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Trump on Chicago violence

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* Donald Trump last night…

We have a situation where we have our inner cities, African-American, Hispanics, are living in hell because it’s so dangerous. You walk down the street, you get shot. In Chicago, they’ve had thousands of shootings, thousands, since January first. Thousands of shootings. And I’m saying where is this? Is this war-torn country? What are we doing? And we had to stop the violence. We have to bring back law in order.

In a place like Chicago, where thousands of people have been killed, thousands over the last number of years, in fact almost four thousand having killed since Barack Obama became president. Over four, almost four thousand people in Chicago have been killed. We have to bring back law and order. Now, whether or not in a place like Chicago, you do stop and frisk which worked very well Mayor Giuliani is here worked very well in New York. […]

No, the argument is that we had to take the guns away from these people that have them and that are bad people that shouldn’t have them. These are felons and these are people that are bad people that shouldn’t be…when you have three thousand shootings in Chicago from January 1st, when you have four thousand people killed in Chicago by guns from the beginning of the presidency of Barack Obama, his hometown, you have to have stop and frisk.

You need more police. You need a better community, you know relation, you don’t have a good community relations in Chicago. It’s terrible. I have property there. It’s terrible what’s going on in Chicago. But when you look — and Chicago’s not the only one. You go to Ferguson, you go to so many different places. You need better relationships, I agree with Secretary Clinton on this, you need better relationships between communities in the police because in some cases it’s not good but you look at Dallas where the relationships were really studied the relationships were really a beautiful thing. And then five police officers were killed. One night very violently. So there’s some bad things going on, some really bad things.

The claims about stop and frisk’s impact on NYC’s crime rate have been thoroughly debunked.

Other than that, your thoughts?

* Related…

* Trump injects Chicago crime into debate: ‘A war-torn country?’

* U.S. Attorney: A few bad cops make it harder for good officers

posted by Rich Miller
Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 10:47 am

Comments

I wouldn’t be surprised the only thing he owns here is that sign that ruins an otherwise fairly nice addition to the skyline here.

Comment by Cheryl44 Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 10:53 am
he speaks like the dialogue from a Tommy Wiseau film.

Comment by Homer J. Quinn Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 10:55 am
That debate was a PR disaster for Chicago. I winced at times. The huge international audience watching, didn’t help.

Thanks, Trump.

Comment by ZC Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 10:57 am
Trump shows that he is worried for black and Hispanic citizens living in crime riddled neighborhoods. He doesn’t have a solution but he knows that a president from Chicago couldn’t stop the shootings in Chicago.

Trump forces a listener to listen. It’s oratory madness. He doesn’t speak like a politician. He is a powerful rich man speaking like a guy in a bar.

The debate was painful to watch. I can’t imagine listening to either of them for four years. She is horrible and boring at the same time.

Holy crap.

Comment by VanillaMan Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:09 am
Trumperbole.

Comment by Seal Team 6 Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:09 am
I live in the Austin neighborhood, not horrible but not terribly nice either. It’s more complicated then he makes it out to be. For instance there never was a good relationship between the police and the black community over here, to pretend otherwise is fantasy. I would however like to see more investment in my neighborhood, can I get a decent grocery store that’s not over a mile or two away?

Comment by Hard working Art Student Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:16 am
So much of this is incoherent rambling, but if you can parse the first part of the last paragraph into something coherent, then he finally said something reasonable.

“You need more police. You need a better community, you know relation, you don’t have a good community relations in Chicago. It’s terrible. I have property there. It’s terrible what’s going on in Chicago. But when you look — and Chicago’s not the only one. You go to Ferguson, you go to so many different places. You need better relationships, I agree with Secretary Clinton on this, you need better relationships between communities in the police because in some cases it’s not good…”

I think he’s saying: “You need more police and you need better relations between the police and the community. In some places, like Chicago and Ferguson, the relationship between the police and the community is not good.”

If that’s what he was saying, then he’s right. He might actually get this. And those bad relationships are at the heart of the problems in so many communities. Police don’t respect black people and black communities. Black people fear and hate the police, resulting in a lack of respect toward the police. It’s a downward spiral, and it’s been getting worse and worse for years.

Of course, he also contradicts himself in saying this. After all, he just advocated using ’stop and frisk’ and other aggressive policing tactics in Chicago and nationwide. These tactics, which are not effective at reducing crime, are effective at generating more ill will amongst black communities toward the police.

If you want to restore law and order in these communities, you need mutual respect. Witnesses don’t respect or talk to the Police when they hate and fear the police. Police don’t act respectfully when they assume everyone is a criminal out to gun them down.

