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* The setup…
Schools could shave a day off the school week to try to save money under legislation the Illinois House approved Monday.
The plan that passed 81-21 requires students still be taught the same number of total hours in a year, but would allow it over four days rather than five. The decision to cut a day would rest with the locally elected school boards, though the Illinois State Board of Education would maintain some oversight authority.
Local boards would be required to have public hearings on reducing the school week. State Rep. Bill Black, a Danville Republican and the plan’s sponsor, said 19 states already allow for reduced school weeks. […]
Black brought the proposal to Springfield at the behest of a small, rural downstate district trying to save transportation and utility costs. He said the state is months behind in reimbursing the school for transportation costs, local fuel providers can’t afford to carry the school much longer and officials are running out of options.
And…
Though the bill passed 81-21, there was considerable opposition from some Chicago Democrats who questioned whether parents would be able to care for their children on the new off day.
* The Question: Support or oppose? Explain.
posted by Rich Miller
Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:24 am
Sorry, comments are closed at this time.
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Well… I guess you save on maintenance and operating costs of the building. But you don’t save any salary.
Sooooo…. Three day weekend! Wooohooo!
Comment by George Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:25 am
The next thing they will be asking for is state or federal money to provide a stipend for childcare for families- no thanks. This plan will just spread the debt.
Comment by Shelby Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:28 am
I can’t think of a better way to get families with two working parent to SCREAM for a tax increase.
Smart move.
Comment by Johnny USA Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:29 am
This should do wonders for Catholic school enrollment - did Cardinal George put them up to this?
Comment by Joe Dokes Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:34 am
This bill makes a great deal of sense for geographically large but population small school districts where transportation is a much larger percentage of school district expenses. If the logic about childcare is true, then everyone would be pursuing year round schools to save even more money for families. Schools should be allowed to serve the children in the way that does the best for the most.
Comment by bourbonrich Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:37 am
Some pedagogues would object since children learn best when not instructed for long hours during the day along w/breaks that allow for burning off some energy from sitting around. Some schools have eliminated the recess period which doesn’t help with antsy boys who just gotta get up and go. This idea could also have impact on extracuriccular activities as well. THe arguement can be made that the kids should just get the 3 Rs but as some get older they need the expanded programs to keep them focused.
I am not convinced this would save much money anyway. A few bucks on heating, one day of busing. How much does it really save? Sounds like - “well, we gotta do somehing”. Is it a ruse to cause people to howl about education taxes? Got a pretty big vote - even some GOP reps signed on, it looks like.
Comment by dupage dan Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:39 am
I’d be more supportive if it also allowed school districts the flexibility to move to year-long schools.
Frankly, if more school districts did more to make their buildings and their vehicle fleet more energy efficient, we’d all benefit.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:41 am
How about the GA addresses balancing the budget and don’t worry about diversionary tactics, look at the real problem. I’m surprised thousands of teachers/administrators aren’t descending on Springfield already.
Comment by Jim Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:42 am
Completely support— As long as the total hours remain the same and the four day week remains a “may”, not a “must”. This is a perfect example of how the needs and solutions for smaller downstate schools can be completely different from larger city schools. Many downstate districts have consolidated over time and the buses required to get far flung students and staff to remote schools every day creates significant schoolboard expense, and also extra trips for teachers and parents. Trips which are not financially or ecologically friendly.
Flexibility is good. As long as the local boards and local public hearings have control of the deciding, this is a very worthwhile idea.
Comment by Responsa Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:44 am
Not unless well-done research finds that the effect on educational outcomes are at least neutral.
After a three day break, wouldn’t many students need extra time to get back into the learning routine. In school, I always lost ground during long semester breaks, but even three-day breaks might have a negative effect.
Since this would be up to local school boards, I suppose exceptional situations could be handled locally, but I suspect most school boards would turn it down if a majority of parents protested.
Comment by cassandra Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:48 am
Frankly, if more school districts did more to make their buildings and their vehicle fleet more energy efficient, we’d all benefit.
If more kids were traditionally home-schooled or participated in organized distance learning at home, a ton of energy for buildings and transportation would be saved. The telecommuting revolution will devolve to primary and secondary education at some point, as it has in post-secondary education. The cost efficiencies and expansion of opportunities for specialization are too great to ignore.
