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Today’s Sun-Times editorial sets the stage.
Following the Democrats’ Election Day harvest, the ball is now in Emil Jones’ court. Commanding a veto-proof majority, the state Senate president has the opportunity he long has been waiting for to put on a full-scale press for education-funding reform. An ardent opponent of funding schools through a reliance on property taxes, as are we, he now is in a position to confront Gov. Blagojevich’s hard-line stance against such obvious solutions as raising state taxes.
Almost as if on cue, the Illinois Federation of Teachers begins running radio ads today.
Here’s the script:
Illinois Federation of Teachers
60-second Radio Spot: “Now’s the Timeâ€
November 2006Music: Montage of ambient sound effects – school, street corner, work place.
Male Voice 1: Finally…the elections are over! Now, let’s see what the people we elected can do.
Female Voice 1: They need to roll up their sleeves and do the right thing by our families.
Male Voice 2: How ‘bout decent healthcare for me and my kids? That’s what I want from Springfield.
Male Voice 3: The politicians should be protecting retirement funds. So it’ll there when we need it.
Female Voice 2: Face it. Without good schools our children don’t have much of a future.
Jim Dougherty: I’m Jim Dougherty, President of the Illinois Federation of Teachers, the IFT.
SFX: Signature musical chord
Jim Dougherty: There are no easy answers to the problems facing our state….but now’s the time for our newly elected leaders to end partisan politics and work together to tackle these challenges head on.
With strong leadership and the right priorities from both parties, we can support public education, make sure all families have access to affordable healthcare and protect retirement funds for our senior citizens.
But to do that, we need to be sure to keep the pressure on our elected officials and pay attention to how they vote….long after election day.
Announcer: A message from the Illinois Federation of Teachers, a union of professionals.
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 3:19 pm
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Good ad. I hope Emil Jones is listening. The state income tax is ridiculously low compared to other states. Increasing it could help to eliminate some of the class disparity in our school system.
Comment by Bridget Dooley Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 3:31 pm
Why should teacher salaries go up when private sector salaries are going down?
What we need is a plan to improve education across-the-board.
However, both the Dems and GOP offer education plans better designed to hold their coalitions together than to improve education of students.
The Dem solution of more money for schools holds together the coalition of educators, unions, liberals, Blacks, etc.
The GOP solution of diverting money from public schools holds together the coalition of neo-segregationists, religious schools, the quasi-rich, anti-tax extemists, anti-union people, etc.
Comment by Carl Nyberg Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 3:44 pm
Bridget-
Yeah, as if income tax is the only burden of taxation Illinois citizens pay.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/452.html
Already 14th hardest hit in the nation, and continually rising. I would prefer NOT to be in the top ten.
Comment by Danimal Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 3:52 pm
The Tax Eaters are loose and preying on Tay Payers. Beware interest groups and politicians who say they’ll raise one tax to lower another. Never, ever happens! I hope Blago holds firm.
Comment by NW Side Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 3:55 pm
Carl — Who said anything about teacher pay? The ad says more money for schools, but no one is arguing it should go to teacher salaries. Smaller classrooms, better teacher training, better technology and modern textbooks, sure. But the only argument we’ve heard for more teacher pay is rewarding teachers who teach in high-risk schools and teachers of exceptional merit. Now, how can anyone who considers themselves a free-marketer argue that we shouldn’t reward people who take the toughest assignments and do the best work?
Increasing school funding is a traditional Republican ideal: investing in our infrastructure and our most precious resources and rewarding efforts that yield the greatest fruit.
It’s also a Christian ideal: How can you expect our kids to grow up to follow The Bible and know Christ’s Word if they can’t read The Bible?
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 4:44 pm
This state deserves all the bad policy decisions they just voted for with this election. That huge sucking sound is our money pouring into Springfield. More bad news for our economy.
Comment by nervous Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 4:59 pm
I don’t think teachers who work in challenged schools want more money.
They want administrators who fix problems, not make them.
They want students to behave in class.
They want parents to be involved in a constructive way.
And in Proviso Township they want the schools to be optimized around education, not local politics.
If the bottom line was monetary compensation they would have gone into another field.
Comment by Carl Nyberg Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 5:03 pm
YDD-Of COURSE they don’t mention teacher salaries. If they were more honest, they’d say
Nondescript Voice-I’m a 55 year old teacher, and I want to retire next year at 75% of my base salary, which has gone up by 20% for the last two years. It’s going to take a lot of tax dollars from those schmucks who don’t work for the government to cover that pension.
