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* The setup…
Catholic school officials in Quincy are urging parents to support legislation that would restore funding for the Illinois Textbook Loan Program.
The $42 million program was cut from the state budget the past two years, forcing schools to find alternative funds to buy updated books that could be loaned to students. The program also has been used to buy learning materials and instructional computer software.
“The Illinois Textbook Loan Program is very important to help us in acquiring new textbooks for our students,” said Janet Bick, principal of St. Peter Elementary School in Quincy, which serves about 360 students in grades K-8.
“When that was cut from the state budget, that hurt our budgets tremendously in the Catholic schools as well as it did, I’m sure, the public schools.”
The money does not all go to private and parochial schools. It’s spread around among all schools that ask for it.
* The Question: Should private and parochial schools be eliminated from the textbook loan program? Explain.
posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:24 am
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Yes, private schools should not be included. It is bad enough that I have to pay both for tuition to the school for my kids and also support public schools. Asking me also to pay for private schools that my kids don’t attend is asking too much.
Comment by Jasper Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:29 am
yes. this is non essential spending in the first place and even more so for private education. If they can fork over the extra dough for private education, they can add a few bucks for books.
off with its head!
Comment by shore Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:29 am
Yes, I agree with shore and Jasper.
Comment by Dead Head Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:36 am
Under the current system and budget constraints, it’s hard to justify this program for private schools.
Not with the growing costs each year of Illinois “free” public education. I got my head kicked in with $400 for each kid at my public high school this year in book costs and other sundry fees. Each sport is $55 pay to play. There’s a lot of that going around, everywhere.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:37 am
No. By sending our children to private schools we are taking a huge burden off the public school system. The notion that everyone that sends their kids to private schools is wealthy is far from the truth. I don’t see upgrading text books as “non essential.”
I live in Chicago. While the public grade schools in my area were an option, we decided on a Catholic school for several reasons. The Chicago Public high school in our area is simply NOT an option.
Not only have I paid to send my own children to private school, my choice, but I also pay for your children to attend public school.
Comment by Because I say so Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:38 am
ALL non essential spending should be cut for private and public education as well as every other program that Illinois spends money on.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:42 am
Providing textbooks to private schools is not as important as helping low income seniors pay for medications. We keep being told that there isn’t enough money for everything. How about prioritizing?
Comment by Aldyth Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:45 am
Because I say so- I certainly sympathize with your perspective, also living in Chicago and also having grim ratings with area schools. However, I would say that I would much rather public funding go towards fixing this terrible imbalance than subsidizing those who can afford to pay extra to correct it (whether rich or not).
Having said that, the amount is less than a rounding error and in the does not amount to much one way or another.
Comment by Dirt Digger Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:47 am
It seems that if taxpayers are paying for the books, the government should be giving the private schools a list of approved books. This probably isn’t a big issue for the Catholic schools since Roman Catholic dogma doesn’t fight with evolution or re-write the history of the Civil War, the New Deal, the Civil Rights movement, etc.
But taxpayers should not be subsidizing the propaganda many Protestant fundamentalists peddle as “history” and “science”.
Comment by Carl Nyberg Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:47 am
I don’t want public funds to go to any private school, particularly religious schools. If you want your child to have a Catholic/Baptist/Buddhist education, you need to pay for it yourself.
Comment by Cheryl44 Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:51 am
Yes, funding should be eliminated on the same bill that provides parents with vouchers they can use at any certified school.
Comment by Cincinnatus Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:56 am
The textbooks are for Illinois students, not the schools. As long as they aren’t buying bibles or religious textbooks, this program ought to stay.
Parents who send their kids to parochial schools still pay taxes you know. This spending is a drop in the bucket, but serves an important state goal.
Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:56 am
Eliminate this program as well as every other targeted program. Take all funds for education and distribute thru the general state aid. This allows local schools to use money where it is needed as well as allowing for a dramatic reduction in the bureaucracy from the local level thru the ROE to the state as well as the fed. This can mean more money makes it way to the classroom.
