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Is EIU going down the tubes?

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Illinois

* AP…

Eastern Illinois University President David Glassman says the school is laying off 67 employees and says more people will lose jobs as the school wrestles with declining enrollment and financial uncertainties.

Glassman said in a news release Tuesday that another 51 open positions will not be filled.

Glassman said unspecified additional cuts will happen “very shortly.”

The jobs are civil service or administrative and professional positions rather than faculty.

* The lack of a state budget is playing a role in this, but EIU has also been losing a lot of students lately…

And this may not be the end to job cuts at EIU, where enrollment has dropped from 11,630 students in 2010 to 8,913 in 2014. Glassman said more employees with administrative and professional or academic support positions will be notified “very shortly” of job eliminations or reductions.

Oof.

On the bright side, since no faculty members are being laid off, the student/teacher ratio will improve.

Not much of a bright side, though.

posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 11:43 am

Comments

Somebody may want to actively recruit high school students and community college students. Just a thought.

Comment by anon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 11:50 am
The regional univs (EIU, WIU, etc.) in Illinois desperately need state budget appropriations. Without a budget they have zero state dollars coming in — and for the last few years they’ve been waiting 6+ months to receive regular funding as they’ve waited in line for the Comptroller to scrape enough together to pay their budgeted line. UofI might have millions/billions of dollars hanging around from federal research grants, etc., but the regionals don’t have that cash flow luxury. It’s becoming difficult to pay the basic bills; meaning tuition dollars are rising for students. The situation (like others) is spiralling downward… We need Higher Ed budget resolution in Springfield. Unfortunately, it seems Gov. Rauner has it in for UI, so all institutions of higher ed will take the hit. Make no mistake: The pain will not be equally shared.

Comment by Caring About Students Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 11:57 am
Lowering the tuition rate may attract more students. Most universities have way to may administrative positions and other professionals. It was inevitable this would happen. Look for this trend to happen at other universities.

Comment by Apocalypse Now Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 11:57 am
Why is EIU worse off than the other state schools? Did they have a higher percentage of students utilizing no-longer-available state and federal grants than other schools? Not sure what’s driving this.

Comment by Moby Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 11:58 am
There were no faculty layoffs because the faculty union agreed to not take their salary increase to keep the staff on. The university was going to have to cut 29 faculty. Just another example of those horrible union bosses that Rauner hates.
http://jg-tc.com/news/deal-will-extend-employment-for-at-eiu/article_51c16f60-e0ba-5252-a7a2-6e3d90a1fd2f.html#.VcOrqxH0Zi4.facebook

Comment by younyon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:01 pm
~~~Lowering the tuition rate may attract more students.~~~
Without any state dollars coming in, the only cash flow the regionals have to stay open are tuition dollars. At the very end of the FY (sometimes several months after!), the last year’s state monies are finally being distributed to the universities. Enrollment throughout the state is in decline. Talk about going from bad to worse…

Comment by Caring About Students Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:06 pm
Decreased enrollment is hitting all the State U with the exceptions of UIUC, UIC and SIUE. The directional schools grew in the 60’s to graduate all the teachers needed for the K-12 schools (Remember the Illinois State Teachers Scholarships?). Well, elementary and high schools are cutting backs, teaching is not in demand and frankly the other colleges at these universities are not all high-end. Granted NIU has a great Dept. of Accounting. But STEM majors will want to go elsewhere if they can. Supply and demand folks.

Comment by Bogey Golfer Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:09 pm
In defense of EIU, I hope that we are coming to the same judgement on SIUC. A quarter century of declining enrollments. Now that’s a long, slow roll down the tubes.

http://www.irs.siu.edu/quickfacts/students/headcount_and_fte.php

Comment by ClumsyTuna Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:13 pm
There’s an enormous amount of administrative inefficiency within the overall state University system. Been trying to create a relatively simple digital inventory of university properties (owned, leased, etc.).

This was supposed to have been done by CMS back 10 years or so. Utter complete failure - and they tossed a lot of money away on it. I mean a lot of money. So CMS dumped the project off to all the different departments and the Universities. Yep, there’s good management practices at work - make it somebody else’s problem.

So, ok, we actually decided to try to create a workable, easily functional digital solution that didn’t cost a freaking fortune to implement. We believe we got there.

So then we got to test it (A/k/a “No More ACA’s”), and that requires data. A lot of data. So let’s talk to the Universities. OK……

Dealing with University administration is like mating Giraffes. In Antarctica.

Everything seems to have to be ‘consensus administration’, which is a nice way of saying nothing actually gets done.

I’m convinced that having less university administration will be a good thing.

Comment by Judgment Day (on the road) Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:27 pm
Perhaps it is time to stop having marketing consultants run universities.

Comment by Liberty Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:30 pm
~~~Lowering the tuition rate may attract more students.~~~

I am not sure if a family is making decisions based on cost that you’ll ever compete based on price with a community college, especially for the fresh/soph kids. CC’s have become very adept at that “we are cheap / figure out where you want to go” argument. CC’s have declining enrollment as well but that make it clear that if you are a cost conscious student then CC’s are much cheaper.

