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Deliberately unclear on the concept

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Illinois

* The Chicago Tribune editorial page endorses a bill to prohibit certain uses of cash grants…

But if they’re also enrolled in TANF, those restrictions get unwound. TANF money can be withdrawn from ATMs, via the Link card, and spent on anything. The money is intended to pay utilities, rent and essentials. But it’s cash — tough to track and regulate. Grocery clerks will tell you: It’s not uncommon for users to go through the grocery lane with food, then come back with TANF cash for cigarettes or alcohol.

The number of TANF recipients in Illinois has risen by 21 percent in the last 10 years, from 108,528 people in 2003 to 131,497.

The food stamp population has risen much more dramatically: 958,798 in 2003 to more than 2.1 million now, a 114 percent increase.

No red flags, lawmakers? Those numbers cannot be explained away as a side effect of a slow economy. We’ve got a bigger problem here.

The money is not “intended” for any special purpose. And once the cash is withdrawn, it’s their money. Same goes for the Tribune’s multitude of tax breaks. Once they get their state tax break, they can use that extra money however they desire, including to bash the government.

Also, the cash program has risen just a little bit each year for the past decade. The Tribune had to use food stamp increases to justify its harangue over a separate program.

And keep in mind that putting restrictions on the usage of that cash wouldn’t save the state a dollar. It would just require (somehow, nobody’s really explained that yet) that the cash not be used for certain items.

* And, frankly, the example used at the beginning of the editorial is quite flawed, but pretty logical to me…

For state Rep. Mike Bost, R-Murphysboro, this was the last straw: A food stamp recipient in his district used her Link card to bail herself out of jail.

She didn’t bail herself out of jail with food stamps. Another apparently deliberate misdirection move by the Tribune. She bailed herself out with her cash grant.

If you ask me, bailing myself out of jail would be my top priority for any cash I had, government or not.

posted by Rich Miller
Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:22 am

Comments

I think we should be more concerned about the increase in the number of Illinois residents who are eligible for these benefits. Critics aside, most of them probably really are eligible. And that’s the real problem.

Comment by cassandra Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:25 am
They are doing more auditioning for the Kochs

Comment by RNUG Fan Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:26 am
Unlike enrollment in food stamp programs, which has skyrocketed, TANF is actually a much smaller program today than in 1996 when the Clinton Administration passed welfare reform. See here: http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/09/news/economy/welfare-reform/index.htm

Will there be misuse or outright fraud? Of course. But Bost trying to turn this into the 21st century version of the Welfare Queen is garbage.

Comment by Anon Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:36 am
If only the greedy fools who go on constant crusades against the poor had to live that way themselves and experience the limited life options and constant degradation from outside sources that comes with it. They’d change their tune then.

Comment by Precinct Captain Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:36 am
Wait, she paid the money back to the government and he’s upset? Guess she should have bought booze.

Comment by Small Town Liberal Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:40 am
Milton Friedman would be appalled at the Tribbies — “free to choose” and all that.

The “more than ever before” argument is pretty useless. There are more millionaires and billionaires now than ever before. I don’t think that means everything’s hunky-dory.

But the slow crawlback from the 2008 crash is still being felt, so I’m not terribly surprised that more working folks are on food stamps.

U.S. and Canada have about 2.0% annualized growth — weak. Most of Europe is back in recession, much of southern Europe could easily be classified in Depression. Latin America is doing pretty good, with Asia a mixed bag.

Comment by wordslinger Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:40 am
Perhaps this is what the Tribune objects to:

=== Economists consider SNAP one of the most effective forms of economic stimulus. Moody’s Analytics estimates that in a weak economy, every dollar increase in SNAP benefits generates about $1.70 in economic activity. Similarly, CBO rated an increase in SNAP benefits as one of the two most cost-effective of all spending and tax options it examined for boosting growth and jobs in a weak economy. ===

We dare not do anything that might demonstrate that Keynes was right.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3239

Comment by Bill White Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:42 am
I think it would be rather easy to fix the problem. Don’t hand out a “cash” portion of the benefits at all. Put the whole thing on the card. When you run the “cash” portion of the card for a purchase at a store it could flag the purchase of cigarettes or alcohol, or bail money as an invalid purchase.

It is already done with the WIC program certificates that cashiers at various stores take. If someone tries to buy something that is not on the list of approved items, it will not process the payment. It actually already works this way for certain food items on the LINK side of the benefits. For instance, a person cannot buy a “Hot” deli item on a link card with the “food only” portion of their benefits.

Comment by John A Logan Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:49 am
I know, we’ll just have the State make direct payments for their utilities. The power won’t get shut off with an an 18-month IOU, right?

