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* Wordslinger on White Sox manager Robin Ventura…
I think these [defeats] by the Twins are it for Robin. He was a weird choice by Jerry to begin with. He never wanted the job, He certainly doesn’t seem to want it now.
Managers ain’t all that, but he’s bringing absolutely nothing to the club.
Robin’s been asleep since he took over, and the Sox have been one of the worst fundamental teams in baseball during that time. Four more errors today, terrible at bats, terrible base running.
The Sox have the makings of a contender, but they’re all underachieving.
Somebody needs to light a fire under this team and give fans a reason to come to the ballpark now that it’s getting warmer, Sox fans don’t show up when they’re this bad, and that costs Jerry money.
Kenny and Ozzie had had a long, long, friendly talk on the field before the game a couple of weeks ago.
I think it will happen.
Ozzie in the dugout by June 1. Makes too much sense for a lot of reasons not to happen.
* The Question: Should the Sox dump Robin? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please.
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:20 pm
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Pink slip to Don Cooper first. The pitching staff have been a major disappointment, have been for years. Coop has been living off ‘05 for too long. If that doesn’t wake them up, then Ventura.
Comment by Bogey Golfer Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:23 pm
Too late to get Joe Maddon? I am not certain Ozzie is the right guy for the job. It was crazy town toward the end of his tenure.
Comment by JS Mill Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:25 pm
Voted “Too Early to Tell”
“Why?”
Give him until the All-Star break.
The ball club is underachieving, but the bar isn’t winning the division, but to get to .500 and build off that.
At the Break, you have 70-75 games left, if the needle is pointing downward, it’s like a mini reboot to get ready for 2016.
The Brewers fired their skipper. Ok, now for 89% of the season, most likely not a playoff ball club there, too long of a period to be speculating on 2016 for the GM and management.
“To Early to Tell”. Get the Club back hovering around .500, then you can look to 2016. Firing him now, too much of the season for confusing angst.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:27 pm
I absolutely agree that the Sox should let go of Ventura. While he was a good ballplayer, I’ve never been sold on him as a manager. Clearly, his failure to have the Sox ready to play, some of the fundamental mistakes and failure to challenge controversial plays speak for themselves. No way I would hire Ozzie back however - I’d pick up Ron Gardenhire in a heartbeat.
Comment by Stones Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:28 pm
voted “no” only because the thought of Ozzie Guillen: The Sequel makes me queasy.
Comment by no more ozzie Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:28 pm
In all of sports, I’m not sure the manager means less in any sport than baseball.
What is a new manager going to do? “Hey guys, when I tell you to go get hits, I MEAN IT!”
Ride it out and get a new GM to bring in more talent.
Comment by Gooner Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:30 pm
Yes, he should have been sacked after he didn’t ask for a replay in Detroit when the winning run scored and the guy was actually out.
The team keeps making basic mistakes, base running mistakes and while you can point the finger at underachieving players, a fish rots from the head down. And it’s easier to fire the manager than 25 players who aren’t listening.
Comment by Ravenswood Right Winger Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:30 pm
take Gardenhire in a minute—a pro manager—
Comment by jmac Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:31 pm
It’s time, it’s as simple as that. I hope they do it soon. Jerry is very loyal unlikely it will happen.
Comment by Annon3 Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:31 pm
Remember when the B’Hawks replaced their coach who was a popular player for the franchise(Savard). The new coach went on and won 2 Stanley Cups. Get rid of Robin now and go for Gardenhire. Not saying they will win 2 World Series but the change should do them some good.
Comment by Orland (D) Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:32 pm
I think he’s got this homestand to buy himself some more time. If nothing changes this week, heads could roll.
Comment by Dean Keaton Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:33 pm
BRING BACK OZZIE!
Comment by VanillaMan Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:34 pm
Went with too early to tell, but really felt like going with yes. There are a ton of new pieces on this team, and sometimes it takes time for things to gel. It’s May 4th, and there’s still a lot of time left, but have to agree with OW on timing. If things don’t start to turnaround by the mid-summer classic, it might be time to make a change. Disagree with OW on the goals. If the goal were not to win now, Jerry would’t not have opened up the checkbook like he did.
