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* The National Rifle Association’s annual convention is this weekend in St. Louis. I’ve been thinking about heading down there and checking out the scene. The NRA’s website has a list of new products that will be showcased, including…

According to the NRA, that’s the Heizer DoubleTap tactical pocket pistol, “the smallest and lightest .45 ACP concealed carry on the market.”

* The Question: What, if any, restrictions should be put in place if Illinois makes it legal to carry a concealed handgun? Explain, please. Thanks.

posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:08 pm

Comments

Holds one bullet at a time and takes 30 seconds to reload.

Comment by Ahoy Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:20 pm
You must be sane.

Comment by Mouthy Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:20 pm
All persons who get a permit should have to qualify on the range with the firearm they are going to carry and the permit would name that firearm.

I don’t want to be around when someone who qualified with a .22 med length barrel revolver pulls out the Heizer DoubleTap tactical pocket pistol. Cause unless they have done a whole lot of practice they are not going to hit what they are aiming at, especially with the second shot.
I also don’t want that person pulling out a .357 magnum, a .44 magnum, or as one commenter in our local paper stated he would carry his .50 cal. nickel plated revolver. There aren’t a lot of weekend plinkers who are going to be real accurate with any of those. And they all do serious damage.

Comment by Irish Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:21 pm
I would like to see businesses of any kind being allowed to ban weapons. It should be up to the business owner. Clients can choose to go into the business or to avoid the business if they don’t like the ban, but it should be up to the owner.

Comment by Skeeter Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:25 pm
@Ahoy

I’ve got a gun that fits that description…..but my muzzeloader is nearly imposible to conceal.

Comment by TCB Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:27 pm
1. Legal citizen of Illinois.
2. Range training and testing required with centerfire pistol, preferably similar to the cancealed carry firearm of choice.
3. Classroom training and testing required.
4. Convicted felons not eligible (yes, that is redundant)
5. No OP against the applicant. Issuance of OP results in suspension of permit.

Comment by Motambe Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:29 pm
The typical non-felon, non-insane limits on the permit holder as on getting FOID cards, and perhaps a reasonable level of firearms training course time.

Comment by titan Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:30 pm
Elgible to purchase a firearm under existing laws.

2 hour training class with proficency exam at completion.

That’s it.

Comment by How Ironic Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:32 pm
Why re-invent the wheel? There are plenty of credible CC classes/programs that teach and assess people on their suitability for carrying a concealed weapon. The available evidence does not support the claim that allowing the carrying of a concealed weapon has unleashed berzerkers on the nation who shoot at anything that moves.

Comment by dupage dan Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:32 pm
Missouri’s law works fairly well. Essentially you have to have a course on firearm safety and handling which includes some fairly minimal and reasonable rules for hitting a target on the range.

Most of the other requirements are covered in Illinois through the FOID process so I would say add the training requirement to the basic FOID requirements and you’d have a reasonable law. Perhaps not do any reciprocation given the need for a FOID in Illinois or create a process to require reciprocation requires all the basic FOID requirements and conceal carry requirements be met by the issuing state or no reciprocation.

Comment by ArchPundit Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:35 pm
DD, I’m mostly an agnostic on this topic, but try telling Gabby Giffords that concealed carry laws have not unleashed crazoids on the public.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:35 pm
BTW, I am leery of such a weapon. I own a .45 ACP semi-auto handgun and even with the reduction in recoil it is a challenging weapon to wield. Only 2 shots? What’s the point?

Comment by dupage dan Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:35 pm
In order to be granted a concealed carry permit, the citizen must meet the following requirements:

1.) 21 years of age
2.) Have a FOID card
3.) Pass a gun safety course (which includes range time, as well as a proper training one when you can/cannot legally fire upon someone, when/where you can/cannot carry your weapon)

Eligible handguns .40 caliber, 38 special, .357 magnum, 9mm and .22 caliber

Comment by TCB Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:37 pm
Illinois drivers license, S.S. Number background
check. 48 hours hold till this is done.

