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Rauner’s city pension brick holds

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Illinois

* The mayor’s office and at least one credit ratings agency believed just a few weeks ago that this bill would pass with Republican votes as it had in the past. But the governor put a brick on it and it only received 63 votes - far short of the 71 needed to override a veto…

The Illinois House on Thursday once again passed a bill designed to shore up the pension funds for Chicago laborers and other city workers — a measure with identical language to a bill Gov. Bruce Rauner vetoed in March. […]

The latest bill had no support from House Republicans. House Republican Leader Jim Durkin, R-Western Springs, said he wouldn’t support the measure without statewide pension reform.

“House Republicans are sensitive to the fiscal issues confronting Chicago and its pension system. However, we are confronted with the same problems with our 5 state pension systems which for all practical purposes are in worse shape,” Durkin said in a statement. “Unless paired with statewide pension reform, SB 14 today is a non-starter. The deadline to pass the Chicago Pension Bill should be extended so as to include with negotiations on broader pension reform.” […]

Rep. Christian Mitchell, D-Chicago, said the measure had bipartisan support last year, and blamed Rauner for the lack of Republican support.

“The only reason why anyone would be voting against this bill is the governor is throwing a temper tantrum as per usual about his useless Turnaround Agenda and wants to leverage the city of Chicago, the taxpayers of the city of Chicago in order to gain political advantage,” Mitchell said.

After two and a half years, the House Democrats have still not yet come to terms with the fact that this governor isn’t one of them.

posted by Rich Miller
Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 9:51 am

Comments

There is bi partisan support for statewide pension reform Mr. Mitchell

If only Democrats weren’t throwing a temper tantrum this badly needed legislation would pass

Hypocrisy alert!

Comment by Lucky Pierre Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 9:55 am
- Lucky Pierre -

This is another example of Rauner putting Agenda over the health of Illinois.

You cheer this. Good to know.

Comment by Oswego Willy Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:01 am
House democrats and Rahm are pushing a band aid approach instead of what is needed a tourniquet.

The bandaid won’t stop the bleeding

Comment by Lucky Pierre Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:01 am
LP, and so you think we should let one of the patients bleed out while we argue, instead of slowing down the bleeding first and THEN continue to bash one another over the head trying to get a permanent fix. Either you get everything you want or someone else dies. Yeah, good on you bud.

Comment by Perrid Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:07 am
What specifically does anyone mean by pension reform? I want specifics. Tier 2 IS/WAS pension reform. Annuitants will receive drastically lower benefits. By pension reform, do people mean elimination of retirement income or what?

Comment by AnonymousOne Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:10 am
We need to end pensions for every new hire immediately. We then need to lay off the state work force and rehire with the new benefit system.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:12 am
===The bandaid won’t stop the bleeding===

So… we’ll let the patient just wither until they capitulate.

So, again, you agree and promote squeezing the beast, when Rauner can’t get 60 and 30.

Rauner wants people hurt, it doesn’t matter the cost of the pain.

Comment by Oswego Willy Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:14 am
===We then need to lay off the state work force and rehire with the new benefit system.===

Illegal. You know this. You’re told this every time you try this line of thought.

Comment by Oswego Willy Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:15 am
Ron. I’ll say this, you are not one of those stodgy status quo types. Or serious thinker types.

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:20 am
We need to end pensions for every new hire immediately==

Spoken only by someone who is well taken care of in their own retirement.

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:22 am
Ron, seriously you need a plan B!

Comment by Slippin' Jimmy Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:24 am
==We then need to lay off the state work force and rehire with the new benefit system.==

Non-starter. The only way to control Tier 1 pensions is via Tier 1 salaries. Freeze Tier 1 salaries and let Tier 2 continue on as planned.

Comment by City Zen Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:25 am
What “pension reform,” LP? The version that says you can choose A or B, but you can’t keep what you have now? Because that just means waiting for the Supreme Court to strike it down. And any plan that says you can keep what you have or you can trade it for something worth less will, as you might guess, generate far less in savings.

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:26 am
==end pensions for every new hire immediately==

That’s so cute, you think people will take these jobs without any incentive. When the position I got was open, 20 letters were sent out, only 3 people showed up to be interviewed. I was pretty much the only one that was literate. If people were jumping to get these jobs, there would not be open positions for years. My Agency had to list one 3 times,and we ended up with a transfer from another county, leaving yet another open position nobody wants.

Comment by HangingOn Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:27 am
“Freeze Tier 1 salaries and let Tier 2 continue on as planned.”

