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* The AP goes into detail about Mark Kirk’s service record and clearly shows that he didn’t have to exaggerate, lie, what-have-you…
Since launching his campaign, Kirk has come under sharp criticism for exaggerating his military accomplishments, repeatedly choosing to emphasize the few “Top Gun” moments in a 21-year Reserve career that has been spent almost entirely focused on office work.
But an Associated Press review of Navy personnel documents — as well as interviews with former colleagues, commanders and experts — shows Kirk has been an exceptional officer entrusted with vital, sensitive duties. His work was important but not glamorous.
If Kirk had limited his statements to his actual military record, he would not have lacked for achievements to brag about.
During the Kosovo bombing campaign, for instance, Kirk stayed behind at a base in Italy to study data and prepare briefings while the pilots of his unit, known as the “Star Warriors,” were in the air.
But instead of describing his actual duties when talking to voters, Kirk has talked about encountering anti-aircraft fire over Kosovo on what he called his “first mission.” But it was his only flight, and he was just an observer.
It seems to me that Kirk always needs to be the smartest and bravest person in the room. We all have friends with that annoying habit of trying to top every story that everybody tells. Kirk’s problem is he ventures into taboo territory with his false braggadocia about military exploits that never existed. He’s a Commander McBragg for our times…
* And as I’ve written before, once you get the reputation for being dishonest, you’ll have an extremely difficult time overcoming it. From the Sun-Times…
Just when you thought Mark Kirk couldn’t be more disingenuous.
The Republican Senate candidate who tried to pass off a series of exaggerations in his military record as honest errors now is smearing his Democratic opponent, Alexi Giannoulias, with a blatantly misleading TV ad that links him to the Gulf oil spill.
Usually, that ad would’ve been debunked and people would’ve moved on. Considering the press coverage Giannoulias was getting before Kirk’s problems were exposed, the ad might’ve even been ignored. Instead, it now becomes a character issue for Kirk…
And what do we call a candidate who thinks the voters are too stupid to see the truth for what it is?
Insulting.
posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:13 am
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Insulting…yes, quite
Comment by Wumpus Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:16 am
Rich, in my Ed Marshall moment…..aren’t you beating this Kirk drum to death? He took his lumps for exaggerating…Alexi is still hiding after his “tax holiday”….can’t you go after him for a bit? And btw….how much did he raise last quarter?
Comment by raising kane Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:20 am
The funny thing is, the folks you meet or know who have seen real combat are very reticent talking about it to people they know, much less strangers.
My father’s WWII contemporaries spoke very little about the war to anyone who hadn’t experienced it firsthand. Same with Vietnam vets you meet over the years. If you weren’t there, you’re not part of the conversation.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:23 am
Rich another day another attack on Kirk your getting predictable. Boy you let Alexis tax issue go pretty quick. Oh while commenting on national media storys. CNN Money today tweeted a story about Illinois being Greece of the USA. I know, I know the NY Times, Bloomberg and CNN are all wrong it’s going to be ok if we just keep ignoring it.
Comment by Fed up Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:24 am
- Alexi is still hiding after his “tax holiday”….can’t you go after him for a bit? -
Is your memory so poor that you can’t remember 2 days ago?
Comment by Small Town Liberal Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:26 am
Rich - the cartoon of Commander McBragg brought back some great memories. I agree with the others that you seem to be beating this drum a little long.
Comment by Anon 7 Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:29 am
STL…Compare that little post to the days of kirk bashing. Not even close.
Comment by raising kane Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:30 am
Kirk will never be allowed to forget his embellishments, unlike Hillary “Under Fire in Bosnia” Clinton and Joe “Whenever I Open My Mouth” Biden.
Rich always counsels that we move along. Agreed, Rich.
Comment by Cincinnatus Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:32 am
Cinci,
How about Al “I invented the Internet” Gore. That was made up out of whole cloth and your side still can’t let it go.
Tell me again how Democrats always get a pass on this stuff.
Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:37 am
Rich was very quick to move past Obamas lies regarding rezko no mention of Alexis lies about Brightstart losses or Alexis lies about his charity. Kirk did something stupid but he didn’t help destroy a bank or make bad loans to members of organized crime.
Comment by Fed up Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:41 am
Commander McBragg. Well done. That’s perfect and you even got the Afghanistan episode. Although Kirk wishes he was as distinguished as McBragg.
