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Rauner: Right to work off the table “for now”

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* One reason why the Democrats are so loathe to cut a deal with Gov. Rauner on his non-budgetary demands is that they figure he’ll just come back at them next year with another set of major demands. From the Tribune…

Gov. Rauner has long said he is not pushing a “right-to-work” agenda for Illinois, but when speaking to a friendly crowd Friday at the Illinois Manufacturers Association’s annual luncheon, Rauner said the idea was only off the table “for now.”

“Our labor regulations, while all the states around us have gone right-to-work, that’s killing a lot of employers,” Rauner said. “I’ve taken that off the table, for now anyway, in the spirit of trying to get a deal.”

Rauner is currently pushing a less aggressive version of right-to-work, which allows local governments and school districts to decide what gets collectively bargained and whether or not to pay prevailing union wage rates on public projects.

That effort, along with a number of other items on Rauner’s legislative wish list, has held up action on a budget for state government since the new financial year began July 1. Rauner told the manufacturer’s group that he had always expected the budget fight to drag into the new year, and said it could be months still before a deal is made.

“When I started this process, I thought we’d probably have a compromise in the fall,” Rauner said. “That was my original, when I started last January, I thought we’d have a compromise in the fall. It looks now most likely January to April.”

* Meanwhile…

The Sunday Spin podcasts: State Rep. Ron Sandack of Downers Grove, the House GOP floor leader, said an agreement to end the Springfield stalemate may not come until April, after the March 15 primary elections.

The show can be heard by clicking here.

posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 8:48 am

Comments

Instead of cutting off both legs, I’ll compromise and just take one. Still not enough? Okay fine, below the knee. Jeez, what else are you going to ask for, a pony?

Comment by Me too Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 8:53 am
FYI - Missouri is not right to work

Comment by Anon Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 8:55 am
For me, I also look at this “backing off” RTW as a red herring, as Property Tax Relief must include prevailing wage and collective bargaining demands.

A “look… a kitty” type of maneuver, while also not acknowledging he, Rauner, can’t get 60 and 30 to pass that type of dismantling, sorry, “reform”.

As an aside, the Labor movement this weekend making their displeasure quite clear with rallies… and that’s great for Labor… but when it matters, will Labor let the GOP cowards that voted “Yellow” or didn’t vote, they’re unhappy, or will Labor target their former “friends” who forgot about Labor when it mattered most?

This RTW walk-back is a red herring. Nothing is being abandoned, and by “abandoning” a losing position in thd GA isn’t compromising.

The 2016 GA races, for Labor and Social Services should be approached as their attempt, a clear message to Rauner, “We don’t approve”

March is just around the corner…

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 8:59 am
===that’s killing a lot of employers===

Which employers are specifically being killed by the state not changing to right to work? I think these anonymous companies should be required to be identified.

Comparing us to our neighbors is great, but without comparative statistics like average wages paid, percentage of economy that’s manufacturing, and so forth, it’s really an apples to oranges comparison.

Comment by Anon Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:04 am
===an agreement to end the Springfield stalemate may not come until April, after the March 15 primary elections.===

Someone must have figured out that they can run candidates against incumbents in a primary and make 80% of the campaign about the fact that the state doesn’t have a budget and stand a much better chance of winning than by telling voters that the key to growth and prosperity is to destroy unions and pay the middle class less.

Comment by Anon Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:07 am
That’s quite the sacrifice seeing as Right to Work had a serious chance in Illinois. /s

Comment by AC Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:26 am
–”When I started this process, I thought we’d probably have a compromise in the fall,” Rauner said. “That was my original, when I started in January….”–

Last January? That can’t be true.

The Tribbie edit board told us this mess started in May when the GA passed a “wildly unbalanced budget.”

Of course that ignored the “wildly unbalanced budget” the governor proposed in February.

They both look pretty good now considering the ongoing fiscal train wreck.

But now Rauner says he’d decided way back in Januay he had no intention of signing off on any budget unless he got his union-busting stuff.