Comment by taxhound Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:57 am
This one of the soon to be many good programs that will have to be cut do to inept state leadership that has left Illinois worse than broke. I think it’s a good program everyone benefits from well educated students it doesn’t matter public or private schools. However we cannot afford the program at this time so it gets cut. I love steak but if I can only afford hamburger I order the hamburger and don’t put steak on the credit card thinking I’ll pay for it later.
Comment by Fed up Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:57 am
I agree with Cincinnatus. Attach the funding directly to the child and let the parents choose an appropriate education for their child.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:58 am
No, they should not be excluded.
Archdiocese schools in particular operate on a razor thin budget and are mostly attended by working class families who have worked hard and sacrificed to scrap together the money for an alternative to CPS.
And remember, those families are still paying into the public system despite not taking advantage of it. If every one of the Archdiocese schools closed down tomorrow, CPS would be SCREWED. Maybe cutting them some slack isn’t terribly out of line?
Comment by grand old partisan Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:03 am
Why do those who chose the private option want taxpayers to shell out more money in order to subsidize their decision? Yes, the privite option people do pay taxes but they did make the decision to go private. I pay taxes, too, and don’t have kids in school.
Comment by Deep South Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:07 am
I, too, agree with Cincinnatus. Funding should go to the child, not the school. Vouchers!
Comment by dupage dan Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:14 am
- Deep South - Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:07 am:
“Why do those who chose the private option want taxpayers to shell out more money in order to subsidize their decision?”
Why are parents forced to support a failed system with their tax dollars?
I would make vouchers means tested (along with Social Security and Medicare), even though I don’t normally support laws that favor any group of another.
Comment by Cincinnatus Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:23 am
I think they should be included. As long as the text books are not religous, which I assume is the case. What diffence where a kid is being schooled at? The benefit is to the kid whether at private or public. Even home schooled kids should have the same benefit.
Comment by Been There Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:29 am
Wow Cinci,
Means testing of Social Security and Medicare? That’s pretty radical coming from a conservative like you. Do you think you can convince Boehner and Ryan to get it done? Because I’d love it for the Dems to win back the House next year, and that would pretty much seal the deal.
Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:30 am
While the private vs public debate continues let me remind everyone of a few points.
First, your tax bill does not come close to the cost of truly educating your child (like most gov. services); therefore continuing to pay without kids in school is like buying your house and car and making payments over time.
Second, what facts make it a failed system? Does it need some work…absolutely, but in no other country do we educate so many and allow choice in what one wants offered or is allowed to study.
Finally, at some point we must realize that quality education is a benefit to ALL of our citizens, not just the few. Improved support and quality in the system makes our state a more desirable place to live.
Comment by doubled Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:37 am
This program has not been funded for the past two or three years. Another example of a program that won’t die but the State should not be funding this for either public or private schools. If you need new textbooks, figure out a way that your group can get them.
Comment by bourbonrich Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:45 am
- Why are parents forced to support a failed system with their tax dollars? -
You mean the failed system that apparently got you through a top notch engineering graduate program? Or the one that educates one of the most productive workforces in the world? Sure, Chicago public schools have some problems, but you think taking even more money out of their budgets is a solution?
Comment by Small Town Liberal Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:45 am
Yes, this is one program that can be eliminated. Another example of entanglement of government w/ religion, though there may be a few non-religious schools the benefit. The purpose of all such programs is to provide state support to religious schools. All the claims about relieving burdens on public schools and school choice, etc., are excuses to avoid taking responsibility for public schools and actively participating to make them better. The only guaranteed ingredient for public school improvement is active parent involvement.
Comment by D.P. Gumby Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:57 am
== “Why do those who chose the private option want taxpayers to shell out more money in order to subsidize their decision?” ==
Huh?!?! That might make sense if anyone was advocating that this program be available only to private schools, but that’s not what anyone is saying. Taxpayers are going to help provide books for these students either way, so how is this ‘subsidizing’ anyone’s decision??