Kirk also reminds me of Cliff Claven from Cheers.
Comment by just sayin' Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:41 am
Stop inflating his resume!
It’s Lieutenant Commander McBragg, please.
Comment by Don't Worry, Be Happy Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:41 am
Fed Up,
There is no crying in politics.
Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:44 am
People get so defensive when someone calls out Mark Kirk for the liar he is.
Comment by Cheryl44 Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:45 am
Hilary was crying not to long ago. It’s interesting that certain issues get glossed over and dropped after one blog. Rich gets very sensitive when it is mentioned I sense a Bite Me coming.
Comment by Fed up Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:50 am
If you actually read the article, there’s 20 years of work in 4 hemispheres and superiors and colleagues saying he did an incredible job in some very tough issues. There aren’t many senators with that kind of experience and it shows a depth of knowledge being able to do come up with solutions on issues ranging from international economics to bombing sites to drug traffickers.
You’re letting your frustration get in the way of some pretty serious and extrodinary work.
The other thing to consider is who he is up against. Ask alexi where half of those countries the congressman has worked in are on a map, much less anything about them and you’d probably get a pathetic “I play ball with barack who cares if I don’t know anything about international politics”.
Comment by shore Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:50 am
Yes I agree. Very insulting. Kirk seems to think that the voters in Illinois are idiots.
His comment about misremembering is still unbelievable and goofy.
If you tell the truth you don’t have to remember anything. ~Mark Twain
Comment by (618) Democrat Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:50 am
@Cheryl
And people get upset when people call out Alexi for being the incompetent rich boy that he is.
Comment by A.B. Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:51 am
Just wondering…did people not criticize Kirk in the 10th? Or, if they did, were they persuaded to stop simply by being asked or being “bullied” into doing so?
Asking only because it seems that that’s what’s always offered up, by most, as the most “effective” method of damage control.
Seriously, if you can’t “talk it through” on CapFax, how will you ever fix it “out there” over the long haul?
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:51 am
===Boy you let Alexis tax issue go pretty quick===
Let’s see, a Sun-Times column and at least eight blog posts in the past seven working days. And since Giannoulias hasn’t even appeared in public yet to personally answer the questions, I wouldn’t bet on me dropping this any time soon.
News is news, and like it or not, Kirk continued this story by running that BP ad. Also, the story was moved along by the AP piece today. I can see why partisans don’t dig it, but too bad.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:53 am
- You’re letting your frustration get in the way of some pretty serious and extrodinary work. -
No, Kirk let his ego get in the way of that.
Comment by Small Town Liberal Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:53 am
Sorry, I should add “distraction” seems to be another popular method. However, with today’s technology, you really have to–again–wonder how effective distraction is anymore over the long haul.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:53 am
fed up, your ill-informed partisan push-back will just make things worse.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:55 am
=And people get upset when people call out Alexi for being the incompetent rich boy that he is.=
Yeah, the “anti-wealth” thing DOESN’T sit well with many–many Republicans, especially.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:56 am
Kirk once saved McBragg from drowning when the two were Navy Seals assigned to infiltrate Yamamoto’s flagship and capture the Japanese commander during WWII. The 1992 movie “Under Seige” with Steven Segal was loosely based on Kirk’s exploits.
On a serious note, we see Kirk’s camp is out in force today complaining there’s too much attention on Kirk’s problem. A better idea would be for Kirk to tell the truth. But I don’t see that happening. Don’t think he can help himself.
Comment by just sayin' Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:56 am
@shore11:50
=There aren’t many senators with that kind of experience=
There aren’t any senators that would be considered a serial liar. We don’t need a serial liar representing Illinois.
Comment by (618) Democrat Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:56 am
People here should actually read the AP story. You might get a little different picture of Kirk’s military career…and it is based solely on third party testimonials and military records. So you can’t claim Kirk is lying about any of them.
Comment by A.B. Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:57 am
618 Dem, voters her are idiots, Blago was elected twice
Comment by Wumpus Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:58 am
The AP article was the biggest Fluff article I have ever seen, Total BS article… Laughable…….
