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Illinois counties with high firearm suicide rates tend to be “gun sanctuaries”

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Opposition to new [gun] laws comes from counties with some of the highest firearm suicide rates in the nation, according to a report by the Giffords center, a gun violence prevention group named for former U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, who was severely injured during a mass shooting in Arizona in 2011.

The analysis focused on counties in Colorado, Illinois, New Mexico and Washington that directed their sheriffs to ignore new state laws if they deemed them unconstitutional. County resolutions include references to “tyrants throughout history” and say there is no “persuasive evidence that ‘gun control’ laws actually reduce crime.”

“There’s irony that the folks most resistant to these lifesaving laws are in areas where constituents are at the highest risk,” says Adam Skaggs, chief counsel at the Giffords center.

The report points to places such as Custer County, Colorado, where the firearm suicide rate is 32 per 100,000 – four times the state’s average, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In February, the county’s board of commissioners passed a resolution that says the state’s red flag law is “in direct conflict with provisions of due process, as outlined in the 4th Amendment, and contradict the right to bear arms.”

Firearms account for more than half the state’s suicides, according to the Colorado Health Institute.

The study is here.

* I asked for the breakdown of Illinois counties and you can find that by clicking here.

You must always be careful when comparing counties in Illinois because some are huge and most are small or even tiny. For instance, as you can see on the spreadsheet, there’s no data on 18 Illinois counties beyond annual suicide rates. That’s because, I was told, the actual numbers are so low (the counties are quite small) that the CDC doesn’t release the firearm-related breakouts. All 18 are above (some way above) the state average in suicide rates. 13 of those 18 counties are self-declared 2nd Amendment sanctuary counties. Other counties that didn’t make the list have such low numbers that the CDC doesn’t even release stats on suicide deaths per 100,000.

* Of the 63 counties with CDC-reported firearm suicide rates above the state average of 3.771 per 100,000 people, 39 are self-proclaimed “Second Amendment sanctuaries.” That’s 62 percent.

Seven of those 63 counties have firearm suicide rates above 10 per 100,000. Of those, 5 have declared themselves to be gun sanctuaries (71 percent). The highest firearm suicide rate in the state is in Massac County, at 17.254. It’s a sanctuary county.

Of the 13 counties with firearm suicide rates below the state average, just 3 are 2A sanctuaries. Those three counties (including Effingham) have a total population of about 127,000.

Cook County, by far the largest in Illinois, has the lowest firearm suicide rate in the state, at 2.440 per 100,000. All the suburban collar counties except McHenry have firearm suicide rates below the state average. None are gun sanctuaries.

* To be clear, nobody is suggesting that declaring a gun sanctuary county leads to more firearm suicides. As noted above, there’s just some real irony in the stats.

posted by Rich Miller
Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 2:58 pm

Comments

I wonder if stricter FOID legislation would be helpful ?

Comment by Donnie Elgin Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:25 pm
I suspect those stats just track the rate of guns in a home. Kind of a no-brainer that there are more gun suicides in homes with guns than homes without.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4984734/

https://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(18)32383-3/fulltext

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:25 pm
So the entire point of the study was to point out the “irony”. Sorry, but this is gross. It reeks of “the rubes don’t even know what’s good for them”.

Suicides are just a proxy for deaths of despair/loneliness. Rural areas have had the economic status quo from the left and right pass them by and leave them behind creating broken families and failing communities. That reality has formed broad swaths of “alienated America” where deaths of despair are rampant. These places are also generally conservative (I.e. big on second amendment). To draw a connection to these people’s plight and decades of economic decline largely out of their control to their support of the second amendment via suicides rates is again…gross.

Comment by J. Nolan Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:25 pm
shocking. not.

Comment by Denise Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:28 pm
===
Rural areas have had the economic status quo from the left and right pass them by and leave them behind creating broken families and failing communities.
===

Always a victim, eh?

The outside world isn’t the problem, it’s just a convenient scapegoat to absolve the locals of the consequences of insisting on ‘preserving their rural way of life’.

There’s a reason that way of life is in the past. It is a dreadful, painful, inefficient way of living.

Forcing the past to continue to exist is only hurting the people who live under that, and it is absolutely not the fault of the outside world that they are being left behind. It is the predictable outcome of the choices that have been made.

Comment by TheInvisibleMan Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:32 pm
Actually it is well proven that strict gun laws do not prevent crime, see Chicago crime stats for starters, also the CDC meta-analysis of various studies showed no correlation between gun control and crime control. All these laws do is deny the law-abiding the right to keep and bear arms. Cars are also involved in suicides, despite licenses, registration fees, etc. (a common anti-gun example which also fails in the real world).

