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* Remember how the Illinois Policy Institute’s Diana Rickert denied my claim that I’d been duped into appearing in the Institute’s “documentary” about Speaker Madigan?…
Illinois Policy’s Diana Rickert said in a response to Illinois Playbook: “Rich’s comments are strange. The film crew is top notch, and was very forthcoming about the scope of the documentary and our involvement when asked who was funding the project. We’ve been critical of Speaker Madigan and his political machine for many years, so we’re certainly not shy about our work on this issue. It’s not like Rich was stopped on the sidewalk in Springfield and caught off-guard with a random guy filming with his iPhone; the interview was scheduled in advance, he signed a release form and he even went out for drinks with the film crew after they were done. Our research was used as the premise of many questions. Some of the other interviews for our documentary were even filmed in our Chicago office.”
Rickert’s statement was refuted last month when the production company told Bernie that I had, indeed, been duped.
* And the film’s “executive producer” John Papola admitted it again yesterday after a special screening in Chicago…
Papola admitted he kept many of the subjects in the dark about Illinois Policy Institute’s involvement in the project. “I know there’s been some controversy in the local press … Because this was an independent project, because that was a condition of us coming on board, because we know Illinois Policy takes stances on issues, we treated this in much of the same way we handled our other projects … The partners or financiers of the film was really not something — that was kept close to the vest as far as myself and the head of production and the field team wasn’t really armed to talk about that.”
Except they did tell some people, like John Kass and Dick Simpson.
* The Institute was also far more involved with the content than Rickert initially admitted. The production company didn’t just use the Institute’s research, an Institute employee wrote the script…
Illinois Policy “gave us creative control over the project,” Papola said after the event. Then he explained that the film’s writer was Austin Berg, who works for the Policy Institute.
Creative content — After he was pressed, Papola said Berg: “was bringing lots of material to the table … Austin brought a wealth of knowledge to the table that would have been very difficult for us to produce from scratch.”
* So, they financed it and wrote it. And Mark Brown isn’t buying that Papola had total control…
So they hired John Papola, an “award-winning documentary filmmaker” from Texas who hails from the East Coast and probably couldn’t find Springfield without Google Maps. Papola then made a movie channeling the exact narrative that Rauner and the Illinois Policy Institute embrace. […]
Berg assured me after Tuesday’s screening at the Siskel Center that the movie was financed by the organization’s “thousands of contributors,” not any particular billionaire.
But Papola swears he took a journalistic approach and had final creative control. As far as adopting the Policy Institute’s point of view of Madigan, Papola said he didn’t see how anyone could hold any other opinion after reviewing the facts — that were spoonfed to him by the Policy Institute.
* And then there’s weird stuff like this…
Odd portrayal of Blago impeachment — seems to suggest it's due to Madigan, doesn't mention um, federal case against him.
— natasha korecki (@natashakorecki) October 11, 2016
For instance, the doc frames Blagojevich's impeachment as a product of a rivalry with Madigan. It barely mentions arrest for selling O seat
— David Thomas (@DaveThomas5150) October 11, 2016
The Blago arrest for trying to sell Obama Senate seat is a "blink-and-youll-miss-it" moment in the Madigan documentary #twill
— David Thomas (@DaveThomas5150) October 11, 2016
The film also doesn't even mention that Rob Blagojevich was charged the first time around #twill
— David Thomas (@DaveThomas5150) October 11, 2016
Did I mention that Rod’s brother Rob cooperated with the project and appears in the “documentary”?
* And this…
Papola said they didn't try to outweigh negatives of Madigan with positives to create a "faux balance." #twill
— David Thomas (@DaveThomas5150) October 11, 2016
The film mentions Rauner-Madigan fight over the budget, but doesn't mention gov's refusal to sign one without reforms he wants #twill
— David Thomas (@DaveThomas5150) October 11, 2016
Film brings up Dunkin vs. Stratton, mentions that it's because Dunkin didn't go along with vote override. But leaves it at that #twill
— David Thomas (@DaveThomas5150) October 11, 2016
* This parody preview, however, is priceless…
A little bit of naughty language at the end, so be careful at work, but it’s pretty darned funny…
From the same people who brought you fake newspapers, fake radio networks, and fake policy institutes comes the fake documentary Gov. Rauner (fake) says he didn’t pay for.
And then Sgt. Schultz makes an appearance. Whoever did that is brilliant.