Comment by grand old partisan Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:02 pm
STL,
Like it or not, I might be able to make a strong argument that the public school system 40 years ago was significantly different than the one today…
Comment by Cincinnatus Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:06 pm
What’s a book? Buy every kid an ipad in Kindergarten and eliminate the arrogance and ignorance of the text book industry. And NO WAY should private schools participate in Public Programs. Pick a lane.
Comment by Get with the times. Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:10 pm
If the state could afford this program all schools should be included but, there should be a means test. That being said, with public schools are laying off teachers because the state owes them millions of dollars, this program should be eliminated.
Comment by JellyBean Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:14 pm
This funding benefits all students and all property tax payers. Yes, it helps support private schools just like it supports public schools. State aid for education is state aid for education, no matter whether the school is private or public. My children and grandchildren are all public school students- I thank those parents who pay their school taxes, and then allow that money to be used to pay for my kids.
Comment by Downstate Commissioner Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:16 pm
@grand old partisan - well played. Well played indeed.
Comment by GetOverIt Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:17 pm
Just don’t pay for the religious books. Perhaps pay at a 75-85% rate as money saved would likely go to these areas.
Perhaps if the local school is failing, then yes, use the program as it is a state of emergency in many of these public schools. Have some kind of test that determines if a school qualifies.
Comment by Wumpus Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:26 pm
Those who take the public option seem to want to have their cake and eat it, too. You’ve opted out of the public system…but yet you want the benefits of that system. As they say here in the Deep South, “That dog don’t hunt.”
Comment by Deep South Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:51 pm
I don’t think this program should be available to either public or private schools. The state simply can’t afford it. If schools want new books, they can funds raise or appeal to foundations.
Comment by cermak_rd Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:54 pm
No, because when the school system in your area is so bad and public schools are not an option for your child to thrive and receive a top rate education- private school should receive text book funding. I pay for my kids to go to public and private school, I should be able to at least be able to see some of that money I am paying in taxes actually be used for my children-in the way of textbooks. The text book program should be bases on the individual not the school, regardless of its affiliation.
Comment by OLOLMOM Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:57 pm
GOP,
Actually, not so. You need to read the question. The question asked whether the program should include private schools.
With regard to vouchers: Very nice, but not the law now. I understand that some people want sweeping change, but that is not what the question asked.
However, since people have brought up vouchers, I wonder if those same people would support a substantial tax increase to support them. Currently public schools are run on the amounts available. If you are going to provide vounchers, than the students already enrolled in private schools are going to use them. That means the pool of money for public schools just went down, without losing a single student. Ready to increase taxes to make up the difference?
Comment by Jasper Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 12:59 pm
=Those who take the public option seem to want to have their cake and eat it, too. You’ve opted out of the public system…but yet you want the benefits of that system. As they say here in the Deep South, “That dog don’t hunt.”=
You obviously do not live in Chicago. Option is not what many families face. It is a huge sacrifice to send our kids to private schools. As said earlier, if we all sent our kids to public schools, the system would be SCREWED.
Comment by Because I say so Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 1:40 pm
- I might be able to make a strong argument that the public school system 40 years ago was significantly different than the one today… -
Wait, were there vouchers back then? Or was there a more robust middle class that provided more adequate funding to schools? I can’t remember which was the case.
Comment by Small Town Liberal Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 2:00 pm
STL,
Always strawmen with you, huh?
Comment by Cincinnatus Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 2:19 pm
STL, I don’t remember vouchers. I also do not remember superintendents retiring with a 200K plus pension! However, I do remember getting a few whacks on my bottom when I was misbehaving!
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 2:24 pm
No, families that send their kids to private and parochial schools pay taxes for public education just like anyone else, and as a result they deserve access to the same programs available to students that go to public schools, just like how private school students have access to public school busing. If anything, families that send their kids to private and parochial schools are helping out the public school system by still paying into it but drawing very, very little out of it.
Comment by TJ Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 2:29 pm
@Because I Say So (10:38): “Not only have I paid to send my own children to private school, my choice, but I also pay for your children to attend public school.”