Comment by mokenavince Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:38 pm
Irish, okay, but only if single permit allows multiple firearms at same cost. The carry pistol I would use is not the same one that I would carry in a vehicle: i.e. one small, very concealable; one larger and more accurate. The most comfortable to use (and therefore more accurate!)pistol I own is too large to carry concealed. Also, if I wanted to take the .22 somewhere, it would be nice to just lay it in the vehicle without having to unload it, or find a case.
Actually, while full concealed carry is desirable,I would be comfortable being able to just carry a loaded, uncased weapon in a vehicle.

Comment by downstate commissioner Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:39 pm
Plus everything TBC wants.

Comment by mokenavince Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:39 pm
@TCB

In Il you CANT own a pistol until you are 21 or older. Your first ‘rule’ is already in place.

And why limit the caliber to .40? and 357 magnum? Really? Both are more powerful than a .45.

Comment by How Ironic Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:41 pm
Adding to the training, age and general background requirements already enumerated…

Public facilities and private property owners have the right to restrict carry on their property (like the no-gun signs I see down in Arizona)

Also I would like a liability insurance requirement…

Comment by OneMan Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:42 pm
What mokenavince said except it should be DL or state-issued ID. Hey, everyone doesn’t drive.

Comment by Cheryl44 Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:45 pm
While I support concealed carry, I have no issue making the education/training component rigorous, including written testing and range proficiency testing. A violent felony free record seems more than reasonable as well. An umbrella insurance policy may make some sense if it’s not entirely prohibitive, but I don’t know.

Comment by Shemp Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:47 pm
TCB, what is the reason for limiting caliber? Lots of guns with other calibers are suitable for self-defense. Rule #1 of gunfighting is: Have a Gun!
A .25 auto is more reliable than a .22, and what about the .32 and .380 ACP, and the various other foreign power surplus calibers.
And you left out the .45 automatic? What’s the logic in that?

Comment by downstate commissioner Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:48 pm
Skeeter, I agree and feel similarly about smoking. Plus that way, I know who to rob, lol. But I do agree with your post.

Comment by Wumpus Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:49 pm
Rich Miller - did Rep. Giffords’s shooter have a concealed carry card? I seem to recall him as having had a fair amount of psych trouble in his past (such that he shouldn’t have had a CC card).

If he wasn’t a CC card holder, it is unfair to imply that CC is in any way at fault.

Comment by titan Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:50 pm
Restrictions? Private property owners who don’t want to associate with gun owners shouldn’t have to. Other than that, all adults who aren’t in jail should make their own choice if they want a gun or associate with those who want to carry a gun. How much gun training one should get should be left up to the individual.

Comment by Steve Bartin Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:53 pm
Sorry Rich, I got side tracked.
1. FOID card, which (in theory, at least)should cover the background checks, etc.
2. Course, including actual qualification with at least a medium-caliber gun. (While carrying a .22 or .25 should be permissible, a blanket permit shouldn’t be issued for qualifying with it).
There are several Utah and Florida-based courses which I believe should satisfy the course requirements.

Comment by downstate commissioner Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 1:55 pm
FOID card and a concealed carry class that includes some range time with both a revolver and semi-auto pistol to ensure a minimal level of proficiency.

If it is going to list a firearm, have it be inclusive. For example, if you take the class and qualify with a .357, then other “less powerful” firearms like a 9 mm or .38 or .22 are also included.

Comment by Retired Non-Union Guy Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:01 pm
I would like the CC course to have a section on how the laws of the state regulate the use of deadly force if it does not already have one.

I’m satisfied with FOID checks. Not convinced there needs to be a qualification with a specific weapon. There should be regular continuing updates of some sort to account for changes in the law.

Comment by Plutocrat03 Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:01 pm
Titan - @1:50 pm: - I doubt that he had a card but I do remember that at least one of the bystanders was carrying a weapon with a permit. They interviewed the guy and he stated that he did carry.
The only reason I bring this up is to illustrate that concealed carry is not going to prevent things like that massacre from happening.