How do we fool those jamoches into raising their income taxes so that I can retire on a pension bigger than most of their salaries, and make them think its “for the children?”
Another Voice- I really hate teaching in public high schools, but after continuing to breath in the system for 20 years, having taken a ton of “softball” education classes, and having complete job protection through the tenure laws, I make about $10K per month regardless of how poorly I teach my students.
How can we buy enough political votes to raise the income tax to make sure I can keep getting this overpaid until I retire and the system collapses under its own weight?
Moderator-Yes friends, we really need this tax increase to keep education reforms from taking hold… things like having to live with pensions those poor schmucks get who pay our bills, having to SUCCEED to keep our jobs, and getting paid based on how well teach our students.
The ONLY way we can keep on this gravy train is to pass the tax increase so people won’t look too hard at the way we spend their money.
So remember, pester our legislators (they’re for sale at AMAZINGLY low rates!) and keep telling people “It’s for the children!”(giggle giggle snort)
Comment by PalosParkBob Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 5:24 pm
Rich, you forgot to add “Cue all the school haters”…
Sheesh people, we’ve got schools in this state that have roofs collapsing. You don’t think we should do something about it?
Comment by NW burbs Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 5:42 pm
A+ Illinois is going to be pushing for the SB750 bill now. Hard. There’s good and bad about it. More good than bad.
Just wait for the blitz to come from them and the people affiliated with A+. If you didn’t see stuff prior to the election, there will be much more to come.
Comment by Tessa Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 6:19 pm
I don’t think you’ll find anybody against schools or education funding. But there is a little thing called fiscal responsibility and accountability, neither of which will get talked about. The answer is of course, dump more money into the system.
Comment by Danimal Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 6:22 pm
Anyone ever heard of a tax referendum?
Comment by anon Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 6:30 pm
Vouchers. Add vouchers.
Comment by kimsch Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 6:33 pm
NW Burbs, I don’t think reflexively increasing all teacher salaries is the answer. Of course buildings need to be maintained. But I don’t care how much you pay teachers, it won’t matter unless arents get involved/
Comment by Wumpus Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 8:10 pm
Jim Dougherty said, “With strong leadership and the right priorities from both parties, we can support public education, make sure all families have access to affordable healthcare and protect retirement funds for our senior citizens.”
What right does the IFT have to ask the Governor to spend so much political capital, when they couldn’t even themselves muster up the political will to endorse, Rich Whitney, the candidate that best represented their positions on the issues? Maybe the IFT is just biased–I see that Dougherty says “both parties” even though there are THREE legally established, major parties in Illinois. Maybe he’s referring to the Democrats and Greens?
Comment by Squideshi Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 8:29 pm
IFT endorsed Governor Blagojevich. IFT doesn’t go for the candidate that represents them on the issues. If that were the case, Blago wouldn’t have received their support. IFT looks for the candidate who is likely to win and then wants payback. I can’t really argue with the strategy in today’s political environment. I am sure there were a lot of teachers who were casting those ballots with a pained look on their faces. Blago didn’t support them the first time around and I hope IFT isn’t banking on a “promise” from him - if so, I hope they have a signed memo…
Comment by Anon Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 8:36 pm
HB750 - “This is a tax increase under the guise of a tax swap. Income tax will increase by 2%, business income tax will increase by 4%, and there will be a new tax on services at 6%. It is theoretically going to include a tax abatement to reduce the education portion of property tax bills. The estimated increase in taxes will be $7.2 billion; the estimated property tax reduction will be $2.5 billion.”
Great, it’s not even one week after the election and I am already trying to keep the $$ from flying out of my wallet. IFT - call it what it is, a tax increase. I agree that we need more money for our school system, if it is used in the right way and it doesn’t only benefit the wealthier schools (as HB750 does, again). How much of this $$ will go towards higher teacher salaries and a sweeter retirment package? I am offended by the way this is being packaged. The voters have a history of not paying attention in this state and I don’t see any changes soon. We deserve what we get…..
Comment by Anon Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 9:56 pm
There is no guarantee that the revenues from the increased state income taxes in a tax swap will go to the schools.