Comment by I'm Just Saying Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 11:58 am
===Total BS article… Laughable===
C’mon. That was a solid piece. Quite balanced and thoroughly looked at his actual record, which is very impressive. We don’t know what the “real” Commander McBragg accomplished, but Kirk did quite a bit in his career. His problem is that he didn’t tell the truth.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:01 pm
@ 618
-There aren’t any senators that would be considered a serial liar. -
Really? You want to go there?
See Sen. Burris, Sen Moseley-Braun, Sen. Kerry, Sen. Kennedy (RIP), Sen. Franken based on this weeks news. Etc. (yes I realize this is a partisan list and I am aware that their are liar Republican’s, this is just off the top of my head)
Comment by A.B. Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:02 pm
=Boy you let Alexis tax issue go pretty quick.=
Stating up front that I don’t agree with what I believe Rich’s and Kirk’s positions are on this, I think that letting it go might actually be a good thing for Kirk.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:06 pm
I know this might sound like an odd question, but does Kirk have any “Republicans” on his staff–or has representing the 10th for almost ten years “taken its toll”?
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:09 pm
And at the risk of 47th complaining that I’m posting too much, here’s another thing for the newcomers to consider:
If you’re extremely “sensitive”, you’d probably believe that everyone gets “bashed” on a regular basis here at CapFax.
However, you don’t see Quinn’s, Daley’s, Madigan’s, etc. staff or supporters coming out in drove to do nothing more than *complain* about it.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:14 pm
If Kirk is MacBragg then who is the poor friend who always “really has to be going” but always gets roped into the story “whatever did you do”?
Comment by cermak_rd Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:16 pm
you wake up 4 years after the 06 election where the elected governor is on trial, the state is a mess, the state’s finances are in trouble and there’s no leadership or accountability in the state and you ask yourself, how did we get here?
It’s because instead of issues and records, the media focuses on trash and instead of covering the campaign like the economist it covers the senate campaign like national enquirer. As a result the distinguished policy wonk statesman gets destroyed over dotted i’s and crossed t’s, while the empty minded state treasurer gets a free pass for a career that amounts to zero personal accomplishment and little policy experience.
Has a single reporter asked Alexi what his policy would be towards pakistan? If he supports this administrations trashing of our allies in israel and england? How he thinks general petraeus should proceed in afghanistan? Whether he’s with his party’s congressional leadership that wants more spending or the administration that wants more cutting?
No because a)covering the olympic bid was enough foreign policy for them b)they don’t understand the issues c)they aren’t willing to walk their talk for more policy discussion (every sun times columnist, greg hinz, ect).
Comment by shore Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:23 pm
Interesting observation, cermak.
Think this might all be PR? If so, you have again wonder about the *precedent* that’s being set then re: IL politics–and the possible long-term rammifications this type and level of PR might have on Kirk, the man.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:30 pm
And whether he’ll be able to successfully recover from any “self-inflicted” PR damage within the amount of time that’s left.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:31 pm
Time to give it a rest re Mark Kirk. I’m a veteran, and I spend a lot of time volunteering at the North Chicago Va. Rep Kirk has done a lot to preserve and enhance the hospital when it seemed it was on the VA chopping block. His office is always receptive to veterans issues when no one else seems to care. With five terms in Congress under his belt and a naval career, is this what his future boils down to? He lied on his resume, so that’s that? This gives us some all encompassing “insight” into his character? When do the long knives come out for Jan Schakowsky in the 9th because her husband is a convicted felon? I will still vote for Kirk rather than send an inexperienced kid into a chamber of 100 of the world’s most powerful and egotistical elected officials. Kirk may get chewed up and spit out like Pete Fitzgerald, but his track record of successfully representing the 10th District makes it a no brainer.
Comment by Cook County Commoner Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:36 pm
@ shore
This is not about dotted i’s and crossed t’s this is about Kirk knowingly telling lies over and over again. This is about Kirk continuing to lie by putting up false ads and making false claims about his opponent.
The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousand fold. ~Aristotle
Comment by (618) Democrat Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:45 pm
“And what do we call a candidate who thinks the voters are too stupid to see the truth for what it is?”
- Answer: Rod Blagojevich…and he was right, they elected him TWICE!