Comment by Juice Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:36 pm
Word –
I couldn’t have said it better. Compare the Cardinals’ understanding and execution of fundamentals to the Sox? Nope. No comparison.
Every Sox hitter is behind in every count and they wonder why they’re dead last in OBA? And then I have to stomach Harrelson’s whining about one strike call to Joe Mauer as the reason the Sox will finish last in the Central?
Can you imagine telling your prospective boss you’ve had no experience for the position that’s been offered to you?
There. I needed that. So much more to say but I’m done.
Comment by Wallinger Dickus Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:37 pm
- Gooner -,
I always went under the premise that you win 50 games and you lose 50 games, no matter the manager.
That leaves 62 games a manager is worth “something”. For me, in reading, the number “10 games” are won/lost by a manager.
So, in the window of 62 games, that’s 16% of ges that matter. Pretty big, considering.
Also, check this out on manager’s “worth”
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/45385/how-many-wins-is-a-manager-worth
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:38 pm
It’s too early.
Most sabermetricians believe that managers have only a minor influence in the outcome of games. I’m not so sure. I think that Tony La Russa, Joe Torre, Terry Francona and Bruce Bochy all had huge roles in guiding their squads to multiple series titles. Joe Maddon coaxed as much talent as humanly possible out of a team that had a payroll a quarter the six of the Yankees and BoSox. I suppose the opposite is also true. A poorly-prepared manager on a talented team can be the death knell.
I know he’s in his 4th year. But is Ozzie Guillen really the answer? What if he comes back and Rick Hahn trades Jeff S (not even gonna try) to a contender (if the ChiSox are further out of contention)? What if he takes over the team and Detroit adds another power arm? I’m not sure that the manager is the only ill on the team.
Comment by Team Sleep Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:47 pm
Oswego,
That’s an interesting article and I think it proves my point. In a full season, a manager may be worth 4 games.
In the NFL, I would put coaching at at least four games (or 1/4 of a season). An NFL coach creates a system that wins or loses.
I think the same is true in soccer. Arsene Wenger is worth about that same amount if not more. That’s why Arsenal has been in the top four of the league for the past 10 years, no matter the level of talent that they signed.
You get a few days like today where one soccer team simply outclasses the other (Arsenal over Hull), but even where the players our outclassed, a good manager in soccer can keep things close or even win (Chelsea in the Champions League a few years ago, or the Greeks in the European championship).
Comment by Gooner Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:50 pm
The season is slipping away…the time to make a change is now.
But really, is a new manager gonna make any difference?
Comment by Deep South Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:52 pm
I think Ozzie’s been humbled. He lost his power struggle with Kenny and his Marlin’s stint was a fiasco.
There’s no question he’s an excellent game day manager who can run a pitching staff and demand that his players be fundamentally sound and accountable.
Gardenhire’s solid, but he wont fire up the fan base like Ozzie, and the Sox are going to need some help at the gate the way things are going.
If Ozzie can concentrate on the job, and put a muzzle on that goofy son of his, it could work.
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:53 pm
Yes, they need a new direction. Ozzie might be fun again; however it wont matter this year with both the Tigers and Royals blazing hot. Sox better look to the future.
Comment by BlameBruceRauner Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:53 pm
- Gooner -
Four games?
Read a little deeper.
http://camdendepot.blogspot.com/2014/03/how-many-games-is-buck-showalter-worth.html?m=1
The low was +14…
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:54 pm
As the saying goes, you can’t fire the team so the manager has to go. I agree with OW to an extent as to the number of wins/losses attributable to a manager. However, the firing of what appears to be a popular manager in the eyes of the players would send a message of accountability to where it belongs-the players.
Loved Robin as a player and I begged Jerry to keep him at the time as a player. Robin as a manager has been objectively a disappointment.
They have looked pathetically listless and need a collective shock to turn this thing around.
Comment by Tommydanger Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:55 pm
I’m all for firing Robin. This is getting embarrassing.
Bring back Ozzie? Sure! He has a ring. How many managers are out there waiting for a job to open who can say that?