*** UPDATE *** The parody video was removed after the Illinois Policy Institute objected to the creators using its name on the Vimeo page and in e-mails to publicize it. But the Institute said they had no problem with me posting it on YouTube, so here it is…
posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 10:49 am
Sorry, comments are closed at this time.
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Rich, I agree with all of your conclusions. If the project really was independent they shouldn’t have been afraid to mention that up front.
I would only add a footnote to your post though that the Articles of Impeachment barely mentioned the Senate Seat, but rather a long list of other disgusting behaviors.
Comment by Not It Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 10:56 am
The parody is complete genius, but the naughty language added little to nothing to the comedy, so that’s disappointing.
It was great without the cursing.
Is Austin Berg a WGA member?
Just asking.
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 10:59 am
I don’t get the lying from the IPI.
Comment by Precinct Captain Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:02 am
==”From the same people who brought you fake newspapers, fake radio networks, and fake policy institutes comes the fake documentary Gov. Rauner (fake) says he didn’t pay for.”==
If its fake news, it has Rauner’s prints all over it.
Comment by Mama's Time- out Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:02 am
To the Post,
The disingenuous way IPI has gone about this, and John Kass being complicit in adding, then apologizing, maybe for getting caught, or doing it, or… whatever… does not negate the premise of IPI and those willing to push their beliefs with IPI as an “honest look”… That a “look yourself in the mirror” moment for Kass.
IPI is being a shill, Kass was encouraging the phoniness.
Which is worse… is up for discussion.
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:04 am
Obviously no one googled the payola…
Comment by Liberty Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:08 am
Lol Papola not “the payola”
Comment by Liberty Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:10 am
I saw the film and I will tell you that I couldn’t have lost more respect for Steve Rauschenberger.
Comment by Ducky LaMoore Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:11 am
Papola not “the payola”
Comment by Liberty Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:11 am
So… Papola got paid…errr…played??? “Award winnin’” move by IPI! /s
As to the parody… the narrator sounds like John Oliver. Whoever did it…Execellent!
Comment by Anon221 Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:12 am
Yes. Where IS the IRS?
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:15 am
Papola had “total control” in his “jouralistic” endeavor, except for the script that his paymaster — IPI — provided him?
Want some fries with that Whopper?
Since Kass and Simpson were in on the grift, were they scripted as well? Did they take “direction” to make their comments “better?”
Were they paid?
I’m sure they wouldn’t mind answering a few “journalistic” questions as to their participation in such a “journalistic” project.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:18 am
Shorter John Papola: “I didn’t set up a straw-man! I was merely paid by the IPA to film the toppling of the IPA’s straw-man exactly as instructed by the IPA’s script. Totally legit!”
– MrJM
Comment by @MisterJayEm Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:18 am
What genius at IPI or in the governors office thought that this “documentary” would move the needle in Illinois? The only people who will go to see it are IPI members and Liberty Principle types. I don’t think they need persuading.
Comment by TominChicago Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:21 am
Tom, they have to take a break from frivolous lawsuits once in a while.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:23 am
I said it earlier this week: Breitbart is the model. Integrity checked at the door. Papola should be drummed out of the Doc fraternity. As for Kass, I mean, anyone who has read a couple columns understands what he is. He has never offered much more than red meat to the fearful. He’s no Royko, who did a bit of that himself from time to time.
Comment by Molly Maguire Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:25 am
Rich, still waiting for you to tell us what difference it would have made had you known. I presume you said nothing untrue. If you were quoted out of context, please explain.
Comment by Anon. Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:25 am
TinyDancer: Likely they’re cowering in terror over being perceived as picking on conservative groups again. In my opinion that incident was largely much ado about nothing, but the were so inept they had it coming anyway, and I have no sympathy for them given their handling (or lack thereof) of other politically-sensitive cases.
Comment by Threepwood Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:29 am
@Molly Maguire
Parody is freakin awesome! Breitbart isn’t the model for IPI. They get paid to promote Rauner’s talking points. The fake papers too. Breitbart caters to a conservative view and they have that right but IPI and Liberty Principles abuse tax and campaign finance law. Quite a big difference.
Comment by Genius Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:33 am
Maybe this election is making me lose my sense of humor, but I thought the parody was weak (except for Sgt. Schultz.)
Comment by Indochine Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:33 am
Love the parody! IPI isn’t Breitbart. Breitbart is conservative but they don’t mask their activities with PACs and 501c3 groups.
