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Estate tax repeal roundup

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Illinois

* Capitol News Illinois…

Senate President John Cullerton, a Chicago Democrat, also advanced Amendment 1 to Senate Bill 689, which would repeal the estate tax. This repeal is also contingent on passage of the graduated tax amendment, and would phase out about $300 million in revenue, according to a fiscal year 2020 estimate from COGFA.

* Tribune…

In another effort to broaden support for an income tax overhaul, and to counter arguments that the state’s tax structure drives residents to leave, Senate President John Cullerton introduced a second companion measure that would eliminate the state’s estate tax — a levy affecting family farms that Republicans have long decried as a death tax.

The measure would “send the message to the folks that are going to be paying more in Illinois income tax that we are at least willing to eliminate the estate tax because we’re told that’s one of the reasons why some people actually do leave” the state, the Chicago Democrat said.

* Politico…

The graduated income tax proposal passed its first hurdle on Tuesday, but the buzz is all about state Senate President John Cullerton’s proposal to eliminate Illinois’ estate tax. Still, the measure would only go into effect if voters approve the graduated income tax plan in 2020.

Potentially eliminating the estate tax emerged after conversations with high-net worth constituents, according to a Senate Democrat involved in the negotiations. “Higher income tax rates won’t drive them out of state. If they left Illinois, it would be because of the estate tax,” the lawmaker said.

The estate tax is something Republicans have tried to chisel away for years but here, it’s Democrats seeking to put the policy on the chopping block. On Tuesday, in the Senate Executive Committee, Republican members refused to support the measure, prompting Cullerton to laugh out loud at the irony. It indicates how reticent GOP lawmakers are about playing ball to get the graduated-income tax passed.

Your thoughts?

posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 9:40 am

Comments

Cullerton sure put the GOP on the spot with that little maneuver.

Comment by PublicServant Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 9:46 am
How is this not negotiating with yourself? You aren’t picking up any Republican votes, and you aren’t helping yourself on the ballot with the average voter.

Comment by Montrose Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 9:46 am
Yeah, lets leave revenue on the table and just not make the full pension payment.

What % of taxpayers who are going to end up paying more would have been subject to the state’s inheritance tax?

Also curious how much this hyptothetically saves JB’s estate.

Comment by OneMan Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 9:51 am
I’m not going to fly into a purity leftist rage over this. Many want a graduated income tax structure in Illinois. If this helps, great. The problem would be if this doesn’t help get the GA votes.

Comment by Grandson of Man Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 9:51 am
===Also curious how much this hyptothetically saves JB’s estate. ===

A buddy just reminded me that when JB’s grandfather died the family told the IRS his estate was worth $25k.

That family got rich partly by avoiding taxes. The old man practically invented off-shoring.

Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 9:57 am
–The measure would “send the message to the folks that are going to be paying more in Illinois income tax that we are at least willing to eliminate the estate tax because we’re told that’s one of the reasons why some people actually do leave” the state, the Chicago Democrat said.–

How do you move away to avoid an estate tax if your “estate” is largely compromised of Illinois property?

Is this anything more than a trick bag, to get some GOPers to vote against it for future mailers?

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:02 am
Aren’t estate planners are already in the business of protecting family businesses from taxes on death? https://www.fidelity.com/life-events/estate-planning/asset-strategies/own-business Also an estate tax is different from an inheritance tax and Illinois doesn’t have an inheritance tax.

Comment by NoGifts Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:03 am
==Republican members refused to support the measure==

So what else is new? Will anyone in the ILGOP discuss the need for new revenue…or will they continue their ‘grow the economy’ and ‘find waste, fraud, and abuse’ shtick?

Comment by Jocko Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:07 am
–How do you move away to avoid an estate tax if your “estate” is largely compromised of Illinois property?—

I’m no expert on tax law, but the state of domicile dictates whether an estate tax is owed. Assets held within a state don’t impact the taxes owed.

By example, someone domiciled in Florida pays not estate tax. If they have farm land in Illinois, that land is transferred (via Florida probate) tax free.

It’s why the Kennedy’s successfully argued that matriarch Rose was a resident of FLorida, even though she hadn’t left Hyanisport in decades. They avoided all estate taxes in Mass. while transferring property (including Mass. property) to the heirs.