Comment by jerry 101 Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:17 am
–No, the argument is that we had to take the guns away from these people that have them and that are bad people that shouldn’t have them. –

Look out, Todd, here comes the gun-grabber.

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:18 am
I am pro “stop and frisk” in high crime areas.

The fact that high crime areas are predominately minority communities should not be a reason to not use stop and frisk.

From the link which tries to debunk the policies success, “An analysis by the NYCLU revealed that innocent New Yorkers have been subjected to police stops and street interrogations more than 5 million times since 2002, and that black and Latino communities continue to be the overwhelming target of these tactics. Nearly nine out of 10 stopped-and-frisked New Yorkers have been completely innocent.”

So 10% of 5 million were not innocent.

The fact that 500,000 non-innocent characters were dealt with did not have anything to do with the dramatic decrease in murders and shootings in New York, during this period. /s

Innocent and law-abiding people, who have nothing to hide, and live in these “war-torn” zones, should be asked what they think of stop and frisk.

Comment by cdog Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:19 am
All those stats are fudged in order to prove a point trying to be made by whoever is speaking.

The Governor needs to stop telling us that the Joneses have what we don’t. He’s the governor of this state. I prefer governors who are proud of their state, not running it down.

I don’t care about Indiana. I live in Illinois. I don’t want to argue over fake figures.

I want better than Indiana. I want Illinois!

Comment by VanillaMan Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:21 am
“Stop and frisk” and “rebuilding trust with the police” cannot both happen at the same time. Which do you think is more important?

Comment by NoGifts Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:23 am
Chicago is on the news almost daily on every national network. It’s not good.

Comment by A guy Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:26 am
Trump/Emanuel 2020

Comment by crazybleedingheart Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:29 am
–I am pro “stop and frisk” in high crime areas.–

Do you truly believe police can’t come up with a reason to stop and frisk anyone they really want to? Why would you think that? Who would stop them from doing so?

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:40 am
Didn’t bother to fact check, but didn’t the moderator say that stop and frisk in NY was ruled unconstitutional (or Trump said something about the Mayor blah blah blah)?

Anyhow, probably one of the only points I’ll agree with Trump/Clinton is that we need better community relations, not only with the officers, but with each other in the city.

Let’s see how well the addition of officers to the CPD will work…

Comment by Clark Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:44 am
Chicago is a violent mess in far too many areas. Certainly not in areas where the rich live and those rich vote heavily Democratic.

New York appears to be getting more violent also but whether that is a continued trend remains to be seen.

Trying to belittle Trump in any way on this issue will not change facts.

Comment by Federalist Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:48 am
If criminals aren’t afraid of getting caught there’s no deterrent, beyond the other guy killing you first. There’s no co-operation from the community. There’s no pro-active policing. There’s less and less police. There’s not a peep from the elected’s (beyond Rahm & Trump (of all people)). Yet our U.S. Attorney blames who? Good luck.

Comment by Nail Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:51 am
“No, the argument is that we had to take the guns away from these people that have them and that are bad people that shouldn’t have them.”

I wonder how the NRA views this statement? Do they consider that Trump wants to start down the slippery slope to allow the government to confiscate some peoples guns?

Comment by Small town taxpayer Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 11:55 am
His use of “Chicago” as a dog whistle is right in line with what Kirk and Rauner do. And if they try to say they are making a distinction, it is clear that their alt-right friends do not.

Comment by Albany Park Patriot Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 12:02 pm
Word, imho, the fact that a person is in a high crime area should be enough probable cause.

I know people do not like my TSA argument, but the courts have allowed stop and frisk at airports to be proactive and protect all of us.

There are even more public venues where a search is part of the scene; think courthouses and stadiums.

Why would we not want to protect the innocent people living in these “war torn” high crime minority communities?

How many more murders would there have been if those 500,000 non-innocents had not been stopped and frisked?

Comment by cdog Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 12:02 pm
I am only hearing about changes in the front line policing. Who is making sure the rest of the system works, proper bail, defense attorneys, prosecutors, quick trials, probation and parole officers.

Do we believe that removing the most violent 5,000 people would have a major effect or is there a tremendous supply of wannabee criminals that will emerge? I think as long as there is a steady profit from drugs and other criminal behavior, there is a never ending supply of criminals.

Comment by Last Bull Moose Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 12:24 pm
–Word, imho, the fact that a person is in a high crime area should be enough probable cause.–

So living, working, passing through, merely existing in a “high-crime area” passes your Fourth Amendment test?