Comment by anonymous Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:34 am
===Breitbart is conservative===
Is that what you call it?
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:35 am
Here’s an idea for Papola if he feels he got played and payola-ed…
Do a documentary on IPI doing a documentary on Madigan
Might even be able to make a Sundance entry!
Comment by Anon221 Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:36 am
===Rich, still waiting for you to tell us what difference it would have made had you known===
I already did explain it. More than once. I wouldn’t have consented to the interview if I had known. Try to keep up. Or click a link or use the Google. Or whatever.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:37 am
Once again, IPI reminds us that, besides being dishonest, they have no sense of humor:
“Vimeo has removed or disabled access to the video New Trailer: The Madigan Documentary as a result of a third-party notification by Illinois Policy that claims this material is infringing on their copyright.”
Comment by WTF Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:41 am
ok, they are idiots for not telling RM what was up. and most of this is ridiculous. but focusing on them NOT talking about Blago’s legal problem does not strike me as remotely the problem with this piece. I recall that the impeachment focused on things that would be discussed regardless of the indictment. one could ask if the impeachment would have occurred absent the indictment, and if you look at the impeachment itself…abuse of power and all…you could say yes. Focus on the rest of the points regarding the garbage movie. don’t get distracted.
Comment by Amalia Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:46 am
It seems that IPI has had that video taken down. Ugh…where else can one find it?
Comment by Video Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:49 am
If I were a conservative I’d be outraged at people here calling Breitbart conservation. It’s actually a collection of grifters who will say anything as long as they’re paid.
Comment by Cheryl44 Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:52 am
IPI bought airtime this morning from WMBD tv in Peoria. It was shown at 9 am.
Comment by G'Kar Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:59 am
Hello; my name is John Papola. I’m a filmmaker. I make a lot of commercials. That little dog that chases the covered wagon underneath the sink? That was mine. In 1972, I went down to Springfield, Illinois, to a rock club called the Electric Banana. Don’t look for it; it’s not there anymore. But that night, I met a man that for me redefined the word “political boss.” I remember being knocked out by his … attention to detail, his raw power - and his punctuality. That man was Chicago’s now-legendary Speaker Madigan. Forty-four years and seven governors later, Speaker Madigan is still going strong. And he’s earned a distinguished place in political history as one of Illinois’ camera shy politicians. So in the late fall of 2015, when I heard that IPI was looking for a hit piece masquerading as a documentary, and had the cash to greenlight it, well needless to say I jumped at the chance to make the documentary - the, if you will, “schlockumentary” - that you’re about to see. I wanted to capture the…the sights, the sounds…the smells of a hard-working House Speaker, on the road. And I got that; I got more…a lot more. But hey, enough of my yakkin’; whaddaya say? Let’s boogie!
Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 11:59 am
I don’t get the Blago angle. Impeaching him was a bad thing, according to IPI?
Did the Ghost of Bill contribute to the script?
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 12:06 pm
Regarding the video removal, here’s the notice:
https://lumendatabase.org/notices/13177876#
It’s not even a valid claim. The video will be back, hopefully, when the creator files a counter-claim using parody as a defense.
Comment by Stuff Happens Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 12:18 pm
If Madigan engineered the removal of Blago, that would make him some sort of hero, wouldn’t it?
Comment by IllinoisBoi Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 12:21 pm
I doubt IPI owns any of the stock footage used.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 12:26 pm
If the infomercial aired in Peoria…they forgot to tell anyone
BTW speakin’ of payin’ not payin’ we need to circle 10-17 as BigBrain files 2015 tax return — maybe he and the g* will file somethin’ from the family foundation too.
Comment by Annonin' Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 12:29 pm
The idea that “Breitbart is conservative” is what the divide in the GOP is all about. BB is fear and hatred, and it does not follow any of the journalistic norms that have been in place for decades in this country. IPI has demonstrated its willingness to use deception and avoid a fact-based reality, although it has certainly not descended to the same ugly depths as BB.
Comment by Molly Maguire Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 12:30 pm
Does Papola hope to be Rauner’s Leni Riefenstahl?/s
Comment by G'Kar Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 12:43 pm
==“Vimeo has removed or disabled access to the video New Trailer: The Madigan Documentary as a result of a third-party notification by Illinois Policy that claims this material is infringing on their copyright.”==
Intellectual property laws: strictly enforced.
