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* Yep…
Every midwestern politician should read this: neglecting land-grant universities is shooting their state in the foot https://t.co/xkPliJ5WAp
— Don Moynihan (@donmoyn) October 15, 2017
* From the piece…
While private institutions are better shielded from funding cuts by huge endowments, Midwestern public universities have much thinner buffers. The endowments of the universities of Iowa, Wisconsin, and Illinois and Ohio State, which together enroll nearly 190,000 students, add up to about $11 billion—less than a third of Harvard’s $37.6 billion. Together, Harvard, MIT, and Stanford, which enroll about 50,000 students combined, have more than $73 billion in the bank to help during lean times. They also have robust revenues from high tuitions, wealthy alumni donors, strong credit, and other support to fall back on. Compare that to the public university system in Illinois, which has cut its higher-education budget so deeply that Moody’s downgraded seven universities, including five to junk-bond status.
This ominous reality could widen regional inequality, as brainpower, talent, and jobs leave the Midwest and the Rust Belt—where existing economic decline may have contributed to the decisive shift of voters toward Donald Trump—for places with well-endowed private and better-funded public universities. Already, some Midwestern universities have had to spend millions from their battered budgets to hang on to research faculty being lured away by wealthier schools. A handful of faculty have already left, taking with them most if not all of their outside funding.
“We’re in the early stages of the stratification of public research universities,” said Dan Reed, the vice president for research and economic development at the University of Iowa. “The good ones will remain competitive. The rest may decline.” Those include the major public universities established since the 1860s, when a federal grant set aside land for them in every state. “We spent 150-plus years building a public higher-education system that was the envy of the world,” said Reed, who got his graduate degrees at Purdue, in Indiana. “And we could in a decade do so much damage that it could take us 30 years to recover.” […]
These universities have served as bulwarks against a decades-long trend of economic activity fleeing smaller cities and the center of the country for the coasts. Since the 1980s, deregulation and corporate consolidation have led to a drastic hollowing out of the local industries that once sustained heartland cities. But a university can’t just be picked up and moved from Madison to New York in the way a bank, an insurance company, or even a factory can be.
Take some time today and go read the whole thing.
* Speaking of which, the Tribune published another editorial about snagging Amazon’s HQ2…
Gov. Bruce Rauner is expected to discuss details of the Amazon bid after Thursday. What we want to hear is evidence that House Speaker Michael Madigan and Senate President John Cullerton recognize that creating a more vibrant Illinois is their responsibility, too. Amazon says the ideal location for HQ2 will have a stable, business-friendly environment. That’s not Illinois today. Madigan and Cullerton have to work with the governor in areas such as property taxes, workers’ compensation and public pensions to make this state attractive to all employers.
They’re not wrong, but what do you think a massive new headquarters will require more: workers’ comp reform or universities churning out highly educated people who can fill tens of thousands of six-figure white-collar jobs? That newspaper led the cheering squad for the budget impasse, which deeply damaged our higher education system, both public and private (via MAP grants).
* Back to the Atlantic article…
Together, Harvard, MIT, and Stanford, which enroll about 50,000 students combined, have more than $73 billion in the bank to help during lean times. They also have robust revenues from high tuitions, wealthy alumni donors, strong credit, and other support to fall back on. Compare that to the public university system in Illinois, which has cut its higher-education budget so deeply that Moody’s downgraded seven universities, including five to junk-bond status. […]
Illinois reduced per-student spending by an inflation-adjusted 54 percent between 2008 and last year, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities […]
In Illinois, for instance, research output has stayed surprisingly steady as of 2015, the most recent year for which full data is available. But since then, a budget impasse has resulted in some of the deepest cuts to higher education in the nation. (Thanks to a legislative override, the more-than-two-year budget standoff finally ended in July, but significant damage had already been done to university enrollments, staffing, and facilities.)
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:41 am
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This aspect of the Gov’s agenda baffles and infuriates me more than any other. What is his end game? An uneducated workforce? Crushing the morale of professors? Please enlighten me anyone…
Comment by Loop Lady Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:44 am
The Koch brothers pull our social climber Governor Rauners Strings, ask them.
Comment by DeseDemDose Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:47 am
My tech business spans two states (MA and IL), the worker’s comp costs for such desk jobs are negligible, not even a blip on my bottom line. No real difference between the two states either, and MA is the type of state you’re competing with for tech jobs, not Indiana.
