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* LifeSiteNews…
[Springfield] Bishop Thomas John Paprocki has ruled that state legislators who are working to pass Illinois’s new abortion bill may not present themselves for communion in his diocese and that priests are expressly forbidden from giving the Eucharist to both the Senate president and the speaker of the House.
“In accord with canon 915 of the Code of Canon Law … Illinois Senate President John Cullerton and Speaker of the House Michael J. Madigan, who facilitated the passage of the Act Concerning Abortion of 2017 (House Bill 40) as well as the Reproductive Health Act of 2019 (Senate Bill 25), are not to be admitted to Holy Communion in the Diocese of Springfield in Illinois because they have obstinately persisted in promoting the abominable crime and very grave sin of abortion as evidenced by the influence they exerted in their leadership roles and their repeated votes and obdurate public support for abortion rights over an extended period of time,” Paprocki wrote in a statement dated June 2, 2019.
“These persons may be readmitted to Holy Communion only after they have truly repented these grave sins and furthermore have made suitable reparation for damages and scandal, or at least have seriously promised to do so, as determined in my judgment or in the judgment of their diocesan bishop in consultation with me or my successor,” he continued.
Although they are not named, Paprocki included other pro-abortion state politicians in his interdict, saying, “I declare that Catholic legislators of the Illinois General Assembly who have cooperated in evil and committed grave sin by voting for any legislation that promotes abortion are not to present themselves to receive Holy Communion without first being reconciled to Christ and the Church in accord with canon 916 of the Code of Canon Law.”
The full decree is here.
* Paprocki was interviewed by the National Catholic Register…
I think they should see this as a clear affirmation of Church teaching about the respect for human life from conception to natural death. It should be also an affirmation of the clear teaching that abortion is wrong. It should also be seen as a clear effort to uphold the integrity of the sacraments and to maintain the consistency between all of those.
It is scandalous, I think, to people — that’s another issue here — it is truly scandalous to people when they see Catholic politicians saying, “I’m a Catholic but I am going to vote for this abortion legislation.” And then they do vote for it, and they vote for this extreme legislation that is promoting abortion, and other faithful Catholics wonder how can they do that? How can they do that and get away with it?
This document is not intended as a political document. The legislation has already passed. What this document is saying is that the people who have done this have done something that is simply not acceptable to the Catholic Church.
So the approach I’m taking here is, there’s two canons in the Code of Canon law, Canon 915 and Canon 916 that are applicable. Canon 915 is the one that has received a lot more media attention, and that is the one that basically says that those who have obstinately persisted in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion. So obstinate persistence requires more than one act. And that’s why my decree really just singles out the Speaker of the House here in Illinois, Michael Madigan, as well as the president of the State Senate, John Cullerton, because they have a persistently over a number of years now, pushed this pro-abortion legislation.
* Tribune…
“To the best of my knowledge the Senate President hasn’t ever attended services there,” a Cullerton spokesman said Wednesday.
Madigan issued a statement saying Paprocki had notified him earlier that if he permitted the House to debate and vote on the Reproductive Health Act, he would no longer be able to take communion.
“After much deliberation and reflection, I made the decision to allow debate and a vote on the legislation,” the Madigan statement said. “I believe it is more important to protect a woman’s right to make her own health care decisions, including women who become pregnant as a result of rape or incest. With women’s rights under attack in an increasing number of states across the country, Illinois is now a leader in making sure women are protected and their rights are upheld.”
When asked if Chicago Cardinal Blase Cupich has ever imposed similar sanctions on lawmakers who supported abortion-rights legislation, the Archdiocese of Chicago released a statement: “Cardinal Cupich has had a longstanding position over his 20-plus years as a bishop that it is important to place the emphasis on teaching what the Church believes about important issues of the day, all the while maintaining an unshakable confidence that the Eucharist is an opportunity of grace and conversion to bring people to the truth.”
…Adding… Full Madigan statement…
The Reproductive Health Act is a recognition that women across Illinois deserve access to health care without intrusion from government. I was notified by Bishop Paprocki that if I permitted the House of Representatives to debate and pass the Reproductive Health Act, I would no longer be allowed to accept the sacrament of communion. After much deliberation and reflection, I made the decision to allow debate and a vote on the legislation. I believe it is more important to protect a woman’s right to make her own health care decisions, including women who become pregnant as a result of rape or incest. With women’s rights under attack in an increasing number of states across the country, Illinois is now a leader in making sure women are protected and their rights are upheld.