Of course, there are social implications, but so are there with telecommuting in private and public employment and post-secondary education.
Comment by Six Degrees of Separation Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 11:57 am
It’s too many hours in one day for little kids.
Comment by fisher Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:04 pm
==I can’t think of a better way to get families with two working parent to SCREAM for a tax increase==
And single-parent homes.
Imagine a parent taking a 20% pay cut, or having to choose between their job and their kid.
I’d like to see more info on how the other 19 states do it.
Comment by The Doc Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:08 pm
Absolutely a terrible idea. Too many complications and too great a risk for an already failing educational system.
Comment by downstate hack Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:12 pm
Add an hour to the start and an hour to the end and you get another hour of sleepy kids at the start and a wasted hour at the end after kids have had enough.
Outcomes? In too many districts, mediocre is good enough, so who cares?
So, yeah, measure your capabilities in diesel fuel costs. Skewed reasoning to support this nonsense.
More signs that we are entering into the age of scarcity and that our children will not have the standard of living that many of us have experienced.
Comment by vole Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:12 pm
The defacto situation with school is that most parents count on it as a day time babysitter while they work. If you take one day off of school, those parents will now need to find some kind of care or supervision for their kids one day a week. In essence you’re shifting some of the work time and expense to the parents. What options will they have? Likely, since they are already set up for it, the school will turn around and offer to watch the kids in a day camp like program for the one day a week, and use this as a profit center.
I like the concept of year-round schooling, if it opens up some time in the curriculum to bring back arts education, more electives, give less-able students more tutoring, and bring back more phys ed to keep the kids from being fatties. But not if the only reason for it is as an accounting trick to balance the books.
Comment by Gregor Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:12 pm
oppose. one entire day for which the parents must now
get childcare. totally unacceptable. what should happen
is that the school day is LONGER. more class time, available
after school activities. coordinate the school day with a work
day.
Comment by Amalia Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:17 pm
add another meal as they will be hungry. Add nap time too. Will day care providers break even?
Comment by Wumpus Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:17 pm
this pits teachers’ unions who want to avoid salary cuts against parents. And, how will this effect after-school athletics? The unions are going to find out that this will drive a big wedge between themselves and many, many voters who have, heretofore, supported their demands because they thought it would help enhance the quality of education for their children. Single parents and working moms will have to scramble.
Comment by Cousin Ralph Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:19 pm
CR, this was supported by a local school administrator, I believe. Try to stick to the question, please.
Comment by Rich Miller Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:21 pm
While four days a week isn’t ideal, it’s a local district choice. The CPS won’t move to it for the very reason there is an understanding the kids don’t have anywhere to be if there isn’t a school building open.
–The telecommuting revolution will devolve to primary and secondary education at some point, as it has in post-secondary education.
This kind of glibertarian technosilliness doesn’t seem to understand how kids learn which is in groups. Frankly, the ‘telecommuting revolution’ is pretty much a joke in higher education and would fail even more at the level where children need interaction with children and teachers to learn effectively. That is reduced as people become adults, but it never goes away.
Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:23 pm
Heck considering how often we have teacher institute days and school improvement days we are practically on a 4 day week now…
In April there are two early dismissal days and one day of no school.
Comment by OneMan Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:24 pm
“The brain can only absorb what the butt can endure.” Longer days do not translate into more learning.
Comment by Mr. Ethics Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:29 pm
I support anything that allows local school boards the autonomy to decide what is best for their district.
Comment by Vote Quimby! Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:34 pm
Oppose
This maybe the dumbest idea ever! So you want to give the kids in Chicago an extra day to get in trouble or shot? Wow we really have some brilliant legislatures.
Hey Speaker grow up and increase a targeted tax for education and stop playing with the lives of our kids!!!!
Comment by Change is on the way Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:40 pm
As a non-parent who might one day be — what’s harder — figuring out a way for your kid to be looked after on that 5th weekday, or figuring out how to have your kid looked after for 2 hours every afternoon before you get home?
I don’t have the answer. But I don’t think it’s a slam dunk either way.