Comment by Seriously? Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:49 pm
Rich can stell me to stuff it if he thinks I’m way off-base, but a lot of people (including Rich, perhaps?!) expect better from Mark Kirk. He’s a five-term Congressman who is a graduate of Cornell and Georgetown, two of the most prestigious universities in America. He has been around the political game a long time and, before this string of untruths, was as much of a wonk as anyone we have serving in Congress. And he didn’t need to inflate his Naval Intelligence records. But he muffed the punt on all of it by sinking to the level we too often see in politics and now he looks foolish. If he loses this race, it’s his own fault.
Comment by Team Sleep Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 12:57 pm
=Kirk may get chewed up and spit out like Pete Fitzgerald=
If Kirk keeps getting hit the way he is without controlling the damage, I’d argue that that’s almost a certainty.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 1:06 pm
No Kirk supporter is pleased with the resume braggadocio which was totally unnecessary and is a terrible distraction to the campaign. But as others here have pointed out, Hillary, Al Gore, Joe Biden and MANY other public figures too numerous to mention have exaggerated and embellished their good works to look even better–were caught, were called out and embarrassed, were laughed at, made SNL or the Jon Stewart Show—and have gone on to fight another day in important positions. Mark Kirk will too, because most people see it for exactly what it is in politics, (not as an unabashed lying liar any more than the rest of the aforementioned politicians were).
When “the thing” goes beyond news and becomes overdone and embellished with flourishes in the blogs and media as is now happening with Kirk, this is what usually happens: It is seen as a political quirk, is increasingly viewed as an election cycle kerfuffle, and becomes reduced to almost a joke. The impact peters out. Comparing the hilarious Commander McBragg cartoon of a military man to Kirk is actually kind of a step in that usual trajectory, I think. The loyal opposition will continue to push “Kirk’s lies”, but normal people are ready to move on, and have done so.
Again, no one I know condones the extras Kirk added to his experiences and no one is excusing it or pretending it did not occur. But weighed against Alexi’s own resume issues and many other problems, Kirk is still head and shoulders the better candidate to represent Illinois in the US Senate.
Comment by Responsa Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 1:10 pm
Sometimes it doesn’t do me any good to not listen to Limbaugh and Drudge. I get my right-wing spin here at CapFax.
“Illinois is the Greece of the USA”
“Obama’s lies regarding Rezko”
“Alexi’s lies about Brightstart losses”
“Alexi’s lies about his charity”
“(Giannoulias) help(ed) destroy a bank”
“(Giannoulias made) bad loans to members of organized crime”
“Serial Liars: Sen. Burris, Sen Moseley-Braun, Sen. Kerry, Sen. Kennedy (RIP), Sen. Franken based on this weeks news”
“administration trashing of our allies in Israel and England”
Comment by Lefty Lefty Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 1:11 pm
===but normal people are ready to move on, and have done so. ===
You got any polling numbers backing that up?
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 1:11 pm
The problem for Kirk is that his lack of attention to the truth goes beyond his bio.
On issues like cap and trade he has a history of telling people whatever they want to hear (or whatever he believes will get him five more votes).
Alexi will be able to tie the bio to cap and trade, etc. and make a compelling case that every word of Kirk should be treated as false until proven true.
What this comes down to is that ultimately, Kirk lacks character. He will say anything.
Comment by Skeeter Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 1:14 pm
I wish I had a nickel for every post that says nothing except that Kirk is a liar.
That just isn’t enough.
Both men are liars.
The difference is that Kirk has a record to lie about, and Giannoulais doesn’t.
Case closed.
I choose Liar #1.
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 1:17 pm
=When “the thing” goes beyond news and becomes overdone and embellished with flourishes in the blogs and media as is now happening with Kirk…it is seen as a political quirk, is increasingly viewed as an election cycle kerfuffle, and becomes reduced to almost a joke. The impact peters out.=
Just two questions then:
-If you really believe that, Responsa, why do you blog–especially on a blog like CapFax?
-Couldn’t that be argued both ways then (i.e., the “positives” fizzle out as well)–or will you take those?
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 1:28 pm
====but normal people are ready to move on, and have done so. ===
Missed that one. How do you define “normal” people, Responsa. You seem to exclude “the loyal opposition” but what about everyone else–even those still unsure about Kirk?
The latter is often a huge consideration during campaigns. Have they moved on, too–and if so, to where?