There is every possibility that a substantial portion of the revenues will replace state monies currently going to the schools. So the property taxes will go down for a couple of years
then will begin rising again because schools will still be strapped for cash. Soon, most taxpayers will be paying much higher taxes overall as their property taxes will accelerate and the income tax increase will still be there. Remember, the state cannot prevent local school districts from taxing property.
There would be some winners here. Pension income (private, public, Social Security) is not taxed in Illinois. At present, the bulk of most retirees’ income comes from pensions, so this group would see a reduction in property taxes but likely only wealthier retirees would be affected by an income tax increase. Mo way are the politicians going to touch that one. Unfortunately, this means the tax burden again would fall on middle income families with schoolkids who are already stretched to the max living in expensive Chicago suburbs where the schools are believe to be of higher quality. Whether they truly are better is another issue.
There is a better way. A truly progressive state income tax, for example combined with a surcharge on the really well off. But Emil Jones doesn’t want that. He’s rich. It would bite him. Neither does Blago. He’s rich too. Nearly all our political leaders are rich. They want the burden to stay on the middle middle class.
Comment by Cassandra Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 10:44 pm
I think Illinois needs to start pushing for revenue simplification. Start by cutting all the fees that Blago increased. Get rid of toll roads. Fund education through the income tax (i.e. raise the income tax). Rewrite the Illinois constitution banning property taxes. Cut the gas tax. Cut the cigarette tax. End the lottery (not sell it, but end it). End casino gambling as a major source of revenue. ETC. Basically, get rid of all these regressive taxes and stick with a simplified income tax. I like the flat tax Illinois currently has, so keep it that way. But I am sure that Emil has his own ideas….
Comment by Lovie's Leather Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 10:46 pm
LL: how do municipalities go about paying for, you know, anything without property taxes? You’re telling me that people in Carbondale are going to be cool with their income taxes paying for roads, police, fire, and more in Chicago? Because eliminating the property and placing, what, a 15%+ income tax and distributing money based on where the clout/need is, well, it will cause everywhere in the state that is not Chicago to rebel. Some of your ideas are reasonable, but keep in mind that property taxes pay for a lot more than schools. Schools are just the single largest part of the bill.
Don’t get me wrong, a lot of money flows to Chicago no matter what, but that would be politically impossible.
Comment by jerry Monday, Nov 13, 06 @ 11:09 pm
a) Taxes will go up on corporations, services, and income (however tax credits will make sure this income tax increase is progressive). Nobody is trying to cover this up. A+ Illinois has been honest about this costing money and the need to increase revenue to pay for this - its an investment in the future. e.g. Paying for schools now is cheaper than incarcerating graduates who can’t read or find a job later ($6400 vs $20,000 annually per person). Besides a more educated workforce will be good for business in the long term.
b) This isn’t just a temporary property tax decrease. At least in Lake County, property taxes can’t go up without a referendum. Moreover, the goal of the legislation is to GUARANTEE that the funds do go to improving public schools and don’t just ‘rob peter to pay paul’. If this is your fear, lets build some more accountability into 750 rather than rail against it.
c) Say what you want about teacher salaries. In the city of chicago, the average teacher pay is less than that of a garbage/sanitation worker. For a professional position requiring substantial education that’s atrocious.
d) the funds here won’t go to raise teacher salaries. They are meant to go to specific effective programs that work in well off schools - ie. early childhood education.
e) This won’t bring the top down. Period. There’s no reasonable reason it would .
Comment by Anon Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 12:11 am
I am a retired teacher. I wish that the politicians would have to teach in some of the schools I taught in for some years. Let them come in as subs. I taught in the Chicago Public School System for about ten years. I taught in parochial schools for another ten years. I had worked most of my life. I worked since I was 16 and retired at 63. My husband and I both paid into social security for many years. When I retired I had the choice of my husband SS (he passed away 12 years ago) or mine. Since his was more I took his. It would have been about $1150.00 a month. Because I worked for the CPS for 10 years, it was cut by 66%. I receive about $330.00 a month. What happended to all the other years we paid into? I still had kids at home. My CPS teacher’s pension was not 75% of my salary.
There are parents that tell you that they won’t tell their kids to behave in class because they, (the parents) don’t like you the teacher. You’ve never met these people before. You have sick kids that parents won’t come to pick up. If they see the school phone number on the caller ID they won’t answer. So when you call from your own cell phone, they answer. When you have an eighth grader threaten to kill you, he gets one day suspension.
