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* Cardinal George’s initial reaction Friday to a meeting between the bishops and Gov. Pat Quinn…
“It was a nice meeting, the bishops of Illinois talking to the governor, who is a member of our church, but it was a pastoral meeting,” George said after the encounter. “We shared some concerns on both sides. It was a friendly and an open meeting. But it was pastoral, so it was on faith and conscience and the way in which the Church engages in public life for the common good.”
* Early Saturday afternoon, though, Abdon Pallasch at the Chicago Sun-Times ran this item…
Gov. Pat Quinn said Saturday that he had a productive meeting with Cardinal George and nine other Catholic bishops from around Illinois Friday. There was only “a little bit” of talk of Quinn¹s position in favor of abortion rights and of the gay rights law that has been interpreted to mean Catholic Charities must get out of the adoption business because it won’t work with gay couples, Quinn said.
Most of the two-hour meeting focused on where Quinn and the bishops can work together to fight poverty, Quinn said. “A lot of the discussion was how we could work together to fight poverty; help the people who are less fortunate and need a helping hand,” Quinn said as he left a Christmas toy give-away on the Far South Side.
Did the bishops and Quinn discuss any ideas for allowing the church to continue its role in helping get children adopted? Quinn said the church has to partner with agencies that will work with gay couples. […]
But the dialogue on that issue was “brief,” Quinn said. “There wasn’t a long discussion about that.” […]
Again, he emphasized there was just “a little bit” of discussion on abortion during the two-hour meeting Friday at the Union League Club.
* Not long afterward, this article appeared online…
According to confidential sources of the Rainbow Sash Movement the meeting was full of tension. Cardinal George calmly told the Governor that it was his hope that the Governor would no longer speak out as a public Catholic unless he is in agreement with the Bishops on controversial issues. The Governor sat quietly and respectfully listened to Cardinal George, but then told the Cardinal that he was the Governor of all the people of Illinois, and that he will speak out for all the people of Illinois and not just the Catholic position.
* There’s no link to the first Sun-Times story posted above because it was taken down later in the day and replaced it with a new one. The bishops were not happy…
Gov. Pat Quinn apparently did not understand that when he met with Illinois’ Catholic bishops Friday, they were taking him out to the woodshed. […]
But after reading Quinn’s comments posted on the Sun-Times website Saturday, the bishops that met with Quinn issued a written statement saying Quinn characterized the meeting wrong: The primary purpose of the sit-down, they said, was to admonish the governor for using his Catholic up-bringing to justify views that they say aren’t supported by the church. It was the second time in the past two months the bishops have issued a statement blasting the Catholic governor.
“We share the Governor’s concern for the poor,” they wrote. “From our point of view, however, this was a meeting between pastors and a member of the Church to discuss the principles of faith, not the works of faith. On several occasions, the Governor has referred to his Catholic conscience and faith as the justification for certain political decisions.”
The letter continued: “As Catholic pastors, we wanted to remind the Governor that conscience, while always free, is properly formed in harmony with the tradition of the Church, as defined by Scripture and authentic teaching authority. A personal conscience that is not consistent with authentic Catholic teaching is not a Catholic conscience. The Catholic faith cannot be used to justify positions contrary to the faith itself. It is a matter of personal integrity for people who call themselves Catholic to act in a manner that is consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church.”
The bishops said they were particularly concerned about Quinn’s influence on others “since he holds a highly visible and influential position.”
The letter concluded: “This concern on our part, as pastors of the Church, was the fundamental and primary topic of our conversation with Governor Quinn.”
* I think Neil Steinberg may be drawing the wrong conclusion here…
If at election time I were to say, “You can’t vote for Pat Quinn — he’s a Catholic and will be bullied into strictly following church doctrine” — I’d be accused of bias and rightly so. Yet the cardinal is trying to do exactly that, to exercise an authority over public life he does not and should not possess.
Quinn attended 13 years of Catholic school — the church already had its chance to mold him. Now he is 63 and an adult. It is Quinn, and not Cardinal George, who gets to decide how his faith influences his life. I’m sorry to be the one to deliver the news.
This is far more about Quinn publicly saying that his Catholic faith is influencing his decisions than about the bishops whacking him over making decisions contrary to that faith.