Comment by jerry 101 Monday, May 4, 15 @ 2:55 pm
Fung is winning and winning is fung! Yes Robin needs to go. Ozzie? Okay. What else ya got? Gardy? Okay. Anyone else?! Please….
Comment by Ducky LaMoore Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:02 pm
I’m not sure how many games a good manager wins for you but I do know this…bad managers lose games for you. The season that started with the promise of a better team this year and has played downright poorly. Need to do something soon or we’ll be last in the league in attendance.
Comment by Stones Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:05 pm
I voted not yet. I’m not heavily into the Sox, but I think the guy should get until the break to try and turn it around. From watching a couple games, these guys look listless and uninspired most of the time.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:05 pm
Voted Yes fire. It is too bad that Robin is not working out. But have to agree with many that he is not the right type of guy to be a manager. Bring back Ozzie for the rest of this year and then make a decision on the long term after the season is over. The Sox need to content and have a reason for fans to come to the ballpark. What do you have to lose?
Comment by CLJ Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:09 pm
Yes.
A contending ball club with an ineffective manager is like a new car with under-inflated tires.
Comment by Juvenal Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:11 pm
the pitching has been a huge problem lately, which is strange. the new hitting coach is not impressing, but the pitching is more worrisome. not ready to flip the switch yet.
Comment by Amalia Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:11 pm
No. Because if they do, that means my Cubs will have some real competition for the best baseball team in the city, and I really, really enjoy watching my buddies squirm.
Comment by The Muse Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:18 pm
You White Sox fans take this baseball stuff far too seriously. Cubs fans can show you the way, sit back, drink massive amounts of beer, hope to find a bathroom, and pay limited attention to the game in front of you. That is the key to surviving and enjoying Chicago baseball.
Comment by Rod Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:18 pm
Voted yes!
OZZIE, OZZIE, OZZIE!
OY! OY! OY!
Comment by WhoKnew Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:21 pm
There’s no comparison between an NFL coach and a baseball manager. An NFL coach has to prepare three separate units for all contingencies and matchups then make choices for about 150 plays a game, based on down, distance, time, score, other teams tendencies, etc.
And I’d agree that all things being equal a baseball manager, spinning the wheels, is worth maybe a few games a year.
But with this Sox team, all things are not equal. They are not ready to play, any day. They’re dragging like it’s the middle of August. That’s on Robin.
Also on Robin; he’s lost control of that clubhouse.
How in the world does he let Chris Sale get in the middle of a brawl on the field, throwing haymakers with his left hand?
How does he let Chris Sale charge into the KC clubhouse looking to get into another fight?
That’s a top five pitcher in all of baseball. How does the manager let that happen? Sales breaks his hand in some stupid fight, season over.
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:21 pm
Bring back Gene Lamont!
Comment by Michael Westen Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:25 pm
===How in the world does he let Chris Sale get in the middle of a brawl on the field, throwing haymakers with his left hand?===
Even Crash Davis says never hit a man with your pitching hand.
Losing the clubhouse is very problematic. If a culture needs to change, the culture on the Southside needs to be about being a professional, and accountability to yourself and each other.
Tough to just start that up on a random Wednesday nite game, after changing skippers(?)
I also doubt Crash would is still managing in Visalia, if he got that job…
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:29 pm
Ozzie is the last person anyone could want to be manager.Remember his quiting on the Sox with two games left in the season? Or his denigration of the team’s players? Or his public negotiating for the managers job in Florida while he was still under contract with the Sox? Please don’t bring him back, Jerry!
Comment by John Parnell Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:35 pm
Oswego,
That 14 was in a career, per your chart (ranged from 14 to 47 and the 47 was over 10 years).
The best was at 5.7 per year.
You can be in the top 10 and still only add 3.5 wins a season.
Comment by Gooner Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:36 pm
After more reflection, bringing Ozzie back might boost attendance a little. But I still think we are going to see plenty of bad baseball from the Sox. I love them. They are my team. And boy do they stink. I think I was the only Sox fan who cringed when they traded for Smarginal. Hopefully he will turn it around, for the sake of trade bait.