Some principals have all the better students in one class. The was a boy in my class who was very intellegent, but because he had behavior problems, he went into one of the other class rooms. When the test scores come back, your class is compared to the class of high achievers your class does not compare. So they pass on and keep together many classes of behavior problems. It’s not easy to teach in an environment like that. It’s not very often you reach the same scores as the high achievers. So does that make you a bad teacher?
I don’t understand how any of the teaching associations could endorse Rod Blago. He’s not funding their pensions properly.
Teachers spend so much of their own money for students. You pay for field trips when their parents can’t afford it. You buy the class picture, the one with the whole class so the kid can have something to remember. You buy all kinds of supplies. In one school, we were given one ream of copy paper a month. I had two or three math books for the whole class. I had a Spanish Teacher’s Manuel. I was not teaching in Spanish. I made up all my own worksheets on cases of paper that I bought. I finally purchased a used copy machine so I could make tests, and worksheets for the class.
Principals can help a school succeed or fail. He/She can help a class or hinder it. You better believe there is a lot of politics in school. If the principal doesn’t like you, you’re toast. People still teach. We like working with the kids. It a kick to see in a kid’s face/eyes that they finally understand something. How proud they are when they do learn something.
Teacher’s still have to go and get more education to keep their certification up. That isn’t cheap. How many politicians have to do that? I know a lot of people didn’t like Paul Vallas, but I thought he did a lot of good for the schools. He stopped social passing. I had a third grader who was reading between a kindergarten and first grade level. I wanted to hold him back because if he couldn’t read, how could he advance. My principal wanted to know what my justification was. When I said he couldn’t read, she didn’t think that was a good enough reason.
When I retired I didn’t keep up my certification. There isn’t enough money in the world to be a substitute teacher. I would rather donate my time to a school or a kid that’s having a problem and really wants to learn.
Granted there are good and bad teachers. But to say they are greedy and money gubbing is just uncalled for. I would like to see ALL principals have to go back to the classroom and teach for at least a week. Not go to a friends school and get one of the top classes, but get some of these at risk kids, kids with behavior problems. Let them get a taste of what is is in the trenches. Of course, no one can know that they are a principal somewhere. That would be very interesting.
I just think teacher’s need to get some respect for what they are trying to do. People don’t always hear what teachers do on their own. I used to work with kids for help with reading two or three mornings a week - no extra pay. The kids would come on and off. Then the parents or principal want to know what you have done to help the child succeed. Letters were sent home, and they had to be approved by the principal so she knew what was going on too.
Teachers have a tough job. I loved teaching. I could see the difference in the kids from the time I first started teaching to the time I retired. Please, have some consideration for teachers who are really trying to teach the kids.
Comment by Mom Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 12:53 am
[I don’t think you’ll find anybody against schools or education funding. But there is a little thing called fiscal responsibility and accountability, neither of which will get talked about. The answer is of course, dump more money into the system.]~Danimal
How much do other industrialized nations spend, per student, as compared to the United States? Anyone know?
Also, if it is LESS overall than what we spend here, why the heck are they kicking our tails on the international tests?
Funding has to be tied to some type of accountability, and the best teachers need to be paid more. The pay is so lousy that the best would-be teachers often opt away from education, as they know they’ll make more $ elsewhere.
Those who take the lower pay do it as a labor of love, because they sure as heck aren’t making a ton of money at it, that’s for sure.
Comment by Angie Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 1:02 am
PalosParkBob — I bet you’re fun at Parent-teacher conferences.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. If you think teaching is so easy, start teaching. If you think running a school is so simply, principals are in short supply. If you think you understand what it takes to run a school district, you really should spend your time convincing your neighbors and running for the school board.
When you figure out how to balance the state’s budget, fully fund our schools, and provide property tax relief, all without raising taxes, you can apply for a post in the Governor’s office. I hear they’re hiring.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 2:19 am
Amen, YDD. Pee Pee Bob likes to ignore the facts when they don’t fit his preconceived notion of how screwed up all the schools are and how overpaid all the educators are. The average TRS pension is about $38,000 per year and the average IL teacher salary is about $56,000 per year; certainly competitive, but not the windfall that PPB makes them out to be.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 2:50 am
God…please please please tell me if this passes, we’ll at least stop having to listen to SOB teacher stories like Mom’s….I am so sick of ‘Persecuted Teacher Complex’, I am ready to give them every single penny of my income, just so I don’t have to listen to how teachers have to buy their own supplies, buy their entire class lunch everyday, and perform emergency tracheotomies on a daily basis with dull, rusty scissors because there is no money to buy new ones.
