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Two big holes in Quinn’s logic

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* Yesterday, our commenter P. Symth pointed out the gigantic flaw in Gov. Pat Quinn’s announcement that he wants to use the income tax increase to force local school boards to lower property taxes…

This shows he doesn’t know anything about the State money going to the schools. The schools in the highest taxing districts do not qualify for state money; the schools in the lower income areas do. Thus, Quinn is saying “If you are a school district in a poor community, we want you to take less money and try to make it work, while the rich guys over there have no problems and don’t have to lower their taxes”.

The commenter is absolutely spot-on.

Jamey Dunn tried to get some specifics yesterday from Quinn’s office, but had no luck…

Requests to Quinn’s budget office for more specifics on his proposal were met with referral back to tape of the news conference that Quinn held in Chicago earlier today, where he took questions on the plan but did not get into the numbers.

This looks like an on-site audible by Quinn. Either that or his new media guy suggested it without running the numbers first.

* Remember the new TV ad that Pat Quinn is running?…

Well, according to Todd Vandermyde of the NRA, the gun pictured at the start of the video is already illegal in Illinois.

“That is an MP-5,” Vandermyde said this morning. “It’s illegal as a machine gun, it’s illegal as a short-barreled rifle.”

* Related and a roundup…

* State-funded pensions tapped

* State pension systems planning to sell assets to pay benefits

* Quinn suggests tax switch

* Ex-inspector general: Quinn’s ex-chief of staff should not have resigned

* E-mail trail: The hunt for a new Executive Inspector General

* The real issue lurking behind Quinn’s email `scandal’

* Quinn names Duffin acting DHS secretary

* Fewer Tollway workers to get state cars

* Tollway reduces car perk, reviewing transponders and phones

* Tollway targets free rides for employees

* Tollway wants accountability in Hoosier toll mistake

* Lawsuit targets state juvenile department for teen’s suicide

posted by Rich Miller
Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:03 am

Comments

Remember the Blago ad from 2006 where he’s standing in a field talking about ethanol, but the field was planted in soybeans and not corn?

Comment by Don't Worry, Be Happy Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:11 am
Does Quinn realize that while “gun violence is on the rise and street gangs are in open warfare” that he has been Governor and done nothing about it? Disregard the fact that he has done the same for all of the problems here in Illinois.

Comment by Reggie P Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:16 am
Quinn was just winging it, again. He did it for most of his career and nobody paid attention. Old habits are hard to break.

Comment by wordslinger Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:19 am
- Reggie P - Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:16 am:

“Does Quinn realize that while “gun violence is on the rise and street gangs are in open warfare” that he has been Governor and done nothing about it? Disregard the fact that he has done the same for all of the problems here in Illinois.”

Funnier still is that, as several posters on this blog have noticed, statistics show that these types of violence have decreased in recent days.

Quinn: Out of Tune, Out of Step, Out to Lunch, Looking for a Fork.

Comment by Cincinnatus Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:21 am
That “look squirrel” line from last week still has me cracking up and stories like these keep bringing it back to my mind. That may be the best line in this campaign.

Comment by Jim F. Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:23 am
Actually, the comment about school funding is not totally accurate. There have been several pieces of legislation in recent years that sought to increae income taxes and provide property tax relief … effectively changing the formula for school funding. Until we move off a flat-tax in Illinois, that’s about the best that can be done.

It’s more realistic than Bill Brady’s idea that he’s gonna create a special little pot of money to provide property tax relief. Ain’t no way that’s gonna happen without a revenue increase.

Comment by ShadyBillBrady Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:24 am
Finger in the wind, Quinn. He simply took what was a popular issue and claimed it. Who wants innocent kids to get killed. Blame Brady. Classic Quinn

Comment by Wumpus Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:28 am
Perhaps next year Quinn can become a Oldsmobile dealer and have ads showing Fords.

Comment by VanillaMan Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:46 am
What do you think about the taxpayers’ hiring some public policy and tax professionals to do some sit down interviews with the two candidates? Maybe we could find such experts (non partisan of course) to volunteer their time. Really put Quinn and Brady to the test. Force them to flesh out their proposals. And not let them do their flim flam song and dance routines with an ineffective media?