Comment by Irish Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:10 pm
titan - I believe Jared Lee Loughner did have a conceal permit, but that has little to do with nothing. You don’t need a conceal permit to buy a gun, conceal it and go shoot someone..Ask any crook.

Comment by Cooper Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:11 pm
Legitimate background check and a strong class including range time. Standard prohibitions (schools, govt buildings etc.) and the ability for any business to ban it.

Very strict laws for violating. Automatic revocation for most violent crimes, domestic violence, etc.

And Rich, that Gabby Giffords example is pretty darn misguided…. Like having a CC permit would have made a difference in that lunatic’s mind… People who are crazy enough to do stuff like that don’t care about the law.

Comment by Anon Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:11 pm
- downstate commissioner - @ 1:39 pm - Most definitely. what I proposed was not a way to generate revenue but to try to ensure that the person had some experience with the actual weapon they were carrying. As you probably know there is a lot of difference in accuracy and handling dependent upon barrel length, weight, caliber, magnum or not, semi auto or revolver.

I would also add that the Macs should not be included. I have not paid attention lately I don’t know if they are still legal or not.

Comment by Irish Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:18 pm
I’m headed to St Louis tomorrow, Rich, if you want someone to help you cut through the marketing hype. I can’t stay for the weekend since I’m helping with the logistics of a pistol class on Saturday and Sunday.

HB 148 was the carry bill last year that was supported by many law enforcement agencies. Class component, live fire proficiency test and a background check. I can live with that.

Comment by Champaign Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:20 pm
Titan/Irish - in Az, no permit required.

Comment by Thoughts... Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:28 pm
How about a $1 million liability policy just in case an armed citizen takes out an armed robber but also blows away some innocent schmo walking down the street in the process?

Comment by Whoaaa Nelli! Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:32 pm
To the question, if it’s good enough for Texas, it’s good enough for me:

-21
-No felony convictions, not charged with Class A or B misdemeanor or felony, and is not a fugitive, and has not been convicted of a Class A or B misdemeanor in five years, no felony convictions in 10 years
-Not chemically dependent
-Capable of exercising “sound judgement” (i.e., psych eval)
-Is not delinquent on child support
-Is not a tax delinquent
-Has no loan default judgements
-No orders of protection
-Training with proficiency requirements AND annual continuing training

Comment by Thoughts... Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:36 pm
Pretty sure the framers of the constitution thought the litmus test was simply being a human…

Comment by Javorica Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:41 pm
–The available evidence does not support the claim that allowing the carrying of a concealed weapon has unleashed berzerkers on the nation who shoot at anything that moves. –

Hyperbole, much?

I’m more interested where you can carry. I’d start with the Phelps bill and keep adding, allowing any business, organization, governmental body, city, county, park district, transit, etc., to opt out.

Permit holders should also have to carry insurance on their weapon’s use.

Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:44 pm
Word has it right. If we allow carry, then private property owners should be allowed to restrict weapons on their property too.

And insurance is a no-brainer. Some serious amount of liability insurance should be required before a permit is issued and renewed.

If I’m the victim of an accidental shooting, you can bet I’ll be suing the responsible party. Insurance is necessary because I’ll want to collect more than your double wide and pickup truck to cover my medical bills.

Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 2:57 pm
===Word has it right. If we allow carry, then private property owners should be allowed to restrict weapons on their property too.

It’s basic property rights. Missouri does it and it works fine–lots of no weapons allowed signs, but that’s not a big deal.

Comment by ArchPundit Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:02 pm
Rich,

Really, did Loughner have a permit to carry a concealed weapon? How about the dozens of persons in Chicago who have died since the beginning of the year - did any of those shooters have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. 1 incident does not make for “the streets are running with crazies”. I am rather dismayed by your arguement - you usually are more measured and better backed by logic than your attack.

Are you saying that by denying ANYBODY a permit to carry a concealed weapon would prevent such a tragedy as the shooting of Ms Gifford and the rest of the victims? Really?

Wow.

Comment by dupage dan Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:09 pm
===Really, did Loughner have a permit to carry a concealed weapon? ===

AZ is a “constitutional carry” state. Walk in, buy a gun, put it in your pocket, walk out.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:14 pm
No armor piercing bullets.