@OLOLMOM (12:57): “I pay for my kids to go to public and private school, I should be able to at least be able to see some of that money I am paying in taxes actually be used for my children-in the way of textbooks.”
I’ve heard variations on this argument for years - people feeling cheated because their tax dollars go to pay for another child’s schooling - and it’s always struck me as odd. Personally, I see all sorts of inequalities in our current system - inequalities that outweigh parents paying for public schools while choosing to send their kids to private schools. For example:
* Childless couples help pay for public education, but see no direct benefit from it.
* Elderly couples help pay for public education, but see no direct benefit from it. (Grandkids not included.)
* Couples with expensive houses have higher property tax bills than couples with modest houses (in the same district), yet receive the exact same educational benefit.
* Couple with numerous children occupy more slots in public schools, but are not required to pay higher tax rates than couples with one child occupying a single slot.
It’s reasonable for people to expect a strong return on their investment, but not everybody can receive a level of government service commensurate with their tax bill. In fact, there’s a word for people, like myself, who receive far less in benefits (largely education, health care, and human services) than we pay out in taxes, and that word is lucky.
Comment by Edge of the 14th Ward Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 2:34 pm
@STL 11;45am,
=You mean the failed system that apparently got you through a top notch engineering graduate program? Or the one that educates one of the most productive workforces in the world?=
So, STL, are you saying that Cinci got thru graduate school soley because of public schools? I’m sure you can agree there are more variables involved than just that one, no? It might be possible that Cinci’s parents may have had a lot to do with how well he did in school - as much so or more than the teachers and the curriculum - substantiated by much educational research. If the public schools were as good as you suggest from that comment we would see a much higher percentage of young folk graduating from college, I think. I am also sure you are aware of the higher levels of knowledge of the sciences, as well as geography that are enjoyed by students in many other countries. We are constantly bombarded with these articles in newspapers about how ignorant we Americans are of our own country, let alone others. As far as productivity is concerned, I fear many of those industries don’t require employees with high college levels of education to move the widgets down the assembly line. Having once been an assembly line worker I can tell you that speed and accuracy have little to do with what one learns from public school.
Comment by dupage dan Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 2:37 pm
The textbook loan program provided secular textbooks (not money) to schools. The majority of schools who used the program were public schools. Private schools also had access to the books. The IL Constitution says educational development of ALL persons is a goal of the people. Since we all benefit from an educated workforce, I would say yes, private schools should have access to state programs like this.
Comment by Pundeete Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 2:50 pm
- Always strawmen with you, huh? -
Yes Cinci, I’m the king of the strawmen. Maybe you could just back up your claim that the public education system is a failed system and that vouchers are a solution. Or are those just words I’m putting in your mouth?
Comment by Small Town Liberal Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 2:51 pm
- So, STL, are you saying that Cinci got thru graduate school soley because of public schools? -
Nope, just wondering what the definition of a failed system is.
Comment by Small Town Liberal Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 2:53 pm
Jasper, Deep South, 14th Ward, et al:
Yes, private and parochial school families they made a decision to “opt out” of the public system. And yes, they do so out of their own self interests. But the simple question remains: what would CPS do if the archdiocese closed all of its schools tomorrow?? They’d have a flood of new kids to educate without any new cash coming in. So either the system would become even more overcrowded and dysfunctional than it already is, or the city would have to substantially increase taxes to build more classrooms and hire more staff.
Regardless of why they choose to do so, when families decide to opt out helps the public system and taxpayers. So again, maybe helping them out with a book loan program isn’t terribly out of line.
Comment by grand old partisan Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 3:05 pm
Stare hard at this report and tell me we are getting bang for the buck.
“Student achievement has stagnated or fallen in most subjects since 1970, with the largest and most thoroughly established decline occurring in basic literacy. That is the verdict of the five most reliable sources of evidence: the National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP), the International Evaluation of Education Achievement (IEA), the Young Adult Literacy Survey (YALS), the National Adult Literacy Survey (NALS), and the International Adult Literacy Survey (IALS).”
From here.