Comment by ChicagoVinny Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:53 am
== What is his end game? ==
It’s essentially the same as the rest of his Turnaround Agenda: decimation of public unions (AFSCME, UPI, IFT, and especially CTU). If a few higher education places need to go away to do that, so be it.
Comment by thunderspirit Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:55 am
This is what happens when the GOP becomes a modern day “know nothing” party and private equity executives (Rauner and JB) are paraded around as job creators.
Comment by Jocko Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:55 am
While direct state appropriations to state universities have declined since 2008, the state has drastically increased spending on university employee pensions (about a billion dollars a year to SURS.) Of course, the state is making up for years of skipped payments. If you combine direct appropriations and pension payments, along with modest increases to MAP grants, spending on higher ed is flat.
Not saying that the central point of the article is wrong — it’s not. Just needs some context.
Comment by OH Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:56 am
I’ve seen no evidence that the tronc edit board values education in any form. Certainly not for themselves — they seem not to even read their own news pages, or anything else for that matter.
“Cheerleaders” is a good description; mindless chanting in support of their “team,” extended tantrums against the “bad guys.”
Consider the BLS report highlighted here last week. It showed that Illinois has had significantly higher new business growth than neighboring states over the last 14 years.
Yet with no evidence at all, the troncs have been saying just the opposite, for years, in support of their “team.”
Tronc “opinions” require willful ignorance, not education.
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:56 am
As long as Berrios makes sure they don’t pay any property taxes it will be okay. No one will complain about cheating those horrible union teacher taught public schools out of 20 million dollars a year or so forever.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:56 am
To the Post,
I want to revisit this from Chancellor Robert Jones found in Crain’s… http://bit.ly/2hHXAVN
===“Given the financial challenges facing higher education over the past 25 months, our focus has been on protecting our students’ Illinois experience and ensuring their success,” Urbana-Champaign Chancellor Robert Jones said in a statement. “We are proud that despite the state budget crisis, our graduation rate, freshman retention rate, admitted student quality and reputation among peers and high school counselors all held steady or improved. Our class sizes crept up, but only slightly.”===
Why am I inserting this here too?
The Post Rich has discusses the damage being done, some of it just by economics, and the challenges Midwest universities, some flagship, highly touted institutions are facing real problems and working as best they can to not only be competitive, but fulfill the missions these Universities strive to achieve every day.
But, Bruce Rauner purposely has been destroying higher education, flatly refusing to sign a single year worth of funding for Illinois’ higher education institutions.
As the Post states, the idea of keeping these schools in the rust belt and Midwest is a real challenge, but that grab I have above, those are desperate words of a chancellor knowing a governor is more than happy to destroy existing universities, and close others by being unresponsive to just basic funding needs.
This part… wow
“…”Given the financial challenges facing higher education over the past 25 months, our focus has been on protecting our students’ Illinois experience and ensuring their success,” Urbana-Champaign Chancellor Robert Jones said in a statement. …”
That protecting the chancellor is describing, protecting the experience.
Something Bruce Rauner would like to end, unless those experiences are at the Rauner Library, or having a professor paid thru the Rauner Endowment, or a student living in the Rauner Dormatory… all at Dartmouth, but still…
This Post should scare us. It should scare us that others are facing similar challenges, but Bruce Rauner is helping those challenges win. Thinking otherwise is misunderstanding the likes of Chancellor Jones.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:58 am
Don’t get me wrong. What Rauner did to higher Ed is an apostasy.
But I must point out the health and vigor of
Northwestern University
And University of Chicago
Chicago has academic power for an H2
Just weakened by lack of public university power
I get crabby when articles go straight to Harvard, Stanford
Without acknowledging our great
Private universities.
Comment by Honeybear Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 9:58 am
Harvard, MIT, and Stanford are mainly graduate schools with a small undergraduate body. U of I does both.
It helps to compare graduate and undergraduate schools separately. The State schools used to have select group of undergraduate students with the academic ability to succeed at Harvard, but not the financial ability to attend. Are those students still in Illinois, or going elsewhere?
Comment by Last Bull Moose Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:00 am
The legislative leaders, Dems and Repubs, are private college grads, so there won’t any push from them to help public higher ed, though they don’t mind public money in the form of MAP grants (whenever those are appropriated) flowing to private colleges. I think both parties are fine with an ignorant electorate, such keeps them from having to make intelligent arguments for their raison d’etre.
Comment by My New Handle Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:02 am
==This is what happens when the GOP becomes a modern day “know nothing” party==
Purdue seems to be thriving in GOP land. They must know something.
