no problem with them working 9 months or living outside the city or having more preparation time or having more school nurses. I just think Mayor Lightfoot or any Mayor needs a little flexibility given Chicago’s declining enrollment and public pension problem. I have no problem with every Chicago public school teacher making 200K a year provided that the Mayor could have more flexibility in budgeting and consolidating schools if need be. - @misterjayem - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:49 am: “Things are different when things are different” is a tautology not an argument. I can remember when Illinois politics attracted a better class of troll. – MrJM - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:50 am: ==We’re talking about market value,== So you’re saying the teachers aren’t worth what they are paid? So give us a salary amount that you would be satisfied with. ==for 9 months of work== That is, and always has been, a silly argument people attempt to make when talking about teacher compensation. I don’t know of too many teachers who only do work during the school day. They work nights and weekends and sometimes over the summer on things. If you don’t like your lot in life and think it’s a great gig to “only” have to work 9 months of the year then by all means become a teacher. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:51 am: === But, frequent striking=== Define frequent and list the number of times in, say, 25 years, CTU has gone on strike. Thanks. - City Zen - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:52 am: Open house at Chicago’s parochial schools today? Seems like a missed opportunity. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:54 am: === I just think Mayor Lightfoot or any Mayor needs a little flexibility given Chicago’s declining enrollment and public pension problem.=== They closed 50 schools. Rahm has no measurable savings to share when asked. === I have no problem with every Chicago public school teacher making 200K a year provided that the Mayor could have more flexibility in budgeting and consolidating schools if need be.=== Dorm room “200K” to try to first seem reasonably pro teacher, then make that ridiculousness seem like the perfect counter to “help” the Mayor. Just say you’re trolling for attention already, lol - Steve - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:56 am: Today makes twice since 2012 which is too frequent for many parents . - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:57 am: CPS enrollment is down by thousands of students. CPS needs to right size to the current student population. There should a hiring freeze until this is figured out. Any bets on how large the enrollment decline will be for 2019-20 school year? My guess is about 2,000. Those figures should be released soon. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:58 am: === Today makes twice since 2012 which is too frequent for many parents.=== ABC7 Chicago… === Just days before Chicago Public Schools teachers could walk off the job, a new ABC7/Chicago Sun-Times poll shows nearly half of the people surveyed support a strike. The survey found 49% of voters either strongly or somewhat support a walkout, while 38% are opposed. === What else ya got? - predictable - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:59 am: Tribune is anti-union, anti-democrat, anti-pension. I stopped reading that republican tabloid years ago. - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 10:59 am: I bet few posters here even have kids in CPS. This is very disruptive to families. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:01 am: === CPS enrollment is down by thousands of students. CPS needs to right size to the current student population. There should a hiring freeze until this is figured out.=== So you *can’t* find that there’s not a teacher shortage, so you’re trying this? Do I have to cite the WBEZ report on closing schools yet again? Your trolling is tiring. === Any bets=== You know, there’s better ways to try to get attention, LOL - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:01 am: CTU needs to get a grip with the fact that there are less kids in Chicago, which means we need less schools and less teachers. - Skeptic - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:01 am: “There should a hiring freeze until this is figured out.” And if they’re already understaffed, you suggest remaining understaffed until they can figure out if they’re going to be understaffed some time in the future? - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:03 am: Willie, how many kids do you currently have in CPS? How many CPS workers do you know? - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:03 am: === I bet few posters here even have kids in CPS. This is very disruptive to families.=== Trolling for attention isn’t helping. To the thought about that, the 3rd largest school system in America effects more than just parents and kids IN the system; Employers and businesses, for one, are effected. - crazybleedingheart - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:04 am: “CTU admits it’s trying to legislate social policy through its bargaining. This is madness and should be, as politely as possible, rejected.” When was the last time a Lake County school district put 50 kids in a kindergarten classroom? - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:04 am: === how many kids do you currently have in CPS? How many CPS workers do you know?