I LOVE THIS PLAN! Let’s do it!

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:35 am
Why not even cut salaries? The state is broke.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:35 am
History has shown time and time again that the Democrats are only willing to hurt their unions when it helps Chicago. Rauner has observed this history, which is why he wants to tire pension reform for Chicago to the rest of the State.

As soon as Chicago gets what it wants, then the Democrats will be all like, “BUT WE CAN’T HURT OUR CAMPAIGN DONORS, I MEAN, THE MIDDLE CLASS!!”

Comment by Just Me Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:36 am
Hanging on, why not just privatize the job then? The private sector will find people to do it.

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:37 am
Let’s see…I’m a fresh graduate right out of college. Let’s debate the pro’s and cons of working for a state (without a pension) va working in the private sector. State: ok pay, no raises for years, constant threat of layoffs, benefit reductions. Private: higher pay, 401K, bonuses, raises. Yeah, without the pension, a State job isn’t too great for a new graduate or anyone with a degree.

Comment by Ratso Rizzo Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:37 am
====- Anonymous - Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:37 am:

Hanging on, why not just privatize the job then? The private sector will find people to do it.====

As we’ve seen by the DoIT debacle regarding Illinois residents private information being hacked, privatization is not necessarily cheaper and definitely not an improvement.

Comment by Ratso Rizzo Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:41 am
==The private sector will find people to do it.==

I was a temp at the state for 8 years. You can’t imagine how many temps I saw parade through, because once people got there they noped right back out. Before me they had a person not show up the 2nd day and 1 person not come back from lunch. I had my life threatened twice during that time. I decided a long time ago sane people don’t want these jobs. Good thing I’m not.

Comment by HangingOn Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:45 am
No pensions for privatized jobs is a major plus

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:46 am
=Hypocrisy alert!=

Indeed! Only the hypocrisy is yours.

Where is Rauner’s balanced budget? Why hasn’t he proposed one?

Comment by JS Mill Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:50 am
==== Anonymous - Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:46 am:

No pensions for privatized jobs is a major plus===

For whom? Definitely not the workers

Comment by Ratso Rizzo Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:51 am
===- Ron - Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:35 am:

“Freeze Tier 1 salaries and let Tier 2 continue on as planned.”

I LOVE THIS PLAN! Let’s do it!===

Sounds great except it violates labor law when you selectively choose which group of workers get raises and which don’t based on nothing except their pension status. You freeze then all…or you freeze nobody. And no raises—ever—is not exactly something that promotes hiring.

Comment by Ratso Rizzo Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:55 am
==Why not even cut salaries? The state is broke.==

Because we have contracts to honor. The time for a cut or freeze is in the next contracts.

And if we do freeze or cut salaries, that money saved should be put into the pension funds. That way, the state continues to fund employee compensation, just more money going into deferred vs current salaries.

Comment by City Zen Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:58 am
-==== City Zen - Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 10:58 am:

==Why not even cut salaries? The state is broke.==

Because we have contracts to honor. The time for a cut or freeze is in the next contracts.

And if we do freeze or cut salaries, that money saved should be put into the pension funds. That way, the state continues to fund employee compensation, just more money going into deferred vs current salaries.===

Even if you cut all state employee salaries down to zero the State would still need to raise taxes to pay its bills. A tax increase is coming. But instead of 5%, Rauner’s reign is going to make it 6% or higher.

Comment by Ratso Rizzo Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 11:03 am
I have to assume that privatizing and eliminating pensions talk is about mainly state employees. I’d love to see this attempt at teachers. I’m trying not to laugh here. Aren’t people always whining about increasing standards/qualifications to get only the world’s best and brightest teaching the little ones, the AP classes, college prep? Geniuses/experts at minimum wage with no retirement plan! Sounds like there’d be a stampede to the hiring offices.

What we’d get is no one. Just what we deserve. I still say everyone needs to take care of their own. Home school, since only you can do it best and for less than your massive tax bill.

Comment by AnonymousOne Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 11:05 am
The fact is no pension and a 401k with a decent match is better than tier 2 for new hires.

Fortune 500 companies figured out over 25 years ago defined benefit pensions are not sustainable. New hires cannot expect pensions anywhere but in Government jobs.

Democrats are all about the kids except one it come to paying them.

Comment by Lucky Pierre Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 11:06 am
===The fact is no pension and a 401k with a decent match is better than tier 2 for new hires.===

… vs. a constitutionally guaranteed pension?

Hmm.

Comment by Oswego Willy Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 11:08 am
=The time for a cut or freeze is in the next contracts.=

Are these based on performance?