Comment by City Zen Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:05 am
I am all for our schools and the jobs they create. SIU has been under the liberal thumb for the last 40 years or more. Some of the classes offered are a joke. They try to support an athletic program that consumes huge amounts of tax dollars. The last time there was a good basketball team was when Walt Frazier played. Every professor there is writing a book and has students teaching their classes. Let it die and the local jr. colleges can absorb most of the local kids wanting to go to school. After that most go to Murray or USI in Evansville to complete their degree.
Comment by Nieva Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:05 am
When you have a governor who not only financially withholds funds for the operation of academic institutions but then additionally, badmouths them and everything else in this state (that he represents at the highest level), who would think highly of any of it? Such a tragedy to see our higher ed institutions be dealt a blow by someone who should be touting them and encouraging their quality.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:06 am
===Let it die and the local jr. colleges can absorb most of the local kids wanting to go to school. After that most go to Murray or USI in Evansville to complete their degree.===
If Bruce Rauner wants to run downstate with a campaign promise of closing state universities as an open promise he plans on doing, I’ll help Rauner spread that message.
Why won’t Rauner say that?
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:08 am
Yes, you do have to wonder why a highly educated successful person (people) would want to dumb down education for everyone else. Isn’t it in everyone’s best interest to have a highly educated population? Or does it threaten the superiority of the wealthy?
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:12 am
This is an admin problem and a spending problem.
State approps to higher ed are up more than 60 percent ($4.1B in 2015 from $2.5B in 2006). Tuition doubled.
Meanwhile, full-time equivalent administrator positions are up 26 percent. Pensions now take 50 cents of every state dollar.
And enrollment is *down* over the decade.
Get the priorities straight. Then you’ve earned the right to complain.
Comment by It's Dinner Time Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:16 am
===Get the priorities straight. Then you’ve earned the right to complain.===
lol
The priority is to get Bruce Rauner to sign a full and compete year of higher education funding for Illinois.
I would think Chancellor Jones has a good grasp what ails UIUC.
Keep up.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:26 am
==why a highly educated successful person would want to dumb down education for everyone else.==
So Robber Barons could reinstitute serfdom in “a Nation of Haves and Soon-to-Haves”
Comment by Jocko Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:29 am
===The priority is to get Bruce Rauner to sign a full and compete year of higher education funding for Illinois.===
Do you want to address the data presented or not? Your appeal to authority isn’t an argument.
Comment by It's Dinner Time Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:29 am
===Do you want to address the data presented or not? Your appeal to authority isn’t an argument.===
No, lol, my appeal is if the data is so right, why won’t Rauner just run a campaign, openly, to close universitities.
If Rauner won’t run that type of race, why won’t Rauner fully fund state universities for whole fiscal years at a time.
Good try thou.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:32 am
Unfortunately we can not lay this all on the feet of Rauner. The financial asphyxiation of higher ed in this state goes back much further.
Reluctantly, we have to admit that the neo-liberal, avoid-taxes-to-stay-ahead-of-Republicans, version of the Democratic Party has failed us as well. Senate Dems put out a report two years ago or so now that scandalously put the blame on “administrative costs.” The implication: no reinvestment was necessary. But it was painfully clear from the report that they had not even bothered to pick up the phone and talk to VP for financial affairs at one of the publics. If they had, they would have seen that there were a number of quite legitimate explanations for most but not quite all of the “administrative bloat.” They did not even try not to be ignorant. They were unknowingly in hoc to a Reagan Era myth about government. If the Senate Dems behaved thus, what hope was there for Public Higher Ed in the state?
The Atlantic article intimates some important lessons of U.S. Economic History that deserve some stress: The U.S. economy was NOT built on laissez faire, but on targeted public investment rooted in the Republican Party Platform of the 1860s (Homestead Act, Land Grant College Act, Freedmen’s Bureau Act, Pacific Railway Act, Legal Tender Act, National Banking Act, Tariff Act etc., etc.
This cooperative relationship between public and private was extended in Progressive Era, New Neal, Fair Deal, and yes, the Great Society.
It is time for Dems to abandon their dalliance with neo-liberal Reaganism and proclaim loud and clear that Reaganism has destroyed the middle class and is rapidly destroying this country!
Comment by HistProf Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:33 am
===Good try thou. (sic)===
Who said anything about closing universities? Trim admin and you’re on much better footing.
Are costs a problem or not, in your opinion?