== We deal with facts here, not anecdotal silliness. This ain’t Facebook. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:05 am: ==which means we need less schools and less teachers== Less schools isn’t always necessirly going to translate into less teachers. If you close a school and send those kids to other schools it may create class sizes that are too large and you will need to add additional teachers to the school to which the students transferred. - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:06 am: CPS is maintaining too many schools and all the associated overhead. Consolidate and spread some of the teachers around. Enrollment is down by 50,000 students over the last 10 years. The way things are going it will continue to drop. - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:07 am: Oswego, you have not experience with kids in CPS do you. You don’t know any principals of home office employees do you? - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:09 am: === CPS is maintaining too many schools and all the associated overhead.=== Cite please. According to reports, after the closing of 50 schools, Mayor Emanuel didn’t provide any facts of short or long term saving to CPS. Unlike you, I can cite this. Repeating your “end of the bar, yelling at the TV” silliness doesn’t make any of it true. - crazybleedingheart - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:09 am: ==I bet few posters here even have kids in CPS. This is very disruptive to families.== Great job correctly identifying the pressure point of a teacher strike - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:09 am: Demoralized, the net should be less teachers, administration and staff. It shouldn’t be proportional reductions as you point out. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:10 am: === you have not experience with kids in CPS do you. You don’t know any principals of home office employees do you?=== If i do, it doesn’t matter. Why? We deal with facts here, not anecdotal silliness. This ain’t Facebook. Keep up. - Rudiforte - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:12 am: Oswego, you are smarter than that, right? How many CPS schools have you been in? How many of your kids have attended CPS. 50,000 less students on 10 years and still shrinking. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:14 am: - Rudiforte - This is NOT Facebook. Deal with facts. WBEZ… === Emanuel did not comment on the findings. CPS had said that closing the 50 schools would save $43 million annually and $437 million over time by not having to fix or maintain the shuttered buildings. But the school district has never provided any detailed information on whether those savings were or will be realized.=== - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:15 am: - Rudiforte - “I know” isn’t an argument. Be better or troll someone else. You’re not adding. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:16 am: Rudiforte You’re making an argument that suggests that if you don’t have kids in CPS or know anyone who works in CPS then you shouldn’t comment about it. That’s just silly. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:17 am: ==the net should be less teachers== I didn’t say it wouldn’t be. I was just pointing out that it doesn’t necessarily always translate into less depending on the circumstances. - Anon but Social Knows me - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:43 am: I have yet to work for a company that allows to carry over sick days. You get X per year and that’s that - if you need to take more time off, you go to short term disability and then long term disability. You can also use vacation time during illness events. The difference between sick time and vacation time, is that vacation time has to be tracked as an asset on the books of the entity offering them. In other words, if you have three weeks vacation and don’t take any but quit at the end of the year (to keep it simple) … your employer needs to pay you for 15 days of work-level pay. Because of this, companies have to accrue/bank the funds to do this for every employee. That’s a WHOLE TON of money when there are over 30,000 employees. Now add sick time into that equation and it’s another whole ton of money that sits on the books and cannot be used for anything. It must be banked by law. And to add, not only has no company allowed me to carry over sick time, they certainly have never paid it out. The only time it pays out is when employers use PTO (paid time off) which is a combined pool of vacation, sick and floating holidays. Those do pay out but generally there are less sick days factored in. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 11:54 am: ==not only has no company allowed me to carry over sick time== So? It always goes back to “I don’t get it so neither should you” - Thomas Paine - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:01 pm: ==which means we need less schools and less teachers== Even CPS admits they have a teacher shortage. Even CPS admits that they have a classroom overcrowding problem. These facts are not up for debate. Every school needs a nurse, a librarian, and adequate social worker and psychologists depending on the student population. These facts are not up for debate. CPS struggles to retain teachers because school districts rining the city offer comparible and in many cases better pay, along with much better work conditions, more up-to-date teaching resources, less stress, a lower likelihood of being assaulted, and a lower cost-of-living. These facts are not up for debate. Everything that CTU has put on the table is in CPS’ best long term interest as well. Ultimately, as Rich has opined, quality schools are in the best interests of every property taxpayer, regardless of whether they have kids, as parents and employers will flock to communities with good schools. I dunno whether this strike will last two days, two weeks, two months or even longer. I am pretty sure the tech companies that have decided to call Chicago home dont want to see this strike still going on at Christmas and neither do the retailers. Just as I am sure the CTU has the resolvevto stay out that long and possibly longer, and that a deal done in December or January will cost a lot more than a deal done tomorrow. - Count Floyd - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:12 pm: This is exhibit A as to why Chicago State’s finest shouldn’t be allowed to strike. It’s extortion of the taxpayers, especially those who have their children’s education interrupted this week. Seems to me to be a binary choice: the kids’ education matters or it doesn’t. CPD and CFD can’t strike and yet they can work out fair labor deals. More than fair in CFD’s case. I’m sure a similar process with mediators and all could be put in place to make sure the teacher’s get a fair shake. And if not Sharkey and Chambers can check for openings in Caracas since they covet that system so much. I am a CPS grad. Went to grade school in the 80’s. Had a strike nearly every other year. During the hot summer of ‘85 the strike pushed our school year until the end of June. No a/c in that place. My school day was from 9-2:45. No recess. 15 minutes for lunch. Gym class once a week. It was a cruel schedule. But the teachers could get home in time to meet their kids returning from Catholic school. Which is the real point of all of this. I’m just one lonely Chicago citizen and voter who will never support the CTU and their methods. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:13 pm: === Chicago State’s finest=== Who? Ugh. LOL - dbk - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:13 pm: A rather depressing thread. Comments above notwithstanding, the salary issue is only one of many issues which have provoked this strike action. (Total: 13 separate issues) CTU is asking for more nurses, social workers, counselors, and librarians - the Mayor’s counter-offers on these services is meager and won’t come anywhere near addressing needs. (Librarians btw were cut from proposed budget.) They’re also asking for an expanded number of SCS (Sustainable Community Schools), which have a proven track record in serving distressed districts (from 20 to 75 - LL has rejected this proposal and is providing only 1 year of funding for the existing 20 SCS - a danger signal). And they’re trying to start a conversation - a serious conversation - about affordable housing for their students - figures I’ve seen quoted suggest there are about 20,000 students going homeless in recent academic years. While typically, striking for affordable housing and other so-called “social justice” issues is not allowed, what are teachers to do if no one else is actively working on the issue of chronic student homelessness? And yes, homelessness directly affects classroom performance / teachers. Re: need for “closing schools” etc.: CPS has already massively downsized - where has everyone been the past 6 years? (Note: those closings haven’t worked out well: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2018/05/24/chicago-promised-that-closing-nearly-50-schools-would-help-kids-in-2013-a-new-report-says-it-didnt/) It might help if folks read the union’s homepage, which compares/contrasts CTU’s position on each of the major issues, LL’s stated position while she was candidate LL, and her current position as Mayor LL. If you can’t bear to do that, here’s a feature story in The Nation which situates the strike in the national context of what’s been happening in a good many states over the past year: https://www.thenation.com/article/union-strike-chicago-teachers/ For some reason, I feel myself missing Wordslinger very much right now. - DuPage - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:15 pm: ===A walkout liberates Lightfoot from proposals she already has made but which her employees have rejected. As any strike continues, the mayor is free to withdraw those proposals and offer a different package.=== The suggestion by the tribune to for CPS to withdraw an offer and then offer less would be “failure to bargain in good faith”, an unfair labor practice, and illegal. http://www.washingtonlaborandemploymentblog.com/2013/10/23/perc-examiner-finds-that-employer-engaged-in-regressive-bargaining-of-wages/ - City Zen - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:15 pm: ==CPS enrollment is down by thousands of students.== Then it’s probably in Lightfoot’s best interest to release the 20th day enrollment numbers. What’s the hold up? - Blue Dog Dem - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:20 pm: Heres my advice. Just keep raising property taxes. Dont just stop at the levels to satisfy the teachers strike. Fix your pensions as well. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:22 pm: === may struggle=== It’s not “may”, they do. === Why would we expect people to want to teach there if no one wants to live there?=== So those children don’t deserve teachers? Dunno how compelling an argument that is. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:23 pm: === The CPS homeless figure=== Rich Miller commented on this argument himself the last time it was brought up. Google it - City Zen - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:23 pm: ==CPS may struggle to find teachers to work in North Lawndale or Englewood schools, but it’s not because there aren’t enough teachers. It’s because very few want to work in those areas.== So there should be separate salary schedules for tough areas? Want to teach in Lincoln Park? Fine, but you’re making $10,000 less than your Englewood and North Lawndale equivalents. Many ways to solve this issue without spending one extra dime. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:26 pm: === === The CPS homeless figure=== Rich Miller commented on this argument himself the last time it was brought up. Google it=== Ironically enough, it was with - Rudiforte -, same argument too Please choose a name. Thanks. - Mr. Smith - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:32 pm: I just LOVE the comments about teachers working for 9 months out of the year. It shows the utter ignorance of peole who have never taught a day in their lives, and who see teachers as little more than babysitters. Most of the K-12 teachers I know don’t end their work day when they leave the building. Whether they are grading papers, planning assignments, re-reading IEPs, or attending school events as they are often mandated to do, it is not uncommon for the average teacher to put in 1-2 hours a night (or more, for some teachers) doing the things they need to do to be ready for the next day. So while thir contract may be for 9 onths, they end up putting in enough hours for 12 months worth of work in that time. I also love the “6-figure teachers salaries” bit. Yes, teachers who have been around a while are going to have higher salaries - it’s not rocket science, it happens in nearly every work setting, inionized or not. Wouldn’t you expect someone with 20 years experience to make more than someone right out of school? https://www.ctulocal1.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/CTU_Contract_2015-2019.pdf - Blue Dog Dem - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:37 pm: We are at an uniquely opportunistic time in history. Democratic governor. Veto proof majorities in both chambers. Great Trump economy. Democrats. You own. Fix it. Aint nothing stopping you - nadia - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:42 pm: DuPage at 12:15 pm pretty well sums up the Tribs knowledge about bargaining between parties to a collective bargaining agreement. - dbk - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 12:46 pm: Anonymous @12:21 –The CPS homeless figure is not at all accurate. Read that report. There might 2000 homeless kids in CPS which is still too high, but the 20,000 number is a fabrication.– Here’s the summary released by the Law Project at the Chicago Coalition for the Homeless (2017-2018 end-of-academic-year figures; homelessness is increasing rather than decreasing in all major metropolitan U.S. centers). Cf. https://www.chicagohomeless.org/year-end-data-on-homeless-enrollment-in-chicago-and-illinois-schools-4-increase-statewide/ Figure cited was 17,894 I think that’s probably fairly close; if you look at the comparable figures for NYC (same period, 2017-2018), the number is 44,010. Chicago’s student population is just under 400,000; NYC’s is 1.1 million. Cf. https://research.steinhardt.nyu.edu/site/research_alliance/2019/09/06/where-are-nyc-schools-serving-the-highest-concentrations-of-homeless-students/ YMMV, but the percentages are close and the demographics are comparable. - stryke - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:09 pm: You guys have been busy today. I’m happy to see someone finally mentioned that the Trib’s suggestion for regressive bargaining is against the law. History has shown us that when you prevent teachers from having an equal voice at the bargaining table, they rightly push back. Illinois saw 10-20 teacher strikes a year back when it was illegal to strike. The collective bargaining law greatly reduced the number of strikes and brought labor peace because both sides finally had an equal voice. One root cause of this strike is the fact that CPS is the only school district in the state that has restrictions on what can be bargained. John Kennedy, a teacher from Kankakee who spent time in jail for an illegal strike, famously said, “We were expected to teach Democracy, but we weren’t allowed to participate in it.” - Skeptic - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:13 pm: “the net should be less teacher” Um, that should be “fewer.” - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:16 pm: === The definition of homeless they are using isn’t recognized by the Federal government. That organization has an agenda. In COs only about 10% of that number cited are homeless=== Tell that to those sleeping on the couch of friends and family Choose a name, please. - Looking down the Road - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:18 pm: Blue dog. You got it. Just keep raising taxes. No possible downside…. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:20 pm: === It’s extortion of the taxpayers, especially those who have their children’s education interrupted this week.=== Explain how a strike works. Thanks. ===Seems to me to be a binary choice: the kids’ education matters or it doesn’t.=== It’s not. The union mission is to be great teachers. The union goal is to have the best contract to be great teachers. Capiche? - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:21 pm: ==only about 10% of that number cited are homeless== Only? Even if you are right I don’t think “only” is the right way to talk about this. One homeless kid is too many. - Doug Schenkelberg - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:24 pm: “You cited the same source for both CPS and NPS. The definition of homeless they are using isn’t recognized by the Federal government. That organization has an agenda. In COs only about 10% of that number cited are homeless.” It is recognized by the federal government. Chicago Public Schools data states 16,450 students experienced homelessness in the last school year. This is a conservative number because homelessness is self reported, and many students and their families are embarrassed to identify as homeless. CPS uses the Department of Education definition of homelessness, which more accurately reflects the full scoped of homelessness. The Department of Housing and Urban Development uses a much narrower definition, which ends up excluding people experiencing homelessness while doubled-up/couch surfing. What this discrepancy means is that the students experiencing homelessness through couch surfing have no access to HUD funded programs that deal with homelessness. For this reason, and many others, it is important for city to step up and provide housing options for homeless students, and it is a very important issue to raise in the context of educating Chicago’s kids. - Blue Dog Dem - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:30 pm: The fact that there are that many homeless children in CPS is a clear failure of the Chicago political ruling class and the residents of Chicago. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:37 pm: ==The fact that there are that many homeless children in CPS is a clear failure of the Chicago political ruling class and the residents of Chicago.== You have an uncanny ability to turn the complicated into a childishly simple analysis. Any other brilliant bits of wisdom you would like to impart on the rest of us? - Responsa - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:37 pm: Days when teachers go on strike are sad days for many people. This thread does nothing to make me less sad. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:38 pm: ==Why would the government provide assistance for people like that?== Are you serious? Unbelievable. Shouldn’t you be on your porch yelling at kids to get off of your lawn? - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:39 pm: - Anonymous - - Rudiforte - made the same argument. Here’s what - Rich Miller told you… oh, I mean - Rudiforte - === - Rich Miller - Thursday, Oct 10, 19 @ 12:14 pm ===Again, keep up. Living with a relative is not homeless=== People who wind up on the streets tend to bounce around at first from relatives to friends and then they run out of places to go. And living on a friend’s sofa is, in fact, homelessness.=== - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:40 pm: === Self reported is extremely flawed. CPS schools are notorious for fudging the numbers on homelessness and low income.=== Cite please, “ Rudiforte” - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:43 pm: Anonymous: First, get a name. Second, you’re arguing awfully hard to suggest that homelessness isn’t a problem. That just sad. - Blue Dog Dem - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:44 pm: Demorilized. I try to simplify things for you. The answer to most of Chicagos problems is lack of revenue. Chicago needs to raise revenue. See how simple the solution is? Now if you dont want to raise revenue you have to cut spending. Simple Simon. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:45 pm: OW They seem to believe having a roof over your head doesn’t count as being homeless. It shows an incredbile lack of intelligence on the subject. - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:46 pm: Can’t go much beyond the See Dick and Jane worldview can you? Homelessness is not a simple solution no matter how much your simple minded brain tries to make it. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 1:48 pm: === They seem to believe having a roof over your head doesn’t count as being homeless. It shows an incredbile lack of intelligence on the subject.=== It appears “Rudiforte” and this “Anonymous” are sharing the same brain so there’s that too, lol - Demoralized - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 2:03 pm: ==See how simple the solution is?== It’s nice that you think homelessness is a problem with simple solutions. If that makes you feel better then I’m glad for you. - Amalia - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 2:07 pm: OW, you are doing a great job of discussing the issue. I don’t agree with some of your points, but you are serious, and also fun. Wordslinger is surely smiling. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 2:12 pm: - Amalia - You’re very kind here, too kind, actually. It’s been tough, only speaking for me, without - Wordslinger - I’d like to think we’re all trying to live up to someone that I know can’t ever match but hopefully might get a smile. Sincerely, that was very nice. Humbled. If anything, I’d hope this Post and the comments are - Wordslinger - quality discussions. Be well. - Drake Mallard - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 2:22 pm: Does anyone else get the feeling Dennis Sharky is including demands for more affordable housing and other social issues as a path for him to seek elected political office? - Occam - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 2:45 pm: With respect to the homeless students issue, it is covered under 105 ILCS 45/1-17 and 1-18. Basically, it says a school district MAY provide financial assistance for a student in various different forms (eg. rent/mortgage payments, unpaid bills, etc.), but does not REQUIRE districts to enter into any housing assistance plans. One might try to estimate the annual costs of a housing assistance plan for an estimated 20,000 students if the district was forced to include this requirement in a new teacher’s union contract. If one were to use an estimate of $5,000/student, the annual cost would hit $100 million per year. That seems like an awfully big hit to the CPS budget. - Former Candidate on the Ballot - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 2:56 pm: To Drake Mallard - That might be a collateral outcome, but not the goal. This is one of the few tangible ways to actually implement these social changes when your current elected officials only talk about it. - Honeybear - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 3:03 pm: “Why would the government provide assistance for people like that?” As a caseworker I can tell you that we totally do. Homelessness is not as simple as you make it out to be. We try to get a stable address if we can but when we’re determining eligibility we give those folks the benefit of the doubt and get them a link card in office. This way they are getting SNAP in an expedited manner. We also have many many resources like 211, a hotline run by the united way to get them what they need to stabilize. Look, here’s a way you can look at it. People caught in a cycle of poverty are more likely to need emergency assistance and draw more from our local support systems than if we get them stabilized as quickly as we can. If you ignore or delay on a poverty related problem its gonna get a heck of a lot worse. Our states Family Community Resource Centers FCRC are staffed by highly trained professionals who are problem solvers and life stabilizers. It’s efficient and it’s economical. We save so much by jumping on poverty issues as quick as possible. Support that. It’s your state working smart - ChiSox - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 4:13 pm: Union mission is to be great teachers?? I’m sure that’s the reason they didn’t cooperate with hickey re the study of sexual violence at school…..ie I never got that email. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 4:31 pm: === Union mission is to be great teachers?=== - ChiSox - Never confuse defining standards and meeting those standards defined. - NeverPoliticalyCorrect - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 4:50 pm: To Oswego Willy, they are the mayors employees in the sense that the mayor appoints the school board. Also the Trib has got it right. This union has among the highest salaries in the state and the nation. Their request is unreasonable for a system in fiscal freefall, even with state money. CTU is also in denial with regard to how many schools are needed. CPS could help the fiscal situation by rightsizing their schools. But no, CTU wants to bargain social service needs of things outside the control of the school system. If they mean it they’re crazy, if they don’t it’s a bargaining chip and a lousy one. Lucky for CTU they live in a union town that has lost it’s mind and continues to support Public Employees in the lifestyle they have grown accustomed to. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 4:51 pm: === in the sense=== No, this is nonsense. - Oswego Willy - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 4:54 pm: === This union has among the highest salaries in the state and the nation.=== Cite please. A Tribune Editorial isn’t a cite in this instance. === CTU is also in denial with regard to how many schools are needed. CPS could help the fiscal situation by rightsizing their schools.=== WBEZ… === Emanuel did not comment on the findings. CPS had said that closing the 50 schools would save $43 million annually and $437 million over time by not having to fix or maintain the shuttered buildings. But the school district has never provided any detailed information on whether those savings were or will be realized.=== Show first that closing 50 schools worked. === Lucky for CTU they live in a union town that has lost it’s mind and continues to support Public Employees in the lifestyle they have grown accustomed to.=== Your angst is noted. - ajjacksson - Thursday, Oct 17, 19 @ 8:13 pm: Wait….did somebody just say that I don’t have to pay taxes anymore? Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.