I don’t think it’s totally legal to offer an inducement to legislators or threaten a specific punishment of them in advance of a vote on legislation.
* ACLU IL statement…
It is sad to read the report of the legislative leaders targeted because each took their oath to our state constitution seriously and respected the religious liberty of all Illinois residents.
We know the passage of the Reproductive Health Act — at a time when other states are criminalizing reproductive health care - was possible because of the leadership and vision of Speaker Madigan, in particular, to move this legislation forward in the House.
The Speaker and Senator Cullerton deserve deep appreciation for advocating for the fundamental rights of individuals to make their own health care decisions.
…Adding… With a hat tip to Hannah Meisel, Madigan doesn’t even attend church any longer. From February..
While he’s known as a classic Chicago South Side Irish politician and went to Catholic school (he graduated from St. Adrian elementary school, St. Ignatius College Prep in 1960, Notre Dame in June ‘64 and Loyola Law School in June ’67), Madigan does not go to church. Madigan said “once upon a time” he regularly attended services as St. Adrian and that “for a time” he “would be a regular attendee at St. Nicholas of Tolentine” but he does belong to a church or parish.
…Adding… One more reference…
Madigan also said he was not a member of any church or parish, including St. Mary Star of the Sea, the neighborhood Catholic church less than half a mile from his West Lawn home of the last 42 years.
Asked if he ever regularly attended church, Madigan said, “Once upon a time St. Adrian. And let me amend that, for a time I would be a regular attendee at St. Nicholas of Tolentine.”
posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:41 am
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It would be great if the Catholic Church showed even a 10th of the passion and outrage they direct at this issue toward the priests in their midst that prey on young children. Until they can clean up their own house, stunts, and rhetoric like this aren’t worth the paper they are printed on or the oxygen they use.
Comment by ILPundit Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:45 am
Paprocki continues his quest to be the moral judge of the universe.
Comment by Give Me A Break Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:46 am
It’s funny they will take a stance on this but not the churches Paedophilia
Comment by Blu_dude Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:46 am
They will know we are Christians by our love, right Bishop? There’s only one Judge and I’m pretty sure the Bishop ain’t it
Comment by D Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:48 am
Does Paprocki plan to withhold communion for legislators who vote on other issues that are anti life? What about universal healthcare? What about mental health? What about pollution? What about vaccines? What about???
Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:49 am
So what we are supposed to follow canon law…including this:
Exodus 21:7
“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go free as male slaves do.”
Exodus 35:2
“On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the sabbath of complete rest to the LORD. Anyone who does work on that day shall be put to death.”
Leviticus 11
7and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you.
8Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you.”
It truly baffles my mind that this guy actually thinks he is going to dictate what people think or do.
My mother cant technically receive commune because she divorced an abusive husband and wont pay the bribe the church wants you too…..
Comment by ScrathingHead Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:49 am
Man. My church (united methodist) has a lot of turmoil right now over homosexuality but one of the things that I like most about my confirmed faith is no one is ever allowed to deny communion from anyone and all are always invited to take it. One of the biggest reasons I wouldn’t convert to Catholicism.
on another note, was in a catholic church in chicago suburbs for a funeral earlier this year and there was something on their announcement bulletin board outside the sanctuary in opposition to the hpv vaccine. is that a thing in catholic circles as a whole or just one church opposing the hpv vaccine?
Comment by hisgirlfriday Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:49 am
Something about those without sin casting the first stone? Clean up your own house first Paprocki.
Comment by Fixer Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:49 am
People told me that if John Kennedy was elected President the Pope would be in charge of the government. They were wrong about that but I expect they would claim some vindication in Bishop Paprocki.
Comment by Bigtwich Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:55 am
=== priests are expressly forbidden from giving the Eucharist to both the Senate president and the speaker of the House.===
Welcome to why I don’t take part in the sacraments. The Church thinks it can keep you from God as a punishment for your supposed sins. It’s pretty sick in my view. But then again, I was raised protestant and married a Catholic girl. So my perspective on the operation of the Catholic Church is that of an outsider. Nonetheless, it boggles my mind how much the Church thinks it deserves to control it’s parishioners given the fact of the massive corruption within it’s own walls.
Comment by Ducky LaMoore Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:55 am
Examples like this are why I am just done with the Catholic Church. I was born and raised Catholic and for many years I struggled with balancing the Paprockis with the Daniel Berrigans. I can’t anymore. I am done with it as an institution.
Comment by Montrose Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:56 am
The Holy Goalie is a poster CHILD for what’s wrong AND dividing people of Catholic faith. I agree with all the other comments about how he won’t address issues in his own “house” as strongly as he does this issue.