As I’ve noted before, if Quinn accepted an endorsement from, say, the pro-choice Personal PAC and then used that endorsement to justify signing an anti-abortion bill into law, Personal PAC would be outraged and rightly so. This latest uproar isn’t much different.
And I say this, by the way, as someone who is not a Catholic and never was. Groups that politicians associate with have a right to defend themselves when politicians use them to justify a position that the groups oppose. It’s really as simple as that.
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 9:02 am
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You’ve got it right Rich. Sounds like they simply said to Quinn “Don’t say you’re relying on your Catholic conscience as the basis for justifying acts contrary to Catholic Doctrine”. While his conscience may have guided his actions, it certainly wasn’t the Catholic portion thereof that was being exercised at the time.
Comment by PublicServant Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 9:29 am
Excellent analysis. The bishops and Quinn entered and exited the meeting through two different doors. Both heard and remembered much more of their own agenda items, than what the other party actually said.
Comment by walkinfool Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 9:33 am
I’d like to know the specific statements Gov. Quinn has made where he stated his Catholic faith influenced a policy decision.
I think Neil Steinberg hit the nail on its head. This is 21st century America, now Medieval Europe. If Quinn feels that his Catholic upbringing led him to a certain position who are, or who are the Bishops, to question that? Now, if Quinn said - I support X position because that is the position of the Catholic church (when indeed it is not) THEN I could see the Bishops’ position justified… but he isn’t saying that. Maybe the Bishops’ should realize that if they admonished every Catholic that didn’t agree with them on controversial topics they would have many less people labeling themselves Catholic.
Comment by Anonimo Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 9:34 am
Most believe the bishops ought to be run of town just like the mopes at Penn State.
There is zero room for their conduct and operation.
People wring their hands about public corruption and then let this crew wander the landscape making bold pronouncements and failing every accountability test under the sun.
We are sorry but seperation of church and state means just that
Comment by CircularFiringSquad Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 9:57 am
- While his conscience may have guided his actions, it certainly wasn’t the Catholic portion thereof that was being exercised at the time. -
Who are you to make that call?
- conscience, while always free, is properly formed in harmony with the tradition of the Church, as defined by Scripture and authentic teaching authority. -
The bishops may feel this way, but since we live in the United States the governor has the right to come to his own conclusions and speak about them however he wants. The bishops certainly have the right to punish him within the church as they please, but this whining that Quinn can’t talk about how his beliefs influence his conscience is just that, whining.
Comment by Small Town Liberal Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 9:57 am
Based on polling which shows that the majority of American Catholics support equal rights for gay Americans, far more than any other religious group, it is only logical to conclude that the teachings of the Catholic faith are responsible, whether the bishops like it or not.
Perhaps if Jesus hadnt placed so much emphasis on “do unto others…” and “love thy neighbor…” Catholics would be less confused.
But what do I know…I’m a Methodist and find games of chance mostly harmless, despite my Methodist upbringing.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 10:06 am
It is unfortunate that the Bishops only see fit to take politicians to the “woodshed” over matters of women and gay rights.
The Church has long standing teachings on Social Justice which include the right for labor to organize and that health care is a human right. Yet the Bishops never come down hard on politicians that vote to disenfranchise labor or reduce or eliminate Medicaid and Medicare. As a Catholic it is hard to take them seriously when they pick and choose the issues they wish to ignore in their “Catholic Conscience”.
Comment by Observer of the State Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 10:06 am
–Groups that politicians associate with have a right to defend themselves when politicians use them to justify a position that the groups oppose. It’s really as simple as that.–
It certainly is not as simple as that.
The Catholic Church is not a “group” that Quinn “associates” with. Quinn is a Catholic blessed with a brain and a conscience that were formed by his Catholic upbringing, and is a part of his church’s ongoing evolution.
Catholic “truth” has evolved time and time again at the whims of different generations of church office holders. There have always been plenty of disagreements among Catholics, some of them bloody.
The pope wasn’t always infallible. Priests could marry and have children. Bruno was burned at the stake for positing that the Earth wasn’t the center of the universe (was he a bad Catholic?).
Quinn decides what forms his Catholic conscience, and that’s between himself and his creator.