Comment by Bobby Hill Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:31 pm
The Rube Goldberg structure of the public higher education system in Illinois would earn any public administration student a fail.

All of them chasing the same nickel, the same students, with layer upon layer of redundant administration and programming.

Comment by Wordslinger Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:31 pm
@Bobby Hill agreed. More students are not dropping $20+K at a state school to take gen ed classes for the first 1 to 1-1/2 years. They go to a CC and then transfer.

Comment by Bogey Golfer Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:34 pm
==the only cash flow the regionals have to stay open are tuition dollars==

But any tuition income covered by MAP grants may not be coming anytime soon. In 2014, 44,581 students at Illinois State Universities received
$157,339,686 in MAP grant money. Students at private universities in Illinois also count on MAP grants.
http://www.isac.org/dotAsset/f8c4bbcc-6aea-42b0-8dd7-97a2dc5d05b4.pdf has the number of students and amount of MAP grants per education. For example, over 2500 students at EIU received nearly $9 million in MAP grants, or about $4.5 million a semester. That is $4.5 million in Fall “tuition” money that will not be coming to EIU as the tuition dollars flow in.

Comment by Joe M Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:35 pm
The enrollment at the regional universities is suffering because they don’t attract thousands of students from Asia like the U of I does. As a Tribune story linked from CapFax last August stated: “U. of I. has more international students than any other American public university, and it trails only the University of Southern California, a private institution. “All told, including graduate students who qualify for some aid, about 9,400 international students funneled $166 million into the Urbana-Champaign campus budget last year in tuition alone, triple the amount from just five years ago.” https://capitolfax.com/2014/08/01/huge-upswing-in-chinese-students-at-uiuc/

Comment by IllinoisBoi Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:35 pm
With the increasing acceptance of online programs, wasn’t this decline somewhat predictable?

The growth of online vendors such as Amazon has had an impact on retail vendors.

The growth of online publishing such as Capitolfax has had an impact on print newspapers.

The online option is often less expensive, more convenient and more current. The campus, retail and print options do have something to offer; but they’ll really need to emphasize those things to compete long term. For a university, that might be the campus life, the socialization, the direct exchange with professors, and just the overall experience that the online option can’t really match.

Comment by Logic not emotion Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:39 pm
Judgement Day- It sounds like your project was an utter waste of time. What would be gained by such a database?

Comment by Ret Prof Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:40 pm
Eastern needs to close–there is excess capacity within the regionals and EIU is hard to get to and in an area of the state that has declining population both numerically and demographically–it would be traumatic initially to the area but it would help right size public higher ed and point out that if you keep sending legislators to Springfield who want less government, eventually that ’s what you will get.

Comment by anon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:42 pm
We are producing more college grads then we have jobs for them. That is the first problem. I suspect the other problem for EIU is you have two state universities in U of I and IL State within 2 hrs drive. Just not that many people going there geographically.

SIU has lost enrollment mostly due to the massive expansion in John A. Logan. Perhaps the business governor could look into the wisdom of two taxpayer funded entities 6 miles apart competing with one another.

Comment by the Patriot Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 12:47 pm
anon sez: “Eastern needs to close…” And what do we do with that lovely campus? Make it a deluxe prison for wealthy criminals? And if you really want to make the Charleston area decline drastically both numerically and demographically, closing that university will really do the trick.

Comment by IllinoisBoi Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:07 pm
“It sounds like your project was an utter waste of time. What would be gained by such a database?”
——–

First off, it’s been legally required for like the last 10+ years or so. There’s even a State Auditor General report on this whole ongoing fiasco. Apart from that, there’s other reasons….

Secondly, there’s no overall central repository of information on structures at most of our state universities. Different entities within universities use different codes to identify structures/buildings - it’s very common to find 3-4 (if not more) different identifiers for the same building, depending upon what entity within the university you are talking to.

It’s not that there is a lack of data - the problem is that the data is scattered literally everywhere. And if you don’t have exact knowledge who has control over that specific piece of data, it’s like playing “Game of Thrones” in a building full of mirrors.

That’s part of the reason why there’s so many freaking meetings - trying to assemble needed information.

A practical example: Take any one of the 4 year state universities - ask different departments (say, financial, IT, facilities, legal, law enforcement, planning, safety, etc.) and ask how many facilities make up the university. You need a list.

See how many of those lists/reports match. Bet half to three quarters are in Excel (which means, single user).

You’ll be surprised.

How can you make intelligent decisions if you can’t even get agreement on what you are supposed to be dealing with?

Comment by Judgment Day (on the road) Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:08 pm
==What would be gained by such a database?

It would be great to know what kind of infrastructure you have to make decisions and perhaps reduce duplication of efforts. Frankly, even intra-college having that information easily available would break down the kind of information problems that occur in such decentralized institutions which colleges are by their very nature.

