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* The AP reports that no charges are expected…
Kane County authorities say 10 people were injured this week when a shotgun accidently discharged inside a gun club, sending buckshot ricocheting around the facility.
Sheriff’s investigators say three people, including a 14-year-old boy, were treated at a hospital for non-life threatening injuries after the Tuesday night shooting at the St. Charles Sportsmen’s Club. Seven others were treated at the scene, including the 69-year-old who mistakenly fired the 12-gauge.
Investigators say the man was putting away his gun when he accidentally put a live shotgun shell into the weapon, instead of a “snap cap” to protect the firing pin.
He pointed the gun at the ground inside the clubhouse and pulled the trigger.
This is, in my opinion, perhaps the best reason to oppose concealed carry. People carrying guns in public can easily make mistakes which can wind up hurting innocent bystanders.
* The Daily Kos blog has been compiling local stories for its extensive “GunFail” series. Here’s a recent one…
A woman was injured after an accidental shooting in the parking lot at Arlington National Cemetery on Memorial Day.
The shooting occurred Monday, hours before President Barack Obama laid a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknowns.
Sharon Walker, a spokeswoman for Joint Base Myer-Henderson Hall, which responded to the incident, said the gun fell out of a cemetery visitor’s car. Walker said the gun fell under the car and the owner, an active-duty serviceman, tried to retrieve it.
Walker said a shot went off and struck the serviceman’s mother in the leg.
posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:40 am
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Its negligence. I hate “it went off” guns dont go off, you put your bugger hook on the bang switch and it goes bang.
And with the CCW law we have the number of GFZs actually REQUIRE that you handle the loaded weapon more often (unholstering and reholstering)…
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:44 am
Everyday we see stories of little kids shooting other little kids with moomy or daddy’s gun. This is awful and will happen increasingly the more guns are out there and the more prevalent they are. Guns in the home are most likely to be used not to defend against an evil intruder, but intentionally or unintentionally against someone innocent.
Ok, let the gun raving begin.
Comment by Chicago Cynic Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:45 am
Yes and this is why I opposed conceal carry (I also believed the courts overstepped their bounds) because more hidden weapons in public puts me and my family at risk. Bullets don’t have names on them and people die or are wounded from gunfire all the time even when there is not criminal intent.
Comment by Ahoy! Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:48 am
===Its negligence.===
Yes, it is. And humans, being humans, can be negligent.
Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:51 am
If the concealed gun law passes, I hope they will have some mandatory training and or certification program in place. (This would also create jobs, and state income)
Comment by 3rd Generation Chicago Native Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:55 am
The two concealed carry fail anecdotes that got me the most worked up in recent months were 1) just after sandy hook, a guy left his gun at the movie theater when it fell out of his pocket without him knowing. It was discovered by school children the next day on a field trip to a matinee showing of “lincoln” and 2) just last week a grandma and grandson were going on the Dinosaur ride at Disney World when they found a loaded pistol on their seat left by a careless concealed weapon permit holder.
Comment by hisgirlfriday Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:55 am
===you put your bugger hook on the bang switch and it goes bang===
Or like what happened to the retired cop who dropped his gun at a Des Plaines school, the gun fell on the hammer which caused a discharge without the trigger being touched.
Accidental, negligent :: tomato, tomahto.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:56 am
p.s. For somebody so relieved that the gun bill passed so the commenters on this issue on this blog can move on, Rich sure has a funny way of showing it.
Comment by hisgirlfriday Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:59 am
—Yes, it is. And humans, being humans, can be negligent. —
Yup, no doubt. and we can minimize that. But we can never live in a risk free society, ever. And by and far those that do get CCWs has been shown to have fewer accidents, crimes, even police interactions. This is probably because of the type of person that would go through the checks and the training they receive.
Just like a speeding car ramming into a person or another car, negligence cannot be stopped only reduced through training and setting proper expectations.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:59 am
Same argument can be made against giving people drivers licenses. Heck, when I was 6 I managed to get in my mom’s car, get it started, put it in reverse, and crash into a telephone pole - knocking it over. Definitely an argument for only allowing the police and military (and rich people) access to automobiles.
Comment by Confused Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 10:59 am
47th
could you find me a link to that story? I ask because that was addressed a few decades ago when someone used that excuse with a 1911. since then i think all new firearms have been tested for that. Not saying you are wrong by any means just curious what gun the idiot is saying he dropped.