Comment by Downstate Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:11 am
it’s gross journalistic malpractice to not append “(which only affects estates valued in excess of $4 million)” to every mention of the estate tax

Comment by lincoln's beard Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:11 am
-Downstate- the sort of strategy what I was referring to. It’s worthwhile to hire an experienced estate planner.

Comment by NoGifts Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:16 am
Smart move on the Dems part. The estate tax is among the most unjust taxes. Who ever came up with the idea to tax someone because they have died should have been run out of office. ( and no, I am not subject to the estate tax, it’s just wrong)

Comment by NeverPoliticallyCorrect Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:20 am
@lincoln’s beard - It’s also gross journalistic malpractice to not append “(a tax which can be avoided entirely by relocating to Florida, Arizona or one of the many states with no estate tax for 180 days a year).”

Comment by dinolfo Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:26 am
I’m no fan of the estate tax, but didn’t JB just pull a fast one on us? He’s one of the richest guys in the state, and if he’s really worth $3.2B,and the top estate tax is 16% on everything over $14MM, isn’t that just north of 500 million he saved his immediate family?

Does that still work for you Grandson?

Comment by SSL Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:37 am
==Cullerton sure put the GOP on the spot with that little maneuver==

Seems like a rather expensive messaging gimmick. Did Cullerton truly think this would attract GOP support?

Is the existing estate tax actually driving families out of state?

Comment by The Doc Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:44 am
An estate attorney I worked with saved one of his client’s about $9 million in potential estate taxes by convincing him to buy a million dollar beachfront property in Florida, getting Florida driver’s license, etc. (establishing residency), and spending at least 51% of his time there.

I’m not totally opposed to an estate tax; but would prefer it to only effect the ultra wealthy (over $100 million?). First priority would be going after those hiding assets / income overseas… And maybe those who take out toilets!

Comment by logic not emotion Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 10:53 am
So if this passes and gets to the Governor’s office, one of the richest people in America, he will sign it without any blowback from members of his own party?

He who laughs last laughs best.

Comment by Louis G. Atsaves Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:02 am
My thought is where are the progressive and liberal voices ardently opposing this idea? How is it possible that a super-majority of Democrats are pushing this idea?

If you want to entice capitalists to come to your state, you don’t need giveaways and tax havens, you need what they are really after: a strong, vibrant consumer base.

Rauner just put his house on the market, do we really think he’s seeing this move through the legislator and rethinking whether or not to leave?

This is not the time to eliminate the estate tax but to increase it. The moral argument for an estate tax postulates that merit should matter more than heritage. It also puts forward that our society made it possible for someone to amass such a vast amount of wealth, and that possibility needs to be maintained.

I know this breaks with the ‘messaging’ of the Pritzker administration, but an estate tax is the true fair tax. It is antithetical to the idea that the rich should pay more thus we need a progressive income tax structure while also pushing to eliminate the estate tax. It’s a compromise that progressives didn’t ask for, didn’t vote for, and shouldn’t support.

Comment by MG85 Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:02 am
I am ver surprised to see Illinois Democrats voting for complete repeal of the Illinois Estate Tax. This seems very contrary to what 2020 Democratic Presidential candidates’ positions are regarding the Federal Estate Tax. Most want to lower the exemption significantly and Warren has proposed an annual “wealth tax.”

Comment by BCOSEC Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:21 am
The estate tax elimination idea is a meaningless red herring that just throws complexity into the fair tax pudding. It looks suspicious and slimy. Most Illinoisans know full well their estates would never have grown to be affected anyway. But many working people and families can see themselves (or aspire to be) in the in the 250 grand a year income range at some point where they will be affected.

Comment by Responsa Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:29 am
No worries about the super-rich leaving, praise be and thanks to the Griff.

He’s staying put, no matter what, despite what the Tribbie headline writer says is “corruption, cronyism and crime.”

The fact that he banked $9.9 billion here might have something to do with it, too, I imagine. That kind of run would certainly give me the warm-and-fuzzies about a place.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-ken-griffin-billionaire-interview-illinois-problems-20190501-story.html

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:30 am
–The estate tax elimination idea is a meaningless red herring that just throws complexity into the fair tax pudding. It looks suspicious and slimy.–

That complex, slimy, suspicious red herring that wouldn’t effect many people has been GOP bedrock policy forever.