Comment by New Slang Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:56 am
“What this document is saying is that the people who have done this have done something that is simply not acceptable to the Catholic Church.”
Meanwhile… “Catholic Church in Illinois Withheld Names of at Least 500 Priests Accused of Abuse, Attorney General Says.”
Glad I am not affiliated with this hypocritical organized religion.
Comment by IL4Life Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 9:59 am
No exorcism? That got boffo personal publicity last time.
–This document is not intended as a political document. –
That’s some chutzpah, with the false witness. From the Trib:
–Madigan and Cullerton would be allowed to receive the church sacrament again in Springfield if they make a public statement and introduce legislation to repeal the recently passed abortion bill, the bishop said. –
Carrot-and-stick, horsetrading, sausage-making, whatever you want to call it, that’s totally political.
I don’t understand why he even pretends it’s not political. In addition to being a community of faith, the Catholic Church is and always has been a hierarchical political entity.
The Vatican is a nation-state. The Pope is elected (and this one sure has opposition in the ranks). Cardinals, bishops and priests all have authority — granted from the top down — over geographical areas and seek to exercise political influence.
And the church has been involved in world politics from the get-go, seeking to spread its influence over new territories. For hundreds of years, the church exercised civil authority over much of Europe, Mexico, Central and South America.
Why pretend otherwise?
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:08 am
To forgive is divine.
Comment by Wensicia Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:08 am
While I am not defending Paprocki in the least, several commenters have revealed their misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. To hisgirlfriday, Catholics consider the eucharist to be truly and substantially the body of Christ. Communion in protestant churches is more of a symbolic act. It’s comparing apples to oranges. To the person who mentioned canon law and then quoted the scripture, again, two different things. Canon law governs the operation of the Catholic church.
Having gotten that out of the way, this is typical of Paprocki. He is more interested in getting his name in the news than anything else. To non-catholics out there on the blog, we get it, we agree, he’s awful.
Comment by Nova Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:11 am
This is one of the best examples of why we have the separation of Church and State.
Comment by DrMark Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:11 am
Obstinate persistence…so the Church must be guilty of obstinate persistence as it refuses to address the pedophiles in the Church. Wonder how Dan Macormack from the Archdiocese of Chicago enjoys prison life? Hypocrites.
Comment by Rudy’s teeth Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:15 am
Bottom line, and reading the comments above, I’m definitely in the minority, but the Bishop is dead on here. I believe most, if not all, catholic churches refuse communion to Durbin because of his position.
The abortion bill signed is outrageous and should be appalling to most. For full disclosure, I am catholic and I do feel Paprocki has been working hard to clean up the problems in his diocese.
Comment by Pick a Name Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:16 am
Abortion is a difficult issue for me because I am anti-choice but otherwise a liberal Democrat. Being opposed to Bishop Paprocki’s decree is easy in light of Pope Francis’ “Who am I to judge” philosophy. The Bishop can argue as to why a pro-choice Catholic should not receive communion because he or she is in a state of grave sin. But the final decision on that rests with God. Also, strongly agree with Da Big Bad Wolf @ 9:49. If the Springfield Diocese was being consistent about blocking Catholic legislators from communion after they vote against anything that is pro-Christian, none of them would be allowed to receive the Sacrament.
Comment by Southside Markie Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:18 am
==My mother cant technically receive commune because she divorced an abusive husband and wont pay the bribe the church wants you too…..==
Actually, divorce alone does not bar anyone from receiving Communion (the divorce you describe sounds very needed); remarriage without an annulment is where the problem starts.
If by bribe you’re referring to the cost of annulments, Pope Francis made them free in 2015.
Comment by Shamrockery Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:20 am
The moral sanctimony rings hollow while so many who purposefully harmed children remain at large and coddled by the Church.
History will judge these men with disgrace.
Comment by Dude Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:21 am
There are pro choices Churches like Lutherans and Episcopalian. The services are just like Catholic if you are into that.
You missed our other rule on Feticide it’s a civil fine in the 613 laws.
Comment by Not a Billionaire Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:22 am
So this is what Jesus would do?
Interesting, I always read the New Testament a little differently but I guess the bishop has set me straight.
(Banned word)
Comment by JS Mill Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:22 am
Still waiting for them to deny Plummer communion for attempting to reinstate the death penalty. Or do anything to address the 700+ sex abuse victims of their clergy members
Comment by Catherine Meyer Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:31 am
Ugh, the sanctimony is just gross. I suggest the Bishop channel his energy into eliminating sexual predators in his Church, and once he’s done with that, he can go ahead and advocate for access to healthcare, childcare, and education for these unborn children and their mothers. Then he can maybe think about advocating to curb gun violence in the United States, and he should also give some attention to climate change.