Comment by It's Dinner Time Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:37 am
This is so shameful, and creates a downward spiral that is difficult to reverse — top notch faculty going elsewhere, top students going elsewhere just leads to more of the same. It is so easy to destroy and so difficult to rebuild. I would hope that this issue of investing in higher ed and our young people is a central one in the upcoming Governor’s race.
Comment by pawn Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:38 am
===Are costs a problem or not, in your opinion?===
When you receive no full funding from a governor for 3 fiscal years, and that 3rd year is being funded by a legislative override, the cost to the purposeful damage Rauner inflicted, that’s as real as anything.
It’s not my opinion, it’s the opinion of Chancellor Jones.
You’re smarter than Chancellor Jones in this matter? That’s fun.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:41 am
===You’re smarter than Chancellor Jones in this matter? That’s fun.===
Um, in what world does a chancellor paint an accurate portrait of his or her institution’s spending problems? Not saying he’s lying, just not particularly inclined to tell that part of the story.
Again, state approp has doubled over the decade. Tuition has doubled at most public universities over the last decade. Admin is up 26% over the last decade. Enrollment is down over the last decade.
The impasse had an effect, sure, but there are deeper issues.
Dismiss them at your peril.
Comment by It's Dinner Time Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:52 am
Also, in governin’…
You refuse to fund something with budgetary dollars or appropriations, you wavy that program, that purchase, that… university… to cease.
Funding something at a level of zero means you want it closed or forcing it to implode upon itself with lack of funding.
Not too hard to grasp.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:53 am
===Dismiss them at your peril===
Dismiss Rauner’s flat out refusal to fully fund higher education for a while fiscal year? No I’m not dismissing it, lol
Why won’t Rauner just say he wants state universities closed?
Why won’t Rauner just say “funding universities in Illinois isn’t worth it”?
Hmm.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:57 am
===Again, state approp has doubled over the decade===
… but ignore Rauner refusing to fully fund higher education his first two fiscal years…
lol
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:58 am
The U of I in Champaign-Urbana has been shooting itself in the foot for a while now, as well. It has always benefited from a varied student body and I met many wonderful and interesting students from other states and countries while I attended there. Yet more recently the U of I has increasingly decided to take foreign students with their higher tuition — to the detriment of enrolling home grown Illinois students of equally high academic credentials. They have also made some egregious mistakes that have resulted in older alums removing the university from their estate plans. This all has affected the endowments and financial health of the system. Just to be fair, there’s plenty of fault to share and much of it predates the Rauner administration.
Comment by Responsa Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 10:59 am
===The impasse had an effect, sure, but there are deeper issues.===
You refuse to fund something for two whole fiscal years, that’s pretty deep when it goes from “something” to oh, I dunno, zero. lol
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 11:00 am
This quote appeared in today’s WaPo in regards to Trump, but it could just as easily be applied to Rauner:
“Legendary House Speaker Sam Rayburn once said, “Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one.” “
Comment by pawn Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 11:08 am
===Why won’t Rauner just say he wants state universities closed?===
*Again*, moving admin to 2005/06 levels would do wonders. No need for closures.
Let me know when you have a real argument against that plan. You should have plenty of time to research if you took a lil breather between comments.
Comment by It's Dinner Time Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 11:08 am
Thank you Willy for your valid points.
Last Friday the U of I System launched a major fundraising program to raise money for its Foundation and Endowment fund.
If our Governor is at all interested in preserving the status of our Flagship University he might consider making a sizeable donation to this fund.
And, who knows, maybe the University will create an Endowed Chair for the Study of Politics, Pandering and Perfidy.
Comment by illini Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 11:15 am
===*Again*, moving admin to 2005/06 levels would do wonders. No need for closures.
Let me know when you have a real argument against that plan. You should have plenty of time to research if you took a lil breather between comments.===
LOL
The Rauner Plan is funding state universities at a level of zero.
That’s “z-e-r-o”… not any level of any funding since before 1858.
You do understand what zero is, right?
Your ignorance to seeing someone refusing to fund something in government is that someome saying you want that program to not exist.
But, you keep thinking “you know”…
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 11:15 am
- It’s Dinner Time - @ 10:52 am:
“Again, state approp has doubled over the decade.”
What’s your source for that. ISU’s would be below 17% of operating revenue IF we had had a budget or the last two years. That’s down from 99% in the late ’50’s when YOU probably went to school and “paid” tuition. But that was the Cold War. More recently the collapse of state funding is likewise stark. Why is tuition up? Because state funding is down. Pretty simple equation.
“Tuition has doubled at most public universities over the last decade.”
Check those numbers.
Admin is up 26% over the last decade.