Comment by Ducky LaMoore Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:40 pm
St Louis Cardinals are 18 and 6, with the best record so far in MLB. Soo,…. sorry what was the question again?
Comment by Slippin' Jimmy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:45 pm
- Gooner -,
You win the Divsion by 2 games, you win the Wild Card by 3 games, makes a huge difference.
Look at Wild Card Winners, and World Series winners.
Overachieving what is projected for the ball club in a 16% window of games that matter… matters.
In-Game managers, good Clubhouse managers, disciplinarians, numbers-driven managers…
It’s about winning more games, and 4 to 10 games greater than projected, at the 3 year clip, at the single snapshot clip matters to the 25 guys in the clubhouse.
The manager is also with these guys every day for about 180 days in a season, every day dragging on from the last. Managing a ball club for 162 games, and overachieving projections that are greater than a three game set in May, it’s huge in that small window when it does matter.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:46 pm
Robin was a noble experiment, but he’s way past the sell-by date. Has everyone forgotten the spring optimism already. This team looks dead, dead, dead. Ventura’s a good guy, but sometimes you just need a change. Gardenhire or his type would be better than Ozzie.
Oh,and Harrelson’s time has been up for years.
Comment by orzo Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:56 pm
Oswego, a good groundskeeper is probably worth 2 or 3 games year.
The manager is not irrelevant, but compared to other sports, it isn’t close.
Comment by Gooner Monday, May 4, 15 @ 3:57 pm
===Oswego, a good groundskeeper is probably worth 2 or 3 games year.===
Only if the manager manages personnel tailored to the ball park (slanted base lines for bunts, high grass infields for a track team lineup, or ground ball pitchers)
If you think Quade and Maddon are separated by 3 games, I can’t help you.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:01 pm
Robin must fly, but no Ozzie…start anew!
Comment by D.P.Gumby Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:17 pm
Nah, don’t fire Robin. Who else is going to protect you from the inevitable Nolan Ryan attacks? It would be nice, though, if the White Sox (and the rest of the AL) dumped the DH and went back to playing real baseball. One can dream.
Comment by Urbs In Horto Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:18 pm
Too early to fire Ventura. Players seem listless, and he needs to light a fire under them (other than brawling). Replace him with Edgar “Sunshine” Rentaria?
Comment by Louis G Atsaves Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:19 pm
Maybe that noogie Robin suffered at the hands/fists of Nolan Ryan did more damage than we know.
Comment by Tommydanger Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:24 pm
Oswego, I went off the evidence you presented.
The very best gets you about 3.5 games a year.
That’s not my number. It is your number.
Comment by Gooner Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:24 pm
- Louis G. Atsaves -,
Or even Rick Renteria…
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:24 pm
Three games sway a team with a nice record, to a playoff team in the Tournment.
That’s a weekend series.
So I guess Renteria, or Sveum, or Quade are equal to Robin Ventura?
Ventura is only 3 games better than Girardi in managing their ball clubs?
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:28 pm
Robin not being someone that yells and screams has never been a problem for me. Plenty of successful managers have been low key just look at the current Cub skipper. The talkers and screamers work in the short term but tend to wear out their welcome as players inevitably tune them out. You can’t blame the manager for a player having trouble hitting a 95 mph fastball or having trouble throwing his curve for strikes in his last outing. You can blame him for the lack of execution and errors. The Sox continue to throw to the wrong base, make fielding errors and don’t look good running the bases. Managers usually get too much credit when a team does well (Ozzie) and probably too much of the blame which is probably the case here. I disagree with those that say that managers don’t make a difference. They ensure that the team is ready to play fundamental baseball and is responsible for the workplace atmosphere. Just look what a different and aggressive team the Royals were last year. As much as I love Robin and the idea of a home grown manager, It is probably time for a different voice in the locker room.
Comment by Ridgeway Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:31 pm
Seems like Ventura’s been in over his head his whole tenure as manager. I was extremely optimistic with the changes made over the winter and then the yellow flags started waving during spring training. There’s no reason to wait any longer to make a managerial change. Does anybody really think “Rockin’ Robin” can lead the Sox into the playoffs? … ever ?
