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Question of the day

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It’s clear that former Gov. Rod Blagojevich and his legal team believed that after an 18-month wait, an appellate court ruling on his case would not only bring good news — but could even bring Blagojevich home.

Instead, the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals delivered a decision that on the one hand threw out Blagojevich’s 14-year prison sentence, but on the other, suggested that if he’s sentenced to that term again, they’d uphold it.

The 23-page ruling at one point even suggested that prosecutors had the right to ask for more prison time for the former governor. […]

“He’s going to get a sentence reduction in my opinion,” said Chicago defense attorney Ed Genson. “It’s just logical. He’s been in a long time. The braggadocio isn’t there, he’s very humble from what I see. . . . If they really wanted to give him the same time, they should retry him. Therefore, I think there’s a justification in reducing the sentence.”

* The Question: Should time be knocked off Blagojevich’s sentence? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please, including what amount of reduction, if any, should happen.

survey solution

posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:22 pm

Comments

Yes, but not too much. Zagel’s sentence was on the low end. Technically he doesn’t have to.

Comment by Chicago Cynic Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:24 pm
Nope.
He embarrassed Bill and that means he has to serve his time!

Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:29 pm
I voted yes but only because I would love for him to be free and providing daily entertainment on the evening news. Probably not the best reason, but it would still be the best reality television around.

Comment by Just Me Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:29 pm
No. His sentences for the multiple counts were concurrent, not consecutive. Knocking off a couple of the counts doesn’t mean the full sentence for the other counts upheld shouldn’t be served in full.

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:30 pm
I voted Yes. For all he took from us, he gave us an equal measure of entertainment.

Comment by John A Logan Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:30 pm
Yesterday, I said time served would be good enough. I still believe that for many reasons but I state the most important. After seeing the press conference yesterday. I would do it for his family, especially for his daughters. After seeing his one daughter breakdown I think he has served enough time to understand that what he did was morally wrong even if he thought he was legally right in doing what he did. For his family’s sake he has served enough time.

Comment by CB Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:30 pm
I personally know of someone who was convicted of manslaughter. He pled guilty, and only served 12 years with time off for good behavior. In my opinion, 14 years is entirely too long of a sentence for what Blagojevich did. If nothing else, put him on home confinement so he stops costing taxpayers so much money.

Comment by Old Shepherd Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:30 pm
Also, he provided enough new subscribers to pay off Rich’s boat.

Comment by John A Logan Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:31 pm
I’m not a fan of Blago’s, but I am a fan of fairness.
If the sentence wasn’t some arbitrary number picked out of a hat, but was actually calculated based on each count of his conviction, then if you reduce the counts of his conviction, it stands to reason that you would reduce his sentence.

I don’t know how much, because I don’t know how each count was weighted when calculating the original sentence, but it should be reduced some.

Comment by NoFanOfBlago Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:32 pm
==I would do it for his family, ==

His family was already given a break when Patty wasn’t charged

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:33 pm
If the prosecutors decide to drop the charges then a reduction is warranted. If they retry him and he gets convicted again, his sentence should stand.

I’d prefer they drop the charges and knock 24 months off.

Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:35 pm
No. Politicians in Illinois need to know that they can serve long sentences in unpleasant places when they break the law. Too many have gotten away with too much.

Comment by Aldyth Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:36 pm
Yes, but he must spend two years on probation in the Pacific NW, at a lumber company, rolling logs.

Comment by Nick Danger Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:36 pm
His wife and lawyers still claim he’s completely innocent. Patti also dragged her daughter in front of the cameras, even knowing she was upset. No, if they want to continue playing Blagojevich as the victim for the press, let Judge Zagel decide. If Blagojevich can convince him he’s truly contrite, I could see knocking off a couple of years.

Comment by Wensicia Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:37 pm
==but was actually calculated based on each count of his conviction==

His sentence didn’t work like that. Each count received its own sentence, but they weren’t added up to reach the final number. Instead he was allowed to serve them all at the same time (concurrently)

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:37 pm
Yes. He’s a broken man. Release him now — but to a mental health facility. See if he actually needs professional help, and if so, let him have it.

Comment by Nick Name Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:38 pm
No. He wasnt trying to siphon off a little here and there from some fat cats. These were brazen schemes to enrich himself by taking advantage of those who were vulnerable.