Again, I would check those numbers. But even so, there are considerable unfunded mandates in play as well as competitive pressures. It used to be that you paid next to nothing and lived in a cinder block tower with crappy food. But in a tuition driven system, universities have to compete for students and cannot afford to have them transfer out. So that drives a lot of development over in student services. Students will continue to exit the state for fully funded universities in Wisconsin, Iowa, and Missouri.
Add to that things like student mental health. Since the state has largely abdicated its basic responsibilities, universities are forced to pick up the slack there. Etc. Etc.
Comment by HistProf Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 11:26 am
Responsa is right. Not only are alums not leaving estate money to the university…..some younger alums have disontinued their membership in the alumni association and are not participating in donations of any kind. A bit upset about decisions made by the university.
And as for favoring international students over homegrown students, what is the point of academic excellence in high schools if your own university snubs your admission application? Happened in this household. Took that excellence to a state next door and got quite a nice merit scholarship for that excellence that ILlinois snubbed in favor of internationals. So yes, some problems with our flagship’s attitude without all the political stuff too.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 11:37 am
===…in what world does a chancellor paint an accurate portrait of his or her institution’s spending problems===
You do know Zee-Ro… is always Zee-Ro…
===Not saying he’s lying, just not particularly inclined to tell that part of the story.===
He’s not lying.
Zero is Zero is Zero.
Good try.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 11:55 am
= Trim admin and you’re on much better footing.=
As a 1/2 time supervisor of student teachers, I was classified as an administrator. It was fiscally better for the university to classify that way. Perhaps that’s why administration costs rose? BTW: I was cut during the Governor’s attack on the universities 2 years ago.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 12:22 pm
As Rich noted, the whole article is worth reading.
There are really two major issues here: one has to do with the general financial crisis of 2008 and how individual state budgets had to be pared. This type of cutting was fairly widespread, and Illinois was not the only state to cut higher education budgets in the past 8-9 years.
The other issue is Illinois-specific, and is related to the under-funding of SURS. Faculty are concerned about the viability of their pensions, and some are leaving for better-paying jobs and more secure pensions. Faculty at state universities in the Midwest already earn less than their peers at flagship schools on both coasts, and far less than their peers at private research I schools.
Re: administrative costs: this too is a general trend; I don’t know if Illinois is much more top-heavy than other states, but in any case, it’s happened everywhere–including at private schools, of course. There are a number of contributing causes.
Another point made is that private university endowments dwarf those of public universities, which traditionally depended on funding by their state and federal funding, as opposed to major private giving. The endowments of Harvard, Princeton, Yale etc. dwarf those of the Midwest state universities combined.
Having said all this, the current administration has made the situation more acute, and has given no indication of being supportive of a world-class research I and a group of strong regional schools. That’s extremely short-sighted, frankly.
Comment by dbk Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 12:56 pm
==Loop Lady: This aspect of the Gov’s agenda baffles and infuriates me more than any other. What is his end game?
Dumber, more compliant workforce, and voting public. Win-Win.
Comment by Ed Higher Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 1:26 pm
@anon
=As a 1/2 time supervisor of student teachers, I was classified as an administrator. It was fiscally better for the university to classify that way. Perhaps that’s why administration costs rose? BTW: I was cut during the Governor’s attack on the universities 2 years ago.=
About 10 years ago I knew a recently retired teacher who got that job and was paid $150 per hour by ISU for her “supervision”. Heavily politically connected, of course. She was once mayor of her town. Is that still going on?
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 1:31 pm
What needs to be done at UIUC is a freeze on new building and commitment to instruction, which now is just 40% of the budget according to the published budget. Keep the outside funded grants and cut those that need to be internally funded.
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 1:34 pm
Arizona Bob,
If you don’t know that capital funds come from entirely different pots of money that cannot be transferred to operating funds, then you have never looked into university financing. Full stop.
If you think university’s do not need capital improvements, I have some buildings I would like to show you.
And why would one ONLY fund research via outside grants. Did you read the article? Where do you think research comes from? The “free” market? Heaven? I’m afraid you are letting your “philosophy”/ideology cloud your vision of reality at nearly every turn. The article did a good job of showing you how innovation does and does not happen, and yet you return to mere vituperation
You are operating from an apriori assumption about government and money that just won’t stand empirical inspection.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 1:47 pm
In-state enrollment at the U of I is down just 2% for incoming freshmen, a far cry from “abandoning in-state students in favor of internationals”.