Internal Revenue Service - not so much.
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 12:55 pm
The more I think about this so-called documentary, the more I think someone at IP I watched too many Dinesh D’Souza movies. Or maybe Bruce Rauner hooked up with Dinesh at the Dartmouth reunion and passed the idea on to IPI.
Comment by Cheswick Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 1:08 pm
IRS - defanged.
Supreme Court - diminished, but still biting
You’d think the court is as fed up with all this as everyone else and since eight of the nine Justices gave support to disclosure -
wish someone would make a federal case out of this.
Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 1:19 pm
Tillman’s aim is to create a Fox News for Illinois. No more dealing with reporters who don’t share their beliefs.
It’s worked on a national scale, and now unsuspecting people will get their state news from the same kind of biased source.
It’s already happened with the radio takeover, and the affiliated stations (outside of the large ones) aren’t vetting the material.
Comment by Hank Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 1:23 pm
Is anyone who hasn’t already taken a position on Madigan, going to take the time to see this? It is an internal morale booster more than anything else.
Comment by walker Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 1:54 pm
===It is an internal morale booster more than anything else. ===
Agreed. Kinda like that “You’re So Vain” video making the rounds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKaiedK9SFc
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 1:58 pm
“The parody video was removed after the Illinois Policy Institute objected to the creators using its name on the Vimeo page and in e-mails to publicize it.”
Wait a minute here…the Illinois Policy Institute sends you a message from Mike Madigan if you sign up for more information about their fake-umentary, but they complain when someone pretends to be there? Wow, that’s ballsy.
Comment by interesting Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 1:58 pm
HBO - “Dad’s Home State, Season 2, Episode 41
Bruce gets uncut version of a documentary, pops popcorn, gets butter on biker vest costume. Diana gets link to parody of Bruce’s documentary, emails back editing suggestions. Diana’s state employee hires firm that fills seats for events like movie premiere. Lance tweets pictures of “Fire Madigan” movie swag to Rep. Lang, “ck” writes press release for “Movie Night at the Mansion” event for mayors supporting the “Turnaround Agenda”, no title of the movie given. Goldberg writes a letter to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Comedy, 58 minutes.
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:06 pm
That’s genius? Seems thin. Desperate. Outside of the media and other staunch Democratic circles Madigan isn’t too popular. Still waiting to see what was false about the movie. Did they cut up what Rich said?
Comment by Yobogoya Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:08 pm
Here’s a high res version of the parody. Rich’s version is very blurry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfcRNKeUOT8
Comment by anonymous Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:10 pm
===Still waiting to see what was false about the movie===
The premise of its intent?
I mean, other than its whole idea, and duping those in it…
Other than all that… you may be on to something!
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:12 pm
The jokesters also set up a FAKE ILLINOIS POLICY website and the video is there too. http://bit.ly/2e7Wq2c
Comment by anonymous Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:13 pm
Look, if they manipulated what Rich said, lets hear about it. That he got duped is kind of funny, but unless they cut and edited and twisted his words like in that Simpson episode (”sweet sweet can”) this is all tears over nothing.
Comment by Yobogoya Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:27 pm
Claiming to not know who the filmmaker actually was but going out for drinks with them anyway is the funniest part of this whole thing.
So Springfield.
Comment by Brown Cow Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:32 pm
===That he got duped is kind of funny, but unless they cut and edited and twisted his words … this is all tears over nothing.===
No, you asked…
===Still waiting to see what was false about the movie===
Ok, I responded…
===The premise of its intent?
I mean, other than its whole idea, and duping those in it…
Other than all that… you may be on to something===
It’s purposeful intent to deceive… makes the premise false.
K? K.
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:40 pm
K. So, similar to undercover reporting?
Cry false premise all you want. Did they twist his words?
Comment by Yobogoya Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:49 pm
I’ve been duped as well … into believing that parody was remotely close to funny. Rest assured, I won’t fall for that again. /s
Comment by Deft Wing Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:51 pm
===K. So, similar to undercover reporting?===
I thought it was a documentary?
Are you saying this is reporting now?
===Cry false premise all you want===
So you concede, it’s a false premise. Got it.
You asked what was false, you concede it’s premise is false.
What else ya got?
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:52 pm
BC, we did the taping at a restaurant and I was hungry.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:55 pm
Who did the parody?
Comment by Whodunit Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:57 pm
===Who did the parody?===
And did they do it on state time, LOL?