You’re aware that Chicago police already seize more illegal guns every year than any other department in the country? And that Chicago’s homicide rate is about middle of the pack for large American cities?

Your elimination of the Fourth Amendment due to geography would do what, exactly? Based on what?

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 12:28 pm
cdog

So if I buy a house in a neighborhood that goes to hades afterward i surrender my 4th amendment right? 1st my home value plumments then i get to be harassed by the police. Woo hoo. This isn’t choosing to fly or watching the Bears this is folks outside their homes, walking to the bus stop, walking their dog, etc.

Comment by Mason born Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 12:29 pm
I just read the Kass column on the debate. Apparently Trump did well.

“That said, it was a very good debate. On both sides. Yes. Both did well. Each made mistakes. And the next one will be much bloodier.”

Words fail me.

Comment by IrishPirate Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 12:33 pm
Violence leads and sells. While one must be thankful for the journalists and politicians
that have been relentless in their attempts
to push the problem to the forefront it is good
to remember that institutions change much slower
than human beings. Why did it take twenty five
years to build a trauma center on the South Side?
Maybe as much as fifty percent of the black population of the city of Chicago left for the
suburbs in the last fifteen years and what does
that mean for those who remain? Blame and fear
certainly won’t solve our problems and to find
that Chicago doesn’t even crack the top 10 in
murder rates is just no solace.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/

Comment by Illinoisvoter Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 12:40 pm
When people who haven’t spent time in Chicago complain about the crime I tell them that I have never felt unsafe in the downtown area, i.e., Loop, River North, Gold Coast, etc. Then the other day, a lowlife shoots and kills a man while he was exiting a Millenium Park concert. Oy. These things add up. My reality is my own. But, for outsiders, theirs is the perception that plays out in the daily papers and, more and more, in the national news. Last night a reported 100 million watched the presidential debate wherein Chicago crime took center stage. If that’s not a call to arms, what is?

Comment by Keyser Soze Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 12:42 pm
Rich, and, let me just say, the thoughts of Trump, these were very good thoughts and lots of very good people think them and they’re really quite very good. The thoughts that Trump thinks are, by the way, thoughts that many people, in places like, in Michigan, and many other places, I could keep naming places, but they think them. But these are thoughts that many people think and, in Chicago, in the black neighborhoods, where, if, where, you walk outside and you get shot, OK? You get shot. And Trump is just saying what, no one talks about this, OK? So, and let me just say, the thoughts are good thoughts and I’m glad somebody is finally saying them. /s

Comment by AlfondoGonz Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 12:48 pm
=Word, imho, the fact that a person is in a high crime area should be enough probable cause.=

You do understand that this was argued in federal court and ruled unconstitutional right? Are you arguing that the constitution should be malleable based on where you live?

Comment by pundent Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 1:02 pm
Sorry for the weak computer skills and the bad link.

www.chicagotribune.com/…/ct-black-exodus-chicago-20160318-stor

Comment by illinoisvoter Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 1:06 pm
–Maybe as much as fifty percent of the black population of the city of Chicago left for the
suburbs in the last fifteen years and what does
that mean for those who remain?–

The 2010 Census had the Chicago black population at 1,065,009.

The 2015 Census estimate had the Chicago black population at 895,059.

I make that a 16% decline.

You may noticed the absence of all those CHA towers that used to be. Those folks didn’t move into Trump Tower condos.

https://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-5.pdf

http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/LND110210/1714000

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 1:08 pm
Small town- “I wonder how the NRA views this statement? Do they consider that Trump wants to start down the slippery slope to allow the government to confiscate some peoples guns?”

Why would anyone think that the NRA cares about black people who live in high-crime areas like these Chicago neighborhoods with all the shootings? Brandon Phelps’ concealed carry bill
forbids licensed citizens to carry on CTA bus or trains, and they can be arrested for doing so, which puts them in danger of a confrontation with police. People in southern Illinois drive everywhere, they don’t care about Chicago.

Trump has fixation with stop-and-frisk. He must have used the term a dozen times during this debate alone. If he becomes President, the IL Black Caucus will need to keep a very close eye on the NRA and the Reps. they support.

Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 1:10 pm
===I wonder how the NRA views this statement?===

Forget about this statement. What about Trump’s support for denying gun rights to anyone on a no-fly list? That issue kept the NRA from supporting him until he caved. Guess that was just temporary.