Source: https://www.uillinois.edu/data/enrollment
Out of the 14 Big Ten institutions, the U of I System ranks in the bottom half (specifically 10th) in administration size. 75% of that is roughly evenly split between financial operations, IT, office support, and trades. Which of those is the waste that needs to be cut?
Source: https://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/
Comment by thechampaignlife Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 1:48 pm
I don’t know if it’s necessary to see any grand Koch-Brothers-like scheme here.
The state like every state is aging, pension costs in particular here are a nightmare, and those are particularly hard to deal with here in IL because of the Constitution. Higher ed is controversial as a target, it’s just slightly easier to aim at than some others if you’re a politician and you gotta cut / rollback somewhere to make those pension payments.
With Rauner we just went from “gradually underfund” to “attack with a meat axe” and it turned out that in the end generated pushback. He lost the budget veto override in part due to Republicans with public universities in their districts.
Comment by ZC Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 1:53 pm
==In-state enrollment at the U of I is down just 2% for incoming freshmen==
After a major push recently to give in state kids a chance and more opportunity to attend their state university. Major push.
Also U of I ranks 3rd in number of international students admissions. Will search for that statistic and post.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 2:12 pm
I normally do not comment to Anonymous posts but will make this exception.
Thank you Anonymous@1:47 - well stated.
And thank you @thechampaignlife for your citations.
Facts do matter.
Comment by illini Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 2:13 pm
@anon
=If you don’t know that capital funds come from entirely different pots of money that cannot be transferred to operating funds, then you have never looked into university financing. Full stop.=
I was a project manager for educational facility work for about a decade, so I believe I know a bit more than you regarding prudency and need for capital improvements. I never said the money was taken from operating funds, but new buildings require funding from Op an Maint. which is still funded by student fees. Unusual but levied on students by UIUC.
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 2:44 pm
@anon
=If you think university’s do not need capital improvements, I have some buildings I would like to show you.=
Once again your attributing comments to me I didn’t make. OF course some buildings need renovation, but often building many new classrooms when your utilization rates are very low is just bad management.
BTW, do you know the average utilization factor for most land grant universities at B1G schools? Tell me that and I’ll believe you know something of which you speak.
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 2:50 pm
@anon
=And why would one ONLY fund research via outside grants. Did you read the article?=
If research has value to the public or industry, you can get funding for support. Much of the other research is for “publish or perish” by faculty to get raises.
.
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 2:56 pm
Arizona Bob,
=And why would one ONLY fund research via outside grants. Did you read the article?=
“If research has value to the public or industry, you can get funding for support.”
That is generally not the case for basic research. That’s one of the key points of the article. And there are other factors: why cure a condition when managing is so lucrative, etc.
“Much of the other research is for “publish or perish” by faculty to get raises.”
Two points: one, the raises are generally meaningless. If you think faculty are in it for the money then you don’t know the faculty. If you don’t think I could have gone to a great law school and made bank, your wrong.
two, scientific research requires a lot more support than faculty salary. Faculty salary is but a fraction of a typical research grant.
Comment by HistProf Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 3:06 pm
BTW, I had two kids graduate from Arizona State this Spring, the university rated #1 in educational innovation above Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, and Harvard. They graduated from one of the top 5 schools in the nation in supply chain management and logistics, a hot and growing field which I believe UIUC school of business hasn’t even begun yet. They make great use of online classes and student support is excellent. 300 students in their freshman class came from Illinois, second only to California. It isn’t as tough to get in as UIUC, but the instructional staff is every but as good and has few grad assistants teaching. UIUC CAN do better and become more cost efficient, but there seems little will to address UIUC issues wrt efficiency and reducing waste and bureaucracy
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 3:19 pm
–BTW, I had two kids graduate from Arizona State this Spring, the university rated #1 in educational innovation above Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, and Harvard.–
Yeah, those new Jello-shots are truly groundbreaking.
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 3:22 pm
@hisoryprof
=Arizona Bob,
=And why would one ONLY fund research via outside grants. Did you read the article?=
“If research has value to the public or industry, you can get funding for support.”
That is generally not the case for basic research. That’s one of the key points of the article. And there are other factors: why cure a condition when managing is so lucrative, etc.
“Much of the other research is for “publish or perish” by faculty to get raises.”
Two points: one, the raises are generally meaningless. If you think faculty are in it for the money then you don’t know the faculty. If you don’t think I could have gone to a great law school and made bank, your wrong.
two, scientific research requires a lot more support than faculty salary. Faculty salary is but a fraction of a typical research grant.=
OK prof. Why don’t you tell us the average salaries of full and assistant professors at UI?