Comment by LakeCo Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:35 am
Exodus 21 22 Fetus is property. Loss compensated civilly so the Bishop has not read the appropriated parts I guess.
Comment by Not a Billionaire Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:35 am
After the exposure of the criminal enterprise run by the leaders of the Catholic Church, why would anyone think those leaders would have any moral authority?
And as others have said, I don’t think this is how Jesus would handle it.
Comment by Henry Francis Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:37 am
Cleary, Paproki is a republican. The republican party and that Catholic Church strive for purity by forcing people out. Perhaps they will achieve purity about the time they become utterly irrelevant.
Comment by What's in a name? Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:40 am
Democrats have made it impossible to be a practicing Catholic and also be a member of the Democratic party.
“Exit polls also follow another pattern from recent elections: Most weekly churchgoers backed Trump over Clinton, 56% to 40%. Those who said they attend religious services more sporadically (i.e., somewhere between a few times a month and a few times a year) were closely divided. And, those who said they don’t attend religious services at all backed Clinton over Trump by a 31-point margin (62% to 31%).”
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/
Comment by Lucky Pierre Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:41 am
===Cleary, Paproki is a republican===
We call his ilk Republican Rite Catholics.
Comment by Nick Name Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:42 am
–To hisgirlfriday, Catholics consider the eucharist to be truly and substantially the body of Christ. Communion in protestant churches is more of a symbolic act–
Not in my Lutheran Sunday learning. I was taught consecrated bread and wine are literally “the body and blood of Christ.”
I’m not sure what it has to do with issue, anyway. Are all classes of sinners denied communion? Would lead to an empty house, I would think.
I mean, c-mon — Paprocki, like Pfleger, is a publicity hound, seeking personal glory.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:44 am
The majority of us reject anti-choice ideology so Bishop “Poppycock” moves to coercion. Kudos to Madigan & other legislators who understand that their first duty lies with their oath of office and the people they represent. The Bishop’s silence on health care, education and other life affirming issues us deafening and so predictable.
Comment by Froganon Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:46 am
The Bishop is advocating for health care of the unborn child.
Unborn females have no rights in Illinois to medical care from their doctors.
Comment by Lucky Pierre Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:46 am
==I do feel Paprocki has been working hard to clean up the problems in his diocese==
Like exorsising the gay out of people. Because that was an important step in cleaning up the diocese wasn’t it?
I have very little respect for the Bishop. I’ve seen very little from him other than hatemongering.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:46 am
===I was taught consecrated bread and wine are literally “the body and blood of Christ.”===
Martin Luther would disagree: “As regards transubstantiation, we care nothing about the sophistical subtlety by which they teach that bread and wine leave or lose their own natural substance, and that there remain only the appearance and color of bread, and not true bread. For it is in perfect agreement with Holy Scriptures that there is, and remains, bread, as Paul himself calls it, 1 Cor. 10:16: The bread which we break. And 1 Cor. 11:28: Let him so eat of that bread.”
Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:47 am
While not necessarily directly relevant to the issue. Perhaps petty to some… But, Dear ACLU: Titles are given because they are earned. “Senator Cullerton” is actually “President Cullerton.” I suspect you’d have caught the oversight if “Representative Madigan” were in your first draft statement.
Just sayin’
Comment by Little Changes Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:48 am
The Bishop is being overtly political here. If he wasn’t he wouldn’t have singled out these two people by name.
The thing I particularly like is when he says that he will be the one to decide if they have sufficiently “repented” before ever allowing them Communion again. Because, you know, God made him the arbiter of repentance on Earth.
And people wonder why some of the younger generation is turned off of attending church.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:49 am
–Cleary, Paproki is a republican.–
Things change.
For much of its history, the Republican Party was virulently anti-Catholic (and anti-Catholic immigrant). Democrats were the party of “Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion.”
Old Joe Kennedy, one of the richest men in the country, would have loved to have been a Republican, but the doors were closed to Irish Catholics. Joseph McCarthy was one of the first to make it in the GOP at a high level.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:51 am
“I think they should see this as a clear affirmation of Church teaching about the respect for human life from conception to natural death.” Is this an argument for universal health care?
Comment by RetiredStateEmployee Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 10:59 am
==and there was something on their announcement bulletin board outside the sanctuary in opposition to the hpv vaccine. is that a thing in catholic circles as a whole or just one church opposing the hpv vaccine?==
I’m guessing it’s just that one pastor. Hope he doesn’t get communion, being anti life and all.