How can that be? He said month after month he was negotiating on a budget in good faith.

All this destruction — people losing jobs, businesses not getting paid, social service providers being squeezed, universities being bled, etc. — are all part of a plan.

And, just for laughs, I’ll ask again: What is the tangible ROI on that plan? Fiscal return? Economic return?

The damage is easily measurable and quantifiable. If you can’t do the same for the benefits of the “Turnaround Agenda,” it’s obviously nothing more than ideological zealotry.

Comment by wordslinger Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:30 am
“When I started this process, I thought we’d probably have a compromise in the fall,” Rauner said…..”

In a panel discussion last month, Tom Cross suggested maybe no budget until after the 2016 November election. I guess that’s still the fall.

Comment by veritas Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:34 am
Nobody trusts Rauner to stay away from RTW. Why Raunerites want Illinois to doom it’s citizens to powerless low paid jobs is beyond me. This article perfectly illustrates what will happen to us if we go down this path.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/2015/12/01/a-grim-bargain/

Comment by Honeybear Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:34 am
OW- Our rally in the Metro East is Thurs. I’m looking forward to meeting the political candidates, pledging support and getting hooked up with their volunteer coordinators. Our Local folks are itching for payback. The more Rauner hits us the more it motivates our membership. Go ahead Rauner, keep it up.

Comment by Honeybear Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:41 am
Well said Word.

Comment by Norseman Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:42 am
Bruce N Ron,

Why are you too chicken to support Amending the Constitution of the State of Illinois to INCLUDE a Right to Work.

Just like other Rights enumerated in the Constitution:

Free Speech, Right to trial by my peers, Right to Vote, etc, why not finally giving me the Right to Work. I hear Right to Work and get excited because I think it will finally make it legal to work.

You said you wanted to “Shake Up Springfield” and you beat that Governor Quinn who wasn’t going to give me this right.

Thank you,
Jack

Comment by Jack Stephens Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:47 am
==“I’ve taken that off the table, for now anyway, in the spirit of trying to get a deal.”==

Even though Rauner has not practically changed anything on this issue for the past six months, and even though he is giving up demanding something he never had a chance of getting anyway —

Let’s take this as a positive sign in the spirit of the holidays. If he completely takes RTW and union negotiating rights off the table, and doesn’t keep trying to slip them in other bills, then it can mean he has started negotiating a serious budget.

“For now” is important. Take it for now.

So what if he tries the same obstructionism next year? There’s no way to keep him from doing that, and causing all kinds of real problems in the state, anyway. RTW et al would lose then as well.

Comment by walker Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 9:55 am
Rauner has not been pushin’ a RTW agenda because union members and Democrats crushed it. He is still trying to inflict damage on unions by severely restricting their collective bargaining rights at the local level, which would render public unions useless and would be big state government intrusion into local governments.

Speaking of RTW states, UAW won a small but historic victory at VW in Chattanooga:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/uaw-wins-historic-victory-u-south-vote-vw-024734442–finance.html

Comment by Grandson of Man Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:14 am
I fear that the governor has focused his anti-labor wrath on SEIU and AFSCME; it’s his path of least resistance. All that’s standing between us and BVR is Roberta Lynch, and while she is competent and determined, she is not as high-profile as the other well-known political entities opposing BVR’s anti-worker vision. BVR wants his first impressive displays for his trophy room wall, and I’m afraid his aim will be to place the face of AFSCME and SEIU there.

Comment by Stumpy's bunker Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:18 am
==FYI - Missouri is not right to work ==

Kentucky is not right to work also.

Comment by Rusty618 Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:24 am
Can the universities muddle through until the spring. Not just Champaign-Urbana, but the others.If they can, April or even later seems plausible.

Unfortunately, it seems that’s the time Chicagoans will be finding out how much higher their property tax bill will be under Mayor Rahm’s property tax hike. Adding an income tax increase to that, maybe somewhat retroactive, and even if temporary, could be, uh, controversial. Especially with the soon-to-be nation’s Number One Democrat advocating for tax cuts for the middle class. Yes, cuts.