Comment by Langhorne Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:38 pm
If George Ryan did 6.5 years and Jesse Jackson III was in and out before you could blink an eye, seems like knocking Blago’s sentence down to a total of 7-8 years would not be objectionable.

Comment by SAP Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:39 pm
I said “yes” because I despise prosecutors overcharging to gain leverage on any defendant. There needs to be some recompense to the overcharged defendant that fights the overreach and prevails. The only recompense possible in this case is to reduce the sentence.

Comment by Lycurgus Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:39 pm
It’s very easy to say “no” but I think he should probably get less time given that those 5 counts probably provided some weight in the consideration of giving him 14 years in the first place.

Comment by The Muse Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:39 pm
Living in Springfield we see Republicans who became multi-millionaires with their connections to state government. One bought some Real Estate in the early 80s for a $1M and is leasing it to the State of Illinois for $3.5M a year with a triple net lease. Nice!
The pay-to-play stories are legionary. As far as I know, Rod never cashed in personally, but was sentenced to 14 years by a Federal Judge who was Jim Thompson’s Director of the Illinois State Police during a period when this thievery was going on. How crazy is that???

One of the multi-millionaire Republicans involved with this case was convicted and served less than a year. Rod should serve at most 5 to 6 years.

Comment by Louis Howe Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:40 pm
Time served with the stipulation that he not be allowed to talk to the press for a further 10 years

Comment by anon Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:40 pm
Thousands upon thousands of non-violent offenders are serving inflated prison sentences in prisons throughout Illinois. Why should this guy, who once held a children’s hospital hostage for direct cash, get a break?

Comment by horse w/ no name Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:42 pm
He should have received the same sentence as George Ryan, with maybe a year tacked on for falsely testifying. 7-8 years is what it should have been then. This is a good chance to rectify the mistake.

Comment by Michael Westen Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:44 pm
Take 14 down to 10 total. Credit for time served. That is sufficient for his crimes.

Comment by anon Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:45 pm
I think anon. 2:40’s suggestion would be super effective and painful for Blago, and save the taxpayers the costs of his incarceration.

Comment by burbanite Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:45 pm
Depends, is Just for Men included in the deal?

Comment by Jack Ryan 2004 Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:49 pm
No. As the appeals court pointed out, even dropping these charges, there remain enough convictions on charges to more than justify his current sentence.

Comment by walker Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:50 pm
I voted no… but for an admittedly unfair reason, that being: No sentence would be long enough for the destruction he (with the help of Rezko and their greedy pals) unleashed upon state government. His belief that ANYONE can run a complex government organization efficiently and effectively not only did irreparable harm to our state, but it has now emboldened our new governor to believe that, as well. The key to E&E government has always been dedicated public servants in the right places… not wholesale delegation to contractors with no skin in the game.

Comment by Word on the Street Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:50 pm
Since he is now guilty of five fewer counts than when he was sentenced, a reduction in sentence is appropriate. I’d say the same for anyone.

Comment by nona Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:51 pm
Hell no. Illinois, to maintain its image, needs to have at least one governor imprisoned at any one time. To date, Rauner has only painted himself into a self imposed corner.

Comment by vole Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:52 pm
No. During the original sentencing, the Judge thought that the sentencing guidelines were too harsh and knocked time off from the guidelines.

Comment by Huh? Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:55 pm
Yes, but as someone else said, just a little. I I wasn’t thrilled with the way Zagel handled the case and if this was the sentence he came up with when all the convictions were on the table, he should probably shave a little now that some are off.

Comment by lake county democrat Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:55 pm
I voted yes. The attempted sale of the Senate seat vacated by the POTUS was the most sensational of the charges. Without those convictions, and assuming the original sentence was appropriate, the sentence on the remaining convictions should be less. But not a lot less, since the original term was for concurrent sentences. I would suggest knocking of a couple years.

Comment by Downstate Weed Chewing Hick Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 2:58 pm
No. He was found guilty. The sentence was given. The system did its work.

Comment by Carhart Bob Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:04 pm
I’m shocked it is this close. I voted NO! He is a convicted felony and the judge sentenced him to much less than he could of. Please share a link with his own words showing remorse regret or an apology. He still thinks he did NOTHING wrong. He shouldn’t be rewarded with less time.

Comment by Hoping for Rational Thought Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:06 pm
Ok, I approached this two separate ways;

First and foremost, even with the remaining counts untouched, the sentence is well within the guidelines of sentencing.