Comment by ArchPundit Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:10 pm
same thing we do with closed developmental centers, closed prisons and closed factories–move on–

Comment by anon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:13 pm
Why has enrollment declined?
If the answer is that students are choosing Community College to meet their needs, then this is on swing on the way to balance.

If the answer is that parents and their college ready students have left the state and are receiving a better in-state tuition rate for a comparable education elsewhere, significant changes are required at the state level.

Comment by Pete Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:19 pm
I think location as a lot to do with EIU’s problems. Contrast it with what I see with having a daughter at SIUE; Full classes, new buildings, waiting lists for many classes and huge influx of kids from eastern Iowa and Missr.

SEIU is easy access and with STL 20 mins. away, kids have a lot of entertainment choices on weekends.

Comment by Give Me A Break Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:24 pm
Anon… Hard to get to? Right off of Interstate 57 just South of Champaign? Maybe we should close WIU based on your criteria. I could argue we should close SIU as well.

Comment by mapp Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:25 pm
Judgement Day - still sounds like an utter waste of time. What would you do with a list of every building. Seems like CMS is trying to micromanage the university with unfunded mandates.

Comment by Ret Prof Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:34 pm
It’s required by the gurus who design, adopt, and mandate financial reporting requirements and standards. Useful has nothing to do with it.

Comment by Ret Prof Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:38 pm
Wasn’t Ret Prof 1:38 - sorry - posting from phone … grr

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:40 pm
If I was a kid, I would go to EIU before SIUE. Greek system, established campus, good business program

Comment by anon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:52 pm
“What would you do with a list of every building. Seems like CMS is trying to micromanage the university with unfunded mandates.”
————

Actually, it’s extremely useful. Some of the folks wanting this the most are the trades and the “outside’ folks at different universities.

For example, lots of our facilities have asbestos. If you renovate a facility and there’s more than 3 sq. ft. of asbestos, it’s contract work or EPA certified asbestos certified employees. For pre-school-12 grade schools, it’s even tougher.

If anybody from the trades is out in the field taking care of a problem (plumbers, carpenters, electricians, pipefitters) and they run into suspected asbestos, it’s time to stop & talk to the Industrial Hygienist for the University. The records for that structure need to be checked.

If the records are only available on a spreadsheet, you better hope that person is in the office. More often then not, the person’s out working (they’re busy too) so everything stops.

This happens over and over and over again. If the data (even just providing access to scanned images of the paper) is available over an internal internet, the Industrial Hygienist could look at the data over their smartphone and make a smart decision without having to go back to the office. That’s just one little bitty ultra tiny example.

Everybody wins. But you have got to have a web database portal built to make it happen.

Reality is, Universities are drowning in paper.

Truth is, universities are not going to have the money to keep operating like they are.

Time for these universities to get out of the 1980’s and 1990’s mindset.

Comment by Judgment Day (on the road) Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:57 pm
-the kids are voting with their feet–you can get a civil engineering degree from SIUE for $75,000 cheaper than u of i and its the same professional license. SIUE is nimble and eating everyone else’s lunch because they KEPT TUITION LOW! on purpose.

Comment by anon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:59 pm
What about targeting Chicago State for closing? That place is known as a failure factory (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/feature/college_dropout_factories.php?page=all). Students at Eastern at least have a reasonable shot of earning a degree.

Comment by wayward Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 1:59 pm
Bad thing is, these cuts at EIU are predicated upon a 6.5 percent reduction in state appropriations. If the reduction in appropriations is greater (31.5 percent floated by the governor) the layoffs will be much worse.

Comment by up2now Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:03 pm
Uh anon 1:59, you do know UIUC has one of the best engineering programs in the nation, right? That would be similar to saying a business degree from UIUC is $75K cheaper than a business degree from Harvard.

Comment by anon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:04 pm
closing a campus from a obscure part of rural Illinois where the residents really don’t like alot of government spending any way would send an incredible message to everyone else–get your costs under control or else!

Comment by anon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:06 pm
anon — are you a Rauner plant? You have been asked this before but have never really answered….

Comment by Ash Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:08 pm
@IllinoisBoi: ==And if you really want to make the Charleston area decline drastically both numerically and demographically, closing that university will really do the trick.==
This is the same kind of argument for making another expensive warplane—jobs in some Congresscritter’s district depend on it—or for lengthening prison sentences to keep prisons open to employ the prison guards. As far as I’m concerned, if you need to make that kind of argument you lose. (Though of course political muscle determines what actually happens.)

Comment by UIC Guy Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:10 pm
Judgement day-Like I said CMS is trying to micromanage secondary and tertiary functions of the university.

Comment by Ret Prof Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:13 pm
Here is an auditing question. How many EIU students would judgement day retain?

Comment by Ret Prof Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:15 pm
Governor Edgar went there. I wonder if he’ll say more about the budget now.