Comment by Mason born Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:02 am
The story says the “shotgun accidently (sic) discharged,” then it goes on to say, “He pointed the gun at the ground inside the clubhouse and pulled the trigger.” So, really, the gun did not “accidently (sic) discharge,” the trigger was pulled deliberately. It’s a faint nuance, but sloppy writing to lead the story with the gun and and not the shooter doing anything by accident.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:03 am
shotgun injuries…..feels like Freedom.
Comment by Amalia Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:03 am
47th
Found it appears to be according to the Daily Herald a “old revolver” wonder if it was checked out afterwards.
Comment by Mason born Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:06 am
Sad. Unfortunate. Careless. Negligent.
This is why we have training. And why this will never happen to a majority of gun owners.
While many will jump up and down about the dangers of guns, keep in mind we accept an accidental fatality rate for EVERYTHING. How many children drown in pools each year? Car accidents? Peanut allergy reactions? Etc. etc. etc.
While we should take as many precautions as we can to prevent these (including training) this should NOT speak to overall legality of weapons, unless you are prepared to advocate many other things become illegal.
The simple fact this guy pulled the trigger indoors, even with a snap cap, is careless. Most gun owners know you NEVER pull the trigger, let alone put your finger on it, unless you intend to fire it. Same with the active duty serviceman- Not only should the gun have had it’s safety on, but there’s no way he should have retrieved it in a manner that would set it off.
Don’t think this is the “best” argument against conceal carry- How often has this happened nationwide? Seemingly often enough to make the news every time. And how many states have seen consequences so great that they overturned their laws?
Comment by Anon Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:07 am
Rich,
As for people making mistakes while Carrying as long as the weapon is in the holster it is practically inert. The danger happens when the weapon is removed. I remember when i was working for IDOC one of their SWAT want-to-be’s shot himself in the butt with a glock trying to holster it.
Comment by Mason born Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:11 am
Thanks Mason. Good thing there are no old revolvers in circulation and that nobody carries those around in places like schools.
It’s just fortunate that no one was seriously hurt. Hopefully the gun was not only “checked out” but disassembled and made inoperable so this never happens again.
Until it happens again to someone else.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:13 am
===Yes, it is. And humans, being humans, can be negligent.===
Maybe we should outlaw automobiles too.
Comment by Dave Victor Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:13 am
If people injured in “accidental” shootings start filing lawsuits, I think you would see extra care in handling of weapons and ammunition.
Comment by Wensicia Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:15 am
@47th
—Or like what happened to the retired cop who dropped his gun at a Des Plaines school, the gun fell on the hammer which caused a discharge without the trigger being touched.—
I would like to see that weapon. Anything manufactured in the last, what? 2 decades or more wont do that. That or his weapon was in disrepair.
In either case its negligent. Dropping a loaded revolver… for it to go off it has to be a COCKED revolver. Carrying in an unsafe condition and dropping it with the hammer cocked?
me thinks there is more to the story, often cops cover for other cops… because guns just dont “go off” Its like saying the TV is in perfect working order but it just keeps turning itself on.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:16 am
47th Ward @ 10:56 am:
Having one under the hammer was just pure stupidity. And I have to question the person’s choice of a firearm; a number of pistol designs have an internal block to prevent firing even if you do drop the gun on it’s hammer … I know mine does.
Comment by RNUG Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:17 am
IMHO…concealed carry legislation should require the carriers to have liability insurance. If some negligent hero-wannabee doesn’t have the sense, or the knowledge, to operate his weapon probably and I’m injured by a “stray” shot, I’ll sue the bejesus out of him. He’ll wish he’d never gotten a permit. Assuming, of course, he has one in the first place.
Comment by Deep South Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:18 am
47th
I am not arguing that it would never occur again. what I was trying to point out is that is a very Rare occurrence. It is actually even with an older weapon a very hard thing to duplicate. The military (1911 at the time was sidearm) attempted to duplicate the situation and determined it was so rare as to not require a refit on any existing ordinance.
My question here is what was the Cop doing that he dropped it in the first place?? To me he had to either leave the Fanny pack unzipped and the firearm loose or else toss the whole mess onto the floor. I can’t see either action being reasonable in a room full of minors. I would have expected a Cop to know better.
Comment by Mason born Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:20 am
@Deep South
—
I’ll sue the bejesus out of him.