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 10:08 am
I didn’t make that call STL, the Bishops did. As a public figure, when Quinn uses the phrase “Catholic Conscience” to describe why he feels the way he does concerning issues that go against Catholic teaching, the Bishops simply wanted to make sure that Quinn wasn’t confusing people as to what Catholic Teaching was in relation to those issues. The issue isn’t whether Quinn’s conscience wasn’t to a great extent, formed by his years in Catholic institutions, but, whether, as a public figure, he was potentially confusing people as to the Catholic Church’s position on the issues when he used that phrasing. Far from whining, they were publically trying to “protect the brand” and clarify that when Quinn acted, he was not in conformity with the Catholic teachings.
Comment by PublicServant Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 10:22 am
PQ-2, Cardinal and Bishops-0 so far.
Comment by steve schnorf Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 11:10 am
even if they are referring to the Church of England, one cannot help but think of this clip when referring to The Bishop, always missing real danger. you just have to laugh when watching real bishops in action….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDnE-5lD7w8
Comment by amalia Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 11:22 am
Yea, raised Catholic here and while the bishops form the hierarchy, they do not speak for me on a myriad issues. Catholicism is a religion based in large part on the teachings of one Jesus Christ. While there have been many Catholics since, including Thomas Merton and John XXIII that have added to the rich tradition, not every one of us chooses to define faith as strict adherence to political talking points of the institution. “Give Caesar’s coin to Caesar,” and try making abortion and gay adoption a personal issue for your own congregation instead of trying to legislate a bigoted point of view. Maybe by speaking to your own congregation instead of on behalf of them, you’ll find out your proposed legislation is unsafe and bigoted.
And maybe then the hierarchy will stop marginalizing Catholics in general and making us look like dogmatic drones. Amazing that all the great workers at Catholic adoption agencies are going to be out of work because some old men don’t want them working with gay couples. Amazing that Catholic grade schools with incredible teachers aren’t churning out men and women leaders of tomorrow because of resource allocation that favors grinding axes.
Let Catholics speak for ourselves, and concern yourself as the hierarchy with making the machine work. Then you might just find there are more people proud of our faith than not.
Comment by JBilla Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 11:39 am
Boy, the bishops have grabbed the wrong end of the stick here. They should be delighted that PQ is so open and proud about his Catholic conscience and heritage, and that he draws a straight-line connection between caring for the poor, sick and downtrodden and his own Catholic education and upbringing.
The bishops don’t agree with the Governor on gay rights and abortion? Okay, fine. Then use the Governor’s vocal support for those issues as a news peg to get their opposition on the record. That way, they can take credit for the many great policies that spring from the Governor’s “Catholic conscience,” and still make sure that the faithful realize the Catholic church is anti-abortion. (Because, yeah, we were a little unclear on that one…)
Geez, with so many negative things happening in the Church, they should be so happy to see a high-profile, unindicted Illinois politician standing up and saying he’s still proud to be Catholic.
I quote my beloved St. Teresa de Avila, who said in a similar situation (although speaking directly to God): “If this is the way you treat your friends, no wonder you have so few!”
Go in peace. The rant is ended.
Comment by soccermom Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 12:04 pm
I don’t believe the Bishops were trying to speak for Quinn, and you can believe what you want, but the church isn’t a democracy. There aren’t referenda that the pope must adhere to if approved by a majority of Catholics. You really aren’t supposed to pick and choose which Catholic teachings you like, and which ones you don’t. You, of course can, and they’ll pray for you. The church does change over time on certain issues, but it’s glacial change, which is sometimes good, and sometimes bad. You don’t like the church’s position on certain issues? Fine. But don’t blame the Bishops for making sure to publicly correct a public figure when they feel he may have been causing confusion on the official church position.
Comment by PublicServant Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 12:09 pm
Rich - Thanks for summing up a delicate situation with such clarity and accuracy. If Personal PAC (or any other organization) found themselves in a similar scenario, they would quite correctly raise a *storm.
Practically speaking, the majority of such entities would eventually expel from their ranks any member deliberately and so publicly misrepresenting their stances/beliefs, etc. If your school PTA group, local charity or even your employer establishes a policy and you repeatedly misrepresent their policies/stances/words to suit your own purposes in the media, they wouldn’t be very happy with you.