Comment by Calhoun Native Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:18 pm
Local colleges and CC around me are all dreading the demographics of fewer 18 year olds as the Boomers age out. They are all showing census drops or just maintaining.

Eastern hard to get to? Nice distance from family in Chicago and right off 57. What map are you using?

EIU lowered some entance criteria several years ago and have paid a price since then with serious local crime problems that are resolving. U of I wants to hit 100,000 students? Incorporate EIU much like what happened with Sangamon and they are there. The big issue roles back to The Budget, but the Tops are more concerned about jockeying for their power base than what happens to the little people they need to do the work

Comment by zatoichi Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:25 pm
==Like I said CMS is trying to micromanage ==

Wrong target. The GA I believe mandated these lists. The universities would know best what property they have.

Comment by Demoralized Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:29 pm
Demoralized- The GA is doing whatever CMS and the auditor general wants. Ask you local legislator and he or she will not have a clue what they vote for.

Comment by Ret Prof Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:34 pm
EIU hung their hats on producing teachers. The market for education degrees fell off recently. EIU has had their head in the sand when it comes to shifting degree programs to suit the demands of students only recently adding nursing and criminal justice offerings.

That also coupled with a poor strategy of not recruiting local schools to keep more of their local kids at home and continued focus on the Chicago suburbs where that had been so successful over the years greatly hurt enrollment.

The University has a history of not running like a business and making feel good decisions. Locally they been having their lunch handed to them by the local community college that continues to see growth and success by being adaptive and focusing on their region.

Comment by BW Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:39 pm
Now that I learned how to spell………..it looks like a perfect storm for the whole group. Decline of Middle Class -demographics- on line to extent and less state funding. Did anyone else notice how many of our small private colleges depend on the state? Most don’t release total budget info but from their MAP grants it looks like we might be seeing some of them go under before EIU.
Does any other state provide this much support to private schools?

Comment by End of the Middle Class Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:40 pm
UIC guy said: “As far as I’m concerned, if you need to make that kind of argument you lose. (Though of course political muscle determines what actually happens.)”
Your final sentence makes the rest of what you wrote moot. And the argument that taxpayer-subsidized institutions bring economic benefits to their neighborhoods is made constantly and often successfully for all sorts of projects of far less social and economic value than universities (prisons, race tracks, riverboat casinos, sports stadiums, etc.)

Comment by IllinoisBoi Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:41 pm
” How many EIU students would judgement day retain?”
———–

Don’t know. Not my call. But I’d do something else, that you obviously haven’t thought about.

The biggest selling point for kids going to universities is the ability to get good jobs upon graduating. You don’t have to be a genius to see that selling point is in real danger.

If universities are operating in a 1980’s and 1990’s mindset, why should potential employers assume that your newest graduates are good to go for the 2015 economy (as mediocre as it is), when there’s a substantial pool of potential employees to choose from?

Where’s the ‘value added’ component that potential employers look for? You may say it shouldn’t be that way, but that’s not reality.

If it was up to me, I’d drastically change EIU’s focus - I’d move more into three areas: Digital, Agricultural, and Mechanical. Move away from the liberal arts competition, and into more specialized Colleges within the University. I’m talking like 80-20 ratio of monies.

Realize, you are placing a big time bet doing this with EIU. But, it could pay off big time for Illinois.

I can hear all the crying and wailing now. But we aren’t going to be able to stay doing business like we are today. We’re going to have to make some really hard calls.

Btw…

“CMS is trying to micromanage secondary and tertiary functions of the university.”
————–

CMS would be the LAST agency that I would ever want to oversee/manage ANYTHING - particularly a university. That would be like having the completely, totally incompetent oversee/manage the only relatively incompetent.

Comment by Judgment Day (on the road) Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:42 pm
==The University has a history of not running like a business and making feel good decisions. ==

Apparently long ago a Vice President of Business at SSU exclaimed at a meeting they could run the place for 11 million if it wasn’t for the students.

Comment by Ret Prof Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:45 pm
Between WWII and the Great Recession, our massive university systems could be propped up somehow.

No longer.

I would like to see all the state universities centralize their administrative and service work. Then we need to begin slowly euthanizing many of them. There is no need for the massive bricks and mortar campuses in a world of online learning.

If you were to begin a university today, you would not choose any of the current universities as models.

Private educational institutions aren’t spending millions building multiple ivy league covered campuses, and we need to see these developments as we fairly and carefully evolve away from the traditional university model.

I wouldn’t kill off any of the current universities, but I would definitely free them of the massive overhead of administrative and service costs and turn a lot of the campus buildings and halls into small business development centers.

Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:50 pm
Judgement day- Even if your ideas were spot on, EIU has to get permission from the bureaucrats at BHE to add and drop majors.

Comment by Ret Prof Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:51 pm
Judgment Day - The auditor general audits all state universities annually. They are provided with listings of all buildings, equipment, land, improvements and construction in progess. The listings are maintained each year for all additions, deletions and transfers.