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 1:32 pm
“There are times, Mr. Miller, when I think I should have been a librarian.” http://bit.ly/ResumeRegrets
http://twitter.com/CaptKirk4Senate
Comment by Capt. Kirk for Senate Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 1:59 pm
—If you really believe that, Responsa, why do you blog–especially on a blog like CapFax?–
Actually I do not “blog” on my own. But I do read Cap Fax nearly every day because I find Rich and the regular people here to be fascinating, and generally thought provoking and caring of the country and the State of Illinois–even through all the partisan posturing. I learn things here about people and situations which are of great interest but are often outside my usual milieu. On Cap Fax I see with more clarity what some on the other side of the political spectrum are thinking and feeling and doing about issues. I comment on threads here occasionally but only when I have something to say that I hope others might find useful, or interesting, or thought provoking–or if I feel I may have an insight to share from my own experiences or observations.
In short I am here for the same reasons I assume most regulars are. But, thanks for asking in such a thoughtful manner.
-
Comment by Responsa Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:03 pm
Kirk has great solid ammo against Alexi, but instead he has to fabricate an attak add?
Kirks need to lie when it is uneccessary appears almost pathological at this point
Comment by Ghost Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:15 pm
Kirk chose some interesting people to validate him after this broke. One person of interest is Adam Kinzinger, who is suffering from his own memory issues. Here’s Adam Kinzinger’s statement supporting Kirk: http://ellenofthetenth.blogspot.com/2010/06/is-adam-kinzinger-standing-by-mark-kirk.html
Now, here’s Adam Kinzinger’s own troubles when it comes to referencing his own military record: http://www.honestlyadam.com
Candidates put disclaimers next to pictures of them in their uniforms, noting how their uniform does not denote any endorsement from the branch they serve(d) in. Perhaps they should put this same disclaimer next to their bios.
Comment by Honesty First Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:23 pm
I definitely wouldn’t lump Adam Kinzinger in with Mark Kirk. The stuff in Kinzinger’s case is truly nitpicking. Immaterial.
Completely different story with Kirk’s behavior.
Comment by just sayin' Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:28 pm
The Sun-Times’ fuss and bluster are hilarious. This is the gang that not only endorsed Blago for a second term (when most major media endorsed Judy), but they endorsed him enthusiastically.
They are forever tarnished.
Comment by LincolnLounger Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:28 pm
Right on! the Sun times is at fault for making kirk lie about everything from his military carrerr, teaching credentials, to the links between BP and alexi.
If the Sun time would just stop reporting truthful and acurate information about Kirks falsehoods, then Kirk could safely hide away.
Comment by Ghost Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:31 pm
Really, Lounger? Why didn’t you tell us that before? Obviously now that we know, we’re all not only going to stop reading the SunTimes, but we’re also going to read only those things you believe we should–because obviously everyone is too “impressionable”. Bet you disliked the Trib at some point, too–maybe after the Ryan fiasco? But they’re your friend now, right?
Personally, I like both of them–and a bunch of other sources, too.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:41 pm
Too bad your summary of the fine AP article was marred by your Commander McBragg headline.
Comment by Louis G. Atsaves Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:47 pm
Too bad Kirk’s years of service were marred by his complete lack of character,
Comment by Skeeter Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:49 pm
Alot of us probably read it yesterday, Louis. And as Rich noted–and many of us already knew–Kirk has a very impressive military record.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:54 pm
14 July 13:17 Vanilla man, one of Kirk’s most fervent supporters admits Kirk is a liar. Then says he is going to vote for the liar.
Wow, really strange, but I do agree Kirk is a liar.
Comment by (618) Democrat Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 2:56 pm
Pick a liar, and vote for him. There are two to choose from.
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 3:05 pm
I’d rather wait to see which one lies his way out first and then decide…thank you very much, V-Man.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 3:07 pm
@ VanillaMan 13:17
=The difference is that Kirk has a record to lie about=
Huh? What?
Comment by (618) Democrat Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 3:22 pm
=The difference is that Kirk has a record to lie about=
LOL
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 3:25 pm
618, VManis right. Kirk does have a strong record to lie about.
For instance, there is his strong record on cap and trade.
And his strong record on cutting spending.
And his strong record on the repeal of Health Care Reform.
His record is very strong. Unfortunately, it is a very strong record of taking conflicting positions.
Comment by Skeeter Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 3:27 pm
Next week, it will be Giannoulais’ turn being called a liar.
Again.
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 3:44 pm
Liars (and their apologists) play the “can’t we move on now” card because that is all they have.
