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* What is the one thing you dislike most about Gov. Pat Quinn? Make sure to explain your answer.

posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:09 pm

Comments

The one thing I dislike the most about Governor Quinn is his public speaking style.

I know that he is a very genuine and caring person. I really do know that he takes governing seriously and he wants to make government better. But when he speaks publicly, I don’t get that feeling from him at all. He comes across as phony and fumbling for grandiose expressions. I am sorry to say that because I do like the guy * he just has a very strange speaking and I find that it causes me to be uninterested in him and what he is saying.

Comment by Siriusly Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:14 pm
I dislike that Pat Quinn uses the Populist Pat Quinn to be Governor Pat Quinn, especially when Illinois could use … a governor.

You can’t have cartoons speak for you, when you refuse to be seen at the table, speaking for yourself.

You can’t try to undermine 1/3 of the Government as a stunt, and then push the stunt so far that your polling increases, but your governmental credibility plummets.

You can’t play “Man of the People” when you need to be playing “Seat Holder of the Executive”. Going in front of voters with a puffed chest banging away at 1/3 of the government is sadly small … compared to the Powers of the Illinois Governor, when wielded correctly, could make Pat Quinn, Governor, even more popular than Pat Quinn, Populist.

I dislike most the “Populist” ideal as a tool to be THE governor.

In reality, knowing you have power is sometimes hared to figure out than knowing how to use… power.

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:15 pm
His never ending use of the phrase “day and night.”

Comment by John A Logan Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:15 pm
The fact that Rod Blagojevich picked him as his Lite guv

Comment by Chucky Jay Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:18 pm
@Chuck Jay… Blago didn’t pick him… they each ran separately for their respective office during the primary and were forced to run together in the general.

Comment by Just Observing Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:22 pm
His dishonesty on state retiree pensions. He keeps talking about being for senior citizens while trying to cut the pensions of the former teachers and state employees, all of whoim are senior citizens. He feels strongly enough about the pension funding obligation that he has fully funded it during the years he’s actually had control of the budget but he is also strongly urging the GA to drastically cut pension benefits so he can lower the funding and get ou tof honoring the promises. He’s for expanding Medicaid for the poor but has no problem welching on the promised premium free retiree health insurance. He’s apparently on board with restricting the retiree’s health insurance options while talking about the new Obamacare health exchange choices.

Definitely talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time. He’s nothing but a hypocrite…

Comment by RNUG Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:22 pm
Quinn’s refusal to answer questions directly.

Madigan if he talks at all will give you up to 20 sarcastic words in his answer.

Cullerton will be diplomatic and give you a couple a paragraphs on a subject.

Rahm just lies.

But Quinn will talk for two hours and never come close to talk about what your original question was.

Comment by Rollo Tomasi Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:23 pm
Chucky Jay - Blago didn’t pick him - he was elected.

Comment by RWP Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:23 pm
–The fact that Rod Blagojevich picked him as his Lite guv –

Sigh. Some can never get it right….

To the question, when backed to the wall, he plays to the cheap seats sometimes with demagogic moves such as the legislator pay veto.

He had to know it served nothing but his own personal political interests and had nothing to do with real governing.

Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:24 pm
His total lack of respect for the working middle class citizens of this state. He appears to be all about those who benefit from the labors of others. He presses the needs of the poor,lazy and illegal and the greed of the rich while leaving the payment to those who follow the rules, do the work and yearn for the representation they charge us for.

Comment by Tony Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:24 pm
I dislike his governing style. I realize it’s more than a one person sandbox, however, I wish he played better in the sandbox with others.

Comment by E Man Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:25 pm
The whole “outsider reformer” act he’s been pushing his whole career. Seems dishonest, since he’s run for every office under the sun and fed out of the public trough as often and for as long as possible.

Comment by Ron Burgundy Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:27 pm
That there is not a reality show with cameras following him 24/7. ala the Truman show. Talk about an internet feed that would bring workplace production to a halt.

It’s like the last 12 laps at Talladega. I know there is about to be a big wreck and massive carnage, yet I can’t look away.

His campaign slogan should be, Pat Quinn, worth the price of admission. You can say a lot about him, but at least he is entertaining.

Comment by the Patriot Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:28 pm
Sorry - there’s a tie. There are two things:

That he pretends to be a reformer.
The Cuback Amendment.

Comment by Keyrock Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:30 pm
Oops, missing a “t” there.
The Cutback Amendment.

Comment by Keyrock Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:31 pm
His background as an advocate makes him ill-prepared to compromise with the Legislative branch. Also his constant reference of “the hard-working people of Illinois” is wearing thin.

