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Should Illinois dump electronic, ATM-style voting and revert back to a paper ballot, perhaps an optical scan system instead?
Explain.
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 9:54 am
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Having spent my career in computer and telecom technology I would much, much prefer the punch card style ballot. It worked well (except the contrived “hanging chad” fiasco in Florida) for all the past elections. Certainly it takes a bit more time, but is more difficult to hack, far less prone to electronic problems, far less difficult to use, and has been exceptionally dependable. Of course the news media must wait a bit longer to see who the real winner is. In my humble opinion this is a case where simple is better. Optical scan would be fine if, and its a big IF, the mark can be simplified. Punch cards ……simple, reliable, effective, trusted.
Comment by Justice Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:12 am
Punch cards- absolutely not! We use an optical scan system and it is quick, easy and not at all confusing.
Comment by dk Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:14 am
Several counties use optical scan.
Comment by Aaron Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:15 am
I’m not so sure it really matters in Illinois, but… I trust the internet for my banking, stock trading, credit card transactions, and shopping… why in the world can’t it be used for something as insignificant as voting?
Comment by C$ Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:17 am
“CS,” the problem is you can verify with your bank, credit card co., broker, etc. that the transaction was processed the way you intended. In Spfld, the hard copy receipt was illegible computer code. You had to trust that the computer handled your vote properly. That bothers me a lot.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:23 am
Punch cards! They are cheap, easy to verify, and, the VOTER, can if he so wishes, check to make sure he has no “chad” problem. He can also put it in the box himself. Hard to “hack”.
Typical overreaction to a non - problem.
They should also have SEPARATE language ballots. Multiple on the same ballot is annoying as hell. No reason at all not to have them be separate.
Comment by Pat Collins Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:29 am
Rich - the whole election process is based on trust. Do you really trust what we have now? Is computer voting really much less secure than what we have now?
How can I be assured in the present system that my vote was counted and not ‘lost’ via incompetence or treachery?
Comment by Leroy Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:34 am
Give me the old mechanical lever booths — no hanging chads, no confusing butterfly ballots, no hackable software. Best system I have ever used.
Comment by Boone Logan Square Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:38 am
No. It’s easy and quick. As soon as folks get used to it things will be fine. For those of us old enough, how long did it take people to get used to punch cards…particularly the correct way to insert them into the machines! Calm down everyone. The focus should be to have an accurate way to tally votes. Nothing else really matters.
Comment by Common Sense in Illinois Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:42 am
Not punch cards again. We had a huge number of invalid ballots under the punch card system. The poorer the ward, the higher the number of spoiled ballots due to the fact that they got the worst gear. Plus, remember, a punch card is only so big. Fitting all those judges on it is a pain. And I definitely don’t want the judicial ballot to be separate.
Where I voted in Cook, there was a thermal paper that printed out with my final choices on it at the end of voting that was retained by the machine. If the Cook County clerk would simply count those and compare it to the machine count, we could all get a good feel for the honesty of the vote count.
I loved using the touch screen. It was so easy to do the judges. I only had 6 I wanted removed, so I could really move through them much faster.
Comment by cermak_rd Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:50 am
I used scantrons for years to take tests in school. They are easy. Look for name, fill in box next to name. piece of cake.
The optical scan form that was used in Chicago was somewhat confusing. There was an arrow pointing at a candidates name with a big blank area in the middle of the arrow, no borders on the area. Kind of like this
Comment by jerry Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 11:03 am
I have no idea why people like the punch card–it has a higher rate of error than any other technology currently used in voting including paper ballots counted by hand.
===Optical scan would be fine if, and its a big IF, the mark can be simplified. Punch cards ……simple, reliable, effective, trusted.
What? How does it need to be simplified? It has half the residual vote rate of punch cards:
http://www.umsl.edu/~kimballd/rtables.pdf
They are not simple, they are not reliable, they are not effective and they should not be trusted. Optical scan with the precinct level check for mistakes and the more modern touch screens are the the most reliable and easy for voters to use. This continuing misinformation that 40 year old technology was perfect is bizarre:
http://www.umsl.edu/~kimballd/rtables.pdf
http://www.umsl.edu/~kimballd/dk_vote.htm
David is a friend of mine and he and others have done excellent work in this field.
The goal of any system should be to reduce the number of votes that are not recorded properly. Hands down optical scan with precinct level checks and recent touch screens do the best job as long as the ballot is well designed. Why anyone would want to double the error rate by returning to 40 year old technology that doesn’t work is beyond me.
Comment by ArchPundit Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 11:14 am
I would hate to see the process returned to the old punchcard system after millions upon millions of dollars have been spent on this new system. I do not work for DIEBOLD or these other companies, but shouldn’t they be held accountable for many of these errors. Isn’t there some sort of refund due and owing to the county election authorities. This money could be used to upgrade the level of training of election judges on the use of machines.
Voting is never perfect nor are democracies, but both are processes worth keeping and should be improved as much as possible.