Comment by Ravenswood Right Winger Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:19 pm
Gak, that’s a stupid gun.

Comment by Confused Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:19 pm
All, Im sorry for the oversight of several calibers of allowable guns….I didn’t mean to make it seem as if I were picking & choosing, I just intended to give a general idea of the allowable guns.

Upon further thought, I think the most important restrictions should involve barrel length & magazine sizes/capacity.

Comment by TCB Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:19 pm
100% registration of firearm ownership and transfer.

This will make it much harder to move firearms from the commercial firearms industry to the gray market to illegal ownership.

And to participate in conceal carry or ownership of handguns and assault weapons one should be required to certify annually. Certification would include five people saying they are regularly in touch with the individual and know the firearms s/he owns. And they know they have an obligation to contact authorities if the firearm owners mental/emotional health deteriorates.

This will make it much less likely that people who are unhinged can have access to firearms.

And it puts the obligation where it should be, the individual firearm owner, not law enforcement, educators, medical people, etc.

Comment by Carl Nyberg Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:20 pm
Arizona does not require a permit for those over 21 to carry a concealed weapon.

The Violence Policy Center tracks the number of killings by legal conceal-carry permit shooters. From May 2007 to today, the number of killings is 402, including 11 police officers.

http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:20 pm
AZ does still have the Federal NICS instant background check at purchase.

Comment by Champaign Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:21 pm
===Are you saying that by denying ANYBODY a permit to carry a concealed weapon would prevent such a tragedy as the shooting of Ms Gifford and the rest of the victims? Really?===

Not at all. Read what I wrote. Putting your silly words in my mouth is a dangerous thing to do around here, bub.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:22 pm
word,

So many here make references to the crazoids running around shooting up the streets and that hardly requires mention. I was just anticipating the backlash which was then dished out anyway.

A good opportunity for discussion missed because one incident by a nutjob who would most likely have secured a weapon even if the law was against him (Laurie Dann comes to mind). Since the SCOTUS has decided that people really do have the right to own firearms, how do you propose to prevent such a tragedy as the Giffords shooting? Perhaps it’s easier to just challenge one word in someone’s post?

Comment by dupage dan Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:27 pm
===Pretty sure the framers of the constitution thought the litmus test was simply being a human… ===

I’m pretty sure they didn’t. That attitude will get you exactly nowhere in getting concealed carry passed.

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:29 pm
OK, Rich, have the concealed carry laws unleashed unleashed crazoids on the public? Are you suggesting I actually pose that question to Representative Gifford?

I don’t really get what your post means, apparently.

Comment by dupage dan Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:29 pm
–So many here make references to the crazoids running around shooting up the streets and that hardly requires mention. –

Not that I’ve noticed. Mention a few examples.

You like setting up your argument by rewriting others posts (”so what you’re saying is…”) and then knocking the strawman down.

Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:29 pm
DD:

The Supremes have never declared you have an unlimited right to own guns . . .

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:30 pm
“all adults who aren’t in jail should make their own choice if they want a gun or associate with those who want to carry a gun”

@Steve Bartin
-So are you an open carry rather than concealed carry proponent then? If people can conceal their weapons then doesn’t that take away your choice whether you associate with gun carriers because you don’t get to know?

Comment by hisgirlfriday Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:40 pm
===Are you suggesting I actually pose that question to Representative Gifford?===

Yes.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:43 pm
As a former bouncer, doesn’t matter who you are, what you do, or how you got ‘trained’. Putting down some Jacks or 4-5 beers and weed makes for very clear thinking. Add this little pocket gift to the mix and the superman, gangster-wanna-be idiot will be everywhere.