Comment by Cincinnatus Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 3:36 pm
Cinci - You’re really trying to pass off a piece found on a pro-voucher website, which is an excerpt of a book written by a member of the Cato Institute, as an unbiased source? Do you even try these days?
Comment by Small Town Liberal Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 3:44 pm
Private schools should not get the textbooks. Private schools are already tax exempt and exempt from real estate taxes.
When you can afford to send your child to a private school, you can afford more than the children going to public schools, as far as school supplies and everything else a child needs to attend school. In General Private school children’s parents are better off finacially.
Private schools seem to have more fund raisers etc. Especially the ones in Chicago, most if not all of Bingo, Vegas Night, Beer Garden events etc. go towards the parochial school associated, especially with a church.
There seems to be a lot more parent involvement, maybe because the Mom (or Dad) only works part time while the other parent works full time.
Most kids in public school have two full time working parents, and then some (even a part time job on top of that)
Comment by 3rd Generation Chicago Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 3:52 pm
grand old partisan@ 3:05
But the simple question remains: what would CPS do if the archdiocese closed all of its schools tomorrow?? They’d have a flood of new kids to educate
These families would move out of town in a heartbeat if they are not city workers.
Comment by 3rd Generation Chicago Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 3:59 pm
STL,
Perhaps you would like to counter with your Huffington Post arguments. Can you find flaws with the data, or are you just using wishful thinking?
How about the ISBE report, think we are getting twice the education (since we are at about twice the price in 10 years). Can’t use class size as an argument either, since it has dropped in the past 10 years.
Your only “contributions” to any issue are badmouthing people intentions, establishing strawmen, using ad hominem attacks and otherwise obfuscating people’s points.
Comment by Cincinnatus Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 4:03 pm
3rd Generation: Making the generalization that all private school families have greater financial ability than their public school counterparts is false. Most families make a big sacrifice to send their kids to a private school, including both parents working. Those fundraisers you refer to are to keep their doors open (and to buy books for the kids).
Comment by Pundeete Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 4:04 pm
- Your only “contributions” to any issue are badmouthing people intentions, establishing strawmen, using ad hominem attacks and otherwise obfuscating people’s points. -
Got any examples? The NCES data easily available at their website indicates that average reading, math, and science scores haven’t changed much at all since 1970. Also, I wasn’t the one who claimed the public education system had failed, you were.
Comment by Small Town Liberal Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 4:22 pm
OK, time to move along. Enuf with the arguing. You’ve answered the question. Give others a chance.
(plane delayed four hours)
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 4:36 pm
Public schools had their textbook funding cut, too, we’re also doing without. Since many public schools have high populations of students at the poverty level or below, we can’t ask that parents make up these costs, many are exempt. So, don’t tell me only private schools and students are suffering.
Comment by Wensicia Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 4:37 pm
I hate the vouchers arguments. What happens to the children who are refused admittance to *any* private school, or whose parents still can’t afford private even with a voucher? You’re basically writing off thousands of children who would be trapped in the underfunded public schools.
Comment by Cheryl44 Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 4:47 pm
Cheryl44,
In a proper voucher program, folks can still choose the public schools - it’s up to the school to compete for the vouchers. For those parents who aren’t motivated enough to work on their childrens’ education there will still be major problems. That is a core issue that we grapple with right now. For those parents who are engaged and determined to have their children educated - they are already working hard towards that goal everyday. With all the resources they can muster. Parents who assume that the schools will handle everything and who are not engaged - they present the most challenge since the schools can’t do it all - and neither can the students. Frankly, any system would work well if the parents were truly engaged - the reasons they aren’t are another subject for another day.
Comment by dupage dan Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 5:02 pm
But, what about Special Ed students, DD? Private schools don’t have the capability to serve these students, neither do they want them. Most cherry pick the smartest and well-behaved students for their schools. Parents can’t be faulted for chidren with learning and physical disabilities.
Comment by Wensicia Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 5:12 pm
I would eliminate it. I would also eliminate MAP grants for students who attend private schools. Over 50% of MAP funds go to the private schools.