Comment by Da Big Bad Wolf Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:00 am
Sigh. No wonder the pews are empty.
Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:01 am
One of the greatest lies of our time is the framing of human death as “health care”.
Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:02 am
== “health care”.==
Says the man
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:03 am
Bravo! To receive the Body of Christ at mass one must fast 1 hour prior and be in a state of grace (as well as be a Catholic baptized and instructed in Holy Communion). State of Grace means no mortal sin on one’s soul. Some sins are more serious than others; some acts are objectively, not situationally, wrong, such as abortion. Priests are available on Saturdays to hear confession in advance of Sunday mass obligations.
It is important to be informed when speaking about religious matters. It is the mission of religious bodies to guide their followers on the way to live to attain heaven or whatever other goals there may be. Catholicism is a very intellectual faith.
Comment by Penny Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:03 am
While I generally support the Bishop I wonder how he can divine ahead of time whether Cullerton, Madigan, Durbin and me for that matter, have not gone to confession and been absolved of our sins prior to receiving the Holy Eucharist.
Comment by don the legend Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:04 am
Rich, we were definitely taught “the Real Presence,” that the bread and wine were not symbolic or metaphorical, but transformed after consecration into the real deal.
Who knew there could be disagreements within religious faiths?
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:05 am
“Says the man”
Are you under the impression that only females die in abortions?
Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:06 am
==State of Grace means no mortal sin on one’s soul==
If taking Communion hinged on one not committing a sin then you’d never have anyone receiving Communion.
==Some sins are more serious than others==
There is only one sin that is more serious than any other and that is the denial of Jesus. There isn’t a hierarchy of sins. A sin is a sin.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:07 am
==Are you under the impression that only females die in abortions?==
Don’t be dense. You know exactly what I meant.
A man doesn’t carry the baby.
The decisions a woman makes with regard to pregnancy really isn’t any of my business and it isn’t any of yours either.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:09 am
===So what we are supposed to follow canon law…including this:
Exodus 21:7===
ScratchingHead, I fully agree with you that Paprocki is way out of line, but Mosaic Law and Canon Law are not the same thing.
Comment by Nick Name Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:09 am
===I think they should see this as a clear affirmation of Church teaching about the respect for human life from conception to natural death.===
Well, Bishop, if it’s all about respect for human life from conception to natural death, then where do you stand on universal health care? On child care? On paid maternity leave? On job training for new mothers, CHIP, expanded Medicaid? On all those things that would help drive down the abortion rate by giving women, especially poor, single, pregnant women real options?
Because unless you support these things, I don’t believe you when you say you care about respect for human life from conception to natural death.
Comment by Nick Name Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:15 am
Do you know the difference between a mortal and a venial sin Demoralized?
Venial sin. According to Roman Catholicism, a venial sin is a lesser sin that does not result in a complete separation from God and eternal damnation in Hell as an unrepented mortal sin would.
Killing someone is not the same as making fun of them- lucky for you
Comment by Lucky Pierre Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:17 am
===Catholicism is a very intellectual faith.===
One in which Church leaders dictate how to pray, when and when not to eat meat, when to fast, when to attend church, how to repent, and what their relationship with God should look like. Riiiiight
Comment by Cubs in '16 Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:17 am
“The decisions a woman makes..isn’t any of my business and it isn’t any of yours either.”
How many human lives have been lost over history because individuals, and entire cultures, having the attitude that it wasn’t “any on my business”?
You are wrong–preventing the loss of human life falls on both of us, and on our entire society. Any decision that ends a human life transcends the initial topic. This isn’t a mere “pregnancy” decision, it is a life-and-death decision. A unique individual human life dies during abortions, and the gravity of that should weigh into the decision-making.
Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:18 am
==Do you know the difference between a mortal and a venial sin Demoralized?==
A sin is a sin. Period.
==not the same as making fun of them- lucky for you==
Bite me
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:19 am
Demoralized, cardinal and venial sins are the differences referred to by that poster. And they are correct with regards to the rules for communion within the catholic church.
Comment by Fixer Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:21 am
Venial sin, you don’t have to go to confession for that one. LOL
Comment by Lucky Pierre Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:21 am
==You are wrong==
Thanks for the decree. I’ll take it under advisement. I’ll make sure to get your permission on having an opinion next time to see if I’m right or wrong since you seem to be the arbiter of right and wrong.