All the Rauner-bashing is fine if you like that sort of thing, but I still want to know: how much more am I going to have to pay. And when.

Comment by Cassandra Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:31 am
== but I still want to know: how much more am I going to have to pay. ==

It’s going to depend on which taxes are raised and which, if any, corporate loopholes are closed.

But at the State level you can probably figure on the equivalent of 6% flat income tax rate, assuming the State wants a somewhat balanced budget and is NOT doing a shift of TRS normal pension funding to the local school districts. If you think the State will up the ante in school funding so local property tax bills can actually be cut, then we are looking at more like 7% - 8% with a flat income tax.

Shifting to a progressive income tax could lower that burden for the average state income tax payer but we wouldn’t see that change for a couple of years at the earliest.

But if the State were to do a TRS normal pension cost shirt, the State income tax rate could be lower but the local property taxes would have to go way up. It’s all one combined ball of yarn which is why changing anything is so hard; the only question is who specifically pays which portion.

==And when. ==

Either in January / February 2016 or after the November elections.

Comment by RNUG Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:47 am
RTW is fine until you reach age 50 & get RIF’d.

Comment by Hedley Lamarr Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:51 am
“how much more am I going to have to pay. And when.” My guess is when companies, vendors, contractors, medical (hospitals, doctors, etc) start suing for backpay! Taxes will probably go up right after 2016 election. I can’t see the Dems raising taxes before the election.

Comment by Mama Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:54 am
” while all the states around us have….”

progressive income taxes.

Comment by JS Mill Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:55 am
Thanks RNUG.

Rather scary. I wonder, the higher the income tax increase, the more likely they’ll wait until after November, using sweeps and borrowing to tide us over. Politicians of both parties love to borrow. That’s how we got here, I guess.

Comment by Cassandra Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:56 am
My question is, What happens to IL jobs if state or local taxes are NOT increased for the next 3 years?

Comment by Mama Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 10:59 am
BTW … after re-reading my comment above, I realized the unions have a push-back of sorts on the local property tax issue. The unions just need to keep saying it is the State’s primary responsibility to fund the schools and then cite the percentage each local school district gets from the State. High property taxes are all the State’s fault. During his campaign Rauner promised to increase school funding (and in fairness he has, slightly), so push the funding responsibility right back on Rauner and keep doing it.

It will have to be carefully phrased because we here all know that just means higher taxes at the State level … but to the average voter, the State funding the schools just means someone else pays and property taxes went down. Combine that with a vague call to eliminate some State mandates on the school districts and you might have a winning issue. Or you at least expose the hypocrisy of claiming you can cut property taxes with out increasing funding from the State oir some other source.

Comment by RNUG Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 11:06 am
== Rather scary. I wonder, the higher the income tax increase, the more likely they’ll wait until after November, using sweeps and borrowing to tide us over. –

Yeah, it is. I didn’t specifically say so, but I hedged my guessed rates on the high side because I’m assuming there will also be something like “Build Illinois” as part of a grand deal and they will need a revenue stream to guarantee that bonding.

Same for the two dates for a tax increase. If something is passed in Jan/Feb, it will be more likely to include yet another sunset clause so it can be sold during the campaigns as a necessary “temporary” increase. But a temporary increase won’t make the rating houses happy.

Comment by RNUG Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 11:14 am
Isn’t it time to start work on the 2017 budget? At the rate they’re going, Springfield won’t pass a 2016 budget until it’s too late to have any meaning. In the meantime, nonprofits and businesses have had to closed their doors. Rauner the candidate gave the impression he wanted to help African American communities, particularly the businesses. His decisions as Governor have hurt us disproportionately.

Comment by Anonymous Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 11:30 am
===The Sunday Spin podcasts: State Rep. Ron Sandack of Downers Grove, the House GOP floor leader, said an agreement to end the Springfield stalemate may not come until April, after the March 15 primary elections.===

Just read the correspondence from the state’s universities and this premise of April isn’t going to work…

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 11:31 am
===The Sunday Spin podcasts: State Rep. Ron Sandack of Downers Grove, the House GOP floor leader, said an agreement to end the Springfield stalemate may not come until April, after the March 15 primary elections.===

“@RonSandack: I’m frustrated 2, but taking steps towards reforming IL more important than short term budget stalemate.”