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 2:51 pm
“…. EIU has to get permission from the bureaucrats at BHE to add and drop majors.”
————-

That may be, but the marketplace will (and is currently) making it’s own judgements.

Obviously the BHE needs to spend some time driving through Effingham, Charleston-Matoon, Tuscola, Arcola, etc. - take a look at the business communities in those areas.

See what your marketplace is.

Comment by Judgment Day (on the road) Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:05 pm
==The University has a history of not running like a business and making feel good decisions. ==

American businesses are about the worst role models for effectiveness and efficiency imaginable. Universities suffer increasingly from aping the worst behavior of businesses (for example obscene CEO/top-level administrator compensation).

Comment by IllinoisBoi Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:07 pm
@IB, 2:41: your first post was clearly a statement about what should be done, not an estimate of what would happen, given political realities. To that argument my comment was pertinent. When you have to change arguments mid-stream, and pretend you didn’t, then…?

Comment by UIC Guy Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:18 pm
Judgement Day- “By statute, the Illinois Board of Higher Education is responsible for approving new on- campus and off-campus units of instruction, organized research, and public service, and units of administration proposed by public university governing boards. The Board’s approval criteria, defined in rules adopted for administering the statute, address university mission, academic control, faculty and staff, support services, financial resources, student demand, curriculum, statewide need, and congruence with Board policies and priorities. In addition to the approval criteria in rules, each new program was reviewed for its contributions to the goals of the Illinois Public Agenda for College and Career Success, which sets forth new priorities to guide Illinois higher education. Staff recommendations are based on analyses of application materials and responses to staff questions, and, for advanced degree programs, recommendations of external consultants.”

Comment by Ret Prof Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:20 pm
EIU is down 23 pct in undergrad enrollment in the last 5 years. Chicago State is down 31 pct and NIU is down 14 pct in that time. SIU is down 11 pct. Only U of I Champaign is up 5 pct.

State universities are down 6 pct overall. Choose your reason but the drop in state funding is not helping the situation.

Comment by Joe Biden Was Here Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:22 pm
One reason college costs so much:
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-84197452/

Comment by Jay R Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:22 pm
@ VanillaMan (2:59pm)

>> There is no need for the massive bricks and mortar campuses in a world of online learning.

The explosion of online shopping did not kill off storefront retails. I shop both online, and in person, depending on the items I need, the measure of convenience, and the amount of customer support I need. Online delivery is a better mode of education for some students, but it is not, by any means, the panacea.

Take, for instance, the rise and fall of MOOCs.

Learning is not a service to be packaged and delivered like it is a pair of shoes or a waffle iron. Some students will do better with online courses, but most will not. Some disciplines can be effectively taught either in person or online, but not all. For instance, do you really want an engineer student to get to her first job after only having done virtual modeling and looking at computer images, without real hands-on experience? Do you want a nursing student to arrive at his station never having any lab experience?

The future landscape of higher education does include online education. There can be no doubt about that. But it cannot be, and it is not, the answer to the existential crisis precipitated by habitual neglect to invest in public education.

Comment by Baihua Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:24 pm
IllinoisBoi, congratulations on having the most ridiculous post I’ve seen here in a LONG time.

Comment by anon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:31 pm
J-Day pretty much sums up my recollection of dealing with university administrators. College bureaucracy is like regular government bureaucracy in that decisions are frowned upon. But, there is one difference. In a college bureaucracy everyone is “empowered”, as if in a pure democracy, but no one is accountable. It was hardly a surprise that when Chancellor Wise stepped in it the Big U offered her a $400,000 bonus

Comment by Keyser Soze Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:32 pm
Hit successful EIU alums like Tony Romo for a donation.

Or, turn the campus into an exclusive charter school for the likes of the Rauner children.

Comment by Enemy of the State Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:36 pm
@Judgment Day (2:42 pm)

>> The biggest selling point for kids going to universities is the ability to get good jobs upon graduating. You don’t have to be a genius to see that selling point is in real danger.

This is not true. Surveys after surveys have shown that for incoming students, the dollar return value in terms of jobs is only one consideration amongst many, and it’s not even the most important one for many of them. Did you make this claim based on some other data? Or did you just manufacture it out of thin air because that’s how you think the world *should* work?

>> If it was up to me, I’d drastically change EIU’s focus - I’d move more into three areas: Digital, Agricultural, and Mechanical. Move away from the liberal arts competition, and into more specialized Colleges within the University. I’m talking like 80-20 ratio of monies.

I think you’re over-estimating the effectiveness of focusing on technology as a way to rescue a comprehensive university. The value of liberal arts model for higher education has been proven. The recent decline in college enrollment is not an indictment of liberal arts, but a reflection of the deterioration of the middle class and the shrinking public monies to support the mission of higher education.

Higher education has always had a dual purpose of preparing graduates for a better career as well as developing the potential for each individual. And that’s a good thing, in my view. We already do a lot of job training for companies, and we don’t need to do more. It’s a balance to strike between offering courses and degrees that can lead to higher paying jobs versus becoming a publically-funded job training center. There is more to higher education than that which can be measured in terms of number of jobs or the salary of these jobs.