Comment by zatoichi Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 3:49 pm
@Zatoichi-

My thoughts exactly. No CC permits for anyone, folks. Leave’m at home where they belong. Riding around with a weapon, especially a handgun in your car is the height of idiocy. The vast majority of the Chicago shootings happened in neighborhoods that already have a lot of weapons wielded by people who already don’t care if they’re breaking the law. Why do you think adding more guns to the mix will make a difference? And, what, you’re going to whip it out and fire at a fleeing drive-by vehicle? Stupid. Dangerous, reckless indifference. If you hit a bystander and kill them, you’d be a murderer, plain and simple. Man-up. It’s okay to run away, drive away.

If you’ve gotta have this nonsense, annual renewal with proficiency training, liability insurance, loss of permit for ever blowing any alcohol level at all, ever having the weapon in a requested free-zone and at least three affidavits of character, with liability connected to a false affidavit to prevent gun shop owners from just milling them out.

Comment by Springfieldish Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 4:16 pm
Rich - while you are down here I hope you also have time to take a look at the ongoing battle between Sen. Durbin and East St. Louis Mayor Alvin Parks. Durbin has been calling on Parks to not allow clubs to stay open all night. Parks reply is that ESL needs the money. Meanwhile, there is at least one shooting a week at these clubs in the wee hours of the morning. Mind boggling that budget money trumps saving lives (and improving the public perception of ESL.)

Comment by El Conquistador Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 4:41 pm
==Not chemically dependent==

That’s a little vague and I’m not sure it’s even illegal to be a drug addict. Possession is illegal, being high and operating a car is illegal, but is being an addict illegal? I don’t know. I also don’t know if this would cover my spring and fall Benedryl habit.

Comment by Cheryl44 Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 4:41 pm
=Arizona does not require a permit for those over 21 to carry a concealed weapon=

Maybe I’m crazy, but I was just on the Arizona Department of Public Safety Website and it certainly looks like to me they have a permit process with fingerprints and background checks.

www.adzps.gov/services/concealed_weapon

Comment by Jaded Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 4:42 pm
To hisgirlfriday:

If a business owner doesn’t want to interact with a gun owner they have and should have every right to put up a sign NO GUNS WELCOME ON THESE PREMISES. What gun banners never can explain is why does Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix have a lower murder rate than Chicago year after year. According to the gun banners more guns leads to a higher murder rate. Exactly when is Chicago going to have a lower murder than Houston? When? Virtually everyone in Houston is packing. So , what is it about Chicago that makes people hysterical about guns. Would you really feel better about knowing only police officers can own guns???

Comment by Steve Bartin Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 4:45 pm
Ultimately, the FOID card should become the defacto CCW license for Illinois citizens. However, HB148 seems very well thought out and should be a good first attempt. Later, the FOID card should be phased out and we should work on getting rid of some of the more restrictive aspects of the bill.

We should not place more restrictions on, or criminalize the good citizen who is concerned about protecting himself, spouse, parents, and children.

If we are going to make things more restrictive, lets do that to the criminal and let the good citizen go about his day, ‘k?

Comment by Benny Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 4:49 pm
NRA participation, with its legal dogmatism, its group fear-sharing, and its idolotry of guns, has become a religious cult for too many Americans.

I know guns, have used them for their designed purpose, grew up with them, and put my life on the line for our Constitution.

The net: I agree with zatoichi and Springfieldish. There has to be strict regulation and reason attached to this issue.

Comment by mark walker Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 4:52 pm
What’s wrong with open carry? Wouldn’t this be better for self-defense (easy access) and for deterrence? And it would allow those who wish to avoid guns a better opportunity to do so. Freedom all the way around.

Comment by Think Big Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 4:53 pm
Bartin: Why did the crime rate in NYC go down without concealed carry there? Why do crime rates go down in general? Maybe a lower population density, better employment rates, better policing, and, well, it’s warmer. Whatever. Sophistic to say it’s the presence of concealed carry. And, explain how CC will lower the murder rate, again? Not everyone is Raylan Givens. Some law abiding citizens may now lose the quick-draw contests you’re dreaming of.