Comment by siuprof Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 5:19 pm
– We are constantly bombarded with these articles in newspapers about how ignorant we Americans are of our own country, let alone others. As far as productivity is concerned, I fear many of those industries don’t require employees with high college levels of education to move the widgets down the as!
sembly line. Having once been an assembly line worker I can tell you that speed and accuracy have little to do with what one learns from public school.–
DD, do you really believe the bogus hype that Americans are less productive and dumber than the rest of the world?
Does anything in your real-life experience support that?
Why are we then, by far, and in a short period of time, and for a long time, the largest economy, the most powerful military force and the unquestioned beacon for freedom and liberty in the history of the world?
Green stamps?
If you want to talk only about manufacturing here in 2011 (there’s some other stuff going on), the productivity of American labor, technology and capital is the envy of the world. There’s no debate about that, anywhere. Higher productivity and humane labor conditions, however, mean fewer jobs.
As far as education goes, the American, optimistic, fraternal idea is to keep the door open for anyone who can hold down a chair as long as they can. Very egalitarian, very democratic, they get as smart as they can, when they can. That’s money spent so our citizens can advance individually as much as they can — liberty — not to hold down some dreary muscle-memory job.
They don’t roll that way anywhere else in the world. Even in the wealthiest European democracies, they’ll test you out of general education in 8th grade. If you don’t cut the mustard, they send you to practical school, they call it.
The biggest dummies in the United States have the opportunities — what a glorious word, the key to the whole proposition — to keep on going and make the most of what they have when they can handle it.
Think that might effect test scores?
The best and brightest all over the world will do anything to break into our university system, because they don’t have the same opportunities at home. Meanwhile, this country was built on the hardest-working people in the world who would leave everything behind to do anything for a chance to make a buck here.
A lot of you pessimists bad-mouthing contemporary America think you were born on third base and hit a triple. Let me disabuse you of that notion. The American Dream is alive, it’s right now, and don’t you forget it.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 5:55 pm
This is an issue of equal rights. The textbook program should rightfully be available to all families in Illinois with school-aged children. To deny it to a certain segment of the population would be discriminatory. Some commentators may say that private school families choose to opt out of the public system and therefore should not have equal access as public school families. However, by that logic, then families that opt out of public schools should also be denied the ability to pay taxes. Unless private school families are able to opt out of the entire system, then you have no logical argument to make where you can say they should be denied access to a state service. The reality is, as I have shown, opposition to this program is not based in logic. It is in fact, based solely in hate.
Comment by anon Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 5:56 pm
I graduated High School three years ago. I feel like the school system failed me.
Take a look at the requirements to graduate high school, specifically how much we want our children to know about government. We get these asinine tests that ask us questions like, “How many politicians are in the Illinois House of Representatives?” or “What is the 3rd amendment to the Constitution?” Now, these are both things that are good to know. But there’s very little substance behind it. You write down the answer you memorized that the teacher told you. There’s no talk of how the leaders of the General Assembly hold most of the power. There’s no talk of how the Governor’s extensive veto powers might be good or bad. It’s all numbers and names. It’s a memorization quiz. It’s not teaching our children how to be good citizens. It’s not teaching children how to think critically about the world they live in.
Comment by Timmeh Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 6:16 pm
–I graduated High School three years ago. I feel like the school system failed me.–
Shake it off, son. You’re way too young to be that pessimistic.
You have too many opportunities in front of you. If you can read, and have a free library card, there’s nothing holding you back in your education.
Buck up and go for it, cousin, while (I’m assuming) you don’t have the responsibilities of home and family. You’ve got the world by the tail.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 6:29 pm
==You have too many opportunities in front of you. If you can read, and have a free library card, there’s nothing holding you back in your education.==
It’s funny you should say that; due to the way the best local library in my area redistricted, I would need to go to the township library nearby, buy a $50 library card (because I don’t live inside their township and pay taxes to their library) and then use that card at the better library.