==Do you know the difference between a mortal and a venial sin Demoralized?==
I know a sin is a sin. You can believe whatever nonsense you want about a hierarchy of sins. Nothing I’ve ever been taught about sin supports your argument.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:21 am
Did Paprocki further state that any legislators who attempted to defy this would be handcuffed and ball gagged?
Comment by Excitable Boy Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:22 am
What additional action, specifically, does the Bishop need to take with respect to abuse cases in the Diocese before he can weigh in on the protection of the unborn? As if anything should ever be required to precede that, but I’ll play along.
Comment by The Big Salad Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:24 am
@ hisgirlfriday, that story about hpv notice is frightening.
as for certain churches being intellectual, if you go to an Episcopal church, virtually every priest in charge has a phd. one complaint about the services is that it is mass with a lecture. but it’s always smart. and women can be priests and bishops. Rector of a great lakefront church is becoming the Bishop of Michigan. her loss will be great for Chicago. I understand many will hold on to the faith of their upbringing, but the RC church, and the Vaticant consistently disappoint. especially regarding women.
Comment by Amalia Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:27 am
==What additional action, specifically, does the Bishop need to take==
Well, he’s demanded that Madigan and Cullerton pass legislation before they can ever receive communion again. So I’d say perhaps something similar should be appropriate from the Bishop.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:27 am
“I’ll take it under advisement. I’ll make sure to get your permission…”
It’s not about my opinion, obviously. So here’s a genuine question for you: at what point do you feel a responsibility to protect human life?
When life first begin? Or later, when there is a heartbeat? When pain can be felt? At birth (which has no relation whatsoever to being alive)? At what point does society protect a human life?
Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:31 am
==What additional action, specifically, does the Bishop need to take with respect to abuse cases==
Oh gosh, I wonder if I can think of anything in the recent headlines: “Catholic Church in Illinois Withheld Names of at Least 500 Priests Accused of Abuse, Attorney General Says.”
Comment by PJ Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:32 am
“I do feel Paprocki has been working hard to clean up the problems in his diocese.”
Where can I find a list of the names of the priests banned by Paprocki from taking communion for their roles in the Church’s child sexual abuse cover-up?
– MrJM
Comment by @misterjayem Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:32 am
==I know a sin is a sin. You can believe whatever nonsense you want about a hierarchy of sins. Nothing I’ve ever been taught about sin supports your argument.==
I don’t know how many need to point this out, but this is just plainly untrue, specifically as to the ability of one to receive Holy Communion. If you want to believe something g differently, that’s fine, but perhaps sit out the judgment then of the Bishop’s actions with respect to canon law.
Comment by The Big Salad Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:34 am
==So this is what Jesus would do?==
Keep in mind that the realm of what Jesus would do includes things like whipping and driving people out of temples. The the range of options is a bit broader than some might believe.
With that said - Bishop Paprocki is being who he’s always been since he arrived here. To truly expect otherwise is to expect that Rauner would suddenly have been buddy-buddy with unions in his 3rd year as Governor after demonizing them for his first two.
And, to be fair (which, I know, is hard to do), the Bishop is also being consistent with the understanding of Catholic teaching regarding abortion. This is also nothing new. The ire is in how he delivered his message, which, frankly, is also in keeping the Bishop’s personality. No one who has ever met him would ever accuse him of being warm and fuzzy.
I’m not defending him, but you would be hard pressed to find *any* Catholic bishop who would not speak out on this development. If we want a different reaction from those in positions of authority in the Catholic Church, then Church teaching will have to change how it views abortion.
Comment by Name Withheld Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:35 am
May I remind everyone that nearly all the denominations have about the same percentage of ministers molesting children so it is not just the catholic church
As for wwjd well he certainly would not be in favor of abortion for sure
Comment by Just Saying Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:38 am
Better question for Demoralized - why do republicans (catholic and otherwise) stop caring about whether or not society protects human life once that human life leaves the womb?
Comment by Lester Holt’s Mustache Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:41 am
I have no problem with the Bishop’s stance, but I think this political action should result in loss of non-profit status. What does concern me is that there is a majority on SCOTUS that is Catholic. Should any denomiation be able to influnce the Court through religious pressure tactics? What if they were Muslim? Sharia law is lawful?
Comment by Oh? Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:41 am
==but perhaps sit out the judgment then of the Bishop’s actions==
Thank you too for the advice. But this Bishop seems to seek out controversy and I think even relishes it given his current and past behavior. He seems to be more interested in making headlines than actually tending to his flock.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:45 am
==May I remind everyone that nearly all the denominations have about the same percentage of ministers molesting children so it is not just the catholic church==
No you may not because that’s a patently absurd claim, one that can only be supported by anecdotal evidence. There is no proof to support this
Comment by Lester Holt’s Mustache Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:45 am
It seems that Bishop Paprocki is now engaging in the modern day sport of Public Shaming which, in my humble opinion, is a sin in and of itself.