Comment by revvedup Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:37 pm
Like I’m just throwing this out. You probably see more people commit suicide by jumping in front of a commuter train in Chicago than downstate. Hmm a study may be in the works.

Comment by Just me Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:42 pm
So let’s just get rid of all gun laws @revvedup.

This notion that anyone is being denied their rights is ludicrous. Do you own guns? Yes. Well there you go.

Comment by Demoralized Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:44 pm
Confirms those counties are a little trigger happy and prone to gun oriented solutions to all real or perceived issues

Comment by Annonin' Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:46 pm
We need a kinder, more caring society.

Comment by State of DenIL Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:55 pm
The fact is that homes with firearms have higher rates of suicide than homes without. It’s not that folks in homes with firearms are more prone to suicide but if you attempt to kill yourself with a gun as opposed to another method you have a much greater likelihood of death
H

Comment by Etown Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 3:59 pm
There was an article out a few years ago about states’ rankings in per capita gun deaths. States with the fewest gun regulations had the most deaths. Wherever easy access to guns exists, that’s seemingly where the biggest harm exists.

I wish people weren’t so hung up on guns and would better-regulate them, so that fewer would get hurt and die. But for many, guns are a big part of their identity.

Comment by Grandson of Man Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 4:03 pm
My Dad battled mental illness his entire adult life. He was on meds for years and did ok, but quit taking them the summer of 2012. That fall he ended up in the hospital for 5 weeks and went back again for 3 weeks in early 2013. We thought he was doing better. He was 68 when he killed himself in our barn with a shotgun he had asked me to take home the previous fall. I looked for it several times but could never locate it, and had forgotten about it over the winter. When he died I blamed myself for 4 years, but never once did my mother, my siblings or myself blame his death on a shotgun. It took me a long time to realize it very easily could have happened by any number of different methods. I will never agree with the narrative that firearms cause suicide, or violence, or anything else. A firearm is a tool. It’s the mindset of man that dictates how that tool will be used. We have a mindset problem, not a gun problem.

Comment by howie Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 4:09 pm
Just me - I was thinking the exact same thing. There have been a number of suicides out by me by people jumping in front of Metra trains, but none by guns. Do we outlaw Metra? Re-route the trains?

Comment by consmom Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 4:10 pm
The Chicago area is a commuter train sanctuary zone. I blame Kirk Dillard.

If we outlaw commuter passenger rail, only outlaws will have efficient transportation to work and a stress-free productive commute.

From my cold dead hands, but please remember there is no talking on your phone in the quiet car.

Comment by 47th Ward Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 4:28 pm
“jumping in front of Metra trains,” When you can curl up in the bathroom with a Metra train, let me know.

Comment by Skeptic Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 4:35 pm
Skeptic - You can lock yourself in a room in your house with a rope. There have been three of those in recent years. Do we outlaw rope?

Comment by consmom Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 4:44 pm
The reality is this: In the U.S., gun suicides are approximately twice the number of gun homicides, and this has been the case for decades.

2017 stats

47,173 suicides of which 23,854 were by firearm
19,510 homicides of which 14,542 were by firearm

Do your own search: https://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcause.html

If you read other reports, you find that firearm suicides are more prevalent among older, rural, white males.

Comment by Pot calling kettle Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 4:46 pm
==Do we outlaw Metra?==

In term of ease of access and guaranteed lethality, a trigger beats standing at a train station every time. Suicide for most is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Comment by Jocko Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 4:53 pm
–A firearm is a tool.–

Yes. It is a killing machine. That is its function.

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 5:06 pm
===Kind of a no-brainer that there are more gun suicides in homes with guns than homes without.

Mostly. Guns make suicide and homicide much more efficient. People argue with this, but why do you want a gun or over a knife? Efficiency.

That said, gun ownership is itself correlated with being white and male which are correlated with suicide risk. So the exact mechanism is hard to tease out. That said, not having a firearm in the home makes suicide a lot harder.

Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 5:10 pm
—-There have been a number of suicides out by me by people jumping in front of Metra trains, but none by guns. Do we outlaw Metra? Re-route the trains?

None that you hear of. Because news stories cover suicide by Metra doesn’t mean that is anywhere near the number of people committing suicide by firearm. 50 percent of suicides in the United States are by firearm. Hanging/suffocation is second at about 25 percent. which is about 10,000 more suicides per year by firearm than by hanging/suffocation.

Firearms are made to kill more efficiently unless you want to try to seriously argue you are going out trying to hunt deer with lassos.

This doesn’t mean we need to ban firearms, but it does mean we need to take gun safety far more seriously.

Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 5:14 pm
===Only in the mind of a killer.