Comment by Six Degrees of Separation Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 4:26 pm
–If the infomercial aired in Peoria…they forgot to tell anyone
BTW speakin’ of payin’ not payin’ we need to circle 10-17 as BigBrain files 2015 tax return — maybe he and the g* will file somethin’ from the family foundation too.–
Sigh.
Annonin’/CFS….
…decoder rings on…
You’re a smart guy, been around the block. I get it.
But I don’t understand why you persist in this limited “strategy” of assuming the persona of a fictional incoherent moron to sell your guy.
And do nothing else. Wow, you really do nothing else.
Where is your website tallying the real damage of the Rauner Era?
Why aren’t your Dem peeps — men, women, black, white, Hispanic — on the TV screaming about it?
That’s just basic p.r. That concept has been around for quite some time.
Your guy is pretty smart, too. One-on-one, smarter than the average bear and charming as hell.
Why don’t you reveal that on the TV and radio boxes?
A Midway Reagan Democrat Catholic School Irishman who pushed over the goal line gay marriage and a Downstate Democrat Preservation Act CC bill in the same session?
Dude, you can’t sell that? If he was 50 years old, a smart crew could make that guy president. Are you kidding me?
Instead, he has the approval ratings of Boris Bodunov, or Nixon in August 1974.
That did not have to happen. What are you doing, seriously?
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 4:28 pm
Upton Sinclair publishes The Jungle.
Willy jumps up, “Wait a minute! Sinclair took a job as a meat packer under false pretenses! Unfair! Unfair!”
Willy, again: did they twist or manipulate Rich’s words?
Comment by Yobogoya Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 4:32 pm
- Yobogoya -
Why did the Trubune chastise John Kass?
Why did Kass apologize?
You think on that, get back to me.
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 4:35 pm
==I don’t get the Blago angle.==
Mike Madigan is so powerful that if you cross him he’ll impeach you?
Comment by Demoralized Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 4:38 pm
I want to see a trailer for “Dad’s Home State”…
Comment by IllinoisBoi Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 4:41 pm
- IllinoisBoi -
HBO, bud. They just won’t release things.
Check your local listings for a time in your area…
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 4:46 pm
Because he’s not supposed to participate with organizations with political agendas. Company policy.
People with political agendas can and do expose truths. Happens all the time.
You continue to avoid the question. Did they twist or manipulate Rich’s words?
Comment by Yobogoya Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 4:46 pm
===Because he’s not supposed to participate with organizations with political agendas. Company policy===
Kass KNEW, and did it anyway.
Rich Miller didn’t know, under a false premise, making the whole concept of disclosure… false.
What was false? The premise it told participants in what they were participating in.
Kass KNEW, and then was chastise and apologized for his error.
You keep ignoring your own question…
===Still waiting to see what was false about the movie===
It’s presented premise.
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 4:51 pm
Reminder: If you’re explaining, you’re losing.
Just sayin’
Comment by Deft Wing Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 5:14 pm
- Deft Wing -
Yep.
Asked…
===Still waiting to see what was false about the movie===
Answered…
===You asked what was false, you concede it’s premise is false.===
I can’t help it - Yobogoya -, didn’t like what was agreed to here.
lol
Comment by Oswego Willy Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 5:17 pm
Here’s the Chicago Tribune’s ethics policy.
Kass with the knowing IPI propaganda and Katrina with, at the least, hosting an IPI funder were in obvious violation.
That must be obvious to even Big Brain Bruce.
http://asne.org/content.asp?contentid=296
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 5:17 pm
==- anonymous - Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 2:10 pm:
Here’s a high res version of the parody. Rich’s version is very blurry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfcRNKeUOT8
=-=
anonymous - thought you would like to know “This video is no longer available because the uploader has closed their YouTube account.”
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 5:39 pm
–Tillman’s aim is to create a Fox News for Illinois. –
Like Proft, Tillman’s aim is to get paid well for whatever his sugar daddies desire.
There’s a name for that, and it shows up way early in Genesis.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 6:27 pm
It’s not that anyone edited or twisted Rich’s words or not. It’s that they thought more than likely that if they could get the highly respected Rich Miller on the record in some way that would give legitimacy to their movie. They also knew that if they told Rich that he was part of the IPI project, more than likely he would not do it. That is the dishonesty.
Comment by Cheswick Wednesday, Oct 12, 16 @ 9:15 pm