Comment by forwhatitsworth Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:37 pm
– a good groundskeeper —
Reminded me of the days when the Cubs had Ron Cey at third and Larry Bowa at short at the end of their careers. They let the infield grass grow so long to slow down the ball it looked like a prairie restoration project.
Then they’d go play the Cards at giant old Busch and that fast, hard carpet, lol. It was painful to watch.
It was even worse in that cavernous outfield, where the Cubs always seemed to have the likes of Dave Kingman or Bobby Murcer or Keith Moreland. Every line drive was a potential inside the park home run for the Cards.
Comment by Wordslinger Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:43 pm
Robin needs to go. Ozzie was scary when he left. I don’t know how much he’s mellowed or if he understands yet how much a detriment to him his loud mouth sons were. But Ozzie in the dugout would re energize fans and hopefully get some fans back in the seats. Ozzie in house for the remainder of the 10th anniversary year? Yes, please. Definitely do NOT hire any of the Cubs’ reject managers.
Comment by Responsa Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:44 pm
I’m a yes on this, but I don’t know if Ozzie is the way out. Kenny and him were vinegar and oil. It just isn’t going to mix no matter how hard you shake.
I said a while back that Kenny pushing Ozzie out meant he was the one who takes ownership of this team’s direction and it hasn’t yielded us a consistent contender. The coach is one problem, but it’s not the only one.
Comment by Tom B. Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:45 pm
===The coach is one problem, but it’s not the only one. ===
Agreed.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, May 4, 15 @ 4:49 pm
As a Cubs fan: Katie Spindell, Katie Spindell, Katie Spindell, Katie Spindell!
Comment by LizPhairTax Monday, May 4, 15 @ 5:33 pm
Voted no.
Why? I’m a Cubs fan!!
Comment by Big Muddy Monday, May 4, 15 @ 5:34 pm
Friday, in a 1-0 loss, Ventura put in a pinch runner then did not have him attempt to steal second. The pinch runner was forced out at second followed by a single. Why put in a fast guy as a pinch runner and not run him? Geez, Robin. Wake up!!!
Comment by DuPage Dave Monday, May 4, 15 @ 5:59 pm
I texted my brother and another guy yesterday pretty much everything Word wrote. Not that I love the idea, but I can totally see this ball club bringing Ozzie back. The worst thing they could do is hire Jim Thome; it would be the exact same Robin experience.
Comment by Jose Abreu's Next Homer Monday, May 4, 15 @ 6:10 pm
Cooper would have to be let go also if Ozzie comes back so that’s not happening. Remember Cooper and Ozzie also had a big blowout . Jerry won’t eat 2 more years of both Cooper and Robin. It’s gotta be Gardenhire and that’s not bad either
Comment by South Sider Monday, May 4, 15 @ 6:25 pm
The Coop- Ozzie thing was over a contract issue as I recall. Even at the time, Ozzie said Coop was a good coach. Sometimes, following a divorce the parties realize it was a mistake–an over reaction to something– and remarry. After this much time that could happen with Ozzie and Coop maybe.
Comment by Responsa Monday, May 4, 15 @ 6:51 pm
Re: my previous post.
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/7117883/ozzie-guillen-fires-back-chicago-white-sox-pitching-coach-don-cooper
Comment by Responsa Monday, May 4, 15 @ 6:54 pm
they should have never hired him in the first place
Comment by foster brook Monday, May 4, 15 @ 8:53 pm
Agree, Ventura should go. Ozzie is not the answer though. Ozzie is the one that would allow Chris Sale to break his left hand throwing haymakers.
Comment by soccertease Monday, May 4, 15 @ 9:38 pm
So the Cubs have a better record then the Sox? Am I in some sort of parallel universe?
Comment by Just Me Tuesday, May 5, 15 @ 12:02 am
Oh, c’mon Sox fans! Robin has a comeback in him. I can feel it. What’s the worst that could happen while you wait?
Comment by Barton Lorimor Tuesday, May 5, 15 @ 8:12 am