No, this is the primary purpose of a firearm. It is meant to kill animals or humans efficiently. It’s baffling that people try to deny this basic benefit of a firearm, but then insist that you need it to hunt or defend yourself. If it wasn’t true a knife would be just as sufficient.

Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 5:16 pm
Etown summed it up.

People try to claim that suicidal people will find another way, but that’s often not the case.

Typically, a person will make an attempt, and if they survive, will not make another.

This is a big mental health issue. The people who survive tend to get the help they needed all along.

Having lost a relative to a gun suicide, this is a big issue for me. I often wonder what would have occurred at the relative not had the gun.

Comment by Gooner Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 5:54 pm
Arch is correct, firearms are tools for killing. How it used, and what is used to kill depends solely on the person using it.

Suicide by any means is a personal choice. It can be permanent choice to a temporary problem or it is a choice of dying by your own terms if you have a terminal illness. The statistics don’t show the reasons why people choose suicide.

What is needed is for friends, family, neighbors and others who sense someone is contemplating suicide is to talk to them, help them get the help they need. If you are contemplating suicide, there are many resources. Churches, community centers, your doctor, a friend or family member is often the right step to help.

You can even speak to someone here on this forum.

Comment by FormerParatrooper Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 6:02 pm
I’m guessing counties with higher rates of heroin addiction have higher rates of heroin overdoses.

Comment by Dave W Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 6:04 pm
“Just me - I was thinking the exact same thing. There have been a number of suicides out by me by people jumping in front of Metra trains, but none by guns. Do we outlaw Metra? Re-route the trains?”

No one is suggesting we outlaw guns. Why are you suggesting we outlaw trains?

Comment by 17% Solution Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 6:14 pm
“So the entire point of the study was to point out the “irony”. Sorry, but this is gross.”
The entire point is to see where to place suicide prevention resources.
You sure are a sensitive little snowflake.

Comment by 17% Solution Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 6:32 pm
–A firearm is a tool.–

-Yes. It is a killing machine. That is its function.-

Only in the mind of a killer.–

No, that is its express purpose, what it is manufactured for.

What would you use it for? Paint the shed? Bake a cake?

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 6:52 pm
=== Kind of a no-brainer that there are more gun suicides in homes with guns than homes without. ===

You mean like its a no-brainer that there are more gun crimes in communities with guns than without?

Or that there are more mass shootings in countries with guns designed to kill masses of people?

You sir, are a heretic.

Guns don’t commit suicide. People with untreated behavioral health problems commit suicide.

If only someone had 👉🏼 a nationalized program to ensure universal access to behavioral health services that the people in sanctuary counties could be against — 👈 that would be ironic.

With warmest personal regards,

I remain

YDD

Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 7:01 pm
Ahhh, the inner workings of the liberal mind, where you have a right to kill the unborn children, a right to kill yourself with assistance, but heavens forbid that you do it to yourself with a firearm.

Everyone dies. To kill oneself is one of those natural rights that you cannot deny anyone - even when it is illegal or a sin.

Comment by Shall not be infringed Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 7:06 pm
–Everyone dies. To kill oneself is one of those –natural rights that you cannot deny anyone - even when it is illegal or a sin.–

Uh oh, a philosopher at work.

But as I’m sure you’ll find out on the second day of your Box of Cracker Jax U. online philosophy class, the concept of “natural rights” are defined as those granted by God, so if it’s a sin, it cannot be a natural right.

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 7:18 pm
==heavens forbid that you do it to yourself with a firearm==

If you have a child (or children) AND you don’t have a terminal illness (like Dementia or ALS) absolutely (exclamation point). I also take issue with anyone who hasn’t taken steps to address problems with mental illness.

Comment by Jocko Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 7:24 pm
@Etown - “It’s not that folks in homes with firearms are more prone to suicide but if you attempt to kill yourself with a gun as opposed to another method you have a much greater likelihood of death”

Suicide rates are strongly affected by opportunity. The classic reference is that suicide rates in England fell sharply when they replaced gas ovens in kitchen with other technology.

Remove the opportunity and people don’t commit suicide. Remove the guns and suicide rates will fall. People kill themselves at much lower rates when killing themselves takes actual effort.

Comment by Odysseus Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 7:47 pm
TheInvisibleMan @ 3:32 pm- “There’s a reason that way of life is in the past. It is a dreadful, painful, inefficient way of living.” Ignorant condescending comment of the week.

Where do you think food crops come from, strip malls in Schaumburg? I remember when their were still corn fields in Palatine in the 1970s. Overpopulation and unlimited immigration are not necessarily an improvement to the American way of life, unless you have figured out how to grow food in a test tube. Cut back on the sarcasm and the $10 espressos.