Comment by Rich Miller Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 1:30 pm
The issue of ‘ stop and frisk was decided in the Terry v Ohio case by the US Supreme Court in the late 1960’s. It ruled stop and frisk based on ‘reasonable suspicion’ not probable cause was a valid police process. It has been used by police since that time. It appears the NYPD use of stop and frisk was done primarily in African American/Latino neighborhoods by written policy of the department. The NY Federal judge ruled the NYPD policy use primarily/only in AA/Latino neighborhoods violated the 14th Amendment protection against racial discrimination and the 4th Amendment protection against illegal searches. Therefore, it looks like Holt was wrong to say’ stop and frisk’ was ruled unconstitutional because in the late 60’s the USSC ruled it constitutional. NYPD policy concerning stop and frisk was ruled unconstitutional by a lower court Federal judge, thus I think, the confusion.

Comment by Slippin' Jimmy Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 1:34 pm
His verbal deficit is so painful to me. I can’t listen to anything he utters. As I read this, he is still a mess of contradiction and hyperbole.

Comment by cardsmama Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 1:46 pm
Thanks Wordslinger for the 2010 through 2015 data.
Only had the Trib’s 2000 through 2010 loss of
181,000 and seeing that the loss accelerated in
the next five years to 170,000 helps.

Comment by Illinoisvoter Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 1:50 pm
–Thanks Wordslinger for the 2010 through 2015 data.–

I mis-typed in my original post. My apologies. The census data I linked above is from 2000 and 2015.

The 2000 Census had the Chicago black population at 1,065,009.

The 2015 Census estimate had the Chicago black population at 895,059.

That’s a 169,950 decline, or 16%, over the 15 years from 2000 to 2015.

I’m curious as to where your estimate of a 50% decline came from.

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 2:09 pm
don’t worry, Alicia Machado is going to deal with Trump.

Comment by Amalia Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 2:12 pm
Except for 6 years, I’ve lived in the City since 1977 so I was also here in the 80’s when it was really bad. I was in my 20’s (in the 80’s) and I am white so never noticed a problem.

Most of Chicago is pretty safe. Are there issues with burglaries and robberies–def yes. A good job market would cure that pretty fast. The shootings that take place in a very limited area. Unlike an earlier poster who lives in Austin, I don’t live in a high crime rate area but am relatively close to Humboldt Park so I hear about the shootings on Facebook.

The police being hired will barely make a dent in replacing the officers that retired in 2016 and 2017. I expect 2017 to be a reply of 2016 in terms of shootings.

Rahm needs to start getting serious about this. He does not seem to take the shootings seriously. As long as he doesn’t, what is the President supposed to do? It doesn’t matter who is the Pres—it’s Rahm’s issue. Personally, I am frustrated by the lack on action to end the shootings.
The people from the high-rises are scattered every where and that may be part of the issue. Humboldt Park has been a stronghold of Latinos but many African Americans were shifted in that area over the past 10 yrs and until recently, things seemed to work okay. Perhaps, some of the shootings are the relocation process? It’s hard to say.

Comment by Belle Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 2:44 pm
I expect 2017 to be a reply of 2016 in terms of shootings. Sorry
Not reply, should be repeat

Comment by Belle Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 2:45 pm
I think Trump understated the number of Chicago murders by about 500 when he said that there had been 4.000 since 2008.

Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 3:05 pm
On “stop and frisk”, as others have stated, “Terry” is the law. Re NYC specifically, it is confusing chasing the rulings, appeals, judge removal, and reversal, but the lower court’s “unconstitutional” ruling was reversed … and, since the reversal pretty much conformed with “Terry” (and the case was also not pursued), the NYC case never reached a SCOTUS ruling.

Trump was actually closer to the truth (although with fractured language) than Hillary or the moderator.

Comment by RNUG Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 3:46 pm
== What about Trump’s support for denying gun rights to anyone on a no-fly list? ==

I believe Trump qualified his support by saying he also wanted to ensure the “no fly” list is accurate and that there was a procedure to appeal incorrect listing on it.

Comment by RNUG Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 3:52 pm
Your 2nd and 4th Amendment rights are only options if you choose to live in a high crime area. Because of the violence associated with social media insults, we will also restrict your 1st Amendment rights. Your 5th Amendment rights are in peril as well if the crime continues. No worries, it’s for your own good we do these things. /S

Comment by FormerParatrooper Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 3:57 pm
Keyser Soze I agree with you all of these killings are adding up and its not just people living in poorer parts of Chicago that are getting unnerved. As I have said before its getting to me in higher income Andersonville on the North Side.

The drunk frat boys in Wrigleyville seem happily oblivious to all of this, no doubt the invincibility of youth and a dozen beers helps.

Rich I agree with you about Trump’s split with the NRA on the no fly list gun ban. As an ISRA member I will say I never agreed with this position, we have enough problems with straight up gun type bans, clip size bans, on and on to worry about people who end up on this list.