If not doesn’t that violate conservative merit pay values?

Isn’t a freeze based on standing or class (Tier 1) discriminatory? I understand that they are not a recognized or protected class, but the reality is that they are being singled out.

Incentive to work harder? I know the real goal is to get them to quit, and this is a pretty gutless way of going about it, not to mention it violates conservative values.

Comment by JS Mill Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 11:09 am
1.Those that have pensions are glad they have a pension.

2. Those that hate pensions hate them because the pensions are good but only for those that have them.
3. I say we all should have a good pension instead of taking what we all agree are good pensions from those that currently have them.

Comment by don the legend Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 11:23 am
=== House democrats and Rahm are pushing a band aid approach instead of what is needed a tourniquet.

The bandaid won’t stop the bleeding ===

A tourniquet is a type of bandage.

It is not a long term solution either.

Republicans want to argue about whether the patient needs a valve replacement surgery or a heart transplant while the patient bleeds out on the table, and they can’t decide which unless they are sure the patient can afford the surgery.

Comment by Bruce Lincoln Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 11:34 am
= Don the legend=
Yes the three legged stool of social security, savings, and pensions is down to one leg for many people and that encourages resentment. This will become a crisis in the not too distant future and we’ll see what happens then.

Comment by NoGifts Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 11:35 am
@ 10:46 am:

===No pensions for privatized jobs is a major plus.===

A lot of employees covered by state retirement systems are not in social security. (SURS, TRS, State Police, etc.). If these jobs are privatized, the employer has to pay social security tax. The “major plus” becomes a “tiny fraction”. Then you add in the privatized employees NOT contributing into the pension systems, which the state then has to make up the difference. At that point, “major plus” becomes a “minus”. Then add in extra for contractor profit, and you have a “major minus”, costing the state far more then having state employees do the work. This doesn’t even take into account the learning curves and turnover rates of these privatized workers.

Comment by DuPage Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 11:48 am
End the irrational and unjust constitutional taxpayer guarantee of pension returns ASAP.

Freeze all public worker wages.

Every new hire gets 401k and SSI.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:19 pm
don, who is going to pay for all these good pensions?

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:20 pm
I wonder why downstate Illinois is in a death spiral? Outrageous taxes to pay for a coddled public workforce when you can cross the border and your COL goes down 20% or so.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:23 pm
“If not doesn’t that violate conservative merit pay values?”

Conservative values are having a real budget that doesn’t promise unsustainable benefits to a tiny coddled public workforce.

So no.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:25 pm
===don, who is going to pay for all these good pensions====

Quinn paid all his pension payments as governor.

===End the irrational and unjust constitutional taxpayer guarantee of pension returns ASAP.===

“You” are the reason the framers were wise to protect pensions.

The rest of your drivel is ill-informed at best, “angry guy on the porch yelling at clouds” ridiculous.

Comment by Oswego Willy Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:28 pm
Ron: The employee has always paid for his/her share. OUR past and current governor(s) and elected representatives have not used OUR tax payments to fund OUR share.

That said I am willing to pay more for everything I buy if it provides a pension for all of my fellow citizens who will work on average 80,000 hours in their lifetime and deserve to retire without worry.

Comment by don the legend Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:29 pm
I’m not willing to guarantee market returns. That is the definition of insanity. 401ks for all.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:37 pm
OW, you are the reason taxpayers dislike public workers.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:38 pm
The Democrats don’t have a plan that doesn’t involve raising taxes if they did it would already be out there.
Rauner’s plan needs to spend more money than he has but he’s attached conditions to it that he’s obviously not letting go.
If the Dems want the Gov to raise taxes then there has to be a give. He’s proven he’s not going to be moved by sympathy. So either the Dems start getting a better message and promote it (ala storm the building) or give something to the Gov. to get what they want (the release of hostages).
The hostages are being taken down and the Dems are standing by hoping to wait it out. It gets worse everyday.

Comment by DuPage Bard Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:46 pm
I worry more about folks outliving their 401ks.

The vast majority of honest hardworking people do not understand the rule of 72 nor how to manage their investments successfully.
Our parents, schools and employers fail to provide the knowledge to do this.

You are willing to condemn the majority of your fellow senior citizens to a life of poverty. I am not.

Comment by don the legend Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 12:51 pm
===The time for a cut or freeze is in the next contracts. Are these based on performance? ==

Based on the value of their pensions compared to Tier 2. Their merit pay is embedded in that difference.