Comment by Elmer Keith Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 7:49 pm
Assisted suicide is illegal in Illinois.

So is killing children.

Suicide is not illegal in Illinois, but generally considered a good indicator that things are not going well.

Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 7:55 pm
Isn’t it a bit ridiculous to criminalize suicide? Are we going to try the corpse? And what do we do if we find it guilty?

Comment by FormerParatrooper Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:00 pm
No one is suggesting… sorry but by posting this article you are suggesting exactly that. Lame disclaimer to to try to “suggest” otherwise.

Comment by Captain Obvious Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:02 pm
=It is a killing machine. That is its function.=

Well darn, my guns have been malfunctioning all these years. They’ve never killed anything - man or animal. Ever heard of home protection? Cops don’t really protect your home or mine. They only show up after the bad stuff happens. If you want a gun free home that’s your right. To defend the people that mean the most to me is my right. The Constitution agrees. End of story.

Comment by Think About It Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:03 pm
–Well darn, my guns have been malfunctioning all these years. They’ve never killed anything - man or animal. Ever heard of home protection? –

And how would your gun protect your home if it was not capable of killing what you aimed at?

This is some weirdo denial as to the function of a gun.

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:06 pm
Well guess what Elmer we can grow good in a test tube. People I know have tasted and it’s great. I know it will ruin your rural world of animal torture ….it’s great news.

Comment by Not a Billionaire Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:11 pm
** world of animal torture **

LOL, I can tell you don’t get out of the city much.

Comment by Tweety Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:17 pm
** This is some weirdo denial as to the function of a gun. **

Yet you ignore the most significant part of the post - “To defend the people that mean the most to me is my right. The Constitution agrees. End of story. “

Comment by Tweety Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:29 pm
You would be surprised where I live. To know you is not to like you.

Comment by Not a Billionaire Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:41 pm
===
Where do you think food crops come from
===

Farms.

Farms that have been automated and had their yields increased by orders of magnitude through ever progressing research.

Expecting farms to still be a throwback of the past is a fantasy. The world has moved on for farms as well, and those who have failed to adapt and still insist on doing things the old way are getting bought up by large corporations.

Your reaction proves my point perfectly. You think I take issue with farms. That is not the case. I take issue with those who choose to stay stuck in the past, and then try to blame everyone else for the consequences of their choice.

I have the same take on anyone who does that independent if they live on a farm or in a city.

Comment by TheInvisibleMan Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:41 pm
–Yet you ignore the most significant part of the post - “To defend the people that mean the most to me is my right. The Constitution agrees. End of story. “–

There was no contention in the post or the thread about the right to own a gun in the home. That was just the frightened knee-jerk reaction of some, for some reason.

I was more interested in the strange contention among some here that guns are not killing machines, or intended for that purpose.

Why would you buy or have one if it could not perform that killing function? That is its purpose.

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:43 pm
=Yet you ignore the most significant part of the post - “To defend the people that mean the most to me is my right. The Constitution agrees. End of story. “=

The Constitution was thinking that it referred to muskets.

The Supreme Court (empowered to interpret the law) says the rights have limitations.

Guns were not developed to pound nails or paint a fence. They were developed to shoot things and kill them. If your guns cannot do that you need new ones.

Comment by JS Mill Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:50 pm
===What is needed is for friends, family, neighbors and others who sense someone is contemplating suicide is to talk to them, help them get the help they need. If you are contemplating suicide, there are many resources. Churches, community centers, your doctor, a friend or family member is often the right step to help.

===You can even speak to someone here on this forum.

Amen, and I wish I had said this with my first post. I imagine many of us have had someone who made that choice–I have and it’s, as already said, a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Reach out to someone.

Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:51 pm
An earlier post got sent to moderator land, but to give you an idea of how suicide is undertaken 50 percent of suicides are by firearm. 25 percent by hanging/suffocation, poisoning which includes pills about 15 percent or so.

Jumping in front of a Metra train is not a significant form of suicide. Sorry. Success of suicide is heavily dependent from a likelihood point of view on the method–firearms are far more effective than any other method. Not having a gun handy means it takes longer to plan and get the necessary items. Hanging yourself isn’t as simple as you might think.

That doesn’t mean we should do away with guns, but we need to talk about gun safety in a far broader way.

Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 8:58 pm
** the Constitution was thinking that it referred to muskets. **

That is a tired, old one JSM…to think that, you have to agree that the freedom of speech only applies to the written and spoken word. Multi shot firearms were actively being engineered back in those days, however electricity didn’t even exist, let alone computers or smartphones.