—
You think that doesnt happen? you have every right to sue someone that uses a firearm against you or in a negligent way… Happens all the time. Actually it is not unusual for homeowners (not even CCW) that shoot an intruder who broke into their house to be sued by the damn intruder and his family.
That is part of the system. You (as a gun owner) are responsible for every bullet that leaves the barrel.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:22 am
Ron…
Someone in this thread suggest we can automobiles. Sure. And just to be clear, I don’t think anyone is advocating the a ban on firearms. But drivers are required to carry insurance, by law, and so should concealed carriers. My fear is that there will be quite a few people who want to carry but will not, or cannot, do so in a safe, responsible manner. There’s a reason why there is a law requiring drivers to carry liability insurance.
Comment by Deep South Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:28 am
@Deep
if there were insurance for that… maybe. I have a some stuff that would probably cover me (an umbrella) But I am pretty sure that may not cover negligence. The same way auto-insurance doesnt cover someone being negligent with a vehicle.
Been around guns and stuff a long time, never seen such a policy.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:31 am
I would say this is a perfect example of why to support the 16 hours of training in the CC bill as well. Carrying a loaded firearm in public is not a game. Take a Saturday and Sunday and learn how to be safe instead of complaining about it.
Comment by Mr. Jim Lahey Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:32 am
===The same way auto-insurance doesnt cover someone being negligent with a vehicle.===
You might want to re-read your car insurance policy Ron. All accidents are negligent, remember?
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:35 am
Ron…
I believe I saw on the NRA website where they, or someone on their behalf, did offer such a policy.
Comment by Deep South Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:37 am
@Mr Jim,
it also shows the fallacy of Law Enforcement being “highly trained” and constantly re-training… Most aren’t/don’t. I have a neighbor up in Wisconsin (weekend place) that is a Cook County sheriff. Literally handgun training 17 years ago on a .38 and a re-qual (shoot) once a year… never ever shoots outside of that. no re-training, refreshers, etc.
LEOs are people. Some are gun guys, most aren’t. And those that aren’t are often more dangerous than the “gun guy” as they dont train as often and are more complacent with the weapon.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:38 am
2-3 incidents? Are you blind? There are dozens of stories out there of kids accidentally shooting other kids. This is not isolated. 300 million guns and more means more accidents. Period.
Oh, and the purpose of cars is transportation. The purpose for guns is to shoot people and things. It’s not the same thing.
Comment by Chicago Cynic Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:40 am
@Deep,
there is gun insurance (Loss theft, etc) and personal liability or self defense insurance. None of those cover simple negligence.
One policy will cover “accidental” (negligent) injury you may cause while hunting or trapping. but it is limited to that.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:41 am
@Chicago Cynic
500 is a stat. your “dozens of stories” is anecdotal. What he is saying that accidental (negligent) incidents dont even rise near the number of guns used in actual crimes that result in death or injury. Using an accidental (negligent) shooting as a basis for an argument against CCW isnt probably the best argument when compared to unlawful use.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:44 am
===when compared to unlawful use===
That’s a red herring. I mean, who doesn’t look reasonable compared to an armed South Side gangbanger?
Stick to the topic, please.
Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:47 am
Deep South,
A typical homeowners’ policy would cover accidental discharge.
And no policy would cover an intentional act.
Comment by HenryVK Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:50 am
@Rich
I thought I was on topic.
Negligent discharges have possible criminal and civil remedies. BUT they are a very small portion of gun related injuries overall and specifically from CCW holders.
Does it happen? sure. As the story with the former Cop shows. But statistically looking at other states data (Florida having the longest run) it is very very tiny rate of incidents… and of course anecdotes are not a good way to create statewide policy.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:52 am
Rich - this is why we were so opposed to “gun free zones” because now instead of touching guns only at home *once* and leaving them safely stored in a holster, now we have to “fiddle” with our guns in public which is a huge public safety issue.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:53 am
Ron,
First, I can’t speak for others, but I am not making any arguments against CCW. That ship sailed and I’m OK with it.