JFE has just stepped off his soapbox.
Comment by Jake from Elwood Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 11:23 am
I would like something other than the current system. I want a stub. Why? My local tavern gives the first drink to anyone who produces a ballot stub. This year with the electronic system all I got was a sticker and the barkeep did not like those. Oh well.
Comment by Whizbang Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 11:33 am
There is no need to go back to the old stuff. There is no need to worry about hackers if the PCs aren’t connected to the internet the entire day the election is going on. The PCs I believe are hooked up to transmit data at the end of the day and that’s it.
Comment by Crimefighter Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 11:33 am
Optical scan is the way to go with a 2ndary system for those without intact eyeballs (maybe a purple-ink finger?). Certainly doesn’t discriminate against anyone, couldn’t be faked easily and non-citizens or those ineligible to vote could be screened out.
Comment by North of I-80 Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 11:34 am
Rich:
Given the results of the election, it seems like we could just suspend the need for elections for a while — perhaps a decade or so.
Any vacancy could be filled by President Jones and Speaker Madigan. Think of the savings.
All those silly machines could be sold back to Venezuala. Wonder if a law is need or just joint resolution.
P.S. Suggested QOTD which state GOP is more screwed the IL. Looks like NY is running close.
Comment by Reddbyrd Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 11:48 am
The optical scan ballot would allow for quick vote tallying and a paper receipt for a recount. The ballot I used was a ‘fill in the circle’ type, not the ‘connect the dots’ version that I heard about in Chicago.
Comment by cartman Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 11:56 am
Notwithstanding the technology glitches that affected the Cook County reporting of results in this last election. I think the optical scan and touch screen are better that the punch card system. It’s much easier to personally check and verify that your vote was recorded the way you intended than examining a punch card.
However, I believe there should be a paper trail for every vote cast. It’s the only way to resolve situtations like the Congressional race in Florida where 18,000 no votes allegedly occurred in a jurisdiction that favored a Democratic candidate, and the Republican prevailed by a narrow margin due to these alleged no-votes. A paper trail would effectively resolve this issue one way or another. I believe that this concern for accuracy should be bipartisan. Similar problems will affect both Democrat and Republican candidates negatively in the future absent a paper trail.
Comment by Captain America Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 12:12 pm
“The PCs I believe are hooked up to transmit data at the end of the day and that’s it.”
Oh, well then, that solves all the problems about possible hacker interference.
Comment by ZC Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 12:13 pm
Reddbyrd-
They are doing a lot better, actually. In NY, Pataki just finished three terms as Governor, and the Mayor of New York City is a Republican (at least for now).
The bigger differences are (1) in NY their Democrats are actually liberals, not the quasi-Republicans around here; and (2) in NY the conservatives went and formed their own party in the 1960s, thereby enting the internecine warfare. Moderate-conservative is a straightforward negotiation, not a fight for the “soul of the party”.
Comment by Bubs Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 12:55 pm
As long as they print a hardcopy tape that can be used to verify in recounts, keep the new machines. I used one that printed my choices in English as well as in bar code-ese.
Deibold I do not trust, considering the news items about their political leanings as well as the technical flaws in their systems.
But the machines in general are okay if they come with the paper trail.
Comment by Gregor Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 1:22 pm
Bub:
Apparently the Wall Street Journal does think there are some NY GOP problems…
“ALBANY, N.Y. — The recent midterm election was bad news for Republicans, but it was even worse for New York Republicans. The GOP lost all three statewide offices by wide margins; its gubernatorial candidate did not even break 30%. Its sacrificial lamb for Senate did only slightly better, and representation in the state’s 29-seat congressional delegation fell from nine to six seats. The most prominent state Republican is New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a former Democrat who, shall we say, wears his party affiliation lightly.”…Pataki is out bound
Comment by Reddbyrd Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 1:37 pm
My county was one of the last two statewide to end the use of paper ballots and made the switch to punch cards. The papre ballots at primary time were very long. I liked voting that method better than the punch cards because I liked the all-night vote counting. We use the optical scan now and I like it. As long as a paper trail exists, I think most voters will acceept it.
Comment by Southern Ilinois Democrat Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 2:10 pm
I like the idea of marking the ballot and it being read by an optical device. I wonder if they do that in the precincts like they did for absentee ballots.
Comment by Levois Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 2:12 pm
These are great, no need to go back to a corrupt system unless corruption is what you seek.
Comment by The Conservative Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 2:19 pm
Only if we want honest elections.
Comment by Cal Skinner Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 2:35 pm
First, the electronic vote must be auditable, which will require a paper trail. Second, the screen must show without rollover all candidates for a specific office.
Third, there must be an actual custody sysem for the CPU — contractors were caught making unauthorized repairs.
This election in various jurisdictions in Florida and Ohio, there was tremendous undercounts in various races.