Trick question. I know what they are. I just want readers to see it from your fingers so they know what “low pay” is in your mind….
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 3:24 pm
@illini
=Facts do matter.=
Fine. Then tell us about how much the average professor is paid at UI, and what the utilization factor is for the classrooms and educational labs at UIUC……
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 3:26 pm
@word
=Yeah, those new Jello-shots are truly groundbreaking.=
Actually, UIUC is now one of the best “party schools” in the US now, and ASU doesn’t even get ranked. Things have changed, and right now you dare not even be seen high on campus, let alone carrying a beer or drink. It’s like going to BYU…
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 3:30 pm
FYI, you can look at the “underpaid” professor salaries here: http://www.pb.uillinois.edu/documents/FY17-Salary-Book.pdf
The average nine month prof makes $144K with $38K in benefits. The average full year prof makes about $220K with about $50K in benefits.
I wonder how many History profs could make that much in the private sector? That’s more than most engineering project managers.
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 3:45 pm
http://www.pb.uillinois.edu/documents/FY17-Salary-Book.pdf for faculty salaries.
We pay pretty well….$220K w/$50K benes for fiscal year salaries and $144K and #38K benes for academic year profs.
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 3:47 pm
The overall public higher education “system” (it is really hard to call it that any more) is no longer sustainable within our State’s sorry present and future financial circumstances. It is also designed structurally and governance-wise for the post-war era. We really need to examine combining the public regional universities and nearby community colleges into right-sized institutions that make sense. If you think that’s crazy, look to Georgia, and now Wisconsin. Let U of I and ISU go it alone. Something has to change.
Comment by chad Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:12 pm
At this time we should be investing more in higher ed , not less. College graduates make more money , pay more taxes and are more involved in their community. An investment that makes sense for the future of Illinois. But then again when has the governor done too manyy things that make sense for Illinois’ future
Comment by Flyer Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:13 pm
AB
I think I speak for everyone here when I say nobody cares about Arizona State or your anecdotal stories that you try to parlay into an indictment of the Illinois university system.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:14 pm
@ArizonaBob - I guess we are looking at those first few pages of your cited report differently.
Not exactly sure how you came up with those, apparently, misleading numbers. Those are not the numbers I am looking at.
And besides, what exactly is the misleading point you are desperately trying to make?
Comment by illini Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:14 pm
==point you are desperately trying to make==
I can sum it up for you. He thinks Illinois stinks. The rest is just filler.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:16 pm
@demoralized
=AB
I think I speak for everyone here when I say nobody cares about Arizona State or your anecdotal stories that you try to parlay into an indictment of the Illinois university system.=
The only people who might be interested are those looking to make Illinois government smarter, more efficient and effective and want to find out how others have solved our problems. I guess few here would be interested in that, you’re right…
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:18 pm
==Illinois reduced per-student spending by an inflation-adjusted 54 percent between 2008 and last year==
There’s not a lot more that needs to be said. Illinois does not value higher education. Governor “Zero Funding” hasn’t helped.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:18 pm
==want to find out how others have solved our problems==
I’m guessing that Arizona State didn’t experience this.
==Illinois reduced per-student spending by an inflation-adjusted 54 percent between 2008 and last year==
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:24 pm
@illini
Section 1 page 1 for all UI. A few pages later it provides the UIUC numbers, as well as non-clinical numbers. UIUC a little higher than the average for 2016.
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:24 pm
AZ Bob: It is best that you use “average” salary from the front page, because that includes the faculty for the med school which skews the data. If you scroll down to page 9, you will see that the average salary for an associate prof (academic year) (avg age 49) is $96,292. It’s a nice salary, but not exorbitant for a full-time employee with a PhD and about 20 years of experience.
If we look at the AAUP’s salary survey for 2016-17, we find that your case study, ASU, has an average salaries pretty much the same as the U of I. https://www.aaup.org/file/FCS_2016-17_nc.pdf
I would also point out that your case study, ASU, published an annual salary report in 2016 that expressed concern with high turnover due to low salaries. https://www.azregents.edu/sites/default/files/public/Fall%202016%20Annual%20Personnel%20Report.publisher%2008.26.16.pdf
Comment by Pot calling kettle Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:28 pm
@Demoralized
=I can sum it up for you. He thinks Illinois stinks. =
Nope! Illinois is a great place with incredible potential. The only thing that stinks is the people the voters elect and the political and governmental institutions in the state…
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:37 pm
Arizona Bob,
I tuned out there. Quick question for you, which professors make the high salaries to bring up the average?
ans. Not history professors. You can look up the study the WSJ did on Texas A&M. Its the business faculty that skew the numbers so.