The point is, to use your phrase, negligence happens. And as others point out, more firearms leads to more deaths by firearms. Almost 60% of all shootings are suicide. 37% are homicide and about 2% are “oops.”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerkay/2013/01/22/who-knew-the-leading-cause-of-gun-death-is-suicide/
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:54 am
Sorry, those are shooting death statistics, not shooting injuries.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:57 am
@47th,
yes… 2% are oops. and probably even lower when you take out “oops story I created so I wouldn’t get charged with anything or something less”
But assuming more guns = more accidents again doesnt wash. The number of accidents, deaths and just shootings has remained steady or went down as the number of guns has increased and CCW (meaning public handling/carrying) has increased.
So yes, if guns exist (and they do) there will be “accidents”. But the trend over a couple of decades has accidents and non-accidents going down even as gun counts and CCW holders go up.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:59 am
Here is a handy chart from the Kaiser Family Foundation about gun deaths per 100,000 residents, state by state. Notice the correlation to states with permissive gun laws:
http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-per-100000/#map
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:00 pm
Pray tell, what is the point of this “news”? How many people have been injured this spring by negligent use of lawn mowers? Or chain saws? Or cars? A gun is just another mechanical device that can injure or kill if handled carelessly. Go on to something that matters!
Comment by Skirmisher Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:03 pm
@47th
again it only shows deaths, and not reasons. We are talking (to use your words) About the “Oops”
Also correlation does not = causation. Look at MD… tough gun laws, but a rate equal to Texas? or Ohio’s laws are not all that tough.
one look at one set of data without controlling factors, or looking at the “oops” category alone.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:05 pm
How about For 200 years the second amendment was a state’s right amendment specific to well armed militia and 30 years ago a few legislative judges started to re-intrupret it to an extreme level we have now.
Sorry, the stuff about 500 deaths in chicago and gun rights isn’t correct. Chicago’s problem is Indiana’s gun laws and a 1/2 century of segregation of poor. CCW isn’t going to reduce that, it also might not increase it.
Comment by frustrated GOP Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:06 pm
“2-3 incidents? Are you blind? There are dozens of stories out there of kids accidentally shooting other kids. This is not isolated. 300 million guns and more means more accidents. Period.”
Total gun deaths 0-9 years old in 2010 = 36 (CDC)
Total deaths due to lightning in 2010 = 29 (NWS)
Seriously, not an epidemic.
Comment by Confused Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:06 pm
Sorry, I mean to say “accidental gun deaths”.
Comment by Confused Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:07 pm
Signing off… have work to do. Good talking to you all. Stay safe.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:07 pm
What’s so radical about pulling the “conceal carry” permit and FOID card for people who use bad judgment? For example, Sen. Donne Trotter.
Comment by Carl Nyberg Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:20 pm
=How about For 200 years the second amendment was a state’s right amendment specific to well armed militia and 30 years ago a few legislative judges started to re-intrupret it to an extreme level we have now=
Which Constitution have you read? The 2nd amendment say “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, (justification clause) the right of the people to keep and bears arms shall not be infringed.” (rights clause) “The justification clause does not modify, restrict, or deny the rights clause.” - Eugene Volokh, Prof. Law, UCLA. The 2nd Amendment makes no mention of state’s rights such as giving the state a right to maintain a militia. The amendment states ‘the right of the people” - i.e., a preexisting right being recognized by the amendment.
Of 300 decisions of the federal and state courts that have taken a position on the meaning of the Second Amendment or the state analogs to it, only 10 have claimed that the right to keep and bear arms is not an individual right. Many of the other decisions struck down gun control laws because they conflicted with the Second Amendment, such as State v. Nunn (Ga. 1846). - For the Defense of Themselves and the State: The Original Intent and Judicial Interpretation of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, Clayton Cramer, Praeger Press, 1994
St. George Tucker, any early legal commentator and authority of the original meaning of the constitution wrote in Blackstone’s Commentaries “… nor will the constitution permit any prohibition of arms to the people” - Blackstone’s Commentaries, St. GeorgeTucker, Vol 1. Note D. Part 6. Restraints on Powers of Congress (1803).
Comment by RetiredArmyMP Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:21 pm
What in heck does the negligent discharge of a shotgun at a gun club have to do with CCW?
Comment by Ken_in_Aurora Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:27 pm
Ken,
The relevance would be that the pro-gun people, who claim that guns pose no threat, really do pose a threat since despite the claims that pro-gun people are all calm, rational, and safe, at times the opposite is true.
However, a few stories do not provide evidence of any substantial trend. Yes, people will do certain stuff, but not in numbers that appear significant.