Comment by Darienite Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:31 pm
The fact that he will most likely be reelected.

I doubt that anyone on here, even those that love him, is going to call him anywhere near above average as a gov. He has massive majorities in both houses, many governors would pray for such an opportunity, yet what has he accomplished? He is openly fighting the GA. It is sad that the chance of a problem being fixed is inversely proportional to the amount of input Quinn puts in. Yet at a time when the State desperately needs competent leadership he will sail through the primary unopposed. Thanks to the tendency of IL GOP to self immolate we will most likely get 4 more years of feckless incompetent leadership or at best absence of leadership.

Comment by Mason born Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:33 pm
You never know what he is going to say or do next, because he has no principles for which he will take a stand or make a sacrifice, no understanding of the need to keep promises in order to work with others, and not even enough fundamental honesty to cause him embarassment when he changes policies with the tide.

Comment by Anon. Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:33 pm
His hypocrisy.

If you’re going to call yourself a reformer then stick to it. Don’t take giant campaign contributions from labor unions and then sweeten their contracts during negotiations. Same goes for the whole “outsider” thing and then appointing Zuke to a state board. Ineffectiveness was a close second to hypocrisy, but second nonetheless.

Comment by Boone's is Back Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:34 pm
All populist mouth, no governing hand.

Comment by RonOglesby Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:37 pm
His ineffectiveness.

He is a non-entity as a governor. He has proposed no bold initiatives, and if he has (I just don’t recall any) he has brought none of them to fruition. He does not demonstrate strong or inspiring leadership. No one really pays attention to him.

He reminds me of the kind of character actor in a 1950s rom-com movie who plays, for example, the small town mayor or Elks Club president, a role designed for comic relief, a figure everyone in the town considers a buffoon, but is well meaning and offends no one and therefore gets to assume the “leadership” position no one of real talent wants or cares about. As for an actual example of this, I’m thinking the actor Paul Ford, but there are others.

Comment by Conservative Republican Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:37 pm
Nothing.

It is impossible to dislike him when he does such a good job making us laugh.

Between stunts like Squeezy, cutting off legislator paychecks and his epic answers to media questions, Governor Quinn’s wonderful sense of humor keeps us laughing too hard to dislike him.

Comment by Formerly Known As... Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:38 pm
That he doesn’t have a primary.

Comment by A guy... Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:41 pm
Keyrock - I thought “The Cuback Amendment” had something to do with his being a Sox fan.

Comment by And I Approved This Message Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:46 pm
Unreliable/Unpredictable.

You can’t build a strategy around what he will approve or want, because it is always changing. Sometimes he is uber-populist, but sometimes he hears the voice of reason. At least with Blagojevich all you had to do was build a strategy that made him look good.

Comment by Just Me Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:46 pm
What is the one thing you dislike most about Gov. Pat Quinn?

Too erratic.

– MrJM

Comment by MrJM Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:47 pm
That he can’t be a leader. He is good at grandstanding, but he couldn’t find 60 votes to pass a bill saying Dec 25th will be known as Christmas Day”!!! A REAL LEADER would call the 4 Tops to the mansion and hand them a breakfast lunch and dinner menu. And tell them to choose all 3 meals ” cause none of you are leaving till we have agreed on a pension bill”!!

Comment by Secretariat Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:49 pm
Agree with RNUG but to put it in my own way-

Portraying himself as “one of the people’, fighting for the little guy, but consorting with the uber rich by pushing to break promises made to the people who did the work for the citizens of the state. Hypocrisy at its worst…

Comment by Roadiepig Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:51 pm
The fact that he was appointed by Blago - JUST KIDDING.

There are so many things to choose and others have so eloquently enumerated them. So I’ll discuss my biggest disappointment. That being the good will he squandered after taking over from the impeached Blago. We had seen his populist bomb-throwing propensities and knew that he was not the best administrator, but we had been so beat down by the Blago years we wanted him to succeed. We wanted him to be a leader. We wanted him to work with others to address the problems left behind by his crooked predecessor. Unfortunately, he has demonstrated that he’s not up to the task. He’s continued the morass we have endured in Illinois government since 1993.

Comment by Norseman Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 1:55 pm
In short, his ineffectiveness.

Comment by Ahoy! Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:00 pm
I can’t make up my mind if it’s his inability to make up his mind or his inability to follow through on decisions.

Comment by Aldyth Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:05 pm
His very poor choices in picking agency heads and staff members.