Let’s be very clear, no misunderstanding;

The Owl states that he doesn’t see this budget stalemate ending until after the Primaries…

In September, The Owl tweeted…

“@RonSandack: I’m frustrated 2, but taking steps towards reforming IL more important than short term budget stalemate.”

The Owl knows, it’s not the Primary, it’s willfull withholding of completing a budget until vites eliminating Collective Bargaining and Prevailing Wage take place.

The Owl knows…

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 11:36 am
Right to work looks like a red herring to me. The real show down is when he starts to negotiate with State employee unions. Rauner will not leave empty handed. The Dem’s got soft shoving around Quinn, Rauner going to be a little tougherr

Comment by mokenavince Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 11:49 am
=Rauner promised to increase school funding (and in fairness he has, slightly)=

Saying you will do it and actually doing it are two different things all together. The state IS making it’s GSA payments but it is NOT making it’s MCAT payments. Very quietly, or at least under the media and pol radar, some MCAT’s are being gutted. The ones that are important to people that have to run buses especially.

The increase in funding is academic until it really happens, kinda like a corporation cooking its books to look profitable when it is not. Just another benefit of having a business guy running the state.

Comment by JS Mill Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 11:53 am
Gotta wonder if Slickhead Sandy was so anti worker when he was in the Mayor’s seat

Best story of the day is how the SuperStars sent out 4 IDOT crews to bolt “sorry closed” signs on a rest area at mile marker 101 on I55 — they claim Sherman turned off the water, but nothin’ happened. Now SuperStars must unbolt.
Pricetag for this blunder _____________?

Comment by Anonin' Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 12:01 pm
I have wondered how Mayor Sandack would feel about “takin’ out state loans” for money owed, muni bankruptcy, property tax relief for the town’s schools…

I have to wonder if Mayor Sandack would be in one of those “ck” emails…

The Owl got spooked by Uihlein and fell into line for his own incumbent security(?)

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 12:07 pm
Believing Bruce Rauner after what he has put everyone through and after seeing his record as governor, takes an act of faith that even Tom Cruise couldn’t muster for Scientology.

Believing Bruce Rauner will take an act of faith that even the folks in Jonestown couldn’t attain, even before they passed around the Kool-Aid.

Believing Bruce Rauner will need to be an act of faith on an order of magnitude similar to believing that Enzyte enhances your manhood, cures cancer and freshen your breath.

Politics can enable politicians to make promises as bizarre as Donald Trump’s or Barack Obama’s, but we’ve reached a point where even politics and an addiction to morphine can’t save Bruce Rauner.

Hey, Governor Rauner - see that thing that looks like cigar ashes? That is your credibility, and you smoked it like that last tank of petrol in your garbage van.

Anyone who literally threw their new governorship into the trash, lit it on fire, and then blamed everyone else for making it disappear, has to be taken to a very special remote island off the coast of Moloka’i and quarantined.

Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 12:34 pm
I know it may deviate from the pro-union mindset found here, but a prominent Democrat is quoted as suggesting the budget malaise may last until after the November 2016 general election. Perhaps Oswego Silly forgot to check with members of “his party” about timing before his usually daily rants. http://dailynorthwestern.com/2015/12/04/city/daniel-biss-illinois-might-not-see-a-budget-until-november-2016/

Comment by Georg Sande Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 1:11 pm
Hey Cassandra, are you enjoying that 67% tax cut you received? Surely it’s a caviar Christmas after getting back all of that money from the last scary tax increase.

Comment by refund Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 1:20 pm
@Vanillaman

Best. Rant. Ever.

Comment by Juvenal Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 2:00 pm
- Georg Sande -

1) Biss is NOT the governor. The governor, the one person who will sign a budget into law, is more involved than Biss, and far more accountable too.