We are stumbling into an extremely important election and setting ourselves up for another “the voters blew it!”. Right now, the voters have no control over the process. And it just sucks!

Comment by Vole Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:53 am
Quinncompetence

Comment by Pat Robertson Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:55 am
Of course how many people concened about guns will know the mp-5 is already illegal? Gives Brdy a nice response ad though to make Quinn look out of touch.

Comment by Ghost Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 12:05 pm
How is it “out of touch” to not know be able to identify the mp-5? I would guess MOST Illinois citizens wouldn’t recognize one, be able to name it, or identify it’s legal status.

And if we’re worried about the bills being from the 90’s, how about the DismissQuinn stuff that regurgitates the Hynes use of the Washington piece? That’s a bit dated too, no?

Comment by ShadyBillBrady Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 12:16 pm
Getting a little testy, aren’t you, Mr. Shady?

Comment by N'ville Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 12:29 pm
I would guess MOST Illinois citizens wouldn’t recognize one, be able to name it, or identify it’s legal status.

Shady is right. The ad wasn’t about facts, it was about that scary music and that scary gun that going to get you!

BOO!

Comment by VanillaMan Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 12:37 pm
No. I’ve been test for quite some time, thank you very much.

Comment by ShadyBillBrady Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 12:37 pm
so many misunderstand the poor governor—for him gun control is very personal–anything to lessen the number of times he shoots himself in the foot.

Comment by publius Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 12:38 pm
so what we’re saying is that, if gov. quinn did get a tax increase passed that he couldn’t, under any conditions, use that money to lower property taxes???

all these arguments make my head spin. first democrats are criticized because government is too powerful. and then i’m told that government can’t do something (my observation would be that most politicians don’t think they are limited in anything that they can legislate, whether it’s legislating tax cuts — like quinn — or legislating morality — like brady). what am i missing here???

Comment by bored now Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 12:41 pm
Since when did concepts like facts, truth, and accuracy become tools for analyzing campaign rhetoric?

With respect to the mp-5, it is used for its symbolic value to convey a concept. The ad does not say that that particular weapon is legal in Illinois. In addition, I suspect that Todd V. and the NRA would support a bill legalizing machine guns &/or short barreled rifles and that they would expect Gov. Brady to sign such a bill. From that perspective, the ad is pretty accurate. (In a quick review of the NRA-ILA website, I could not find a discussion of such a bill.)

Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 12:53 pm
Anti-gun people are fairly often remarkably ignorant about them. No great surprise there.

Comment by titan Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 1:19 pm
== How is it “out of touch” to not know be able to identify the mp-5? I would guess MOST Illinois citizens wouldn’t recognize one, be able to name it, or identify it’s legal status. ==

Most folks in this state do not write nor appear in political ads. It’s stupid because you can counter the ad so easy…

Image of the Gun with Voice Over

“This is a MP-5, and yes it is not designed for hunting, it is also already illegal in Illinois. It was not impacted by the assault weapons ban. It has been illegal for a long time in this state. If Pat Quinn was really concerned about this issue you think he would take the time to know that.

Do you think someone who going to shoot someone really cares if the weapon is illegal.

Bill Brady is in favor of harsh prison terms for people who commit crimes with guns.

Pat Quinn gave X inmates who were convicted of crimes involving firearms an early release from prison.

Bill Brady, real solutions to crime…”

Comment by OneMan Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 1:21 pm
You cannot “encourage” school boards to change property tax policy. The current state aid formula assumes that each school district has maxed out its property tax under PTEL. If you don’t max out on property taxes, you also lose general aid from the state. Unless you are going to revoke PTEL and draft a whole new formula for education funding you are not touching this.

The only way to control property taxes is a full scale swap. Forbid property taxes by schools and increase the income tax to 100% fund schools from the state. The problem is that local taxpayers then lose the option to pay more for better schools.

The fact that anyone who has been in IL politics as long as he has does not have a better understanding of this issue is phenominal.

One has to arive at one of two conclusions. Pat Quinn is actually getting dumber, or he has had enough of this and wants out. Apparently Brady’s 10 point lead was making him uncomfortable.