But, overall, during High School I felt like I was mostly drifting along. I was learning new things, sure, but I wasn’t challenged in the way that I should have been. My friends, many of which have also gone on to college and are looking like they’re going to be successful in what they are doing, feel the same way.
Comment by Timmeh Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 6:44 pm
Cincy, I’m not sure what you think happened post-1970. But I can assure that the renaissance that occurred to reach that point wasn’t on the cheap, given the post-war Progressive explosion in education, housing, rights.
Consider, from a generation earlier, this survey of the average GI draftee.
“The average GI was nearly 26-years- old in 1944…He stood five feet eight inches and weighed 144 pounds….Four out of ten white, but fewer than two out of ten black draftees had finished high school. Almost a third of whites and more than half the black recruits had no education beyond grade school. Overall, the statiscally average GI had completed one year of high school, three full years more than education than the average Doughboy of 1917.”
From “Freedom from Fear: The American People in Depression and War, 1929-1945,: David M. Kennedy, The Oxford History of the United States.
Magnificent, comprehensive, immensely readable series on our incredible, short history.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 6:51 pm
Timmeh, a $50 library card is outrageous and indefensible in a free society. You have American history plus everyone from Benjamin Franklin to Barbara and Laura Bush on your side there.
You and your crew might have been shortchanged in your high school education, but I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts that you have more brains, energy, insight and guts than the short-sighted, bonehead powers-that-be in your community who instituted a $50 library fee.
You’re looking for a worthy challenge? Here’s one: Organize, agitate, hustle and roll those fools like Sherman through Georgia. It’s your world now, too, son, don’t accept any stuff that you know is wrong. Policy is made by those who show up. Knock ‘em silly, brother.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 7:08 pm
Absolutely Not. Parents who send their kids to parocial schools made that choice. I do not want my tax dollars going for religious studies
Comment by lady Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 7:35 pm
A couple things:
#1: Private schools and parochial schools are there because of inadequacies in the public school program. Part of these inadequacies are due to religious reasons: Catholic families may feel that the religious beliefs of their children may be threatened in the public school system. I find this to be a legitimate fear. There have been many political pushes to try to get more religion into public schools. The push has largely been from Protestant groups. I think the above poster could sympathize with Catholic families in this respect; I certainly do.
#2: Families who send their children to private schools do so primarily from their own money. They may still pay taxes to public schools and thus are carrying a share of the burden of the public school system. ~As far as I know~, there are no state voucher programs/tax breaks for these families. (Can anyone confirm?)
#3: The state program offers money specifically for books. I think that if we were in a system where all schools were private, that the state would have a similar program. Furthermore, these kinds of programs have already been considered constitutional at the federal level.
#4: The state has stated directed in the Illinois Constitution that they are responsible for the education of Illinois’s youth.
Given all that, I think that some millions of dollars for some books isn’t a major deal. It seems a bit nitpicky to me to cut it out just for private/parochial schools.
Comment by Timmeh Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 9:06 pm
Your tax dollars go to the purchase of textbooks for all students in the State of the Illinois. They do not pay for religious studies. You have been misinformed.
Comment by to lady Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 9:07 pm
I agree with “get with the times.” Its time to eliminate textbooks period. How often does math change?
Comment by vote quimby! Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 10:03 pm
Timmeh
Parochial schools exist even when the public schools are good. Some religions require parents to use the parochial schools, if at all possible.
End the program … the private school, secular or parochial, having land off the tax rolls is subsidy enough.
Comment by Smitty Irving Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:19 pm
wordslinger,
I am not to sure what happened post 70’s. Maybe it was streaking,
I look at it this way, you are probably correct that it was an expensive proposition (probably nobody noticed because the economy was cruising post-WW II), but I think we may have reached a saturation point at about the 70’s where the forces (time, costs, money, curriculum, politics, and many others) were in equilibrium. Since then, we have been throwing tons of money to achieve very little more (think a hyperbolic function). No matter how much more time, effort and money we devote to the current system, we can never achieve the ideal, and indeed we may be actually harming the system.
Comment by Cincinnatus Wednesday, Mar 23, 11 @ 11:22 pm