Comment by irving & ashland Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:42 pm
Six Degrees, Some of your idea sounds OK, but homeschooling requires some pretty dedicated parents who are well educated and unusually techno savvy to pull it off well. Many parents were not thrilled with school when they were there. And you will rely on them to improve the experience? If I was 8 years old, school work on a computer is fun for awhile but the pull to get back to a game would be very strong. Even now, I hate video conferencing. Doing it at home and I just mentally drift away to something interesting.
I get far more info from talking to other people in the room than actually listening to the speaker who is often pretty boring.
Overall moving to 4 days does not change the total dollars (lights/utilities, salary/hourly all basically stay the same. 40 hours in 5 days is still 40 hours of cost in 4 days.) Not to mention any after school activities get very pressed for time. The sports or band practice that now ends at 5:00 later ends at 6:00-6:30 in a 4 day system. Tough to see it working for long.
Comment by zatoichi Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:44 pm
I’d also point out that no school district is going to implement this if most of its parents are ardently opposed. If some district tries it, we can also see how it works. I can’t see the point in criticizing the legislature for allowing a district or two to experiment.
Comment by irving & ashland Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:46 pm
Support-
This will madden parents, and cause them to question the current status quo and change things.
School districts won’t save that much money with this plan anyway. Salaries, capital costs, and most operating costs will all stay the same.
Comment by Peoria Joe Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:46 pm
Yellow Dog - school districts already have the ability to adopt a full-year calendar play - 105 ILCS 5/10-19.1.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:47 pm
zatoichi,
>moving to 4 days does not change .. utilities)
There is actually a big difference between having the heat on for 10 hours on 4 days and 8 hours on 5 days. There’s no question a northern IL district can save a lot in utilities this way. The incentives may be different the further south you get.
And of course you’ve left out the transportation cost, which others say is the prime motivation.
Comment by irving & ashland Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:49 pm
Why does the state need to completely govern every aspect of local schools again? I believe we have these elected officials called “school board members” who can weigh these decisions for what’s best for their local community.
Comment by John Bambenek Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 12:56 pm
My kid gets on the school bus at 7:15 am, and gets home at 3:45 pm. They are proposing to add two more hours to that day for a six year old? No thanks.
Comment by Old Shepherd Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:02 pm
Hey Ralph, the unions opposed the bill because it’s not good for kids. Go back to your Rush Limbaugh.
Comment by dc Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:06 pm
on the fence on this. I question that it will save any money. Most schools run some kind of before/after school program to match school days up to work days. Put this in place and you would have to run those programs on the “closed” days or run into all kinds of issue with kids lef home alone and other social problems of letting kids wander about unsupervised. Put in these programs on the day off and it seems you havent saved any money at all.
Unrelated but similiar, we need to improve education anyway, perhaps kids should be in school longer taking classes veryday 5 days a week. Cloe that education gap with contries which already do longer class days. thats a lot of extra learning
Comment by Ghost Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:08 pm
If the school districts cant afford to bus kids anymore then have the parents drop off their kids or pay a bus fee. Subsidize lower income kids with the savings.
Comment by Reality is Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:08 pm
You do what you have to do. Four day school weeks are unfortunate but so be it. Maybe this will get the politicians down in Springfield that have been handing out “pork for political persuasion” over the past decade to feel “just a little bit guilty” for the mess that Illinois and it’s education system is in.
Comment by Beowulf Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:10 pm
I applaud the effort. You have to get out of the box when you are in the hole this much. Locals can decide. I think we have to get away from somebody in Chicago telling everyone else what to do.
It does raise logistical problems for parents. But kids go to school for a 7 hr day. After lunch that is 6 hours. Take away extra breaks and recess and you are down to 4 -5 extra hours over 4 days to not lose “seat time” about 35-35 minutes in the morning and afternoon and you don’t have lost seat time.
In the end somebody is trying to find solutions and leaving the ultimate say at the local level. I say good work.
Comment by the Patriot Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:11 pm
Oppose. This is now an increased burden on parents to pay for and find child care. This might leave a lot of kids at home unattended.
This will also cause layoffs for bus drivers, lunch workers, student aides…..and so on. Now hourly people working less hours means less money they have to spend, and less tax revenue.