Comment by peacelover Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:08 pm
Dislike and distrust the man and the politician. I have known him too long. There is no detail too large or too obvious for him to overlook or ignore! Railing for pension ‘reform’ on behalf of seniors and education when most retirees are seniors and former educators! PQ is a simpleton, always has been from CUB until today!

Comment by Old and In The Way Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:12 pm
What was it that Lee Iacocca said? “Lead, follow, or get out of the way.”

Pat Quinn does all three simultaneously…

Comment by Cincinnatus Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:12 pm
Reminds me of all the Chicago Cubs managers, during my lifetime, who talk a good game but never gets the team to the World Series.

Comment by Buzzie Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:14 pm
FUMIGATE!

The governor is 2 dimensional. No depth. He is the master of populist slogans. Follow thru is either absent or counter-productive.

Comment by dupage dan Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:16 pm
@Cincinnatus

Pat Quinn makes wrong turns when leading, fails to follow when following and is perpetually in the way.

That said, form follows function, and Pat Quinn’s formlessness strikes me as being quite useful for the successful implementation of the Madigan Rules.

Comment by Bill White Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:20 pm
I support Pat Quinn. But what I like least is his support for the Madigan (pension) Plan, (which I hope gets stricken if ever passed), and his lack of support for the gambling expansion package that was so carefully and creatively assembled by legislators in both houses.

Comment by James Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:22 pm
His obstruction of gaming expansion. This state needs all the revenue it can get and I find his position on this issue the most incoherent and hypocritical of all positions he has. He’s made the case we desperately need revenue with his pension grandstanding and support for a tax increase. He’s been willing to change stripes on an illicit vice by signing the medical marijuana bill. And he’s willing to overlook church objections on gays so why pay attention to their position on gambling?

Comment by hisgirlfriday Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:31 pm
The several questionable hires of political hacks he has put into upper management over the years.

Comment by Dirt Diver Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:31 pm
-since he’s run for every office under the sun and fed out of the public trough as often and for as long as possible-

He’s a public servant, this is what he loves to do… public servants get paid by the public… He graduated from Northwestern Law School. Trust me, he could be nice and retired with a much bigger bank account if he wanted to work in the private sector. Money has never been important to him, or so it seems…

As for his worst quality… I think he speaks too much for “sound bites” and repeats himslef over and over. Definitelty no Slick Willy Clinton behind the podium…

Comment by Statey McGrady Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:32 pm
That dumb striped purple tie he always wears.

Comment by Sinister Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:35 pm
Yikes! That’s my bad everyone, how quickly I forgot.

Comment by Chucky Jay Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:38 pm
His insensitivity and lies pretends to be the man of the people when in reality he’s in it for PQ Governor. Basis his. staff, heads, circumvents hiring / raises for some, fund use, total mismanagement.

Comment by all the above plus Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:38 pm
That he’s mostly incompetent at governing, doesn’t understand separation of powers, but thinks he deserves another term.

Comment by sal-says Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:45 pm
His disregard for the constitution. The court struck down his attempt at manipulating the General Assembly by stopping paychecks, and his number one priority is to violate the constitutional clause regarding pensions. If a governor can’t uphold the constitution…..

Comment by ash Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:55 pm
He’s a great guy, and very good at a lot of things. He’s not good at Governor.

Comment by Chavez-respecting Obamist Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 2:59 pm
I have to second –Norseman’s– comment … Quinn has disappointed on so many levels.

Comment by RNUG Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 3:24 pm
That he continues to shaft the 1.5% or so of state government employees who are not the 98% in the union, or the 0.5% “special hires” that get raises.

Another year, yet another 0% increase for these Merit Compensation (HA!) and similar employees.

Why does he do it? Because he can, and, wants us to leave to appoint his hacks.

Comment by Algonquin J. Calhoun Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 3:29 pm
This sounds petty, by I cringe as he sort of shuffles into a room.

He just doesn’t carry himself with confidence.

It is one thing to be a terrible leader, pandering, etc. But that’s true for many politicians.

But that lack of confidence in the way he carries himself, or whatever it is, just bugs me. You are the Governor of Illinois. Learn how to walk into a room like you own it.

Comment by Skeeter Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 3:30 pm
Overall ineffectivess in his management of the state. Even on the issues he is “for”, he lacks any leadership and follow-through with action.

Comment by Jurgis Rudkus Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 3:33 pm
I will repeat Keyrock’s lament: “That he pretends to be a reformer.”

Comment by Shemp Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 3:45 pm
He’s a ‘gadfly’, and seems to relish the title. Someone tell him it is not a compliment.

Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 4:08 pm
can’t stand the whole populist thing. he wants to be an outsider but he is an insider through and through, so he comes across as a big phony. the longer he is in office, the more I can’t stand him.

Comment by Susiejones Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 4:17 pm
His willingness to permit anything in order to maintain his position through political expediency. He is heavily dependent upon several corrupt allies on the South side of Chicago and he has been allowing them to run amuck in return for votes. Cf. Chicago State University (Emil Jones Academy).

Comment by Just Wondering Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 4:21 pm
His complete governing incompetence. He has no ability to lead in the ILGA. Unlike even Rod, Pat has NO friends in the legislature - nobody who he can turn to to introduce legislation.

He also runs a keystone cops administration that has no clue how to properly manage personnel or appointments. It would be comical if it weren’t so damned important.

ARGH, it’s so inconceivably frustrating to have to deal with this Administration.

Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 4:41 pm
It’s the same problem I have with most politicians: They don’t seem to talk to “Americans” (no hyphen) enough during our elections.

That doesn’t mean that I do not understand that our Country is–and should continue to be, comprised of BOTH Citizens and non-Citizens. Or that our Government is not responsible for providing constituent services equally to Citizens and others who are here legally. Or that some non-Citizens are currently in the process of becoming Citizens. Or that we have no ex-pats. Or that everyone should suddenly forget from where they originated.

I’m just saying that there is a bunch of just plain, ol’ Americans who still live here, too. And…we vote, because we have the right to do so.

And whether true or not, the perceptions you sometimes weave to win “ethnic” votes make it seem as if you’re taking us for granted and even excluding us at times.

And that seems kind of silly because from a practical perspective, I’ll bet that the number of plain, ol’ Americans who live here has consistently grown, and continues to grow, as “newbies” transition, acclimate, and sometimes, eventually even choose to drop their hyphens.

And by remembering to speak to us directly more often, you might not only get more votes from those of us who are already voting, but you might even inspire and motivate those of us who already have the right, but have not yet exercised it to come out to vote…or even come out to vote more frequently.

Who knows? As an added benefit, you might even be accused some day of managing to help unite us even further.

And gosh, what a concept that would be for these here United States of America.

Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 4:54 pm
–That doesn’t mean that I do not understand that our Country is–and should continue to be, comprised of BOTH Citizens and non-Citizens. Or that our Government is not responsible for providing constituent services equally to Citizens and others who are here legally. Or that some non-Citizens are currently in the process of becoming Citizens. Or that we have no ex-pats. Or that everyone should suddenly forget from where they originated.–

What are you yammering on about? Spit it out.

Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 4:58 pm
I thought I did. What did you not understand? (And don’t forget that when I began Kindergarten, I didn’t speak a word of English…so TRY to be kind for a change.)

Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 5:02 pm
About 3 years ago, when he gave his Budget Office folks pay raises, but stiffed the rest of us Merit Comp slobs. That and the 24 furlough days gleaned from my salary right when it mattered for calculation of my retirement formula.

Comment by Anonymous1001 Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 5:14 pm
The man is very intelligent, but appears not very smart.

He has trouble sticking with his own clearly set direction, and too often dives into details. He’s then forced to constantly adjust as the realistic possibilities emerge.

Simpler general points, with brief repetition of same, would do wonders.

Comment by walkinfool Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 5:45 pm
His self-righteousness.

Comment by Joan P. Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 6:11 pm
Late for this, but - bulleted for clarity:

–That doesn’t mean that I do not understand that

*our Country is–and should continue to be, comprised of BOTH Citizens and non-Citizens.

*Or that our Government is not responsible for providing constituent services equally to Citizens and others who are here legally.

*Or that some non-Citizens are currently in the process of becoming Citizens.

*Or that we have no ex-pats.

*Or that everyone should suddenly forget from where they originated.–

Glad somebody understands that last point.

Comment by Excessively Rabid Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 7:11 pm
Sorry, Rabid. Are you agreeing, or are you being rabid about some grammatical error?

If it’s the latter, consider the spirit in which it was written–and try to stop spinning for a second, SpinMeister.

Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 7:19 pm
He “traded his old friends for new ones”. Something you don’t do in politics.