Comment by Baihua Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:40 pm
Universities were once seen as a public good worthy of public support, from the postwar GI Bill era to the 80’s. And then came the sainted Ronald Reagan who argued that a university education was a private good and not worthy of such state largesse. We reap what we sow as we continue the race to the bottom. Social good, community good be damned. It’s every man, woman and child for themselves. Bon chance, America. It’s an Ayn Rand world after all.

Comment by Scholar athlete Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 3:53 pm
Last year, it cost $24,000 to attend EIU if you lived in-state. If you lived out-of-state, it cost $41,000) to attend for one year. Seems like this could be the crux of the problem.

Comment by Debron Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 4:18 pm
Baihua:

You may be looking at ‘incoming students’, but we’re talking to outgoing/soon-to-be graduating students, and with student load debits and job prospects, it’s all about finding jobs - and good jobs at that. And you better bring some skills to the table.

And we get to talk to universities and community colleges all the time about trying to get job placements. And you don’t have to like it, but there’s not a huge demand in the marketplace for liberal arts majors.

Personally, when we’re looking at employing anyone, we spend a whole lot of time looking at the intangibles of the individual.

If I got some of the language in your post (03:40 PM) this from a prospective employee, they’d be off the short list. We wouldn’t be convinced they could get the work done. Seriously doubt we’d be unique in that outlook.

We’re not going to agree on much of anything.

Reality is that the marketplace is going to decide who is right.

Comment by Judgment Day (on the road) Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 4:19 pm
I live within an hour of EIU. My children’s high school used to send 40% of their graduates to EIU. Today it’s closer to 2%.

The students are going to SIUE and Mizzou - who have done a much better job of marketing to and attracting these students.

An insider to EIU told me that their were no consequences to the enrollment office for not meeting targets.

Even public education requires some business ideals to survive.

Comment by Downstate Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 4:29 pm
State universities are incredibly slow to pick up on industry trends, especially in Illinois.

If you build a university worthy of attracting students for a competitive price, they will come.

The most cost and operationally effective model right now is to have as many students as possible attend JCs and transfer. JCs need to be FAR more responsive to professional needs. For example, many JCs are rejecting incredibly high numbers of pre-nursing students and other medical programs. They need to shift resources to meet these needs.

The “directional” schools need to find ways to improve their product, brand, and cost effectiveness as has been done with the University of Iowa and Indiana University. There just aren’t enough students in Indiana and Iowa to keep the schools viable, so they recruit Illinois BIG TIME. That’s where a lot of highly qualified students in business (and engineering at Iowa, Iowa State, and Purdue) wind up. If they can get in there, why on earth would they go to EIU, WIU, NIU or SIU? At Western Michigan U in Kalamazoo out of state students only have to pay out of state tuition for one year. After that they become “residents” and pay in-state tuition.

At Arizona State and AU we accept a high percentage of qualified students who apply (about 80%), and we’re growing like crazy. We also give merit scholarships regardless of financial need. Because my kids got over a 30 on some ACT areas, they get $6,000 of their $9750 annual tuition paid for by the U. If they had remained out of state students, they would have gotten $11,000 of the $22,000 OOS tuition picked up, making the net cost about the same as an in-state student at UIUC (who doesn’t have as good a program in logistics/supply chain management as ASU). We’re one of the highest rated schools for employers based on results for graduates in the workplace, ranking up there with UIUC, Penn State, and Ohio State.

About 300 freshman from Illinois were in my kids class, and we get a LOT of students from Washington and California.

The point here is that universities like those in Indiana, Iowa and Arizona are smart and competitive enough to figure out how to deal with maintaining quality while expanding enrollment. Those in Illinois seem more corruptly bureaucratic and have more of an entitlement mentality than one of innovation to solve problems.

That shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone familiar with the Illinois government-education cabal….

Comment by Arizona Bob Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 4:34 pm
====ital, Agricultural, and Mechanical. Move away from the liberal arts competition, and into more specialized Colleges within the University. I’m talking like 80-20 ratio of monies.

And even crossing those lines–the need for ag technology is huge right now. Running a first rate precision ag program at Eastern would likely be a good fit.

Comment by ArchPundit Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 4:42 pm
=== There is no need for the massive bricks and mortar campuses in a world of online learning.

I think you are overselling online a bit here. I am working to expand online in my current program and I think it has an important place, but there’s also something to say for students learning in a community of learners. Much of what they learn is from interacting from each other.

Others need to be in a structured classroom setting. There are also programs that need a bigger foot print–precision ag isn’t going to work without the buildings and tractors.

I’m not disagreeing that we need to rethink that footprint and reduce some of it, but there is still a place for a comprehensive university that may need to be a bit less comprehensive.

Comment by ArchPundit Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 4:46 pm
===Judgement day- Even if your ideas were spot on, EIU has to get permission from the bureaucrats at BHE to add and drop majors.