Comment by Third Generation Chicago Native Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:27 pm
While I applaud the creativity of this bill, it just avoids the real issue of the State addressing its structural deficit. The GA should pass spending cuts, taxes increases or a mixture of both so that the budget is balanced and school districts know how much state money they will have. Putting this off until after November’s election is a scandal that both parties have to take responsibility for.
Comment by LouisXIV Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:27 pm
Support. This idea will be used by very small school populations with very large geographic areas. My home high school covered over 120 square miles and had only 200 students. The cost of busing is very real for this type of district. I don’t think its intended (or will be utilized by) Chicago schools.
Comment by lincolnlover Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:30 pm
I don’t necessarily support 4 day weeks for all schools. But, it is a good idea to give school districts the option if they can work it out with parents. There is the one big drawback that virtually everyone who opposes this has brought up; an extra day off during the week where a parent would be working. That is a huge issue, but it comes down to working the situation out with the parents. And, in smaller school districts, it is much more likely that could happen.
100% Support
Comment by Heartless Libertarian Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:44 pm
=== If more kids were traditionally home-schooled or participated in organized distance learning at home, a ton of energy for buildings and transportation would be saved. ===
@Six Degrees -
Data on results of homeschooling is mixed at best.
High numbers of parents supposedly home “schooling” their kids have no college degree, so their qualifications as teachers is questionable.
Furthermore, there’s significant evidence that many parents homeschool their kids not so that they’ll get a better education, but so that they won’t be taught evolution, that its okay to be gay, and how not to get pregnant or get AIDS.
A smaller but significant population homeschools their children because they object to school desegregation.
Investigators tell me another major reason that folks homeschool their children is to conceal abuse ~ teachers and school administrators are mandated reporters.
That said, there are great homeschooling curricula out there, and many parents are more than up to the task and for the right reasons.
Distance learning has its own issues…primarily, in order to be well-run, it actually requires a higher teacher-to-student level than a traditional classroom.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:45 pm
I’d support a 1.5% increase in my taxes if they would extend it to 6 days, like many of our comeptitors in the global economy.
Comment by Vibes Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:45 pm
Those school districts that cover a large area w/larger fuel costs for buses also see long travel times for some of those kids. My sister lives in a rural area in WI and if her kids were the first picked up and the last dropped off (it happened for grade school) they were on the bus at 6 am and came home at 5 pm. They had to sit on that bus for nearly 2 hours each way.
Too much time for youngins. This doesn’t make sense.
BTW - I have family members who home schooled. There was always an argument about so called socialization problems. With some kids being tormented by their peers and schools having a hard time policing the bullys, what kind of socialization is happening here? Lord of the Flies? My nieces and nephews were involved in scouting, church groups and could link up with some of the after school sports programs as well. They have turned out to be well rounded adults scoring high in academic testing. Works better than some might think.
Comment by dupage dan Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:48 pm
I read recently that the Chicago public schools are in class 45mins less than the national avg per day and attend school 10 days less a year than the national avg. over K-12 this means CPS kids attend class over one year less than the national avg. These kids are set up to fail for the rest of their lives so what needs to be fixed is the below avg length of school day and year.
Comment by fed up Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:58 pm
If mom and dad work five days, it would create a stimulus package for day care providers.
And a huge new fee imposed on working families.
Comment by Joe from Joliet Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 1:59 pm
I second vole’s comment and agree wholeheartedly. Well-said.
Comment by Jake from Elwood Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 2:30 pm
I think I oppose this plan. The plan raises many questions that I wonder if the Legislators even considered.
Many school Districts have their own buses. Those buses are used to transport the High School kids and the elementary school kids. They schedule the school days so the elementary school starts sooner then the High School. That way the buses do the High school routes, then the elementary school routes. The afternoon let out times are staggered also. Having four days will mean one of those groups is going to be leaving very early in the morning and getting home late in the afternoon. In the winter the buses might be out on the roads before the plows are out on the rural roads. Or the district are going to have to buy more buses and hire more drivers.