Comment by Compassion Fatigued Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 6:30 am
I bet more than one of these folks griping about the teachers is a farmer. They really hate it when somebody with a legitimate gripe steals their spotlight.
Comment by anon Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 7:02 am
In reality education will not improve and educated children will not increase until there is a groundswell among parents of public school children who impress upon their children that they learn. And then back this up a home by respecting, through their words and actions, reading, math, history etc. Read with them from little on, help them with their numbers and memorization and congratulate them on success. Parents should see that their children get to school each day and on time. Kids should go out the door knowing the adults at home believe in learning.
Until this happens fresh boxes of crayons and shiny scissors won’t make a bit of difference.
Comment by diane Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 7:45 am
Angie … what are these “international tests” that you are referring to that we apparently are getting our tails kicked on?
Exactly.
Comment by YNM Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 8:02 am
YDD-I’ve been a teacher, both at college and high school (parochial). I’ve run for the school Boards. I’ve told you this before.
It’s a basic tenat of education that a student has to be taught and retaught twice before something sinks in. I guess I’ll have to “reteach” you again. I’ve also taught as a substitute at 14 high schools, something “Mom” said she wouldn’t do for any amount of money.
I don’t talk the talk unless I walk the walk.
Anon- You’re so wrong on the facts I scarcely know where to begin.
First there is very little correlation between spending and criminal activity. If there were, you’d have more jail birds per capita in Naperville than Chicago. Naperville District 204, a “rich” district, spends only $8,666 per student compared to $9,564 in Chicago. Chicago pays it’s teachers about $3K per year more than Naperville, and about $8K more for its adminstrators.
As far as property taxes not going up in Lake County without a referendum, you’re dead wrong on that, too.
There are at least three ways a school district can raise real estate taxes without voter approval. Escalation at the smaller of CPI or 5% happens automatically under the PTELL “tax cap” laws. Schools can sell working cash bonds without referendum and add the bond repayment to your tax bills. This can raise your taxes by as much as 20%. They can also increase your taxes for “Life Safety” needs like roof replacement, or air conditioning, by selling bonds and adding the repayment to your real estate tax bills without voter approval. It only takes the Regional Super of schools approval, and they are VERY loose when they evaluate requests.
As far as your argument that Chicago teachers should be paid more than “sanitation workers”, the average teacher salary in Chicago is $61,178 for nine months work ($6800 per work month). According to the US Dept of Labor, Civil Engineers who DESIGN and ENGINEER the systems the sanitation workers work in only make $67K per year ($5,600 per work month, 18% LESS than Chicago teachers). I guess you make a case for paying sanitation workers much less, but NOT for paying public school teachers more!
As far as the money “not going for teacher raises”, that’s absolute nonsense! There will be no such limitation under HB750 increases in general state “formula” aid.
You were right about one thing. HB750 won’t bring the “top down”. Roundout Elementary School District 72, the “poster child” for funding inequity in Illinois, spends about $24K per student yet still receives about $600 per student in state aid. They’ll get EVEN MORE under the state formula if HB750 passes.
So much for HB750 being about “helping the most needy”!
Comment by PalosParkBob Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 8:32 am
YMN-The tests to which she is refering are the TIMSS tests. They are generally provided at the Digest of Educaational statistics.
If you even attempted to “google” this, you would have known this.
I guess you really didn’t WANT to find them.
Exactly!
Comment by PalosParkBob Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 8:35 am
I would wager that she wasn’t referring to any specific tests, only to things she had read or heard. And the TIMSS tests, as you well know, are in the areas of Math and Science, while the PRILS assessment was probably the closest thing in the area of reading & literacy. I just like to see people back up their statements with facts rather than regurgitate rhetoric they’ve heard others use.
I guess if you were as intelligent as you claim, you would have figured out that is what I meant in my comment.
And you’d also realize that the TIMSS assessment is much broader than simply showing us getting our behinds kicked. But, again, I am sure you knew that, just as I am sure you’ve read all the results and spent time going through the analysis and recommendations that came out of the results.