If this was happening more regularly it would be a serious concern. But it isn’t.
Comment by HenryVK Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:32 pm
RonOglesby,
You at a minimum act like you know a lot (not knowing you I will assume you do), is there any hard data out there to show that more lives are saved due to conceal-carry than people killed by guns? I’m fine with an aggregate comparison or just a comparison of lives saved vs. people killed by accident. I’m pretty sure this data is not available, especially since Congress does it best to make sure the CDC and the AFT do not have good data on gun violence, which is extremely unfortunate, because good data can drive good policy (even if you or I disagree with it).
Comment by Ahoy! Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:35 pm
Typo: “due” to the design, not “do”.
Comment by downstate commissioner Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:48 pm
47 - thank you for bringing up the suicide statistics. It’s sad but largely ignored. Lots of talk about Sandy Hook and Chicago as examples of gun violence, but 60% of all gun deaths are suicides.
Comment by siriusly Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:50 pm
“A gun is just another mechanical device that can injure or kill if handled carelessly.” You don’t seriously believe that. Do you? Guns are designed to shoot and kill. That is their purpose.
Comment by Chicago Cynic Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:52 pm
Siriusly,
Courts have made pretty clear that guns will be allowed in homes.
Conceal carry has no impact on guns in homes.
Comment by HenryVK Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 12:53 pm
=Courts have made pretty clear that guns will be allowed in homes. Conceal carry has no impact on guns in homes.=
“We are disinclined to engage in another round of historical analysis to determine whether eighteenth-century America understood the Second Amendment to include a right to bear guns outside the home. The Supreme Court has decided that the amendment confers a right to bear arms for self-defense, which is as important outside the home as inside. The theoretical and empirical evidence (which overall is inconclusive)is consistent with concluding that a right to carry firearms in public may promote self-defense. Illinois had to provide us with more than merely a rational basisfor believing that its uniquely sweeping ban is justified by an increase in public safety. It has failed to meet this burden.” Judge Posner, United States Court of Appeals For the Seventh Circuit, Nos. 12-1269, 12-1788, pg 20, decided 11 Dec 2012.
Comment by RetiredArmyMP Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:03 pm
Accidents happen and you can’t outlaw stupid. Be it cars, radio controlled helicopters or guns. But you are not going to stop criminals from concealing so don’t stop law abiding citizens.
Comment by over the top Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:06 pm
MP, the problem with being pro-gun is having people like you on our side.
What else did Posner say?
Who do you think you are arguing against?
When you post stuff like that, you make all advocate of CC look bad.
Your quote is incomplete. You know it. They know it. Everybody knows it.
Comment by HenryVK Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:11 pm
The 2nd Amendment may give people certain rights pertaining to firearms, but there is nothing in the Constitution that gives anyone the right to vigilante justice. My concern is that some concealed carriers will become hero wannabees and fire their weapons in certain situations with the idea that they are “saving the day” and will instead hurt or kill innocent people under the guise that they were somehow “exercising their 2nd Amendment rights.” Since it seems there is no type of liability insurance to cover these incidents, or cases of negligence, some concealed carriers could well find themselves in all sorts of legal hot water, and end up homeless and penniless due to a court settlement. I live in a very rural area…all sorts of people around here have guns. I’m not about to start carrying one around because I think I need some sort of protection from an imaginary boogeyman, especially when the unintended consequences could be severe.
Comment by Deep South Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:24 pm
=Your quote is incomplete. You know it. They know it. Everybody knows it=
What about it is incomplete? It was taken directly from the published opinion of Judge Posner, who wrote the majority opinion.
=What else did Posner say?=
If you want to read the entire opinion, go find it yourself. I have cited the source.
=When you post stuff like that, you make all advocate of CC look bad=
How? All I have quoted is Judge Posner’s concluding statement taken directly from the published opinion. This was the basis of the court’s striking down Illinois’ total ban on carrying firearms.
Comment by RetiredArmyMP Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:29 pm
Deep
I am curious what kind of situation you are envisioning? To fire a weapon at someone you would need to fit the criteria of justifiable use of force. In laymen terms believe or reasonably believe that your life or the life of another (family etc.) is in danger. The law did nothing to change that and in point of fact part of the 16hr training will involve justifiable use of force.
