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* Tribune…
Donald Trump on Thursday said Chicago needs to employ controversial “stop-and-frisk” police practices to stem violence, continuing his critique of policing here a month after saying the city’s crime problem could be stopped in a week if police were “very much tougher.”
“Chicago is out of control, and I was really referring to Chicago with stop-and-frisk,” the Republican presidential nominee told the television show “Fox & Friends,” responding to criticism for earlier appearing to suggest the tactic should be used nationwide. “They asked me about Chicago, and I was talking about stop-and-frisk for Chicago.” […]
“We did it in New York, it worked incredibly well,” he said in the interview.
* Data doesn’t support the NYC claim…
In New York, the practice of stop-and-frisk is usually associated with Raymond Kelly’s second stint as New York’s police commissioner, which began in 2002. The number of stops recorded by New York police increased from 97,000 to 161,000 that year, and then nearly doubled the following year, according to police data obtained by the New York Civil Liberties Union.
At that time, New York City’s crime rate of violent crime was already in decline. In 1990, there were nearly 31 homicides in the city for every 100,000 people — more than the average for other major American cities even in a year of frequent violence across the country. A decade later, that figure had declined by nearly 75 percent, to 8.4 homicides per 100,000 people. […]
As New York police abruptly moved away from the practice of stop-and-frisk toward the end of Kelly’s tenure in 2013, the rate of homicide continued to decline as it had previously.
* AP…
(T)he New York billionaire falsely suggested that Chicago is more violent than Afghanistan
Afghanistan? Chicago is not even as violent as Indiana. Why do I point to the Hoosiers? Well, Trump’s running mate is that state’s governor.
* From earlier this year…
Indiana has the highest rate of black homicide victims in the country, according to a study conducted by the national nonprofit Violence Policy Center.
The study uses FBI homicide data to rank states according to their black homicide victimization rates. According to the study, there were 213 black homicide victims in Indiana in 2013, or 34.15 victims per 100,000 people. […]
The states with the second and third highest rates were Missouri and Michigan, respectively. […]
In Indianapolis, the majority of homicide victims over the past several years have been black. The city also has struggled with a rising homicide rate since 2013. Last year, there were 144 such killings in the city, the most in its history.
* And just last month, an Indiana appeals court ruled that stopping people to check for guns is illegal…
As a result of the Court of Appeals’ decision in Pinner, law enforcement agencies would also be wise to conform their training protocols to advise officers to refrain from detaining people merely to confirm that their possession of a firearm is legal – absent “reasonable suspicion” of some other criminal activity. Otherwise, any such stop would violate the Fourth Amendment rights of the person detained.
* Milwaukee’s stop and frisk policy hasn’t knocked it out of the top ten most dangerous cities (Chicago isn’t on that list, by the way, but St. Louis, Cleveland, Birmingham, Memphis and Indianapolis are). In fact it’s getting worse…
Milwaukee police recorded 24 homicides in the month of August — and officials say that is the highest monthly total since the July 1991 discovery in Jeffrey Dahmer’s apartment.
Sheesh.
The stop and frisk policy has also outraged civil rights groups.
* None of this should be seen as excusing Chicago’s violence. I’ve been a strong proponent of numerous actions, including tougher sentencing laws and treating it as a public health crisis. Adding more cops will help, too, as will improving the city’s climate for small and mid-sized neighborhood businesses and factories, as well as boosting education.
But a little context is in order here. Gov. Pence’s state is worse. And his own capital city is apparently more dangerous than Chicago.
posted by Rich Miller
Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:16 am
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I hope the moderator at the debate asks Trump a very simple, straightforward question about this policy: What is required to initiate a Terry stop?
I’d be shocked if he knew that the officer must “have a reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot.” If he knew that much, I’d hope he is asked to enlighten us as to what constitutes a reasonable suspicion, as compared to probable cause.
Comment by AlfondoGonz Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:20 am
Chicago gets highlighted by the media because of the size of the city and the aggregate number of shooting and homicides, but many other U.S. cities, per capita, have much more violence than Chicago.
Comment by Just Observing Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:23 am
I’m shocked, shocked, that Trump would say something without checking the facts. That he would pander to the fearful. That he would suggest anything remotely unconstitutional. It’s so unlike him.
Comment by Sir Reel Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:23 am
I don’t agree with stop and frisk, but check the real stats during that time. It worked. Crime was down overall, and rebounded almost immediately after the practice stopped. All crime, not just “violent” crime.
Comment by allknowingmasterofracoondom Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:28 am
Great stuff, Rich. But too bad none of it will ever reach the media airwaves or papers. It is too easy to just keep saying that Chicago is the most dangerous city in America.
Comment by Big Joe Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:30 am
What does the NRA say about this…looks like a gun grab to me or does the second amendement only apply to white people?
Comment by illinois manufacturer Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:37 am
“(Trump) falsely suggested that Chicago is more violent than Afghanistan.”