Comment by Springfieldish Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 4:53 pm
Springfieldish:

We are told constantly handguns are so dangerous. We are told in deeply held religious tones more guns lead to more death and crime. Where’s the empirical evidence? Houston is the nearest city in population to Chicago, yet Houston has a lower murder rate. Why? Yes, why? I know it’s difficult to be confused by the facts. The onus is on you , who’s views are way outside the mainstream of what typical Americans think about guns to explain why Chicago and Illinois should be different than the rest of the country.

Comment by Steve Bartin Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 5:01 pm
@SteveBartin:

I’m not hysterical about guns any more than the hardcore non-smoking lobby is hysterical about second hand cigarette smoke. We just don’t like being around things that can kill us.

And I think you fail to grasp how impossible it is for people living in a big city who do not want to be around guns to avoid associating with people carrying weapons if concealed carry is allowed. It’s not as simple as a business owner saying no guns are allowed in their store/office. What about the other store/offices in that building or that neighborhood as you walk past 100s of people on the sidewalk? What about public transportation? What about public parks? What about public sporting events with tens of thousands of people?

The violence in Chicago is a real problem that needs to be resolved. Case in point, is the crazy drive-by shooting in Lakeview yesterday. I just fail to see how concealed carry is going to remedy that (the drive-by victim was shot in the butt, for example) or other examples of violence.

And actually Steve, the onus is on YOU who wants to change the status quo to explain why the status quo should be changed.

Personally I much prefer open carry, so I have a chance to not be

Comment by hisgirlfriday Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 5:15 pm
… around guns. I also think open carry serves as a much better deterrent than concealed carry.

Comment by hisgirlfriday Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 5:16 pm
Easy there, Barty. You haven’t explained NYC. You want to change the laws of Illinois, you be the one with some’splainin to do, not me. Tokyo has a much larger population and far more dense without handguns. Why is their crime rate 2 standard deviations lower than Houston’s? Last I checked, polls still put the anti-CC numbers over 50% of the state. Frankly, I don’t care about the rest of the country. I know three Secret Service agents, one of whom was on a Presidential detail. Your four hours of training scares the beejeevers out of them. They spend a lifetime learning how to service their weapon, spending more time learning when NOT to draw than when to draw. These Walter-Mitty-esque dreams of righteous intervention of yours are just that. Show me the evidence, and offer a plan that balances responsibility with the rights you seek. Or, just continue out left field to the door.

Comment by Springfieldish Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 5:17 pm
This gun-hater nonsense is for the birds. The Supreme Court has clearly stated that people have a right to guns to protect themselves. But not wanting them to proliferate on our streets is a far cry from protecting your home. The weapon noted at the start of this post is really only good for walking up real close to someone and “double-tapping” them. How is something like that going to make our society safer? How would a policeman answering a call feel knowing that little killers like that are in pockets all around the state? Show me how you can tell the difference between the homicidal and just the upset, and we’ll talk.

Comment by Springfieldish Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 5:40 pm
Having liability insurance is a good start, but ultimate civil (not criminal) liability should fall to the last legal owner of a firearm.

It is a citizen’s constitutional right to own this type of property. This right does not preclude the state from delineating who absorbs legal liability for any damages caused by such property.

This concept is not radically different than how we view cars: if a teenager joy rides in Grandma’s 1985 Buick then crashes into a storefront, the storefront owner (and any individuals injured) can sue Grandma for damages (hence the state-required auto liability insurance).

Comment by Abu Iskandr Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 5:43 pm
Abu no you cannot sue grandma. She would have to do something wrong. The auto policy may provide coverage but that would depend on several factors.

Comment by Skeeter Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 5:56 pm
“From May 2007 to today, the number of killings is 402″

And the death rate in the formerly gun free City of Chicago is how many more per year?

Comment by Plutocrat03 Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 6:07 pm
why not admit you are trying to mooch cards cubs tix?
Meanwhile can we require all the gun nuts to wear attractive, bright orange caps so we know who to avoid?

Comment by CircularFiringSquad Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 6:07 pm
–Arizona’s concealed-weapon law takes effect

143 comments by Kevin Kiley - Jul. 29, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

Today is the day gun-rights advocates have had in their sights for a long time.