Comment by Mason born Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:35 pm
Chicago Cynic
==Do you? Guns are designed to shoot and kill. That is their purpose.==
Actually he is more right than you want to admit. A firearm is a machine designed to fire a projectile at a certain speed. Just as your kitchen Knife is designed to cut. It is the person behind the knife that chooses whether to cut a steak or another person. Just as it is the person behind the gun who chooses to shoot a paper target or another person.
Comment by Mason born Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:40 pm
Retired,
Did Posner write anything about potential restrictions on carrying outside the home?
Comment by HenryVK Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:41 pm
Hmm, I’d never thought about this way, but there is a credible case to require all people who use concealed carry to also purchase mandatory insurance for cases of negligence.
The car analogies above only bring this to the forefront. I mean, from my (non-carrying) perspective, when I get on the road, I know to be on my guard. I’ve been trained. I know there could be bad drivers out there. I’m supposed to be defensive.
How much stronger is the case that someone else should have to take out mandatory insurance against their possibility of injuring me, when now apparently for the rest of my life in Illinois, I have to be on the lookout for anyone, who might have a strange bulge in his jacket, just about anywhere (if ISRA had its way) on the off chance it’s a loaded concealed gun about to put a hole in my leg? I have zero culpability for suffering that injury. And there’s no guarantee the person who was careless with that gun has two dimes to rub together, to pay for my resulting medical bills.
Doesn’t Illinois really need revenue right now? This is an idea, fiscally and ethically, worth considering. But as I said I’m new to it, so there may well be valid counter-challenges.
Comment by ZC Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:44 pm
@Ahoy,
thanks for the compliment. I am by no means an “expert” on this, but I think of myself as educated on the topic. I am into guns… my wife is not. My daughter shoots as does my father, but not my sister or step dad (very anti-gun).
But to your point. There have been a few studies on DGUs (defensive gun uses) but none that I know of that quantify CCW vs say in the home, or on your property, etc. Part of the problem is lacking of a report of a non-crime (ie: This guy started to pound on my car window, I pointed my pistol at him, he ran away, do I call the cops or just leave?)
A guy name Kleck estimates 300k to 3 Million defensive gun uses a year. Others say he counts wrong and estimate lower at 250-350K, with some studies higher than 3 Million into the 4 million range.
Of course all of that will vary because its easier to admit to being a ‘victim’ of a violent crime in a study than say “I pointed my gun at someone” even if you were about to be robbed lets say…
Anyway studies vary. No one doubts (except an extreme few) that defensive gun use occurs. Though trying to isolate every factor and point purely at CCW=less crime or X number of lives saved is almost impossible to do.
what pretty much everyone does agree on statistically though is violent crime over the last few decades (and even gun crime and death) has gone down at the same time the number of guns and # of legal CCW holders has went up. Not saying this is causation, just showing that increased CCW holders (guns on the street) has not lead to the predicted increase in gun deaths, crime or even gun violence.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:46 pm
If I kill him before he kills me, does that count as a “saved life?” I ask both rhetorically and seriously (how are they counted in the statistics quoted earlier?)
Comment by Anon MCMLXVII Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:50 pm
@ Anon MCMLXVII
The Kleck and other studies I mention do not count lives, its simply yearly defensive gun uses (DGUs). This may be as simple as brandishing, or up to an actual shot being fired. Death, injury or no injury, actual shots fired or no shots fired, may be invoked in any DGU they site in the studies.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:55 pm
@Retired:
My problem with your last quote is that it made absolutely no sense with what you were responding to. All he said was that CC has no effect on guns in homes. You can keep posting all of the quotes you want but you aren’t making a lot of sense doing that. If you want to copy and paste be my guest but you are offering absolutely nothing to the conversation. They are right. You make your side look bad.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:58 pm
Almost 60% of all shootings are suicide. 37% are homicide and about 2% are “oops.”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerkay/2013/01/22/who-knew-the-leading-cause-of-gun-death-is-suicide/
___
The way I read that title of the map “Number of Deaths Due to Injury by Firearms” is that those are percentages of people that die after being shot/injured. It would reflect a better medical response to a gunshot than indicate a link to gun violence. Thus larger states with more rural land, like Texas and Alaska might be further from a hospital when a gunshot injury occurs.
Comment by Pete Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 2:52 pm
=My problem with your last quote is that it made absolutely no sense with what you were responding to.=
Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of the comment. If so, I apologize for the distraction.