It only gets like that when he shows up. /snark
Comment by James Knell Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:47 am
==Chicago gets highlighted by the media because of the size of the city and the aggregate number of shooting and homicides, but many other U.S. cities, per capita, have much more violence than Chicago.==
…true, true, and when right-wing outlets show interest in Chicago violence, I’m sure it has NOTHING to do with it being the hometown of our nation’s first African-American POTUS
Comment by Jimmy CrackCorn Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:47 am
“I hope the moderator at the debate asks Trump a very simple, straightforward question about this policy: What is required to initiate a Terry stop?
I’d be shocked if he knew that the officer must “have a reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot.” If he knew that much, I’d hope he is asked to enlighten us as to what constitutes a reasonable suspicion, as compared to probable cause.”
Comment by Leave a Light on George Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:55 am
The basic principle of stop-and-frisk is that the ends justify the means. It overturns the basic common law presumption of innocent until proven guilty.
Illinois has stop-and-frisk within the concealed carry law. It’s called Duty to Inform, Brandon Phelps and Todd Vandermyde put it in his concealed carry bill. If Trump wins the election, he’ll know who to work with to put stop-and-frisk for police into the law books: Phelps and the NRA.
Comment by Anonymous Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:56 am
Posted to quick.
Reference the above. It’s a true statement and reasonable suspicion is a low bar to meet compared to probable cause.
Comment by Leave a Light on George Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 10:57 am
There is no stop and frisk within the carry law. A CCL only has to inform the officer when asked.
Within the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals they have started coming down on the same side as the Indiana Appellate Court where the mere presence of a firearm is not grounds for a stop or detention absent other issues.
Comment by Todd Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:07 am
I’m confused. I thought conservatives didn’t like stop and frisk. For years I’ve heard them complaining about the IRS “Stopping and frisking” Tea Party type groups to insure they weren’t trying to scam the 501C rules. Now they like the tactic ? There must be some subtle difference going on that escapes me…
Comment by Anotherretiree Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:10 am
It sounds as if those who legally carry concealed might have reservations about stop and frisk.
Comment by anon Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:27 am
The only people that should worry about “stop and frisk” are people that have something to hide.
I get frisked by the TSA about 50% of the time, it seems. Good thing the ACLU put away their false righteousness on this one.
Don’t like being frisked?
Don’t fly and don’t go into neighborhoods where that policy is in force.
Comment by cdog Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:28 am
===I’m confused. I thought conservatives didn’t like stop and frisk===
Something occurred to me last night…
Tea Party: The government sucks! (Loud cheers from the right.)
BLM: The government sucks! (Loud boos from the right.)
Also, reverse it. Works just as well.
Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:29 am
===The only people that should worry about “stop and frisk” are people that have something to hide.===
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Comment by 47th Ward Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:32 am
Actually the law now contains forcible gun seizure in addition to the Duty to Inform, if it wasn’t already dangerous enough for citizens.
“Upon the request of the officer, the licensee or
non-resident shall also identify the location of the concealed firearm and permit the officer to safely secure the firearm for the duration of the investigative stop. During a traffic stop, any passenger within the vehicle who is a licensee or a non-resident carrying under subsection (e) of Section 40 of this Act must comply with the requirements of this subsection (h).”
From SB836, which the ISRA touted as an “improvement” to Phelps concealed carry bill. That’s why they snuck in though on the last Sunday in May, 2015. Phelps got the gun seizure language from the IL State Police so they would let them sell guns at the Sparta World Shooting Complex. Hope it was worth it. Stop-and-frisk by Chicago police are not a big concern in southern Illinois.
Comment by Anonymous Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:35 am
From the Tribune article:
“If (police) see a person possibly with a gun or they think may have a gun, they will see the person and they’ll look and they’ll take the gun away,” [Trump] said.
Waaaait a minute! Isn’t that just what Republicans, for eight years, have been saying Obama would do? It’s suddenly ok when the GOP nominee actually says that’s what he wants to do?
Comment by Nick Name Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:39 am
47th,
Do you think stop and frisk in neighborhoods with rampant illegal gun violence is unreasonable? If so, you also must think that TSA searches are unreasonable.
I wonder what the normal family people in these plagued neighborhoods think of stop and frisk? Hopefully they would welcome the change in the culture of their streets. Hopefully they would appreciate the police officer’s efforts, and sacrifice of personal safety, to catch the criminal before the violence happens.
There are so many reasonable exceptions to the Fourth Amendment that keep us safe.
Liberty vs Security. A very BIG subject in this age.
Comment by cdog Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:48 am
Wait a minute — just last month Trump told the world that a “top Chicago cop” told him he could end the violence “in a week” with new “tough” tactics.
What were those new tactics?
Trump: “No, I didn’t ask him. Because I’m not the mayor of Chicago.”
Not a very curious fellow.
The CPD, by the way, said Trump lied about “the meeting.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/08/23/donald-trump-says-chicago-police-could-stop-surging-violence-by-being-much-tougher/?utm_term=.3f41aa4e6bbb
Comment by wordslinger Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:49 am
Painfully ignorant comment.