I expect Pat to ask the AG in investigate the Speaker of the House any day now.

Comment by the Patriot Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 1:33 pm
Shady is back. I thought the poll numbers had sent him/her home. Haven’t seen you around, Shady.

The discussion for the gun ad went something like this, “That’s one heck of a scary looking gun. Look at the shadow that thing casts. Yeah, let’s use that one. Run it.”

Comment by Old Milwaukee Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 1:35 pm
Oh, it’s not ignorance on the part of the anti-gunners. They know exactly whereof they speak. A quote from Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center:

“The weapons’ menacing looks, coupled with the public’s confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun—can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons.”

It’s just another attempt to confuse people and demonize inanimate objects. If you deem something to be scary and menacing, it will become evil in the uninformed person’s mind and easier to restrict or ban. Oddly enough, although a Short Barrelled machine gun like the MP5 IS illegal in Illinois, it is legal to own in Indiana, Kentucky and 36 other states, providing the tax stamps are bought and the rules are followed. Oh, and they’re allowed in such wild west bastions as New Jersey, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maryland. Funny, you never see much about them being used in crimes in those states.

Comment by TimB Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 1:52 pm
TimB

It’s because those guns are not being used in crimes in those states. They are being stockpiled by the independent militia groups in case the Big Bad Scary Government comes to take away their Bibles, their guns or their stash of grape kool-aid.

Comment by ShadyBillBrady Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 2:17 pm
OM, glad to know I was missed.

I’ve been busy taking my message to the InterTubes over on Tweeter. They say it’s limited to 140 characters, but let me tell you, there are LOTS more characters than that on that thing.

Comment by ShadyBillBrady Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 2:19 pm
Since Governor Quinn owns a home in Chicago he should be the last one to worry about property taxes for schools, his are so cheap it is sad. On August 23 the Civic Federation released a report: “EFFECTIVE PROPERTY TAX RATES 1999-2008:Selected Municipalities in Northeastern Illinois”

Guess what? The City of Chicago has just about the lowest total tax rate in all Northeastern Illinois. One of the reasons the Chicago Public Schools cann’t afford to pay its teachers and is laying off 1,700 is because Mayor Daley has kept property taxes so low.

The Civic Fed uses effective property tax rates as its measure. This effective rate translates the tax rates on property tax bills into rates that reflect the percentage of full market value that a property owed in taxes for a given year.

Here are the effective rates for Chicago: 1.31% for residential,1 2.35% for commercial, and 1.61% for industrial properties. Here are the rates for Orland Park 2.09% for residential, 4.98% for commercial, and 5.43% for industrial properties.

Apparently Chicago wants to pay next to nothing in residential property taxes. You pay for what you get in terms of education in Illinois.

Comment by Rod Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 2:23 pm
SBB,
Then why feature them in an ad about crime? Oh, and I prefer the cherry kool-ade.

TimB

Comment by TimB Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 2:24 pm
Rod said,

“One of the reasons the Chicago Public Schools cann’t afford to pay its teachers and is laying off 1,700 is because Mayor Daley has kept property taxes so low.”

This statement almost makes me believe that the Mayor understands economics (the study of ends, means and incentives). Why should he recommend increased rates to Chicagoans when he can manipulate Springfield to redistribute wealth so that the City does not have to raise the money to operate itself.

Comment by Cincinnatus Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 2:31 pm
Thanks for the acknowledgment Rich, I appreciate it. In response to this statement:

ShadyBillBrady - Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 11:24 am:

Actually, the comment about school funding is not totally accurate. There have been several pieces of legislation in recent years that sought to increae income taxes and provide property tax relief … effectively changing the formula for school funding. Until we move off a flat-tax in Illinois, that’s about the best that can be done.

It was my understanding that Quinn stated it was up to the LOCAL SCHOOL BOARD to lower the property taxes if they wanted state aid. I support an overall change in the funding formula; but that was not how I read the post on this subject.

Comment by Paul S. Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 3:13 pm
Paul, certainly what was presented yesterday left room for speculation. Here’s what I read on the blog yesterday:

“Quinn … said his proposal for an income tax increase would lead to lower local property taxes … he would seek legislation requiring schools to reduce property tax bills before they could get additional state support … I think if the state helps local schools with more money … it also means cutting local property taxes.”