==Isn’t a freeze based on standing or class (Tier 1) discriminatory? I understand that they are not a recognized or protected class, but the reality is that they are being singled out.==

Thanks to Tier 2, their overall compensation package is greater. I suppose you’re singling out the higher paid employees. A progressive approach, unless lower paid employees should take the hit (which they do already).

Comment by City Zen Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:11 pm
don, that’s what SSI is for. And we can tweak it as needed as people live longer, which is very rational vs. the Illinois insanity.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:14 pm
You do realize that most jobs with the state require a background check. You are handling information that is protected by various privacy laws. It takes about 3 weeks to get the background check. These jobs are not the type a person can just walk into. Most require a degree in the job field. This isn’t likes sticking a new waitress in a restaurant. People are being foolish. So is the governor who keeps saying he can save billions on pension reform. This has been debated nonstop. That money has to be paid. You cannot diminish a state employee’s pension.

Also, you should not be hostile toward state employees because they have worked their whole lives and get a pension. My pension will be approximately $712 a month. I can’t imagine how taking that away will solve the state budget problems. If they really want pension reform, start with the politicans and big-wigs who receive multiple pensions. Reform that. Stopping that is something I could get behind. But only going forward. It’s not the average state worker folks. Blaming the workforce is not the answer.

Comment by BBG Watch Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:24 pm
== Freeze Tier 1 salaries ==

So what’s new with that idea?

Already been done to the non-union / Merit Comp people … pretty much since 2002

Comment by RNUG Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:25 pm
@RNUG - Has it been applied to SURS employees?

Comment by City Zen Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:29 pm
== Fortune 500 companies figured out over 25 years ago defined benefit pensions are not sustainable. ==

Let’s revisit history again.

1) DB pensions are sustainable when properly funded.

2) Fortune 500 corps had over funded their pension systems and wanted to pull their money out and pay off stockholders instead of honoring their promises. And corporations even staged sales, spin-offs and bankruptcy so they could raid the company pension funds. That’s why very few corporations have DB plans today.

Comment by RNUG Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:33 pm
“You cannot diminish a state employee’s pension.”

Definition of insanity. A rational state would allow a future “benefit” that in no way was earned to be changed. I used to get a larger 401k match than I do today. I still get the 401k and a match it’s just a smaller match now.

My company is solvent. How about Illinois?

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:34 pm
== Every new hire gets 401k and SSI. ==

And that will cost the State or local

government more than Tier 2 … plus you STILL have to pay the pension debt because the IL SC has consistently said you can’t negate it!

Comment by RNUG Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:39 pm
Don’t give any matching on 401k until we remove all mention of benefit protection in the insance IL Constitution. And then give a 3% match, that can be changed.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:41 pm
== Has it been applied to SURS employees? ==

Don’t believe so, but someone can correct me. I was referring specifically to SERS employees.

Comment by RNUG Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:47 pm
== Don’t give any matching on 401k until we remove all mention of benefit protection in the insance IL Constitution. ==

Go ahead and remove it; won’t matter / apply to existing workers since it was a contract when they were hired … and the IL SC has been consistent about the status.

As to tying a new hire’s match to that provision, you’re going to punish the kids for the “sins” of their fathers?

== And then give a 3% match, that can be changed.==

If you make it part of the deal for new hires, perfectly legal.

Comment by RNUG Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:55 pm
Big jack is back and I refuse to be censored rich

Comment by Big jack is back Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 1:59 pm
When I read some of the hateful, selfish comments by some people who take from public workers but begrudge paying them anything, I worry that some might have a stroke (literally) while writing their vitriolic verbiage. It’s scary to me that anyone can have so much greed and anger against a group…….any group.

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 2:05 pm
For crying out loud, Ron,do you even know what SSI is? It’s Social Security for people who haven’t worked enough in their entire lifetimes to qualify for SSA, disabled children, etc. How are you going to give new hires a 401k and SSI? And hat tip to BBG Watch! Thanks for bringing up the six-figure pensions for the legislators and the judges. That’s where pension reform needs to start, at the top, not the bottom!

Comment by Ma'at's Feather Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 2:23 pm
@RNUG - That Tier 1 freeze needs to be applied across all pension systems. Probably hardest at the TRS level, but doable with the right incentives from the state.

Perhaps tie increased higher ed funding to a multi-year Tier 1 wage freeze. Maybe exempt a small percentage that generates revenue from research or whatever at the administration’s discretion. That won’t impact attracting new talent as they’ll all be Tier 2 anyway and not subject to the freeze.