Comment by thechampaignlife Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:51 am
Wow, Bill White…with a return like that, everyone in Illinois should be on SNAP! Put in $1, take $1.70 out.

Think of the growth Illinois would experience!

Comment by Anon Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:54 am
“She didn’t bail herself out of jail with food stamps. Another apparently deliberate misdirection move by the Tribune. She bailed herself out with her cash grant.”

TomAto, tomato - voters could care less if it was LINK, EBT, or TANF. It sounds like abuse to me.

Sorry, I think all these programs are riddled with fraud and abuse.

Comment by Allen Skillicorn Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:55 am
Could the “cash” portion of the card be put on a debit type card? You could still pay utility bills and pay for non-food items like toothpaste and deodorant, but you wouldn’t be able to use it to get real cash. That way, cigarettes and alcohol would be denied as invalid use.

Comment by Bee Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:55 am
@Anon

Watch Japan. They are ditching austerity in favor of Keynesian stimulus and thus far their economy has started to grow.

Also too, the costs of further policing SNAP can easily exceed the amounts saved, even as SNAP already has a very low fraud rate, the occasional anecdote notwithstanding.

Of course, plural of anecdote is not data, except when the anecdotes fit a political narrative.

Comment by Bill White Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:58 am
===TomAto, tomato - voters could care less if it was LINK, EBT, or TANF.===

Yes, don’t ever let facts get in the way of beating up the poor people.

Comment by Rich Miller Monday, May 20, 13 @ 11:58 am
@Bee

That is exactly what SNAP has done, use debit card technology to distinguish between different types of aid.

=== In addition, SNAP now comes in the form of an electronic debit card –– like the ATM cards that most Americans carry in their wallets — which recipients can use in the supermarket checkout line only to purchase food. This has been a key tool to reduce trafficking. Sophisticated computer programs monitor SNAP transactions for patterns that may suggest abuse. Federal and state law enforcement agencies are then alerted and investigate. Retailers or SNAP recipients who defraud SNAP by trading their benefit cards for money or misrepresenting their circumstances face tough criminal penalties. ===

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3239

Comment by Bill White Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:00 pm
Wait a minute! What is the daily cost of keeping a person in jail?

Would Mike Bost truly prefer that the taxpayers pay for “three hots and a cot” indefinitely rather than allow cash grants to be used for bail?

Comment by Bill White Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:07 pm
This was discussed before. This is also small potato kind of money. Foodstamp money per person per month is around $130 and the cash benefit if you are “lucky” to get it is not much. You would think we were talking about thousands of dollars per family- when instead we’re talking about a few hundred. This really is right out of the Koch brothers playbook of talking points.

Comment by carbaby Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:12 pm
==Those numbers cannot be explained away as a side effect of a slow economy. We’ve got a bigger problem here.==

Sure do. Stagnant wages, reduced benefits in jobs that once secured a safe middle-class existence. Meanwhile,corporate profits are soaring along with record income inequality. Organized labor is on it’s deathbed, minimum wage increases are non-starters, and seemingly everyday a new company threatens it’s employees jobs to win concessions. The Trib editorial board rightly points out the red flags, but advocated for the policies that created them in the name of “global competition” and being “business-friendly.” Keep on blaming the victims though.

Comment by Jimmy CrackCorn Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:15 pm
Rich, these programs have more to due with corporate farm and convenience store lobbyists than poor folks. Cheap foods, tobacco, and booze are very profitable.

I’m all for capitalism, but have little tolerance for crony capitalism.

Now let me get back to my Cheeto’s…

Comment by Allen Skillicorn Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:22 pm
===These programs have more to due with corporate farm and convenience store lobbyists than poor folks===

Yeah. Nevermind the poor people who rely on this for food.

Please.

Comment by Rich Miller Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:28 pm
=If only the greedy fools who go on constant crusades against the poor had to live that way themselves and experience the limited life options and constant degradation from outside sources that comes with it. They’d change their tune then. =

I was poor, and I have lived like that. Can you say “no indoor bathroom”, “no running water”, and “no heat in bedrooms in the winter”? That was life for me as a boy.

However, none of us still live like that today, due primarily to hard and some very good teachers. Four boys raised in poverty, four boys with master’s degrees. As such, I have a hard time with poverty being blamed for all of society’s ills.

I am MUCH more concerned about how to change the attitudes (towards education, among a litany of items) of many of those in poverty as opposed to handing them money in just about any form. Having been there, done that, I believe that the primary root of poverty is attitudinal and not a societally forced construct under which such persons/families MUST live in degrading conditions forever (remember, I was there…).

Comment by School of Hard Knocks Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:30 pm
“If you ask me, bailing myself out of jail would be my top priority for any cash I had, government or not”.