For those of you applauding Bishop Paprocki’s approach, please re-read Cardinal Cupich’s statement. The Cardinal’s approach is more in line with the teachings of Christ.
Comment by Bourbon Street Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:45 am
==Oh gosh, I wonder if I can think of anything in the recent headlines: “Catholic Church in Illinois Withheld Names of at Least 500 Priests Accused of Abuse, Attorney General Says.”==
All cases are/were reported to prosecutors, regardless of the internal investigation as to whether the accusation is credible or not (generally, a priest/employee is also placed on leave during the internal investigation). If you want to argue that a Diocese should publicly name someone against whom they did not find a credible allegation and who was not prosecuted by civil authorities, just be clear that’s what you’re pushing for.
Comment by The Big Salad Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:46 am
Bishop Paprocki: Focus on your flock.
Three words - Reverend Thomas Donovan.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/priest-gets-stuck-in-handcuffs-rev-tom-donovan-911-gag_n_2411344
Comment by Scott Cross for President Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:51 am
As an ordained minister, what I find disturbing in the Bishop’s action is that he has decided publicly to shame the Speaker and the Majority Leader rather than reaching out to them privately and pastorally. It is the public nature of the rebuke that makes it political.
Comment by Uptown Progressive Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:52 am
==at what point do you feel a responsibility==
I don’t feel any responsibility when it comes to what someone else does with regard to early pregnancy.
I personally would draw the line at the point that survival outside of the womb is possible. But even then I would support exceptions (i.e. life or health of the mother or catastrophic issues with the baby).
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:52 am
==For those of you applauding Bishop Paprocki’s approach, please re-read Cardinal Cupich’s statement. The Cardinal’s approach is more in line with the teachings of Christ.==
Have you read Canon Law 915 (and related ones and other Official Statements)? There is a difference between not liking/following Church doctrine, and believing that the Bishop has misapplied it. Which are you arguing?
Comment by The Big Salad Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:53 am
==against whom they did not find a credible allegation==
This issue is off topic, but they shouldn’t be the ones doing the investigation in the first place.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:54 am
Lester Holts Mustache If you would do your research before blasting texts you will find my statements true so YES I AM REMINDING YOU
Comment by Just Saying Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:57 am
The self possessed HOLY Goalie is wrong. Just trying to drum up donations.
Comment by flea Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:59 am
==Bishop Paprocki: Focus on your flock.
Three words - Reverend Thomas Donovan.==
Yes, yes. Stop advocating for the unborn because a priest engaged in bizarre / potentially immoral behavior that harmed no one (except himself), as far as we can tell.
How many different ways can people parrot the same thing?
We get it. You support abortion.
Comment by The Big Salad Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 11:59 am
Bishop Gadfly
Comment by SAP Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:00 pm
–The Cardinal’s approach is more in line with the teachings of Christ.==
Have you read Canon Law 915 (and related ones and other Official Statements)? –
You seem confused as to “teachings of Christ” and Canon Law. They are not the same thing.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:04 pm
“why do republicans (catholic and otherwise) stop caring about whether or not society protects human life once that human life leaves the womb?”
This is always a ridiculous question. The goal of such a question isn’t rational discussion, but rather incendiary attack.
For you to actually believe that question is valid, you would have to believe there are no Republicans who are military personnel, public safety personnel, medical personnel, educational personnel, social service personnel, etc. Obviously you don’t actually believe any of that, so….try again?
P.S. I know Republicans who have died in service to protecting our nation…maybe factor them in before you ask that question? Maybe they earned that?
Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:05 pm
==This issue is off topic, but they shouldn’t be the ones doing the investigation in the first place.==
It’s not off-topic, as the same people run in here every time demanding the Church take some (never specified) action with respect to the abuse cases before it can focus on anything else.
I asked for specific examples as to what Paprocki could do in the Springfield Diocese. And the first response was a regurgitation of a headline and report that was misleading (by design in my opinion). And as I already pointed out, the Church’s investigstion is in addition to the one done by prosecutors, to whom it is reported immediately.