That’s my starting point; even now, well within the window.

“Should”? I felt that a great deal of how Rod was sentenced, abd the length of the sentence was brought upon Rod by his own actions, and his own words, from indictment all the way through conviction and waiting for sentence.

There comes a time, when you not only cut your loses, you own your failures. Rod did neither, and that’s something that cost him.

All things being equal, “Yes” would be the logical choice, a wise choice.

However, Rod is/was his own worse enemy, all the way till the end.

I voted “No”, as I can’t reconcile going out of the sentencing window with Rod’s behavior throughout his legal processes.

I feel for the daughters, I truly, truly, do. This is all Rod’s doing, and going outside the guidelines seems like a stretch.

Sadly.

Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:06 pm
No- he is still a disgrace to the good citizens who elected him.

Comment by Liberty Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:08 pm
I voted Yes but was divided. The appellate opinion is right under the law. It is impossible to sort out these political deals from corruption.
His sentence without these issues is a little steep, but I would like to see at least 10 years actually served. Judge Zagel may this some carful consideration but has wide latitude to keep it the same.
Hopefully this is nearing the end of headlines with his name in it.

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:08 pm
I’d be fine with it being reduced to the 8-year range, provided the terms of release prohibited him from using hair dye.

In all seriousness though, my reasons for reduction are philosophical and I actually hate Rod for myriad reasons - I just think it’s too long for the crime. Ryan got 6 and actually had benefits. Rod got no real benefit and received 14. To the person who suggested that the sentence not be reduced because there are lots of non-violent offenders serving time, I’d suggest that multiple wrongs don’t make a right, and that our prison system shouldn’t be clogged with many of those offenders. Take it a step further, Keith Farnham, dying yes, got 8 years for child porn (with the likelihood that he actually offended against children as well) - is what Rod did really worse than that?

Comment by Joe Bidenopolous Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:10 pm
I voted yes. If I could mandate he would be forbidden to jog through my neighborhood or give tv interviews for a number of years I’d let him out today. Give him a bus ticket back to Chicago. A slow bus.

Comment by IrishPirate Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:11 pm
===or give tv interviews for a number of years I’d let him out today. ===

Same here.

Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:11 pm
His sentence should be proportionately reduced by the number of corrupt Illinois pols currently holding office.

Comment by anon Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:15 pm
===I’d be fine with it being reduced to the 8-year range,===

I would have been fine with that as the original sentence. I’m sure Rod added on from 8 to get to 14.

===or give tv interviews for a number of years I’d let him out today. ===

I would have Rod sit for 6 months to “think” on that, THEN those terms apply.

Let Rod really understand for a “short” period of time what that really, really means…

Then, let him out.

Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:20 pm
Let him out. The system is overcrowded w non violent offenders.. He can consult the new Gov on Dem tactics.

Comment by Bigger Fish Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:23 pm
Yes. Presumably, when the judge decided on the current sentence, he looked at the 18 convictions and calculated the amount of time that should be served. Now, there are 13 convictions. Unless Judge Zagel can say that he would have given the exact same sentence if there had only been the 13 convictions, I don’t see how the sentence can stay the same (even though the 7th Circuit said it doesn’t have to be).

Comment by 60611 Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:24 pm
*edit to my previous post* (even thought the 7th Circuit said it doesn’t have to be reduced).

Comment by 60611 Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:25 pm
It pained me, but I voted yes because I felt like I should be consistent in my belief that we should reduce our prison population especially for for non-violent criminals.

I can’t stand the guy, but he, and people just like him, have families and releasing him isn’t going to cause people any harm (just like thousands of other non-violent criminals).

I’m going to go take a bath and a shot of whiskey now for saying this.

Comment by Ahoy! Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:26 pm
I was a direct report away from this lunatic. He is the reason I cam “Former State Employee II”. After 19.5 wonderful productive years at the State, I had to leave (I couldn’t even hang on the last 6 months, for the magical paid health insurance during retirement). The things his administration tried to make the agency heads to was insanity at best. My computer was seized, I had to produce 24k emails. I will never ever forgive this animal for what he’s done to this state, me and my family.

Comment by Former State Employee II Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:28 pm
Crain’s has compiled some of their best Blago toons.
Last one is great.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Avis=CG&Dato=20150722&Kategori=MULTIMEDIA02&Lopenr=722009999&ref=PH#16

Comment by IrishPirate Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:29 pm
No.