They likely would be even more frustrated/feel further disrespected if you then misrepresent the nature of a sit-down to address the issue.
Simple solution? Stop using your religion as rationale for your decisions in front of the tv cameras and journalists - especially if it’s an inaccurate protrayal of the beliefs to which that particular religion ascribes. Plain & simple.
Now, if only they truly WERE getting together to focus on new methods of cooperating to combat poverty. Can you imagine the good work that could be done? The actual difference they could make in people’s lives?
Now that would be something.
Comment by Shock & Awww(e) Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 12:26 pm
==This is far more about Quinn publicly saying that his Catholic faith is influencing his decisions than about the bishops whacking him over making decisions contrary to that faith.==
I disagree. I think it is exactly the latter that the Bishops are angry about. The Catholic Church (and I’m guessing any Church) never likes it when a member of that faith acts contrary to their “teachings.” That’s what annoys me about Churches in general, even my own. Nobody has a right to tell you how you reconcile your personal faith with God. Nobody is going to agree with any Church 100% of the time. If that is going to be the standard then every Church should just close their doors.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 12:48 pm
If the Church is saying you can’t say your religious experience guides your decisions unless those decisions follow Catholic doctrine, the Church is wrong.
Comment by Wensicia Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 1:18 pm
Man, this is getting testy. As you might imagine, I follow the news pretty carefully and I’ve NEVER heard Pat Quinn say anything where I thought he was stating or explaining the Church’s beliefs or policies, simply his own beliefs as a practicing member of that Church.
Comment by steve schnorf Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 1:32 pm
You know, I see alot of people here who weren’t in that room basing their conclusions on the writings of other people who weren’t in the room either.
Comment by Just Sayin' Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 1:39 pm
everytime I see this hoo-ha about the bishops vs. Pat Quinn, I am reminded of Monty Python’s skit “no one expected the Spanish Inquistion.” I was raised and schooled Catholic in the 1950s and 1960s, but it has always puzzled me how un-catholic the Catholic Church can be.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 2:19 pm
===simply his own beliefs as a practicing member of that Church.===
As usual Steve, I agree with you 100%. I think the difference here is that the bishops think Quinn is not a practicing member of the Church on certain issues. There’s a lot of nuance here, and I’m pretty much on Quinn’s side on this. But I’m also a Catholic, and I mis-practice my faith quite a bit too.
As someone else noted, the Roman Catholic Church isn’t a democracy. It doesn’t follow the wishes of its flock, and I don’t think it should. Its job is to lead its flock, not follow it.
But the Bishops are essentially forcing Quinn to choose whether to be a Governor or a Catholic. And I think that’s a false choice. He is going to be both as best he can, and he would benefit from priestly guidance and counsel more than with threats and public scorn.
But that’s just my opinion.
Comment by 47th Ward Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 3:02 pm
===But the Bishops are essentially forcing Quinn to choose whether to be a Governor or a Catholic.===
I don’t see that. They’re just demanding that he not use his Catholic faith to justify some of his official actions.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 3:05 pm
Fair point Rich. But Quinn believes his faith informs him as a person and as a leader. And the bishops’ problem is about abortion mostly, with a small part about civil unions. Yes, it makes me cringe sometimes when Quinn mentions his faith, but he also has a sworn duty to uphold the law. Abortions and civil unions are legal. So any Catholic Governor is going to run into this issue.
For some reason, I don’t think the Church would have a problem if Quinn invoked his faith when signing the repeal of the death penalty. And as Steve Schnorf pointed out, can anyone document Quinn taking an official position on an abortion related issue and invoking his Catholic faith? I think the Church is tying the two together more than the Governor.
Comment by 47th Ward Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 3:20 pm
===And as Steve Schnorf pointed out, can anyone document Quinn taking an official position on an abortion related issue and invoking his Catholic faith? ===
Took five seconds to find this one. Quinn at Personal PAC…
Quinn did not shy from his religion at Thursday’s luncheon where some $400,000 to $500,000 was raised to fund candidates who support abortion rights. Quinn even quoted the Bible in explaining why he agreed to present the award to Goodman, who now counsels rape victims.
“I think the essence of my faith is service,” Quinn said. “Service to others is the rent we pay for our place on God’s earth. Martin Luther King said everyone can be great because everyone can serve. … Jennie has found that ethic of service.”