Also, it is a fact that parents count on the kids being in school so they both can work. Parents do not like snow days because they have to scramble to get the kids someplace to go because the parents work during the day. With four day weeks parents are going to have to find somewhere for their children to go on the fifth day or they are going to have to cut back on their hours so they can be home. This is an additional cost on the parents.
In some instances the lunch kids get at school is the only real meal they get during the day. Now there will be one less day of nutrition for those kids.
Comment by irish Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 3:28 pm
When did our schools become little more than a safe source for childcare?
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 3:30 pm
It been done for more than a few years in other school districts without negative consequences derailing it.
Go with it.
Comment by VanillaMan Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 3:32 pm
Support the bill.
Another tool the local Boards can use to improve the education system. They are not required to, but may spend less transporting kids to school.
Has anyone seen what this free transportation costs? Our school buses run up more than 40K miles each year. If it works to the benefit of the kids we can save money, reduce a bit of air pollution and cut down on some local traffic cingestion.
Comment by plutocrat03 Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 3:46 pm
Irish, many districts have their own buses they were promised reimbursement for by the state which is running 6 to 9 months behind. That is almost a full school year for some districts to advance hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars. If you can cut the miles by 20% per year that means you get more years out of the bus, which means less cost.
Yes, it will hurt parents, but let me let you in on a little known secret, we are in a major budget hole, and the solutions are going to hurt.
I think Rich hit this on the head a week or two ago. We all want the the problem fixed as long as it doesn’t involve cutting anything I want.
Comment by the Patriot Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 4:25 pm
How about extending the school week, with more fun activities to break up the day, you know, something with exercise in it.
We already have enough problems with our kids learning because of the difficulties in the family unit. Putting kids on the streets an extra day will create more social issues. We are trying to resolve an incompetancy problem with money management by doing less for kids, thereby doing less for ourselves.
The suggestion that we can get in the same amount of education in a shorter span of time would appear to be put forth by somebody smoking too much dope. I don’t buy it.
Trying to balance our checkbook on the backs of schoolkids is just plain dumb.
Comment by Justice Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 5:19 pm
slightly oppose - I like that locals get to decide what’s best and it is practical. but a long school day combined with a longer weekend may make it tough for kids’ attention spans to really learn and retain.
Comment by Robert Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 6:21 pm
Justice - I guarantee that Rep. Black isn’t smoking anything, but thanks for the chuckle.
To the question - it’s a fine idea as long as local boards and administrators think through the benefits and consequences for their local community and as long as parents participate in the process. Just like any other issue under a local district’s purview.
It’s time to start thinking differently about the way in which we educate kids. As a member of the original Nintendo generation, it’s clear to see how kids going through the system today process information and use technology differently. Technology is here. Embrace it. Use it as a way to keep kids engaged and curious. The discussions about providing new opportunities and resources for this generation and those on the way should not begin and end with a 4-day school week.
Comment by Come on, now Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 6:26 pm
This is an idea that is CLEARLY not beneficial to our children, our education system, and the country as a whole, especially since Illinois academic performance is average when compared to other states in the US…. AND the US ranks below average (even below some THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES)when it comes to academic performance in reading, math, and science. Check the research…. We are growing generations that barely can compete today, and eventually will not be able to compete in the global market because of LACK OF EDUCATION. Instead we should be EXTENDING the school day and preparing our childeren and COUNTRY for the future — or we risk becoming servants to other countries.
Comment by Mrs. Angelmog Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 6:46 pm
Oppose - having experienced being a working single-parent, no school meant more money out of my pocket. $75 a day for two kids, not including the before and after school program payment for the other 4 days as I worked out-of-town. Longer school days would also have to include snacks. It would be hard for the little kids to sit that long and keep their attention span.
Comment by Can't Say My Nickname Tuesday, Mar 23, 10 @ 7:42 pm
Oppose - Teacher unions will not go for this at least in our district. Who benefits from this solution? - State solving the state problems of financing education by “allowing” school districts to decide to go to a 4 day week to “save” money. They are wasting time talking about a 4 day school week, let’s talk about a better commitment to fund education by finding more equitable ways to bring in money to increase the percentage that goes to funding. Our legislators aren’t doing their homework.
Comment by Island Girl Wednesday, Mar 24, 10 @ 8:23 am