For others, though, who are not as brilliant as you, these links at least provide some information that people can use, minus the posturing and spin, and without statements as scientifically accurate as “getting our tails kicked” …
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2006/analysis/sa03b.asp
http://www.ed.gov/inits/Math/tmpres2.html
Comment by YNM Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 9:00 am
By the way, PalosPark, did you win any of the school board elections your ran in?
Comment by YNM Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 9:01 am
YMN-That’s a good reference you provided. I usually just look at math and science comparisons, because that’s the best “apples to apples” comparison, since different languages have differing degrees of difficulty.
One interesting thing in the PIRLS test on which I’d like to know your opinion.
It seems, just as with Math and Science, that our students lose ground to our international competition the longer our children are in our school system.
How do you account for that?
You don’t have to be “brilliant” to figure this stuff out. You just need to do a little homework, care about the kids more that the system, and have some good, conservative, common sense.
No wonder “Big Ed” can’t solve our educational problems!
PS- I lost my last Board race as a challenger. The local teacher’s union set a new record for political cash contributions to board members, as well as election support and “recommendation” mailings.
Any surprise there?
Comment by PalosParkBob Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 11:24 am
I’m not sure you’d really like to know what I think or where I stand. You might not like me too much. And actually, to figure this stuff out, I would agree that you just need to do a little homework. I’m not sure you need to “care about the kids more than the system” or have “conservative” common sense. In fact, I thought the whole idea of common sense was that it was common, not owned by one group or another, conservative or liberal.
But, anyway …
I would agree that it appears our students lose some ground as they move through the system. And to be honest with you, I’m not sure there is one reason for that. But, I would say that equitable funding is part of the solution (I don’t just mean MORE money, but EQUITABLE funding so that every student has a similar opportunity to excel). I also think part of the issue is that our public school system is set up differently than others … in who goes, how long they go, and in what and how they are taught. Those are all factors.
In our attempt over the last 50 years to “catch up” (although I’m not sure we were ever really as far behind as certain pundits would want us to believe) we’ve poured more and more into the curriculum. One of the biggest factors you’ll notice is that our international competition (esp. in countries performing better) have a focus on less concepts in their curricula. Try convincing Bob and Sue Jones that to make their kid smarter we are gonng cut the curriculum by more than half.
One of the biggest hold-ups to education reform is not the teacher unions or those in the classrooms … but the idea that more is better. At least that’s part of what I believe.
Imagine teachers wanting to elect a board member who they believed cared about what they cared about and didn’t go around bashing them … the gall of these people!
Comment by YNM Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 11:51 am
Thank you, PalosParkBob, for chiming in. I’ll let you guys argue this out, since you’re both doing so well (wink).
But just to add, if it makes any of you liberals feel better, I’ll fully admit that I’m horrible in the math department while absolutely enamored of science (totally not well-balanced abilities here, for whatever reason) and would probably get my tail kicked, too.
But the point I was trying to make it that you can’t take one variable, such as funding, and think it is the big cure-all. There are lots of reasons that could come into play.
Are American kids spacing out while watching too much tv, learning more about Paris Hilton’s latest whatever, or not being encouraged at home? Who knows what is the case in every case (we had a long, slow cancer issue in my family all through high school, and my grades were terrible as a result of that whole ordeal), but when they look at everyone as a group, not just individual cases, and then they compare the test results internationally, if others are doing better overall (individual cases aside) while spending LESS $ per student, then you have to ask how much the funding matters.
Not saying they don’t need decent funding (just ask JakeCP about his wacky textbook from 1994), but when you compare entire nations who spend different amounts PER STUDENT, that says something, doesn’t it?
We probably need to do a lot of things, most likely, not just throw more money at things all willy nilly.
But I’m not an expert on this stuff, mind you. Just noticing that there’s an awful lot of rhetoric about needing more money, but how much is just propping up some bureaucratic educrat who got a new desk while the kids got outdated textbooks? Something to think about.
But yes, pay the teachers decently. There’s a shortage of them, apparently.
Comment by Angie Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 12:11 pm
Re: “I would wager that she wasn’t referring to any specific tests, only to things she had read or heard.”
Actually, we can easily tell that others are way ahead in the science and technology department by the fact that US automakers are getting their tails kicked by the Japanese.: )
Comment by Angie (post-script) Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 12:17 pm
The income for property tax swap is an incredibly mainstream and well thought out proposal, and it was the centerpiece of Whitney’s campaign for Governor.