From day one he schemed to enrich himself and his cronies. He never really took his job seriously, always trying to avoid decisions.

He couldn’t find time to consider the list of pardons and clemency petitions.

Politicians repeatedly bend and break the rules. They enrich themselves in and out of office. Time to send a message.

And finally. I’m sure there’s lots of people in prison with wives and kids. Should all of them get out early?

Comment by Sir Reel Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:29 pm
Blago made his bed now he has to lay in it.

Comment by foster brooks Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:31 pm
Time served. Oh, Liberty, the “good citizens” who elected him the second time are far more at fault than Rod is. They knew what he was by then.

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:34 pm
Blogo’s talk never hurt anybody, at most he should have been sentenced to community service where his skills could have been put to good use. Save the jail cells for rapists and murders.

Comment by William j Kelly Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:39 pm
I voted yes, (reduce his sentence) but I honestly wish for a new sentence that results in a reduction of perhaps 30 days. It would send a clear message that he was guilty of serious crimes against the public trust, and that the prosecutorial overreach on a few other instances was not warranted and needs to stop.

Comment by Justin Observer Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:42 pm
Let him out, but put him on home confinement for the next 4 to 6 years.

Comment by Mama Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:47 pm
Let him out, but he should be barred for life from running for any public office.

Comment by Mama Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:50 pm
===he should be barred for life from running for any public office===

Because he was removed from office, he is already barred for life from running for any state or local position.

Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:57 pm
No, but that’s because I’m of the opinion that Blagojevich went so far above and beyond the pale that capital punishment should have been on the table as a lesson to others.

Comment by GraduatedCollegeStudent Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:58 pm
I think we need a compromise between appropriate punishment/pain for Blago and not spending a large amount of tax dollars to keep him locked up.

We let him out on the condition that he has to use the Flowbee home hair cutting system and can’t dye his hair. No one can cut his hair but himself, the Flowbee attachment and a vacuum cleaner. Also can’t be more than 3/8 of an inch long.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowbee

This should keep him off the airwaves forever.

Comment by IrishPirate Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:02 pm
William J. Kelly — his skills? You never knew him, did you?

Comment by Soccermom Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:03 pm
=== GraduatedCollegeStudent - Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 3:58 pm:

No, but that’s because I’m of the opinion that Blagojevich went so far above and beyond the pale that capital punishment should have been on the table as a lesson to others.===

Wow man. You need to get the schedule for the next Museum rally. /s

Comment by A guy Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:09 pm
Not only no but hell no. Blago got his break when Patty wasn’t charged. Who cares if he’s contrite now after several years in prison. Getting caught makes most crooks contrite at sentencing but not Blago. He went on a farewell press conference tour.

The only reason he didn’t profit from from his misdeeds was 1) he was an incompetent crook and 2) the Tribune blew the fed’s cover before he could sell the senate seat.

His sentence is still in the range for the convictions remaining. Let him serve his time.

Comment by Leave a Light on George Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:10 pm
Voted ‘No’. No reduction; nada; zilch; nil; bubkis. Is my opinion clear?

Comment by Bogey Golfer Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:10 pm
===Wow man. You need to get the schedule for the next Museum rally. /s===

Well, to be honest I think corruption/white collar crime in general should get capital punishment after a certain threshold. The current setup doesn’t seem to deter folks much.

Comment by GraduatedCollegeStudent Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:20 pm
I voted yes. I think the first sentence was heavy handed. He has lost everything already.

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:23 pm
I voted yes, in hopes he’ll get out early so he can be the subject of future Capitol Fax caption contests.

Comment by Streator Curmudgeon Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:25 pm
No- He needs to serve the time. To often, these crimes go unpunished.

Comment by JS Mill Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:26 pm
I voted yes but now I’m thinking no. I feel for the daughters but like someone said, lots of people in prison have families that suffer. A long home confinement wouldn’t be a bad idea. Patty seems to still think he did nothing wrong which is offensive.

Comment by Decatur gal Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:27 pm
Kelly, Blago’s “talk” sure harmed his own family, dontcha think? Read the post from Former State Employee for an example of what his joke of an “administration” did to hundreds of decent people in State Government. If you would pull your head out of your bung, you might like the view better.

To the Post, and understanding that the Sentencing Guidelines are now voluntary, I would be inclined to reduce his sentence, but I have the nagging feeling that it would just mean he would be out on the street peddling his baloney to the first dude with a camera he can find. I voted No.