Once you’ve marred your integrity, people will question your word forever. That’s why it is so important to be honest.
If Jason Blair ever gets a journalism job again, his work will be heavily fact-checked. He doesn’t get to be mad about that.
Kirk and his people cannot undo his words, so they stomp and complain about the long afterlife of his lies. If they want to fuss about this, they should fuss at him.
Comment by Zora Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 3:54 pm
Zora,
Not a bad point, but when will the Alexi supporter stop saying, “Kirk is a liar,” no matter what the topic being discussed? I think that we see that line whenever Kirk is mentioned here in CapitolFax, and I can understand why Kirk supporters get frustrated, just like the “Mob Banker” line gets a rise out of Alexi supporters.
Just curious, what are the issues in this race?
Comment by Cincinnatus Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 4:22 pm
Cincy,
Calling Alexi a mob banker doesn’t make him one.
In contrast, it is clear that Kirk has in fact lied about his record repeatedly.
What are the issues? I think cap and trade is an issue, as is deficit spending.
Cincy, why don’t you tell us where Kirk stands on those issues.
Comment by Skeeter Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 4:37 pm
Cincinnatus, in a political race, I don’t think the other side will ever stop saying “liar” or “mob banker.” They don’t cut one another that kind of slack.
My point is that there are extraordinary, durable aspects to lying that are nearly impossible to overcome. Lying destroys both the liar’s character and the audience’s trust (whether the audience is the public, subscribers, an aggrieved spouse, whomever…).
That is a potent weapon in the hands of the opposition. I don’t see them letting it go, saying, “well it is time to move on now.”
Kirk’s people can and will insist that it is time to move on, but like ice water in hell, wanting it won’t make it happen.
Comment by Zora Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 4:40 pm
After twenty years of Naval reserve service as an officer, Rep. Kirk apparently didn’t learn that lying is not considered an honorable quality.
Comment by MikeMacD Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 4:55 pm
My problem with Kirk’s lying about his military record is its breathtaking cynicism. Every week, a number of Americans, mostly painfully young men, are killed in Iraq and Afghanistan — and a lot more are going to die in Afghanistan very soon.
In that context, Kirk’s use of his capable reserve service to make himself out to be like some sort of Austin Kirk, International Congressman of Mystery, is vulgar, offensive and a deal-breaker.
Don’t worry, there’s no reason to vote for Alexi, either. His candidacy would be over if it weren’t for Kirk’s lies.
Given that, if the Tea Party is such big heat in Illinois, how come Cohen will likely be on the ballot and they won’t?
Go Green.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 5:00 pm
It is not without good reason said, that he who has not a good memory should never take upon him the trade of lying. ~Michel de Montaigne, translated
If Kirk ever read this he surley misremeber it.
Comment by (618) Democrat Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 5:37 pm
Alexi has told four different stories about his relationship with Micahel Jaws Gingreco. Four. So to his supporters, which one is the truth? Which 3 are false? Don’t give me Kirk is a liar response. You believe in your candidate so stand behind him. So tell me, Rich, and everyone else reading, which one of the four (4) different explanations he has given to the Trib and ST boards is the truth? Anyone?
Comment by BH Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 6:39 pm
@BH 18:39
I don’t have a clue what you are talking about. But since you mentioned that Kirk is a liar….
Comment by (618) Democrat Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 6:53 pm
Rich, i belive Obama stated on CNN during a specch that “My father served in WWII” well Obamas father was born in 1936 kinda convient that lie was glossed over huh.
Comment by fed up Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 7:00 pm
Still no mention of the LIES alexi tells about his charity. or the fact he still hasnt filed the required ethics statement. Why would he not file an ethics statement.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 7:02 pm
=Liars (and their apologists) play the “can’t we move on now” card because that is all they have.=
It’s like a bad (or good, whichever way it suits you, I guess) Country Western song. (No offense to Country Western fans. I listen sometimes, too.)
=Not a bad point, but when will the Alexi supporter stop saying, “Kirk is a liar,” no matter what the topic being discussed?=
Duuuuuuaaahhhhhh…When Kirk starts rebuilding his credibility. AND what the Kirk campaign can’t seem to understand is that “Mob Banker”–even though it’s a catchy phrase–CAN actually hurt Kirk’s credibility each time it’s uttered as well.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 7:08 pm
It’s almost as if someone in marketing is trying to come up with that “jingle” or “catchy brand name that” they’ll be able to use throughout the entire Campaign–AND they’re willing to make stuff up about the product that people know is untrue or partially true. They seem to think that if they repeat it enough times, people will begin to believe it, rather than stop buying the damn product.