2) I’m a Republican, not a Raunerite. Please learn.

3) Your constant trolling of me really doesn’t help your usually weak attempts to make a point.

I’m not on your lawn.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 2:05 pm
Vanilla-I bow before your eloquence and totally agree with Juvenal.

Comment by Twice baked Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 4:27 pm
For Oswego Jilly.
http://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/Rauner-Lengthens-Estimate-on-End-of-Budget-Impasse-360853601.html?_osource=SocialFlowTwt_CHWardRoom

Comment by Georg Sande Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 5:21 pm
More of the same tax and spend garbage here. When was the last time the state cut spending or eliminated a program?

Comment by Tone Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 5:38 pm
- Georg Sande - do you have a … point?

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 6:16 pm
When was the last time the state cut spending or eliminated a program?

When voters wanted it done. This is a democracy. You are in the minority and with a governor like you have now - will remain in the minority.

You see, governments are about services. As a citizen, you are entitled to those services, whether or not you pay taxes. NO one gets ahead on taxes because those who can pay, do for themselves and for those who cannot. You also have to pay for things you don’t need, or may never need. It is the cost of citizenship.

What you are suggesting is that we cash in what it means to be a citizen in a democracy, for a cash savings that can never be realized.

Grow up. You are not a consumer here - you are not a taxpayer - you are a citizen. Embrace it and do your part. Stop complaining about it. Get off your fat duff and change it.

I bet if you really did that, you will discover that there are real reasons why armchair quarterbacks like you are ignored. You will discover that segregating people into camps of “who deserves service” and “who does not” is unproductive and just doesn’t belong in government at all.

Governments aren’t about running a pop stand. They are about stuff that is a lot more important.

Comment by VanillaMan Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 6:20 pm
A red herring is correct. Except the general RTW is not the major problem. Bruce will say changing prevailing wage is not attacking RTW. The PR word games will be continuous as every bill GOP bill will have some anti-Union language tucked in. When Bruce drops his fair share attack them maybe he can be given so credit.

Hurrah for Spkr Madigan for having been the watchdog on this. Spkr Madigan’s needs praises for being highly demanding on this one issue. Hopefully Spkr will continue since none of us just citizens or most legislators will be able to identify all the chicanery Bruce will attempt to get any ding he can against Unions.

Comment by IL17Progressive Monday, Dec 7, 15 @ 7:33 pm
Vanilla @6:20. Do you really think that there is NO room in the Illinois budget for expenditure savings. …..you are entitled to those services… Really? I would rather have salt for roads than EDGE tax credits. I would rather have my beloved World Shooting Complex open rather than giving Chicago $ to pay off police abuses. I would rather have the state fund LIHEAP than pumping more $’s into the state University systems so some school administrator can knock down $200k pension after 20 yrs service.the debate has, and always will be, what are essential services.and another point, as a citizen, you are entitled to question elected officials about this.

Comment by Blue dog dem Tuesday, Dec 8, 15 @ 4:40 am
Blue dog–

I’m glad we can agree on LIHEAP and road salt vs. EDGE credits.

I think we can both agree that Chicago cops shouldn’t be abusing the rights of the citizens of Chicago, which would save the citizens and the City beaucoup bucks.

The universities definitely need to question things, like: why are U of I students paying funds to support the Division of Intercollegiate Athletics, which allegedly made almost $80 MILLION last year? Or the 2 palace fitness joints (ARC and CIRCE) on campus?

But why should the state be funding a shooting complex? If there’s such a market for this type of facility, shouldn’t the private market have built it, with either investor funds or bank loans, and shouldn’t the facility be owned and operated by someone in the private sector? Where I sit, the shooting complex screams “boondoggle!!”, and “some politician using public funds to benefit their re-election campaign.”