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:35 am
—-he will sign it without any blowback from members of his own party?—-

That is rich, indeed. The savings that JB will accrue for himself is absolutely quantifiable. But all those that screamed that Rauner was serving as governor just to line his pockets (completely unproven) remain silent on this verifiable enrichment scheme.

Comment by Downstate Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:36 am
===verifiable enrichment scheme===

It’s the Senate’s plan. Pritzker hasn’t supported it.

Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:37 am
–So if this passes and gets to the Governor’s office, one of the richest people in America, he will sign it without any blowback from members of his own party?–

I don’t know, do you? It’s not Pritzker’s proposal.

But I’m sure you know that, because you’re a stickler for reading the actual posts before commenting.

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:48 am
==I’m not going to fly into a purity leftist rage over this==

Why stop now?

Comment by City Zen Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:51 am
Only 12 states currently have an estate tax while 6 have an inheritance tax. California does not have either

https://taxfoundation.org/state-estate-tax-inheritance-tax-2018/

All are in the north. One easy way to avoid the tax completely is spend 6 months +1 day as a resident of one of the many states including WI, MI and IN who do not impose the taxes.

Pretending wealthy retirees would just accept an increase in the estate tax and not accelerate their exodus is short sighted.

Comment by Lucky Pierre Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 11:51 am
=== The estate tax is…tax(ing) someone because they have died ===
The tax actually come from the inheritance, so the heirs get less. It’s a transaction tax.

Comment by anon2 Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:08 pm
==All are in the north. One easy way to avoid the tax completely is spend 6 months +1 day as a resident of one of the many states including WI, MI and IN who do not impose the taxes.==

It is baffling to me that we look at how scoundrels and greedy aristocrats can skirt around the law and conclude we shouldn’t have the law instead of saying how do we strengthen the law to prevent the loopholes.

Isn’t this exactly what we should be arguing about the toilet gimmick JB’s attorney’s used to lower his tax rates? Shouldn’t that gimmick be eliminated? Or are we arguing there’s nothing to be done so eliminate property taxes all together?

The same can be applied here. If folks are skirting the estate tax, then let’s make it to where they can’t. Let’s step up and do what is right.

Comment by MG85 Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:09 pm
==Who ever came up with the idea to tax someone because they have died should have been run out of office.==

It was discussed going at least as far back to our founding fathers where they considered a 100% estate tax.

Comment by The Original Name/Nickname/Anon Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:15 pm
Maybe it’s what he has to do to get people on board. I welcome back the days of logrolling when people knew how to make a deal.

Comment by NoGifts Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:17 pm
— Smart move on the Dems part. The estate tax is among the most unjust taxes…

Yeah vast, unimpeded generational wealth inequality is great for an egalitarian society.

Comment by Sonny Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:19 pm
Avoiding the class warfare you all like engaging in - the Illinois estate tax is one of the most draconian in the country. Starting with the fact that nearly no other states have state inheritance statutes - Illinois doesn’t use the Fed exemptions nor is it indexed to inflation so what many years ago might have been reasonable no longer is even close. Cullerton is correct- the existing legislation is a real motivating factor to get the wealthy and near wealthy to move.

Comment by Sue Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:38 pm
==Who ever came up with the idea to tax someone because they have died should have been run out of office.==

It was discussed going at least as far back to our founding fathers where they considered a 100% estate tax.–

True.

–As The Economist has noted, America’s early state governments threw out laws that encouraged the accumulation of wealth over generations, following the example Thomas Jefferson set with the Virginia legislature in 1777. They got rid of the English legal precedents of primogeniture and entail—under which titles and property were inherited in their entirety by the oldest male heir—forcing families to divvy up their wealth among more children. Jefferson cited Adam Smith, who called the idea that people should control their estates well beyond their death “manifestly absurd.” Jefferson insisted that “the earth belongs in usufruct to the living.”

Similarly, Alexis de Tocqueville identified the breaking-up of estates as one of the cornerstones of the young country’s success. “What is most important for democracy is not that great fortunes should not exist,” he wrote, “but that great fortunes should not remain in the same hands. In that way there are rich men, but they do not form a class.”–

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/resistance-estate-tax/470403/

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:45 pm
Sue, is it somehow lost on you that when you get all wound up about the .2% of estates subject to the tax that you are an uber-class warrior?