In another state not that all that far away, there was a central office person who was baffled that the ag programs could educate people who didn’t live on a family farm.

She’s holding up a program of mine up on almost as dumb of reasons.

Comment by ArchPundit Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 4:48 pm
===Higher education has always had a dual purpose of preparing graduates for a better career as well as developing the potential for each individual. And that’s a good thing, in my view. We already do a lot of job training for companies, and we don’t need to do more. It’s a balance to strike between offering courses and degrees that can lead to higher paying jobs versus becoming a publically-funded job training center. There is more to higher education than that which can be measured in terms of number of jobs or the salary of these jobs.

I think this also is a view that ignores contextualized learning. Take a kid from a rural area who just wants to do ag and he goes into a precision ag program. Is he going to appreciate Beowolf off the bat? Probably not, but maybe a contextualized class with Of Mice and Men or perhaps focusing on different forms of literature.

Or perhaps math is a better example as I think everyone should read classics and do calculus, but I also understand that’s not where all kids start.

Comment by ArchPundit Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 4:51 pm
===Judgment Day - The auditor general audits all state universities annually. They are provided with listings of all buildings, equipment, land, improvements and construction in progess. The listings are maintained each year for all additions, deletions and transfers.

Which is very generic and gives you no information about how it’s constructed, what it means when you need to make a repair, or understand what the classrooms may be like.

Comment by ArchPundit Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 4:55 pm
Thanks vor making my point so specifically, Debron @4:18pm. And let’s not go down the student debt wormhole. theregionals depend on tuition dollars in lieu of state dollars that areeither lateor not forthcoming.

Comment by Scholar athlete Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 5:02 pm
@ Judgment Day (4:19 pm)

>> You may be looking at ‘incoming students’, but we’re talking to outgoing/soon-to-be graduating students, and with student load debits and job prospects, it’s all about finding jobs - and good jobs at that.

You’re seizing on to a phrase that differs but offers no real distinction to your argument. I am telling you that students do not pick schools or majors based only on the calculus on what kind of job and what kind of income they can get after graduation. That’s just not what students do. Your premis is flawed. You can indeed argue that that’s how they should consider the issue, but it is not the reality. When you ask them, students rank social aspects of the college experience as equally important, on average, as the academic and career experience.

>> And you better bring some skills to the table.

Effective communication and critical thinking skills are routinely ranked as the most desired traits for prospective employees, and humanities majors are equally well trained in those as any other majors.

>> If I got some of the language in your post (03:40 PM) this from a prospective employee, they’d be off the short list. We wouldn’t be convinced they could get the work done. Seriously doubt we’d be unique in that outlook.

What language? That public higher education institutions’ raison d’etre ought not be free training programs for businesses? That there needs to be a balance between catering our curriculum to produce “employable” humans and promulgating a liberal arts, broadly educated person?

I doubt not one bit that you and your company would take that outlook. But I don’t think public higher education should service only you and your company, either.

>> Reality is that the marketplace is going to decide who is right.

The markeplace is an amoral conglomeration of entities vying to maximize profit and to fulfill narrowly-defined self interests. It is tremendously useful in figuring out which company makes the best widget that can perform task X at the cheapest price, but it will also forever be at odds with some of the goals of public higher education, or anything that falls under “public good.” The marketplace is not infallible, nor even appropriate, in all cases. I, for one, am not willing to relinquish my moral judgment to defer to whatever the marketplace chooses to annoint as the “winner.”

Comment by Baihua Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 5:07 pm
Debron, I call BS on your post. According to the EIU website, for everything it cost $20,488. And schools always estimate high. Expensive, but not your figure.

Comment by anon Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 5:07 pm
“Which is very generic and gives you no information about how it’s constructed, what it means when you need to make a repair, or understand what the classrooms may be like.”

Here you go: http://www.fs.illinois.edu/services/capital-programs/deferred-maintenance/facility-condition-reports

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 5:11 pm
===Here you go:

This is a great state level response that is completely nonresponsive to actual needs.

So let’s take one example
http://www.fs.illinois.edu/docs/default-source/capital-programs/facility-condition-reports/advanced-computation-bldg-0017-2011.pdf?sfvrsn=2

It is very important to know that ADA is not met by physical structures in the building. How about the IT infrastructure as it relates to learning disabilities? Nothing. How about the network capacity in The Advanced Computational Building? Nothing. I can go over to the Space Inventory and they have some information about square footage and usage, but that doesn’t tell me much of what I want to know if I want to actually use space more efficiently.

How do I find out on almost any campus–call so and so, who then tells me to call so and so and eventually I can piece together something. However, the project JD has could actually help me schedule rooms more efficiently just as one example.

The information you just pointed me to let’s me know information about basic financial information for reporting and maintaining the balance sheet, but nothing that helps run the campus day to day.