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/8902583-418/quinn-gets-standing-ovation-at-abortion-rights-event-despite-protestors-outside.html
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 3:22 pm
Yes but…Jennie’s ethic of service was his point. On the other hand, this was spoken at Personal Pac, so I get that. But he was applauding the work of a woman who counsels victims of rape. Who has a problem with that?
But again, I get your point Rich.
Comment by 47th Ward Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 3:25 pm
Rich, “my faith” may well mean his personal faith, not his Catholic Church’s doctrine. But I don’t have a dog in this fight, and disarray among Catholics as to whether PQ is a good man does help we Rs, so I’m outa here.
Comment by steve schnorf Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 3:37 pm
“my faith” may well mean his personal faith,”
Exactly, does the Church own him because he’s Catholic? They believe he owes them complete loyalty. As such, can any Catholic serve in public office where he’s sworn to uphold laws the Church refuses to recognize? At the same time the Church can actively discriminate against those whom the law protects, while rebuking followers who refuse to do the same? This hypocrisy turns my stomach.
Comment by Wensicia Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 4:38 pm
“- While his conscience may have guided his actions, it certainly wasn’t the Catholic portion thereof that was being exercised at the time. -
Who are you to make that call?”
We are obviously being blessed with the presence of the Holy Father, albeit likely through a proxy.
‘course, ’til they sort out the disparity between their “conversations” with politicians regarding their views on abortion v. the death penalty, and homsexuality considering the overlay of protecting child molesters, maybe the Holy See sould focus their pleas for public consistency with doctrine inward.
Comment by Chris Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 4:47 pm
Is Quinn’s “personal faith” Roman Catholic or not? If it is not, stop identifying yourself as a Roman Catholic. If it is, then stop claiming your personal faith justifies positions that run contrary to Roman Catholic teaching. Talking about democracy, rights as Americans, etc. as some commentators do, is irrelevant. You can’t say your Catholic shaped conscience teaches you to support abortion rights. Rich is absolutely correct.
Comment by Napman Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 5:00 pm
===You can’t say your Catholic shaped conscience teaches you to support abortion rights. Rich is absolutely correct.===
Except Quinn has never said that. Ever.
Comment by 47th Ward Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 5:09 pm
As I’ve noted before, if Quinn accepted an endorsement from, say, the pro-choice Personal PAC and then used that endorsement to justify signing an anti-abortion bill into law, Personal PAC would be outraged and rightly so. This latest uproar isn’t much different.
==And I say this, by the way, as someone who is not a Catholic and never was. Groups that politicians associate with have a right to defend themselves when politicians use them to justify a position that the groups oppose. It’s really as simple as that==
Miller, many times you are 1,000 percent dead on, and this is one of them. I could not have said it more succinctly and precisely than you have.
Quinn wants it both ways: credit for far left liberalism on one hand, and credit for being a “faithful Catholic” on the other, using the latter to solidify his political standing with a rather significant religious voting bloc in this state.
Comment by Conservative Republican Monday, Dec 19, 11 @ 6:11 pm
Goodness knows, we can’t have conscience interfering with doctrine, can we?
Comment by Excessively Rabid Tuesday, Dec 20, 11 @ 8:04 am
Say that Pat Quinn joined the Elks Lodge, and decided to campaign as a member of the Benevolent Protective Order of the Elks. Not an officer, or Exalted Ruler, just an Elks member.
Then Quinn decides that he, as a member of the Elks, supports wearing a Mohawk, and coincidentally gets a $500,000 donation from the Barber’s Union. He then goes about campaigning that, though he is personally opposed to Mohawks, his conscience requires him to state that the Elks support Mohawks.
The Exalted Ruler of the Elks then says, No, the Elks don’t support your choice of hairstyle, and your conscience is in no way indicative of the Elks Lodge.
So Quinn conscience interferes with Elk Lodge doctrine, and no one would bat an eye, except to wonder why Quinn thinks he can set Elk’s Lodge rules.
Replace the Elks with the Catholic Church and you have the current situation, as Rich aptly states ‘Groups that politicians associate with have a right to defend themselves when politicians use them to justify a position that the groups oppose”
Comment by JP Tuesday, Dec 20, 11 @ 10:19 am