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:48 pm
@downstate - You’re a bit off on that. If someone who is domiciled in a state without a state tax owns real property in IL, then the property in IL will be subject to IL estate tax. That said, the exemption is $4 million, so it’s likely covered. Any state with an estate tax taxes property situated in that state even if the owner is domiciled outside of the taxing state.

Comment by consmom Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:50 pm
Having estate tax repeal contingent on passing the graduated rate amendment is clearly a political ploy so that when the republicans vote against it because they are voting against higher income taxes, the dems can call them out for voting against repeal of the estate tax.

ALso, people do leave IL because of the estate tax, but because it only affects a husband and wife with a combined estate of $8 million (assuming property planning), we are only talking about really wealthy people here. I expect that the higher income tax rates will cause people to leave who are not the wealthy who would be subject to the estate tax.

Comment by consmom Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:56 pm
Word- you just hate having to reconcile reality. Do you realize that when Ray Dalio moved out of CT he single handedly crashed the States budget. How many States encourage their golden geese to exit. Illinois is in rare company on that score

Comment by Sue Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 12:58 pm
===I don’t know, do you? It’s not Pritzker’s proposal.===

Which is why Pritzker has sounded the alarm against it in speeches and press releases? Oh . . . wait . . .

He who laughs last laughs best.

Comment by Louis G. Atsaves Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 1:28 pm
=== avoiding the class warfare you all like to engage in ===

The Illinois state and local tax system is among the most regressive in the nation. The bottom 20% pay the highest effective tax rate. Why isn’t it class warfare to impose the highest tax rate on those with the least ability to pay? Instead, conservatives only invoke class warfare when those with the most ability to pay are asked to pay more.

Comment by anon2 Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 1:48 pm
Yeah, Sue, you’ve been wearing out Ray Dalio for some time. I guess you’ve reached the outer limits of your curiosity.

I’ll see your one anecdote and raise you a 13-year study of the mobility of every millionaire in the country.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/patrickwwatson/2018/05/10/high-taxes-dont-make-rich-people-move/#33a50ef625e3

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 2:04 pm
–Which is why Pritzker has sounded the alarm against it in speeches and press releases? Oh . . . wait . . .He who laughs last laughs best.–

Louis, you’re a good sport about people laughing at you.

But would it kill you to read anything about issues you choose to comment on?

How many speeches do you think Pritzker should have made since this was sprung yesterday afternoon?

https://capitolfax.com/2019/04/30/graduated-income-tax-rates-emerge/

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 2:11 pm
==the Illinois estate tax is one of the most draconian in the country.==

Interesting word choice here. I didn’t realize a law that requires an heir, who has done nothing but be born, still get millions, tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions of dollars was so oppressive.

Warren Buffett once joked that he could write a best selling novel entitled, “how to live only on a billion dollars.”

I tell you what, I’ll be happy to relieve any of these highly oppressed heirs of their responsibility and they can gift all their heirlooms to me. I’ll take a deal any day of the week that says, “you get ten million bucks but you gotta give me 2 million bucks.” I’ll take that deal every day of the week.

Comment by MG85 Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 2:38 pm
What never fails to amaze me is the hostility shown to the residents who are responsible for footing the largesse the legislature has created for our public employee members. Try paying for pensions after driving out the people in the 3 percent.

Comment by Sue Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 3:13 pm
@wordslinger, are you trying to tell me that Pritzker had no idea that this bill and that language existed? It was sprung on him? He was caught completely flatfooted leaving him speechless? He doesn’t appear to be a clueless fellow.

Try again. You are smarter than that.

Comment by Louis G. Atsaves Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 3:14 pm
–Try paying for pensions after driving out the people in the 3 percent.–

Try offering a shred of evidence other than you’re one anecdote.

You didn’t like the 13-year study of every millionaire in the country. Check the link for states with the most millionaires per capita. You won’t find a lot of low-tax, deep red in the Top 10.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/07/states-with-the-most-millionaires-per-capita.html

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 3:27 pm
Louis, keep pounding the table. If you ever read the posts before commenting, perhaps one day you can pound the evidence.

Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 3:28 pm
“What never fails to amaze me is the hostility shown to the residents who are responsible for footing the largesse the legislature has created for our public employee members.”

The richest saying many in the middle class make too much money.

Actually the lower and middle income people of Illinois have been carrying the burdens of the richest in large part because of the flat tax.

Comment by Grandson of Man Wednesday, May 1, 19 @ 4:18 pm