I couldn’t agree more. The take away is sooner or later, if I had a lick of common sense, I’d have to ask myself how I got myself into a fix where I had to use money that I didn’t earn to bail myself out of jam that more than likely was due to bad choices on my part.

I live in a small community where welfare of all varieties is very close to being the rule rather than the exception. It’s become not so much a necessity, but an art form. I won’t go into details because accusing someone of welfare fraud is almost unproveable these days.

All I know is what I see and what I see is the system is rife with abuse and those participating are living just as comfortable as I am.

Comment by redleg Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:32 pm
– Having been there, done that, I believe that the primary root of poverty is attitudinal and not a societally forced construct under which such persons/families MUST live in degrading conditions forever (remember, I was there…). –

Sure. Throughout history and all over the world, poverty has all been about “attitude.” External forces play no part whatsoever.

Comment by wordslinger Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:34 pm
Wordslinger

First, I am speaking of American society, now, not history for all time. I agree that there have been plenty of countries/civilizations where the people have been held down on purpose - even our own, during the years of slavery and Jim Crow laws.

Second, how do you explain those of us who have made our way out of poverty, compared to those who do not? Luck? The old “right place at the right time” theory? I don’t buy it for four boys in the same family.

Comment by School of Hard Knocks Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:41 pm
Does anyone know why government benefits and subsidies, such as TANF, LINK, SNAP, Section 8, healthcare etc. are not counted as a form of income for tax purposes?

Comment by Phenomynous Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:43 pm
–Second, how do you explain those of us who have made our way out of poverty, compared to those who do not? Luck? The old “right place at the right time” theory? I don’t buy it for four boys in the same family.–

I’m happy for your experience. And poverty is not necessarily a permanent condition for anyone. But try not to take your own view of your own experience and make blanket judgements of the “attitudes” of everyone else trying to make it out.

Comment by wordslinger Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:44 pm
Wordslinger

You haven’t answered my question. What IS the difference, then?

Comment by School of Hard Knocks Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:48 pm
School, you tell me. Are you of the opinion that everyone’s life experience is the same in every way? I seriously don’t know where you’re coming from.

Some people have gone from poverty to becoming billionaires. Are you a billionaire? If not, what’s wrong with your attitude?

Comment by wordslinger Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:56 pm
A bit off topic but has any consideration been given to the use of SNAP money only for produce (inclusive of other unprocessed foods like milk, eggs, and honey), possibly with preferences for fresh, organic, raw, and/or local? I know those add costs and make it less convenient but it might go a long way towards lowering obesity costs which have a greater impact on the poor (and in many cases those healthcare costs are borne by taxpayers). Depending on how the numbers work out, it might be a net cost or a net savings but in either case you have improved quality of life and productivity, leading to self-sufficiency and increased tax rolls.

Comment by thechampaignlife Monday, May 20, 13 @ 12:57 pm
===possibly with preferences for fresh, organic, raw, and/or local? I know those add costs===

Average monthly food stamp benefit per recipient in Illinois = $139.45.

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/avg-monthly-food-stamp-benefits/

Comment by Rich Miller Monday, May 20, 13 @ 1:00 pm
I certainly agree with Rich and Bill White. But to me the wackiest part is that state lawmakers are advocating spending our precious state resources to police a federal program. Unlike Medicaid, which requires a state dollar match, SNAP benefits are all federal money. Any savings accrue to the Feds, but Illinois would pay to print the LINK cards with photos.

Comment by Jeff Park Mom Monday, May 20, 13 @ 1:07 pm
The abuse of these programs is astonishing. There are people who definitely need help, and these programs do that. But the abuse by others in the state of Illinois is mind boggling. All you have to is apply and lie. There are very few checks. Billions a year are wasted.

Comment by Rufus Monday, May 20, 13 @ 1:17 pm
Why are we worried about this? It’s likely going to cost far more to police then we will save. We as a State are already deep in the hole, so we’re going to waste what little fiscal resources we have to torment the poor among us? Brilliant.

The Trib is probably unhappy because the recipients didn’t use the money to buy a newspaper.[/snark]

Comment by Judgment Day Monday, May 20, 13 @ 1:41 pm
==Billions a year are wasted. ==

Billions? In Illinois? At least make a reasonable argument.

Comment by Demoralized Monday, May 20, 13 @ 2:09 pm
==Does anyone know why government benefits and subsidies, such as TANF, LINK, SNAP, Section 8, healthcare etc. are not counted as a form of income for tax purposes? ==

Why would they be? That doesn’t even make sense. These people aren’t making enough money to have to pay income taxes in the first place.