Comment by Truthful James Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 3:24 pm
Redd-
Geez, they lose one election in a nationwide Dem. landslide and you are giving them the last rites. Stay out of medicine.
Unlike the Illinois GOP, the NYGOP (1) has made the effort to build and maintain an effective party apparatus in their major city; (2) does not allow purported “Republicans” to engage in idiotic kamikazi attacks to sink their own gubenatorial candidate “for the good of the party”; and (3) is on the attack on corruption and overspending in state government, not wasting time arguing over abortion, or who “deserves” to run the party.
I just think there is a lesson there, seeing how they have consecutive victories for Governor and NYC Mayor in a “blue” state, and the Illinois GOP (and I mean the party as a whole, not just the current officeholders) has zilch.
Comment by Bubs Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 3:40 pm
Pataki’s gone and the Mayor is about as Republican as Jim Thompson…I was just trying to make IL GOPs feel a little better. Go ahead and pound them so more.
Comment by Reddbyrd Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 4:16 pm
Punch cards…….definitely punch cards. Easy, hard copy, verifiable, accurate, trusted. Yep, old technology, like getting a drink of cool water from a spring. It just feels good!!
Comment by Justice Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 4:19 pm
I live in Winnebago County (where Rockford is located). We’ve had optical scan machines for several years. This year, my precinct had an “ATM” style machine to try out, I preferred not to. I think the optical scan machines have worked fine, keep them till they wear out!!
Comment by flakyfoot Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 5:17 pm
Redd, I’m inclined to agree with you about the moribund state of the NY GOP, but a couple more doofuses like “Big Al” Hevesi, NY State Comptroller who combines the investment approach of Tony Rezko (the list of clouted-in NY money managers is longer than one’s arm) with the ethics of Uncle George (just repaid the State nearly $100k for state-paid chauffeurs for his wife) and the R’s may have a shot. His running mate Eliot Ness Spitzer cut him loose before the election and is rumored to be seeking his resignation due to “Limogate.”
To the QOTD, keep what we’ve got. The machines are as good as the judges and the upstream tabulating processes.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 5:57 pm
Anyone who thinks that we should stick with the ATM voting or even optiscan should look into the fiasco that took place in DuPage County — many of the datacards that recorded the ballots cast on election day were not returned to the election commission on the night of the election.
Some data cards were not even turned in by the following day. And some electronic ballots cast on election day were not added to the totals until Friday.
Paper is the way to go.
Comment by So-Called "Austin Mayor" Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 6:38 pm
===Anyone who thinks that we should stick with the ATM voting or even optiscan should look into the fiasco that took place in DuPage County
I’m lost AM as to what you want, optiscan is paper. In fact, it’s pretty similar to how punch cards work, but without the problem of having to make sure the hole is fully punched and with voters actually able to see the actual ballot and tell how they voted.
IOW, it’s more accurate and has fewer residual votes. The best part is that the scanner on site tells you if you under or over vote.
The problem of not securing the material after a vote isn’t a new problem so I’m not sure how any other system other than a networked system would improve on that.
Comment by ArchPundit Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 7:28 pm
I liked the electronic voting machine that I used. This was the first time for me, it was easy and quick - the wave of the future.
Comment by bbishere2 Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:20 pm
Yes, punch care is better.
Comment by Rich Guiney Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:23 pm
The Feds, Department of Treasury should look into how the contract was awarded and who the lobbyist was.
Comment by Inspector Gadget Monday, Dec 4, 06 @ 10:50 pm
We need electronic voting with a paper receipt handed to the voter.
For the stability of the world economy, we need to know the results of the election THE NIGHT OF the election. You can’t do that without computers. Punch cards brought us Florida 2000 - that’s awful bad track record for a supposedly tried and true method.
‘Because that’s the way I’ve always done it.’ is the worst kind of conservatism.
And, without computers we can’t move on to the next step - weighted voting. Every one gets five votes to distribute as they see fit, ie for governor you could pick 2 for Blago, 2 for Topinka, 1 for Whitney. It’s a much better method for discerning public support for a candidates’ policies.
Comment by OAD Tuesday, Dec 5, 06 @ 1:01 am
Seems to me that a paper trail of some sort is absolutely essential…optical scan is the way to go.
Comment by paper boy Tuesday, Dec 5, 06 @ 7:33 am
Punch cards will not come back (the technology is simply obsolete), optical scan is superior technology, and familiar to anyone who went to school since about 1960. Due to handicapped accessability requirements, at least one DRE (electronic/ATM/touch screen) device will be required in each precinct.
Giving the voters a paper receipt is useless. Few will hold on to them and any attempt to make use of them would void teh right to a secret ballot.
Comment by m Tuesday, Dec 5, 06 @ 10:05 am
what is Florida using this year? I hear that they have 14,000 votes that were cast but are missing in the totals from last month’s election.
Whatever they have, I don’t want.
Comment by capitol view Tuesday, Dec 5, 06 @ 4:52 pm