Comment by Arthur Andersen Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:31 pm
“Should time be knocked off Blagojevich’s sentence?”

No. While Blagojevich was self-dealing, a backlog of almost 2,500 clemency requests built-up in his office. Blago’s conviction was lawful and his sentence is within the guidelines. His imprisonment merits no more reconsideration than he gave to those thousands of clemency requests, i.e. none.

– MrJM

Comment by @MisterJayEm Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:39 pm
Auther Anderson, Blogo’s real crime was pursuing his own scheme instead of pursuing Rahm’s scheme. I have a problem with this double standard, just like I have a problem with the double standard of your comments not being deleted regardless of vulgarity, when my comments are routinely deleted regardless of the truth.

Comment by William j Kelly Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:41 pm
No, and like another commenter, I was shocked at how close the vote is. Blago did nothing for the state of Illinois; he was an incompetent governor, and an incompetent crook; he apparently shows no remorse, and his wife still seems to think he did nothing wrong. She stayed out of jail, that is enough break for the family…
I think a lot of people were sentenced to too long terms for minor crimes; he wasn’t.

Comment by downstate commissioner Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:49 pm
I agree with NFOB 2:32. If Zagel has his sentencing notes with how much time he allocated to each count (which he probably didn’t do), simply reduce it by the time allocated to the 5 dropped counts. Yes, this is probably too simplistic but doing something along these lines makes sense. Not reducing it is what is what would not make sense.

Comment by Original Rambler Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:50 pm
Dear Mr. Kelly:

I regret if you were offended by my choice of words. I do hope, though, that you will consider my advice.

Very Truly Yours,

Arthur Andersen

PS: Could you possibly elaborate exactly what “Rahm’s scheme” is/was?

Comment by Arthur Andersen Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 4:54 pm
Auther Anderson I did not say I was offended by your choice of words. I said I was offended by the double standard that is routinely applied to promote the most vile, worthless and corrupt in society, while degrading, disparaging and damaging the good.

Comment by William j Kelly Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 5:02 pm
The seriousness of his crimes demands the restitution of his original sentence. Actually, I would have made it more than the original sentence of 14 years but I will defer to the judges original ruling. I believe the majority of the population wants strict but fair sentencing and his original sentence was fair in my opinion.

Comment by Ethan Hawk Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 5:09 pm
I’m somewhat amazed at all the No votes based on his poor governance. There was no criminal conviction for that. His penalty for that was impeachment.

Comment by Original Rambler Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 5:16 pm
I voted yes. Talked with him once for fifteen minutes, most egotistical person I’ve ever met. His administration was terrible to work with. I dislike the man intensely because of his total ineptitude as Governor and total lack of remorse. I always refer to Blago as the Ed Wood of politicians because he appears to be delusional. But fair is fair, his sentence was too long, felt as of the judge gave him a lengthy sentence out of frustration for not being able to punish the system which shepherded Blago into office.

Comment by illinoised Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 5:26 pm
Compare Rod’s sentence to his predecessor’s. Now that five counts have been removed, the huge disparity in sentences between the two ex-governors is even harder to justify.

Comment by nona Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 8:17 pm
No. Sentences are handed down for two reasons. To punish the defendant and to deter would be criminals with a similar intent. We argue the merits of that at length.

Blago was elected on the heels of the horrific actions and conviction of his predecessor. He was clearly cognizant of his place in history and promised to bring respectability back to the office. He did not. He was not swayed by his predecessor’s conviction, elevated corruption to unprecedented levels and thumbed his nose at the people of the State of Illinois and the judicial system. He received a just sentence.

Comment by pundent Wednesday, Jul 22, 15 @ 8:30 pm
Rod needs to be out of prison, there are people on out the streets that have done much worse and recieved less time. Put him on home confinement, for another 2 years, maybe force him to do some community service, i dont know but to be in jail this long away from his family is crazy especially when again i have seen others do much worse and get waaay less time.

Comment by austinman Thursday, Jul 23, 15 @ 9:21 am
I voted no.

I firmly believe that he thought he did nothing wrong by trying to sell the US Senate seat, nor do I feel he was repentant for his actions.

Let him rot in jail like Ryan did.

Comment by Invincible Overlord Thursday, Jul 23, 15 @ 2:26 pm