History faculty start at $47K where I work. I’m up above 60k now after more than ten years. In general, the only way to get a raise in academia beyond scheduled promotion twice in your life, is with a bona fide outside offer. That’s why certain fields get paid more. I don’t blame them, by the way.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:41 pm
4:41 was me.
Comment by HistProf Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:42 pm
@illini
=And besides, what exactly is the misleading point you are desperately trying to make?=
NO misleading points, fellow illini. Nothing desperate, either. I no longer have skin in the game. What’s frustrating is the protection of the failed status quo so may on this board are defending. YOu need to change the culture, become innovative and actually care more about the people than the government prosperity to solve the problems. I see little of that here or in the media. I try to show that there are better ways to do things, better models than political plunder to create. I know that kind of thinking scares the bejeesus out of a lot of payrollers here…
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:43 pm
Further point: Business profs start at 118K or so.
But as I said earlier, History Profs could have gone to law school. We are clearly not in it for the money, nor are we overpaid. Your reckless insinuations are resented.
Comment by HistProf Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:45 pm
@anon
=I tuned out there. Quick question for you, which professors make the high salaries to bring up the average?=
Mostly the clinical ones at the hospitals. They also dominate the highest pensions fro teachers in the state. There aren’t that many of them, though. There’s a separate table for non-clinical faculty.
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:47 pm
Further, further point: I am lucky to be among those who even have a full time position of any kind. Your typical non-tenure track teachers in the Arts & Sciences makes less than a middle class wage unless s/he has full time status. Even then, it ain’t great.
Comment by HistProf Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:50 pm
==I try to show that there are better ways to do things==
I hardly think telling us about Arizona State is showing us a “better way.”
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 4:57 pm
@Dem
I’m a UIUC alum, know kids who recently matriculated there and had two kids just go through ASU, and there’s a lot they can teach Illinois. The way they integrate online work is far better than Illinois from what I’ve seen. WE also have two “name” public universities in state while Illinois only has one. My kids had far fewer grad students teaching them than what I hear from UI. WE need more college grads for the Arizona work force, so bringing in out of state students using ACADEMIC scholarships, unlike UIUC, has helped. We had the highest percentage growth in college grads in the state last year. My kids were good students and with scholarships and Arizona citizenship they paid less tuition and fees than they would have at my Illinois JC. With problems making college affordable for instate students and drawing top students from out of state to study and work here, they came up with solutions that worked through being smart and innovative. Most of the nation outside of Illinois expects that from their public universities. We’re about solutions. Illinois is about excuses.
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 5:42 pm
BTW, ASU students rate in the top 10 of schools for which employers come because they’re well prepared for the work world. Illinois used to make that list. Either way, forget about those US World and news reports ratings. The ones that REALLY count are those from employers, NOT academics….
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 5:47 pm
“Mostly the clinical ones..they make some of the highest pensions fro (sic) teachers in the state.”
No they don’t, Bob, because they’re not in the teachers’ Retirement System.
How can we believe anything you say when you’re this sloppy with basic facts? Answer, we don’t.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 6:33 pm
@Arthur Anderson
=No they don’t, Bob, because they’re not in the teachers’ Retirement System.
How can we believe anything you say when you’re this sloppy with basic facts? Answer, we don’t.=
I guess if you knew anything about public education you’d realize that we have state run medical schools in Illinois. They’re called “teaching hospitals” because, well, they TEACH there. I believe they’re in the SURS system. Either way, those in the state hospitals like the U of I West campus who teach I believe are in one of the teaching pension systems. IF not, they’re in another state system. Learn a bit before you speak. Good thing I take little of what you write seriously…
Comment by Arizona Bob Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 7:50 pm
When you feed - Arizona Bob - this is how it goes…
Anger at people, unions, Illinois, that’s - AB -. It’s yet to change too.
I won’t respond, - Arizona Bob -.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 7:55 pm
==In-state enrollment at the U of I is down just 2% for incoming freshmen, a far cry from “abandoning in-state students in favor of internationals”.==
Abandoned or held in statis?
2017 in-state/out-of-state enrollment = 28,628/19,198
1997 in-state/out-of-state enrollment = 28,241/7,738
UIUC has demonstrated zero interest in attracting more in-state students.
Comment by City Zen Monday, Oct 16, 17 @ 8:22 pm