Comment by cdog Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:51 am
Rich and cdog, my apologies. The cdog at 11:51 is me, I meant to direct that comment at cdog, not post as him. Sorry, both of you.
Comment by AlfondoGonz Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:52 am
Just curious — does anyone really think that Chicago police can’t come up a with a reason to stop and frisk anyone they want to already?
Perhaps some black male readers could enlighten us on their experiences.
Comment by wordslinger Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:53 am
===Do you think stop and frisk in neighborhoods with rampant illegal gun violence is unreasonable? If so, you also must think that TSA searches are unreasonable.===
Nice logic there, cdog. There’s quite a difference between boarding a flight and walking down your block to the corner store, don’t you think?
Comment by 47th Ward Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 11:56 am
Well, Anon, it looks like the old cooks have come back out, but just won’t use their real names.
Under current law and case law, an officer has always had the ability to remove a weapon for “officer safety”. it didn’t matter if it was in the law or not. They could order you out of the car and remove the firearm. keep it for the duration of the stop and then return it as they sent you on your marry way.
Forcible gun seizure? No. a true seizure would be them taking your firearm and not returning it.
But you guys keep trying to spin this thing as the doomsday of RTC
Comment by Todd Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 12:00 pm
I’m not sure Rich’s point was to use an article that only quoted figures for homicides for one race and was based on 2012 data…. but that’s what he did.
Here’s 2014 from the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide.htm
Illinois homicide rate, 6.2/100,000 with 792 total.
Indiana homicide rate, 5.7/100,000 with 364 total.
The data would seem to say Illinois has twice the murders as Indiana.
Comment by m Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 12:01 pm
===As New York police abruptly moved away from the practice of stop-and-frisk toward the end of Kelly’s tenure in 2013, the rate of homicide continued to decline as it had previously.===
I’m in NY as we speak. Been to a couple neighborhoods that I would not have dreamed of stepping foot in 30 years ago. Everything is so much more expensive now especially the real estate. The economy has pushed out or maybe just helped out those that lived there into a more desirable economic level. I think that has more to do with the decline in violence.
Comment by Been There Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 12:05 pm
does no one look at history? adding tougher police practicrs and more enfrocers typically escalates violence. it drives nonviolent people in the area to percive they are under attack and join in against the occupation.
to decrease violence tou need some teasonable policing; but you need to provide social reaources to direct kids away from gangs. prpvode work for the unemployed, health care and recreational activities.
Comment by Ghost Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 12:21 pm
“The economy has pushed out or maybe just helped out those that lived there into a more desirable economic level. I think that has more to do with the decline in violence.”
This also appears to be the case in Chicago, as some bad neighborhoods of the past have been gentrified, particularly on the north and near-north sides.
When we were youths, my friends and I used to be routinely stopped and frisked. We occasionally had mild contraband and/or beer on us and almost never got arrested. I never got arrested in Chicago due to one of these experiences.
The cops either took the stuff from us, made us pour it down the sewer or even let us keep it. I don’t believe that would have been the case if we were minorities. That’s one big reason I don’t support stop and frisk, because of incarceration/jail rates and discrimination.
Comment by Grandson of Man Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 12:43 pm
For a post that seems to be about attacking lack of honesty or hyperbole, the comments sure are amusing. And it isn’t “the government” that BLM hates! How…amusing.
Comment by Beeker Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 12:53 pm
===it isn’t “the government” that BLM hates!===
The cops don’t work for the government? The people who run cop shops and set cop policies don’t work for the government? The people who enact criminal laws aren’t part of the government? Cops aren’t the legally armed enforcers of that government policy?
How amusing.
Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 12:57 pm
Rich, you know better.
Comment by Beeker Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 1:04 pm
No, I don’t, Beeker. Please enlighten me. What are you so afraid to say?
Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 1:07 pm
Oh, I get it now. I was honestly trying to figure out why the Bureau of Land Management hated the government!
Comment by G'Kar Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 1:28 pm
Indianapolis, in addition to a high crime rate, also has one of the nations highest poverty rates among big cities. And Indianapolis has had mostly Republican mayors over the last 50 years. Since Trump has argued big city problems can be blamed on Democratic mayoral administrations, Indianapolis should probably be the subject of many questions in the up coming debates.
Comment by TR Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 2:02 pm
I can’t wait to read the upcoming endorsement of the Donald by the Chicago Trib. Get the popcorn!
Comment by Jimmy Olson Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 2:12 pm
@Jimmy Olson
I’m betting they endorse Gary Johnson.
Comment by TR Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 2:15 pm
Stop and frisk while protecting your second amendment rights…. HA HA! Not tooooo blatant about his racism.
Comment by gdubya Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 3:45 pm
The VPC is an avid anti-gun organization supported by an avid anti-gun foundation. A search of the web shows many challenges to their findings. It is like citing an NRA study to prove a point.
Comment by Big Mouth Friday, Sep 23, 16 @ 4:00 pm