I took that to mean he’d seek legislation similar to 750 / 174, etc. But I could be wrong.

And, it’s not the best solution, because it does, as Rich pointed out, mean that there’s still the same level of funding (even though the formular would change). The best solultion would be to change the state constitution to allow for a progressive tax. But this would still be better than the current situation which punishes children who live in the poorest areas of the state, imho.

And it’s better than Shady Bill Brady, who wants to cut school funding even further and just thinks he’ll wave his magic wand and come up with a property tax relief fund (undoubtedly administered by him) and he’ll get teachers to agree to 10% pay cuts.

Comment by ShadyBillBrady Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 3:38 pm
This is typical of the deceit used by anti-gunners based upon the if it looks like a machinegun — it must be. Sugarman used that in their media hype in the 90s.

And Pat Quinns campaign did support a ban on the sale of ALL semi-auto firearms like remington 11-87s and Winchester SX3s,Ruger 10/22s and every Glock or 1911 45.

So I wonder how that Sportsman for Quinn thing is going to look? Oh I know, their logo will have a flintlock musket. Cause if Quinn had his way that’s all that would be left

The sad thing is I asked the Governor about this issue and he told me he wasn’t going to be going after the gun issue. And that was before the supreme court ruled against Chicago.

Governor, at least be honest about this. Put 11-87 in the ad and run it down state.

Comment by Todd Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 5:52 pm
income tax lead to lower property tax? You must have gotten an F in every math class.
Income tac 30,000 per year. 1% Quinn tax hike amounts to 300.00
Property tax 5000.00 per year. Lower by lets say 2% equals 100.00 savings

You will be still paying 200.00 more per year. Invest in a calculator.

The solution is to cut spending, stop waste, cut useless programs.

Comment by Sigma Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 8:14 pm
CUT your PROPERTY taxes? “Quinn-tessential” Quinn!
Save your innocent CHILDREN and YOURSELVES from Assault-Weapon-providin’ bad BB GUN Guy? Even MORE “Quinn-tessential” Quinn! Gotta love it! The race is on folks and I can just feel those poll numbers tightening up…!

Comment by Just The Way It Is One Friday, Aug 27, 10 @ 8:19 pm
Same old story, the Illinois Tollway’s been handing out perks like state vehicles, Blackberry’s & Iphones, laptop computers, free health insurance, every since Blagojevich took office.
Kristi Lafleur - Executive Director & Illinois Tollway Board of Directors Chair Paula Wolff HAVE CHANGED NOTHING !

Comment by Wacker Drive Saturday, Aug 28, 10 @ 11:57 am
Chicago spends $11,300 per student as opposed to, for example, Manteno, IL which spends $4,500.

Average spending across IL went from around $7,500 in 1994 to $9,500 in 2004.

Comment by Melancton Smith Sunday, Aug 29, 10 @ 4:26 am
The statement regarding “rich” schools not receiveing state money is not “spot-on” it’s “flat wrong”! When schools meet certain EAV/student and operational spending per student criteria, there is a formula by which poorer schools are given more state money.

Once a district has a certain amount of wealth, revenue and assets, it comes under the “flat grant” category where a fixed amount is given to them by the state. It’s usually in the $400-$600 per student range. The state also gives “rich” districts money for categoricals, special education, and other grants such as construction. “Poor” districts get a higher percentage of the cost in grants for construction. They receive as much as 50% of the cost of approved construction, while “rich” districts only get 35%.

I suspect that this whole “property tax relief” Martire-like fraud will never practically materialize in legislation, unless it leaves loop holes so big you could drive a truck through it.

No WAY the educrats or unions are ever going to let a revenue stream for raises and benefits get away from them.

Comment by PalosParkBob Monday, Aug 30, 10 @ 12:59 pm
I’m guessing the gun control ad (as deceptive as it is) will be very effective in Illinois, the state that elected Blagojevich…..twice.

Comment by howie Monday, Aug 30, 10 @ 3:59 pm