But the NRA/ISRA reflects its base membership which totally accepts the complete slippery slope theory relating to gun legislation. I am not a Trump supporter, but it was a smart move on his part to create some space on that narrow issue.

By the way who exactly does Sec Clinton think she is picking up by harping on gun control that she doesn’t already have in her camp? Suburban Republican women, I doubt it, they are one of the largest growing areas of gun ownership in America. More women than ever are buying guns and using them regularly, according the data I have seen of women gun owners suburban women comprise 39.1 percent of them.

Comment by Rod Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 3:58 pm
—No, the argument is that we had to take the guns away from these people that have them and that are bad people that shouldn’t have them. —

This is what you get when you copy and paste out of context from NPR.

The actual words were:

***
HOLT: The argument is that it’s a form of racial profiling.

TRUMP: No, the argument is that we have to take the guns away from these people that have them and they are bad people that shouldn’t have them. These are felons.
***

Nobody, including the NRA would argue for felons having guns, so I’m not seeing the controvery here.

Regarding no-fly lists:

***
TRUMP: First of all, I agree, and a lot of people even within my own party want to give certain rights to people on watch lists and no- fly lists. I agree with you. When a person is on a watch list or a no-fly list, and I have the endorsement of the NRA, which I’m very proud of. These are very, very good people, and they’re protecting the Second Amendment.

But I think we have to look very strongly at no-fly lists and watch lists. And when people are on there, even if they shouldn’t be on there, we’ll help them, we’ll help them legally, we’ll help them get off. But I tend to agree with that quite strongly.
***

Trump supports banning people on no-fly lists as long as there is a path to get the people who don’t belong on those lists a path to get off the list.

Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 4:14 pm
Cdog

Oh yeah, violating even more people’s civil rights and gutting what’s left of the 4th amendment sounds like an awesome solution. /s

Comment by Hard working Art Student Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 4:16 pm
Trump is right. What is happening in a few Chicago neighborhoods is appalling.

Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 4:52 pm
Thank you to Slippin’ and RNUG for clarification on “Terry.”

“The issue of ‘stop and frisk’ was decided in the Terry v Ohio case by the US Supreme Court in the late 1960’s. It ruled stop and frisk based on ‘reasonable suspicion’ not probable cause was a valid police process. It has been used by police since that time. It appears the NYPD use of stop and frisk was done primarily in African American/Latino neighborhoods by written policy of the department.

This is a time for aggressive leadership — write some tight policies for reasonable suspicion, throw in a line about “ensuring domestic tranquility,” conform to guidance from other case law, and start stopping and frisking.

It would be good to have new case law which supports reasonable suspicion stop and frisk.

Only a criminal has anything about which to worry. The rest of us just benefit from a safer society.

Comment by cdog Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 5:10 pm
Can we put the number of seized guns in perspective, Chicago police have seized 5,000 guns. But out of how many? Estimates are about 1 gun per person in the US. That would be over a million guns in Chicago.

Comment by Last Bull Moose Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 6:32 pm
–I just read the Kass column on the debate. Apparently Trump did well.–

Funny, unbiased journalists at Kremlin-owned media said the same thing.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/09/27/trump-won-the-kremlins-focus-group-russia-clinton-united-states-twitter-putin/

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 6:48 pm
== Can we put the number of seized guns in perspective, Chicago police have seized 5,000 guns. But out of how many? Estimates are about 1 gun per person in the US. That would be over a million guns in Chicago. ==

It’s probably lower because, since about 1968/1970 until a couple of years ago, it was virtually impossible to legally buy / own a firearm in Chicago.

Comment by RNUG Tuesday, Sep 27, 16 @ 9:55 pm
Trump said in the debate “In Chicago, they’ve had thousands of shootings, thousands, since January first. Thousands of shootings.”
Here is the truth from the US Attorney in Chicago: “Chicago had 411 murders in 2014, 478 in 2015, and more than 500 so far this year, the New York Times reports in a story on FBI crime statistics.”

Comment by anon Wednesday, Sep 28, 16 @ 11:26 am
===Here is the truth===

He didn’t say murders, he said shootings. And he was correct.

Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Sep 28, 16 @ 11:35 am
Yes Rich you are correct even PBS last night which fact checked Trump and Clinton indicated his rounded number of shootings in Chicago was very close to correct. See http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/facts-behind-debate-talking-points-like-stop-frisk-trade-deals/

Comment by Rod Wednesday, Sep 28, 16 @ 12:15 pm