Comment by Tweety Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 9:01 pm
The other thing to understand is that suicide is something that disproportionately impacts white men. Suicide rates by whites are nearly 3 times of black, LatinX, and Asian individuals though American Indian rates are close to white rates.

Suicide rates by men are about 4X higher than women.

Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 9:03 pm
—–Yet you ignore the most significant part of the post - “To defend the people that mean the most to me is my right. The Constitution agrees. End of story. “

No one is really arguing against individual ownership. What is telling is you are so worried about it you go off on this instead of talking about the very real toll suicide is taking on white men. Perhaps you could think a bit about how to reduce the likelihood of suicide by firearms instead.

Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 9:06 pm
===They’ve never killed anything - man or animal. Ever heard of home protection? –

Ummm…so why not use a knife? Because guns are more efficient at killing. That’s fine. But why are you denying it?

Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 9:07 pm
===Isn’t it a bit ridiculous to criminalize suicide?

I get your point, but it does in some sense allow us to intervene to help people.

Comment by ArchPundit Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 9:08 pm
ArchPundit - It’s not a good time to be a white man, what with all that white privilege going around, so I’m sure no one bats an eye at the fact that white men have the highest suicide rates.

Comment by consmom Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 11:00 pm
–I did not purchase a gun for killing. It was purchased for defense. –

And how does it work as a tool for defense? By pointing it and killing with it, if need be.

Seriously, dude, I get you’re pulling a gag. No one is this thick.

Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, May 21, 19 @ 11:16 pm
@ Dave 6:04

Here’s a good one to discuss: how closely do the rates of gun suicide and opioid addiction correlate? (hint: pretty strong relationship between the two)

My dad tried to commit suicide decades ago by asphyxiation (thankfully, he failed). I do not want to contemplate what might have happened if he had gotten his rifle out of the closet it was stored in.

Comment by Lynn S. Wednesday, May 22, 19 @ 1:24 am
==ArchPundit - It’s not a good time to be a white man==
Why?

Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Wednesday, May 22, 19 @ 7:43 am
A white man can suffer from depression just like anyone else, but white males in general are at the top in everything, employment, status, income.

Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Wednesday, May 22, 19 @ 7:50 am
I know that this post is framed as a coincidence maybe to avoid a 2nd ammendment arguement or something, but there’s actually dozens if not hundreds of good, peer reviewed academic articles across policy, public health, psychological, and medical journals going back decades that show a significant correlation between access to firearms and increases in the suicide rate in a given community being well above the national average. if you look at all gun deaths in the United States suicides are more than double homicides. 53% of all suicides in the United States use a gun. It isn’t some ironic connection it’s a very real and very dangerous one.

Knopov Et Al in “Household Gun Ownership and Youth Suicide Rates at the State Level, 2005–2015″ found that for every 10% gun ownership increases in a community, youth suicide in the community is 26.9% more likely to occur.

In “Guns and Suicide in the United States” by Dr. Miller et al in the New England Journal of Medicine, is a very good, short, academic summary of the bevy of evidence that access to firearms leads makes suicide both more likely to occur and more succesful when it occurs.

you can literally just google “gun suicide academic journal” and every single article is a substantive peer-reviewed published research paper that demonstrates what is widely considered to be a causal relationship between gun ownership and suicide. It’s a huge public health problem and there are tons of other variables that do affect suicide rates and as people have pointed in this comment thread a lot of these communities hit on those other variables, but guns are generaly accepted to be a common underlying factor in increasing the likelihood and eficacy of suicide attempts.

Comment by Recently Graduated Anon Wednesday, May 22, 19 @ 7:56 am
wordslinger,

Shooting sports (3 gun, skeet, trap, etc.), pest control, providing food for your family, precision shooting at targets, etc. Nobody NEEDS more than a ~200 square foot apartment. Nobody NEEDS a car that goes more than the speed limit.

Yeah, guns were always designed to kill, because war advances gun technology. Just like the Internet, rocketry, GPS, etc. It’s a sick mind that can only come up with death-oriented uses. If I sit and think about murdering people with a hammer all day long–I have a problem, and it isn’t the hammer.

Comment by Garren Thursday, May 23, 19 @ 7:16 pm
–It’s a sick mind that can only come up with death-oriented uses. If I sit and think about murdering people with a hammer all day long–I have a problem, and it isn’t the hammer.–

Spin yourself silly. I never mentioned the word “murder.”

The ridiculous mental gymnastics you all are going through is just bizarre. I assume if you spent hundreds of dollars for a gun for protection, you expect it to do the job its designed for.

Comment by wordslinger Friday, May 24, 19 @ 10:59 am