Comment by City Zen Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 2:24 pm
“If you make it part of the deal for new hires, perfectly legal.”

That’s the plan. “Protecting” market and economic defying benefits has destroyed Illinois. This needs to stop immediately going forward. Never should have happened. Illinois is in a death spiral of massive debt due to stupid pols and voters and a declining population.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 2:30 pm
Anonymous, I am completely saddened by the unending greed of Illinois pols and the coddled public workforce that is destroying the state.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 2:34 pm
I do not believe freezing the wages of tier 1 employees (while not freezing tier 2 who do the same job) would survive a court battle. Freeze everyone or freeze no one (well, at least with regards to union employees). I know SPSAs in my unit whose salaries have been frozen for years, but they do not have the same union protections. I still say that the best way to take care of the pension problem is to get as many of the Tier 1 employees (like myself) to retire sooner at a lower level of compensation, with an age buyout.

Comment by Ratso Rizzo Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 2:43 pm
–OW, you are the reason taxpayers dislike public workers.–

Way to go, Willie. Proud of yourself?

Ron, how did you get that sweet gig as spokesman for all the good people? Was there an election, or are you the result of a virgin birth?

And can you see your house from up there?

Comment by wordslinger Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 2:43 pm
Some people won’t be happy until all people have the same worries in retirement: no pension, no health insurance, working until you’re 80, living in poverty and constant worry for your family. It’s truly a race to the bottom with some of the commentators here. Instead of decrying the pensions of state workers, maybe we should be wondering why we all don’t have one. And it has nothing to do with wealth—US corporations and the top 1% are as rich as they’ve ever been…thanks to the brainwashed citizenry who are trying to destroy unions and anyone else who are trying to bring us all up.

Comment by Ratso Rizzo Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 2:52 pm
- Ron -

That pesky constitution is your nemesis, not me.

- Wordslinger -.

I will go to the penalty box, 2 minutes, feel shame, then I’ll go free…

Comment by Oswego Willy Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 2:58 pm
==It’s truly a race to the bottom==

Are you referring to the public sector “race” that has no competition, forced payment of entry fee even if you do not wish to race, and no freedom to choose what race you wish to run? Because that’s more like a walk-a-thon than an actual race.

==Instead of decrying the pensions of state workers, maybe we should be wondering why we all don’t have one.==

Because your pension relies on the profits of those companies they invest in, who then figured out one of the best ways to meet those profit expectations required by your pension was to not offer pensions to their own employees.

Is Wall Street good or bad? Because all the corporate outsourcing, layoffs, pension eliminations, and other chicanery sure hasn’t slowed down the flows of public sector pension investments into those same corporations.

Comment by City Zen Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:09 pm
Ratso, freeze everyones wages. The state is broke.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:10 pm
Ratso, people are living longer and longer. Retirement ages need to be pushed out, but we have constitution that defies nature.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:12 pm
–Because your pension relies on the profits of those companies they invest in, who then figured out one of the best ways to meet those profit expectations required by your pension was to not offer pensions to their own employees.–

LOL, is that why corporate America got out of the pension business? To meet the expectations of public pension investors?

I thought it was because you could only rob them once by going through bankruptcy court. Or you could instead use ESOPs to make disastrous speculative investments, a la Gravedancer Zell.

When does your history book come out? I’ll need a new box of Crayolas.

Comment by wordslinger Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:14 pm
=don, who is going to pay for all these good pensions? =

You are.

and City Zen.

I think you are the only “taxpayers” left so the burden falls to you.

I am looking forward to my 6 digit pension funded by you.

Comment by JS Mill Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:20 pm
Companies got out DB pensions because they defy math.

Comment by Ron Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:30 pm
@JS Mill - Just me and the children. Won’t somebody please think of the children?

Comment by City Zen Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:43 pm
=Won’t somebody please think of the children? =

Touche..

Comment by JS Mill Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:45 pm
@word - My history book already came out, but the state hasn’t paid for it yet. You’ll have to make a trip to the warehouse.

Normally I pick-up the crayon cost. Are your Tier 1 or 2?

Comment by City Zen Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:51 pm
– Are your Tier 1 or 2?–

I’ve been in the private sector my entire life.

Really missed on your Jump to Conclusions mat.

Comment by wordslinger Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 3:55 pm
@word - Never said you did. But I will agree my CPS reference sailed over the mat and into the Initech fire.

Comment by City Zen Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 4:07 pm
Imrf is in good shape. Why is that

Comment by Nick Friday, Apr 28, 17 @ 4:22 pm