Comment by Fearless Freep Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 7:55 pm
I dislike his moral righteousness. Claims not to want to harm anyone but is quick to substitute his own moral “superiority” in place of that arrived at by consensus. And despite his claim to morality, I want to hear him address and apologize to the large number of short-term IL prisoners convicted of non-violent offenses and their families who have had to endure much greater family hardship and longer prison terms because he first cancelled IDOC good time for purely political reasons, and then now has IDOC miserly implementing awarding of new sentence credits to inmates. Quinn should be ashamed of the squalid conditions he has left the prisons to deteriorate in and the ways he is trying to hide their deplorable situation from the public. for all his morality; he does not care if he harms anyone and he does not take responsibility for his mistakes

Comment by sharon Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 8:06 pm
==About 3 years ago, when he gave his Budget Office folks pay raises, but stiffed the rest of us Merit Comp slobs. That and the 24 furlough days gleaned from my salary right when it mattered for calculation of my retirement formula.==

He gave them raises again a year ago, and didn’t give the rest of us furlough days, so things are looking up.

To the question — he will do and say anything to hold onto the office of governor, but has no interest whatsoever in actually being a governor.

Comment by Anon. Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 8:15 pm
Others obviously strongly disagree but Pat Quinn is a great man in many ways, really cares deeply about helping people in ALL facets of Society, and is a very hard-working, honest, reform-minded Governor. However, SO many of the same old problems in Illinois remain, and even with Pat Quinn’s indefatigable perseverance and commitment to reform and continued, thorough dedication to it, even in a best case (highly unlikely) scenario, four more years with him at the helm would only dent (maybe even only chip away) some of these old, serious, entrenched problems….

It just goes to show how truly difficult it IS–even for someone like Pat Quinn who’s devoted most of his professional life to doing it–to bring about REAL positive Change in large Governments like Illinois’ 5th-Most-Populous State in the Union’s version of it…!

Comment by Just The Way It Is One Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 8:21 pm
I don’t like or understand how a person no one likes to work with can run off all his primary competition and generate a three million dollar campaign war chest.

Comment by Makandadawg Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 9:53 pm
The eagerness to act like King John in those heady days before the Magna Carta ended unchecked executive power … particularly as it relates to pensions.

Comment by Smitty Irving Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 9:58 pm
lol, Makandadawg.

Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 11:24 pm
His is public speaking for all the reasons stated above, and the The Cutback Amendment, because I think it made the GA an even more partisan place.

===It just goes to show how truly difficult it IS===

Just The Way It Is One, you are absolutely right. If I have another complaint it’s that I wish the governor could speak openly and freely about “how truly difficult it IS” but that wouldn’t be wise or practical. It would only make things harder.

Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 11:30 pm
Sorry Rich, that last post was me.

Comment by MIghty M. Mouse Thursday, Oct 24, 13 @ 11:32 pm
I dislike the fact that if he loses to Rauner a year later we will be calling these “the good old days.”

Comment by Publius Friday, Oct 25, 13 @ 12:19 am
Everybody has strengths and weaknesses, considering what he inherited, PQ has attempted to do the right thing. His heart is in the right place for the common folks and he will be re-elected because they know he is better then the alternatives. What you see is what you get with PQ good man.

Comment by eastbound and down Friday, Oct 25, 13 @ 8:20 am
RNUG, articulated very well my thoughts in regards to what I think of Quinn. This so-called “Populist” Governor is quite willing to rob retirees of their 3% compounded COLAs–COLAs that are legally owed retirees.
Even if retirees continued to maintain our 3% COLAs, many of us are still going to have issues in trying to maintain our standard of living for ourselves and our spouses.
The bottom line is that as we get older some of our expenses will increase at a higher inflationary rate than for other segments of the Illinois population.. For example–health care

Tied into his agreeing to throw seniors underneath the bus is the fact that he is siding with certain Democratic and Republican leaders in agreeing that the US and Illinois Constitutions no longer matters when it comes to their political agenda.
Quinn, talks about a “pension emergency.” I do think if he and the Illinois politicians trash contract law and the Illinois Constitution by slashing retiree’s COLAs there is going to be a more significant crisis as a result—-we will have a constitutional crisis in the state

Comment by Earl Shumaker Friday, Oct 25, 13 @ 9:09 am
He comes across as being “too much of a survivor” mentality. He goes with a populist viewpoint whether he truly believes it is in the public’s best interest in order to curry votes for his next re-election campaign. I think that if we were able to ask Pat the issues that he really stands for, he would be thinking “what do you want me to be and say and that is what I truly stand for?” In other words, whatever it takes to get re-elected and yet appeal to the masses even if it is going to hurt them.
It may not be a fair assessment of Quinn but it is the image that I have of him.

Comment by Henry Clay Friday, Oct 25, 13 @ 9:28 am
His constant failure to speak directly about what pension reform means to current retirees.

Comment by georgeatt Friday, Oct 25, 13 @ 9:40 am