But was also meant to respond to the commenter at 12:06 pm who noted “How about For 200 years the second amendment was a state’s right amendment specific to well armed militia and 30 years ago a few legislative judges started to re-intrupret it to an extreme level we have now.’
Comment by RetiredArmyMP Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 2:54 pm
I love it when people think they need to comment on something they know absolutely nothing about. Ask yourself this before you go spouting off at the mouth. What is Chicago’s crime rate? Then ask yourself what is the crime rate of rural downstate Illinois where good law abiding citizens are allowed to possess or own a gun. Accidents happen. I guess we shouldn’t drive cars either.
Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 3:25 pm
–The fact the state has violated peoples rights and now you will have 6 million people in Chicago…–
We will? Buy real estate — it’s going to go sky high.
The “oops” factor is the main reason I’m glad there’s no c-c on the el. You get a packed Red Line train filled with tired, cranky people (plus the usual assortment of lunatics and drunks) and it’s just a big bowl of bad.
Plus, it’s not like gang-bangers pack a lunch and ride a train to work every morning. They generally stick close to home. Plus, if they’re any good at what they do, they’re not riding the el.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 3:46 pm
I have always been an advocate for education to reduce accidents. And not just for gun owners and thief families, but for everyone
We use education to mitigate risks, and courses like drivers education are taught in schools. I firmly believe firearm safety should be taught to primary, junior and high school children. It can be taught without a political slant, just the basics of don’t touch, call an adult like the NRA does, but instead of pthe NRA the DARE program could do it.
I would be curious to see how many negligent incidents occur daily and yearly by legal firearm owners.
Comment by FormerParatrooper Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 5:07 pm
Thief is supposed to be their. I really dislike my mobile.
Comment by FormerParatrooper Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 5:09 pm
Yes, Rich, you’re right–it’s gonna happen and it’ll happen far more often now than it would’ve before, obviously. Making mistakes is just a real part of human nature, but, tragically when a loaded weapon is involved, will lead to injuries, some horriblly serious, and of course at times, fatal. I’ve been saying this for weeks now to my family–get ready to start reading about all sorts of such horiffic incidents in Illinois for years to come now that we wouldn’t be hearing about otherwise, because obviously gun usage can become very dangerous, intentionally or accidentally. And beware when people’s tempers flare who are carrying a concealed weapon–particularly on our Roads when people are driving…! Best to pray your loved ones and you will not BE in the wrong place at the wrong time when the guns come flyin’ out and ablazin’, over something dumb like how someone thought some other driver wouldn’t let him pass…!
Comment by Just The Way It Is One Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 5:28 pm
@ Just the way….
Can you please point to the other states that had an increase gun accidents and deaths (and “people’s tempers flare who are carrying a concealed weapon”)? Your prediction is the same as every other state prior to CCW implementation yet funny… there is no data to back it up.
Florida actually tracked CCW holders FOR YEARS after implementation and finally dropped the tracking of incidents (misdemeanors, traffic violations, injuries, anything) since it was so low compared to the general population it wasnt worth tracking.
Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 5:40 pm
You’re right to a gun at all times supersedes my right to life. THANKS!
Comment by And1 Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 6:55 pm
Rich: Let’s save the pig wrestling for a day when we’ve got little else.
Comment by walkinfool Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 7:13 pm
- ZC - Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 1:44 pm:
“rest of my life in Illinois, I have to be on the lookout for anyone, who might have a strange bulge in his jacket, just about anywhere (if ISRA had its way) on the off chance it’s a loaded concealed gun about to put a hole in my leg?”
Do you never venture across the state line? Do you bunker down in Illinois only? Do you really fear guns that much where you wouldn’t cross our borders and enter into one of the 49 states that allow their citizens to enjoy the freedoms provided by the Constitution? What a sad life you must live.
Comment by Not Afraid Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 9:47 pm
The “oops factor” will occur when there’s negligence with weapons that perform as they are designed to.
That’s why gun shows require everyone to unload their weapons. For everyone’s safety. Yet accidents still occur.
Ron, if you want some better research on gun violence, perhaps you could petition the NRA crew in Congress to take the brick off gun research funding for the CDC. Knowledge is a good thing.
But that ain’t going to happen. Bloomberg should probably just write a check to John Hopkins or U of C. They’re doing what they can on very meager resources.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324731304578191531343495520.html
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Jun 6, 13 @ 11:36 pm