Comment by Lynn S. b Tuesday, Dec 8, 15 @ 6:51 am
I would rather have salt for roads than EDGE tax credits. I would rather have my beloved World Shooting Complex open rather than giving Chicago $ to pay off police abuses. I would rather have the state fund LIHEAP than pumping more $’s into the state University systems so some school administrator can knock down $200k pension after 20 yrs service.the debate has, and always will be, what are essential services.and another point, as a citizen, you are entitled to question elected officials about this.

I thought I covered that - oh, I did…

Grow up. You are not a consumer here - you are not a taxpayer - you are a citizen. Embrace it and do your part. Stop complaining about it. Get off your fat duff and change it.

Additionally, you are not some kind of a super-citizen entitled to demand your approach to how our government operates. While we all have a part in it, everyone, including those who cannot pay, are entitled as citizens to the same government services as you or I.

If you want our government to do something about how it handles EDGE credits, or salt on roads, then you need to better understand how that comes about. Thinking that all these services are just one BIG shopping ticket at a flea market isn’t how governments work.

You can take your shopping cart and remove one item and return it for another in order to meet your budget. But this isn’t about shopping, so leave your shopping mentality behind. This is about something bigger - government services. It isn’t the same thing at all.

You, and a whole lot of people have been snookered for years into thinking that government should be run like a house budget. That is utterly ridiculous. There is absolutely no comparison, but that faux political approach still harvests the votes, doesn’t it?

You are entitled to government services as a citizen. You don’t buy citizenship. This isn’t SAMS club. Thinking that government services can be picked and chosen like fruit at IGA is like thinking you can fly a space shuttle because you once flew in coach.

Governments are not filled with nasty people trying to scam you. It is filled with your neighbors with the same values as you. After all, we all elected them. They are running a government with the resources at hand. You aren’t, but you certainly can join them whenever you really want to be a part of one of them.

You will definitely learn something if you do.

Comment by VanillaMan Tuesday, Dec 8, 15 @ 7:39 am
VanillaMan’s comment needs to part of our core civics curriculum. The idea of citizenship has been lost and it needs to come back.

Comment by Angry Chicagoan Tuesday, Dec 8, 15 @ 8:36 am
–When was the last time the state cut spending or eliminated a program?–

Happened quite a bit after 2008. There are great big honking budget books on the state website. If you really care to know, feel free to educate yourself.

You’ll lose a mindless talking point but gain knowledge.

–Do you really think that there is NO room in the Illinois budget for expenditure savings. –

I don’t recall VMan or anyone else ever saying that.

But it is the foundation for every StrawMan argument that believes it solves multi-billion deficits with cuts of a few million.

“Because you’ve got to start somewhere, am I right people….”

And that’s where it always ends.

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Dec 8, 15 @ 8:54 am
Do you really think that there is NO room in the Illinois budget for expenditure savings.

No billion dollar budget is pristine. That is also true with billions of anything. Statistically, it is certain that if waste is estimated at 4%, then out of a billion - you’d have a lot of waste. That statistic however, does not help anyone, it does not justify anything, nor does it give credibility to the types of approaches advocated by many of my conservative friends.

If 4% of a billion of something is estimated to be waste - then you have 96% that isn’t waste. You don’t do damage to the 96% in order to lower that hypothetical 4%.

Illinois government waste is estimated at such a low percentage, it will take MORE money to unearth it, than it would ever recover.

Do not be fooled by political lies. It is easy for any politician to finger point and call something within the billions spent, and call it waste. We’ve been hearing this line of BS for decades, and it has literally poisoned the vital relationships between citizens and their governments.

As America twists away from citizenship towards consumerism, politicians have had a hey day off of this devolution. I believe Americans are so poorly educated about how governments work, they deal with government issues in the poorest way imaginable - like they are shopping for undies online.

Worse, every two years this poor approach is reinforced by politicians often as uninformed as anyone else about government and government spending.

I hate the idea that “education” is a problem because as a conservative, this has been such an abused excuse used by liberals. Yet, at the moment, I cannot come up with a better way of describing what has been happening in the US for the past thirty years.

Comment by VanillaMan Tuesday, Dec 8, 15 @ 9:26 am