Comment by Demoralized Monday, May 20, 13 @ 2:11 pm
How much would she have cost the taxpayers if she stayed in prison for the night? Wait, sorry, got distracted. The poor are the problem, the poor are the problem.

Comment by L.S. Monday, May 20, 13 @ 2:12 pm
Bailing herself out of jail is a smart economic move. For herself, her family and the state. Good for her.

Comment by Dan Bureaucrat Monday, May 20, 13 @ 2:20 pm
Actually, Rich Miller’s title does say it best:

“Deliberately unclear on the concept”

Comment by Bill White Monday, May 20, 13 @ 2:21 pm
I support these programs and I recognize the need that they address, but I do believe there is a perception of abuse.

The question is often heard, “How can LINK recipients receive cash back from a purchase and turn around and purchase other items with the cash?”

The majority of citizens are not opposed to government assistance but they are opposed to abuse of the system.

A recipient purchasing tobacco, alcohol and candy with government cash assistance presents a perception that is not helpful to the recipients whom are truly in need and whom are not abusing.

Comment by Endangered Moderate Species Monday, May 20, 13 @ 2:33 pm
Everybody needs to take a deep breath. First, if I were on TANF, I would get $432 per month cash, plus a medical card and a SNAP allocation that varies. Out of that $432, I’m expected to pay all expenses that aren’t food or medical. Housing, transportation, clothing, a child care co-payment if I’m working, utilities, etc. (I know, can’t be done.) So rather than talk about silliness like bailing out of jail or buying booze with TANF dollars, let’s talk about the massive increase in the number of bona fide eligible persons who, for the first time in their lives, are reduced to using SNAP or TANF. Let’s talk about the massive transfer of wealth FROM the poor TO the rich that has gone on over the past decade. And let’s talk about the impact on children of living at such low income that families can’t afford stable housing and are living in economic crisis every month.

Comment by Collar Moderate Monday, May 20, 13 @ 2:45 pm
==Does anyone know why government benefits and subsidies, such as TANF, LINK, SNAP, Section 8, healthcare etc. are not counted as a form of income for tax purposes?==

Because the IRS said so. No fooling!

==Why would they be? That doesn’t even make sense. These people aren’t making enough money to have to pay income taxes in the first place.==

Not necessarily so, and why should someone working for 100% of their money have to count it all as income when someone taking home the same total amount, but with some of it from TANF, etc., not have to count all of it?

Comment by Anon. Monday, May 20, 13 @ 4:12 pm
Can you use TANF to pay your taxes?

Comment by Michelle Flaherty Monday, May 20, 13 @ 5:29 pm
Once upon a time I was a welfare worker in Detroit and that’s how we operated. You need clothes for your children? We’ll check the ages and sizes of your children and then we’ll write a slip that you can take to Goodwill and buy 5 pairs of underpants and two pairs of boys trousers, one pair of pajamas, etc. You need a mattress? We’ll check the last time you got one (or maybe we’ll check when we’re doing those man-in-the-house home visits) and then maybe write you a voucher for $35, or whatever the cheapest mattress cost in 1969. To get this you’d better be lined up outside our office when we opened at 8 (with all your children in tow, of course) and be prepared to stay all day. And God forbid you forgot to ask for the bus token that you need to get to the Goodwill store. That’s going to be another day in the office to get that. It took me about three days to conclude that anyone who had any other possible alternative would stay as far away from the welfare system as they could. But it gave some college grads a job.

Comment by Ann Monday, May 20, 13 @ 6:08 pm
Maybe I can help someone out. First, if you do get TANF which is limited, depending on number in the family and if you do or do not have other income, here’s what you do. You go apply for section 8 housing, depending on income or not, you get low rent or no rent. The only downfall is you may have to get on a waiting list for a while. Then if you cannot pay your utilities you you go and apply for LIHEAP or any of the programs that offer energy assistance and they pay some or all your utility bills depending on what you owe. They offer this at least two times a year to pay summer and winter bills, you just have to make sure you apply when they first offer the program as they may run out of funds. You don’t have to worry about a cell phone bill just apply for the cell phone that they offer on TV for people that receive government assistance. If you do happen to run out of food, go to a church pantry and ask for some help there. As far as children in school, they offer free meals or low cost depending on income, and school expenses are paid for by the government also depending on income and if you receive TANF or SNAP. All of this help should free up money for things that are not covered by all of these programs. I am not trying to be snide, I am just offering some ideas that may help someone. Now hopefully that will free up what little money that’s left to pay for the what else that is needed. The help is there you just have to know what it is and where it is.

Comment by Challenger Tuesday, May 21, 13 @ 8:50 am