Starting today, Arizona residents at least 21 years old can carry a concealed weapon without a permit.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2010/07/29/20100729arizona-concealed-weapons-law.html#ixzz1rs6DnmTC–

Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 6:26 pm
Gentlemen:
How many people feel safe knowing that Chicago’s SOS unit could walk around with a gun?
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-09-18/news/0909170839_1_police-corruption-police-officers-chicago-police-department

Comment by Steve Bartin Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 6:36 pm
One bullet kept in a buttoned shirt pocket.

Comment by commonsense in illinois Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 6:55 pm
Ah yes common, the “Barney” rule…

Comment by Mouthy Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 9:46 pm
Forget the gun convention.

Head over to Schlafly Bottleworks.

Comment by Kasich Walker, Jr. Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 9:55 pm
Nobody chose to discuss “Think Big’s” question…why not open carry? I agree, you want to stop crime before it happens, wear your gun, knife, sword, cross bow, whatever in the open where the bad guys can see it and think twice.

I also wonder about the focus on guns. The 2nd Amendment gives us the right to bear “arms.” I read this to mean any armaments, from edged weapons to arrows to fire arms. Everyone should be allowed to bear whatever arms they prefer and thus protect themselves.

Comment by Pot calling kettle Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 10:08 pm
@Pot:
In New York, people are lobbying for their knife rights, and have been for the last few years.

Comment by John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 10:57 pm
“DD, I’m mostly an agnostic on this topic, but try telling Gabby Giffords that concealed carry laws have not unleashed crazoids on the public.”

Rich: With all respect those are your words. Illinois does not have concealed carry, so that means the Gabby Giffords shooting could not have happened here. Tell it to the dozens shot on a typical Chicago weekend.

Comment by wishbone Thursday, Apr 12, 12 @ 11:16 pm
wishbone, the simple fact is that Giffords was shot by someone legally carrying a concealed firearm. There are no ifs ands or buts about that. Period. I didn’t say what you claim I said. I said what I said. And that shooter did what he did. Deal with it.

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Apr 13, 12 @ 6:27 am
2 slugs, 2 does per year = meat in the freezer. One FOID card, a Remington 870 pump 12 the old man bought me 50 years ago when I was 10, 2 permits from the DNR. No NRA. No gun shows. No nuts. And no bucks to all the rackets built around the gun/bullet industrial complex. I must be mad.

Comment by vole Friday, Apr 13, 12 @ 7:57 am
If I recall correctly, the guy at the Giffords shooting who was carrying said he did not pull his weapon because in the chaos he did not want to be mistaken for “the man with the gun” and he did not feel he was adequate to the task of firing in a panicked crowd. Very wise to understand the limitations of concealed carry.

Comment by Way Way Down Here Friday, Apr 13, 12 @ 8:02 am
Requirements should mirroe those of surrounding states. We should be able to carry accross state lines without having to worry about a patchwork of different laws.
That double tap .45 is a bad joke- no thanks, I’ll carry a compact 9.

Comment by G Whiz Friday, Apr 13, 12 @ 8:22 am
–Requirements should mirroe those of surrounding states. We should be able to carry accross state lines without having to worry about a patchwork of different laws.–

They’re all different. Sounds like you want a national law.

Furthermore, with the restrictions proposed in the Phelps bill, it’s not like you could go about your daily business legally strapped everywhere. You’d have to plan your day pretty precisely to stay in compliance with the proposed law.

Comment by wordslinger Friday, Apr 13, 12 @ 8:40 am
Maybe Rahm should install cameras that are sound activated at the decibels of gunfire. Then he can mail the offenders a citation for $100 for the offense. This should save the children!!

Comment by Save the children Friday, Apr 13, 12 @ 8:45 am
vole, we are happy you get your two does and two permits from the DNR. However, if everyone hunted there might not be any does left for you. Not everyone can be a vole.

For the rest of the people in the world who want to protect themselves and family, in many situations the handgun is a better self defense weapon than a slug gun.

Comment by Benny Friday, Apr 13, 12 @ 10:08 am