Comment by ArchPundit Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 5:23 pm
It’s been touched on, kind of, earlier, but EIU doesn’t have the advantage of being located in a region whose economy is versatile. The medical communities in Champbana and Bloomington-Normal, for instance, or Country Financial and State Farm again in B-N. When the college town takes in students but then sends them right back out again instead of retaining them, there’s trouble. It isn’t Charleston’s fault. Location Location Location.

Comment by Duke Silver's Saxophone Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 5:45 pm
“It is very important to know that ADA is not met by physical structures in the building.”

Here you go: http://ada.fs.illinois.edu/index.html

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 5:53 pm
“How about the network capacity in The Advanced Computational Building? Nothing.”

Here is a synopsis on how network capacity was increased in the specific building: http://access.ncsa.illinois.edu/Releases/02Releases/07.16.02_I-WIRE_Act.html

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 6:14 pm
“How about the IT infrastructure as it relates to learning disabilities? Nothing”

Everything you wanted to know: http://disability.illinois.edu/academic-support/aitg

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 6:17 pm
Maybe MR> Glassman Needs to cut his pay in half and join the real world

Comment by quincy Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 6:20 pm
“How do I find out on almost any campus–call so and so, who then tells me to call so and so and eventually I can piece together something.”
————

Oh, wow. Do I know that feeling!

Also, I know that UI-U/C has pretty good records. But most of the other state universities - not so much. In fact the Auditor General’s report specifically mentioned UI-U/C reporting as being the only state 4 year university as meeting the required property inventory standards.

Comment by Judgment Day (on the road) Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 6:22 pm
“How do I find out on almost any campus–call so and so, who then tells me to call so and so and eventually I can piece together something.”

Amazing that they weren’t able to answer all your questions on the first call. Absurd.

Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 6:26 pm
@ Retired Prof:

The need to have all building plans, blueprints, maintenance records, etc. in one place, in a form easily accessible to staff and contractors is very important. As a prior commenter alluded to, when a tradesman runs into an issue while they are working on a job, the university is often paying $50-75/hour (or more) while the tradesman stands around and the site supervisor calls multiple offices seeking the information needed to make the decision regarding how the problem will be fixed.

That’s more money in the building project, less money in the education budget. But hey, it’s just tax dollars, so it doesn’t matter, right? /s

So it’s a darned shame the Legislature had to mandate that the information be gathered and transferred to a form that could be accessed by multiple people in multiple locations.

It’s probably closer to a crime that multiple parties have not cooperated to make this happen.

It’s definitely not micromanagement.

It’s also not micromanagement to want to know what properties are owned by state-financed institutions. It’s about keeping track of where public dollars are going, and what condition those facilities are in (or what kind of liabilities are being created by mismanagement and neglect).

But I’m just a school board member, in a district with multiple (20+) buildings, fighting a similar fight in the district I’m in. What do I know? (shrugs shoulders, walks away.)

Comment by Lynn S, Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 6:53 pm
ego plorans

Comment by steve schnorf Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 8:01 pm
Ego sum plurex, Steve.

Comment by Wordslinger Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 8:11 pm
Ego semper vici, Word.

Comment by Arthur Andersen Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 8:29 pm
@Quincy — Glassman did cut his own pay and put administrators on furlough days. His predecessor (the one that put EIU in this mess) would never have considered it.

Comment by ash Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 8:34 pm
S—–Also, I know that UI-U/C has pretty good records. But most of the other state universities - not so much. In fact the Auditor General’s report specifically mentioned UI-U/C reporting as being the only state 4 year university as meeting the required property inventory standards.

And that points to exactly the problem you point out. Someone knows, but it is held with multiple offices, in different formats, and the decision process is insane even if one place gets it right.

It’s not unique to Illinois if it makes you feel better…and it probably doesn’t.

Comment by Archpundit Wednesday, Aug 19, 15 @ 10:59 pm
Not surpsrising at all. With the state of Illinois primary economic development tool being more and more taxes to pay for bloated pensions, schools suffer. This will become the norm in IL if Madigan has his way.

Comment by Tone Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 7:51 am
Wow Tone. Didn’t quite read the post did you. Go back and read it again. I mean, I know it’s fun and all to post talking points but it would be nice if people could maybe think for themselves once in a while.

Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 8:02 am
This should impress all of you who seem to think that property inventories have anything to do with the state universities’ financial problems. WIU even has all of their trees and bushes identified and mapped out. Enlarge the image and you can get easily get down to individual trees and bushes and what kind they are.
http://gis.wiu.edu/flexviewers/wiu_tree/

By the way, it is my understanding that the tree and bush database was mainly done by volunteers.

Comment by Joe M Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 8:39 am
What a focus on the negative; at the end of the day this is a business and some right-sizing needed to occur. As an alum, I commend President Glassman for making the tough calls (including a cut in pay himself). EIU will continue to be a shining beacon in central Illinois for years to come, adapting as we all must to the ever-changing landscape of higher education.

Comment by LiveFromColorado Thursday, Aug 20, 15 @ 9:59 am