Considering he took over 10% of the vote I would hope that our state legislator’s and others would take that as a strong sign to enact HB 750.*
*Note: HB or SB 755 is a bogus, stripped down, and essentially bad piece of legislation based off of 750. I imagine that as this issue grows (as it should), that we’ll start seeing many confusing news stories that substitute one for another.
Comment by Diversity of Thought Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 1:21 pm
Diversity-Don’t read too much into that 10% for Whitney being a “strong sign to enact HB750″. I, many of my friends, and I suspect well over half the Whitney voters selected him as the “none of the above” alternative. If Alfred E. Newman was on the ballot, he would have gotten my vote over Blago and JBT.
YMN-Oddly enough, we probably agree more than we disagree on ed issues. You’ve got an analytical “let the cards fall where they may” attitude that I share when I try to form an opinion.
As far as the “gall” of the unions, I don’t fault them for being politically active in their own self interest. It only “galls” me when they try to line their pockets with increased taxes and they claim its “for the children” when “the children” will receive no better education as a result of the increased revenues.
By the way, I never knew how much the Leaue of Women Voters was tied into the teacher unions in South Cook County before running. Despite having the largest school district in South Cook, they absolutely refused to have a community forum or debate amongst the candidates.
Perhaps this was not such a big surprise. As their commecial shows, thoughtful debate is the “stake through the heart” of the those who support tax increases without while refusing to bring better value for the resources.
Comment by PalosParkBob Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 2:44 pm
Net corporate taxes would go down.
Comment by steve schnorf Tuesday, Nov 14, 06 @ 3:39 pm
THat’s an ad hoc argument Angie, about automakers being proof of our failures in math and science. There are 10 year old children in developing countries kicking our tails in the textile industry, but I’m not sure that says anything about the abilities of American workers. Same thing with technology and countries like India. Cost is not always assocaited with ability or quality.
And I agree that “you can’t take one variable, such as funding, and think it is the big cure-all” … just as you can not take one variable, such as standardized testing, and think it is the big indicator or success or failure. Plenty of students do poorly on standardized testing but excel in the workforce.
If you read the results of things like the TIMSS test, you’ll see they concluded that factors like television watching had little, if any, impact.
I would wonder if issues like healthcare might have an impact as well.
And it’s not about “just giving more” money to education. It’s about EQUITABLE funding. There are districts in this state that spend over $20,000 per student while other are spending about 15% of that. No cost of living differences can account for those inequities.
Idon’t know enough about international school funding to know what impact that might have elsewhere. I also don’t know enough about how many other activities and distractions students in other countries have … or what impact those might have on test results.
The simple fact is, there are A LOT of variables here. None of us has a cut and dry answer. But, I do think the evidence is clear that:
1. our school funding system in this state DOES NOT WORK
2. education does tend to rise and fall, at least here in the good old USA, based on funding as that’s the once source that provides adequate facilities, resources and staff.
Someone mentioned earlier that teachers don’t teach for money … and I would 100% agree with that. They care much more about getting respect and making a difference. But money often gets good candidates in and keeps good teachers there. I think most teachers would like to teach in a building that’s in decent condition, is heated and cooled, and have decent resources to do their job with. And I think most teachers … people, even … would like to see each student have an equal opportunity to be successful.
Comment by YNM Wednesday, Nov 15, 06 @ 7:56 am
Actually, I think those of us who are in favor of funding reform WELCOME dialogue and debate. But we all tire of the same rhetoric and references to the FTN and thechampion.org …
Prove to me that increased funding (as a result of some sort of ed. funding reform) would not increase or enhance education. There is just as much, or little, evidence either way. All the more reason for thoughtful dialogue and debate.
I can pretty much guarantee you the majority of people advocating for ed. funding reform are doing so because of what it will provide for students across the state … improved facilities, updated resources, adequate staffing. This is not a push for increased teacher salaries (although that’s a dialogue and debate that could be beneficial as well).
The problem is, too many have failed to settle on a common issue of debate. One side is asking for equitable and adequate funding … and all the other side hears is “we want more money in our pockets” … we won’t get anywhere until we get to the heart of the issue.
And until someone can tell me why it’s acceptable that one student, because of where they live, gets $20,000+ spent on them, while another student get’s significantly less than $5000 spent on them.
Comment by YNM Wednesday, Nov 15, 06 @ 8:02 am