It’s like the ridiculous “hair” theme that McKenna thought was going to be such a big win for him.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 7:13 pm
=Alexi has told four different stories about his relationship with Micahel Jaws Gingreco.=
And I HATE saying this, but it goes back to something someone said on another blog. Paraphrased: “Do you think lying is OK? No, of course not. Would you lie if you had to LITERALLY save the life of a family member. Well, of course I would. Then there are exceptions to ‘never’ lying? Yes.”
It seems more “understandable” or “palatable”–though still distasteful–when there IS a reason to lie. And as I’ve said before, some people can even tell stories AND fib to drive home a point–without being called a liar if they set the appropriate context for the story.
But to keep lying to make yourself look better, or to make an opponent look worse raises questions and doubts.
The question becomes: Why do you think you’re not good enough “as is”–and if that’s true, why should we? And, if you believe that your lies are grounded in behavior, would it make more sense to change the behavior then?
THAT, I think, is the real issue.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 7:30 pm
And, I’ll say it again–as a Republican. While Kirk has taken full responsibility for all of this–which is, of course admirable–I’d still like to believe that a portion of all of this can still be attributed to over zealous and highly creative campaign staff. Whether they’re still there–or not.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 7:45 pm
47th Ward where ARE you? You are needed again for service on this thread.
Comment by Responsa Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 7:51 pm
How “thoughtful”, Reponsa.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 7:54 pm
How many supporters has Kirk lost recently, Responsa, thanks to “thoughtful” people like you? And long-time supporters, I’ll add…but that just makes you sooo much more “elitist” then, doesn’t it?
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 7:56 pm
No reply, Responsa? What next? If you:
-Don’t agree with us on EVERYTHING, but still support us;
-Aren’t one of our biggest contributors (money, of course);
-Don’t live in the 10th;
-Are not Campaign staff;
-Are not Family?…
YOU are against US. Where does it end? Interesting way to win an election, Responsa.
Hearts and minds.
Comment by The REAL Anonymous fka Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 8:15 pm
= I definitely wouldn’t lump Adam Kinzinger in with Mark Kirk. The stuff in Kinzinger’s case is truly nitpicking. Immaterial. =
‘just sayin’ - I have to disagree. This is what Adam Kinzinger’s camp has been saying, but it’s just not something you make a simple mistake about.
An insinuation was being attempted.
Comment by Honesty First Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 9:05 pm
–Rich, i belive Obama stated on CNN during a specch that “My father served in WWII” well Obamas father was born in 1936 kinda convient that lie was glossed over huh–
That’s quite a scoop you’ve got there Jimmy Olson. It’s amazing some of the bright lights at Fox didn’t catch it.
I’m guessing, though, that he said grandfather. But keep on it — the truth is out there.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 9:29 pm
===but normal people are ready to move on, and have done so. ===
You got any polling numbers backing that up?
Kirk is down in the latest poll, no?
People really are moving on - away from the serial liar.
Comment by The Ghost of McBragg Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 9:37 pm
Fed Up (& Wordslinger) - It was his uncle. And Obama clearly said “uncle”.
But he did mess up the German internment camp which his uncle helped liberate and that was what the GOP pounced on.
It’s not like McCain didn’t have his own share of screw-ups on both historical matters and current events. I recall him referencing “Czechoslovakia” which hasn’t been a country in quite some time The two halves split into the Czech Republic and Slovak Republic some time ago but you wouldn’t know it from McCain.
Comment by The Ghost of McBragg Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 9:41 pm
Mr. Rich: Why the do we continue to beat a dead horse…so, Kirk is not your candidate…but he does have you or Alexis will never have: the priviledge and the honor of wearting a US armed forces uniform.
Comment by ChicagoDem Wednesday, Jul 14, 10 @ 10:24 pm
===but he does have you or Alexis will never have: the priviledge and the honor of wearting a US armed forces uniform.===
Don’t drink and blog.
Comment by Obamarama Thursday, Jul 15, 10 @ 2:31 am