Comment by The Big Salad Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:05 pm
Entirely correct Big Salad
Comment by illinois_citizen Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:07 pm
== to whom it is reported immediately.==
Well, as a point of clarification they were not reported immediately in the past. In fact they weren’t reported at all. But I agree that the “yeah, but” argument is not helpful.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:08 pm
==why do republicans (catholic and otherwise) stop caring about whether or not society protects human life once that human life leaves the womb?==
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment. Are there some that do that? Sure. But I don’t think it’s restricted by party.
I think a better question is what do those who oppose abortion support in terms of what happens after the baby is born. Because there are some anti-abortion advocates who are also against welfare. And against same sex adoption.
Comment by Demoralized Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:12 pm
“I personally would draw the line at the point that survival outside of the womb is possible. But even then I would support exceptions (i.e. life or health of the mother or catastrophic issues with the baby).”
I greatly wish that was Illinois’ position. Viability is a far better, and more ethical, standard than what the new abortion bill contains. While viability is not my own standard, it’s far more ethically and logically defensible than the current abortion language in Illinois.
Comment by Liandro Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:15 pm
@The Big Salad. What wordslinger said x 1000. Also, I have read Canon Law 915. If, based on Canon Law 915, Bishop Paprocki is right in publicly shaming two Catholics and denying them Communion, then Cardinal Cupich must be wrong in not doing the same. Is your position that the Cardinal does not know Canon Law?
Comment by Bourbon Street Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:17 pm
“Madigan issued a statement saying Paprocki had notified him earlier that if he permitted the House to debate and vote on the Reproductive Health Act, he would no longer be able to take communion.”
Political acts cannot continue. Tax Churches.
Comment by Dee Lay Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:17 pm
“don’t think it’s totally legal to offer an inducement ”
You don’t THINK it is totally legal? Think? We think that is extortion. You should drop a link from Bruce Rushton’s piece torching the Bishop into this conversation.
Comment by Annonin' Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:18 pm
You know, these questions never seem to come up around the Festivus pole.
Comment by Skeptic Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:25 pm
I wonder if Bishop Paprocki can really excommunicate the Speaker and Senate President. They did not personally facilitate any abortions. They made a political decision generally about how the state regulates abortion. That is one thing I never really understand about these issues. You can believe whatever you want about the morality of abortions, but the real issue is whether the state should allow it. It is a matter of politically liberty. The state should not be able to stop women from making their own decision about their pregnancy.
One thing though that I thought was noteworthy was the part of the RHA that says that fetus do not have independent rights. Roe and Casey discuss the state’s interest in preventing abortions after the point of viability, presumably to protect the life of a fetus that can survive in the world. I wonder what the legal implications of the RHA’s provision about the rights of fetuses and those parts of Roe and Casey are if any.
Comment by Three Dimensional Checkers Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:29 pm
I’m delighted that the difference between consubstantiation and transubstantiation is a relevant consideration to this post.
I’m disturbed, at your suggestion, Wordslinger, that Pfleger and Parocki are similar in “seeking personal glory.” One is a Bishop, another a Priest. Both are purpose driven, but with very different purposes – each seeks media to advance their purpose. Given their vows, work ethic, dedication - it’d be difficult to build a case that either one’s purpose is personal glory.
I think Parocki is a nut case, but I’m willing to separate out a purpose-driven cause and individual, versus superiority. I think the distinction is important to make.
Comment by Hamilton Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:33 pm
==@The Big Salad. What wordslinger said x 1000. Also, I have read Canon Law 915. If, based on Canon Law 915, Bishop Paprocki is right in publicly shaming two Catholics and denying them Communion, then Cardinal Cupich must be wrong in not doing the same. Is your position that the Cardinal does not know Canon Law?==
My position is in line with the USCCB, which has stated that “…such decisions rest with the individual bishop(s)…who can legitimately make different judgments on the most prudent course of pastoral action.”
My intent was to push back solely on the notion, expressed by others as well, that Bishop Paprocki is somehow a renegade in his denial of Communion, specifically with respect to Canon Law. If your argument was that his decision, though perhaps in line with Canon Law, was out of line with Christ’s teachings (and thereby implicating Canon Law itself), I do not intend to debate that. But I’m aware of the difference between Gospel and Canon Law, thanks.
Comment by The Big Salad Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:36 pm
Jesus hung out with and ministered to “sinners.” He would not turn anyone away who sought him. It’s not in the bishop’s purview to judge and reject, but to minister. Judgment belongs only to the Father, Son and Grandson.
Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:41 pm
Turning people away-
Just like Jesus taught.
Comment by efudd Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:42 pm
Just kidding, of course, about the Grandson part of my previous comment, but not about judgment. It’s not for the bishop to judge but to welcome those who seek that religion.
Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:47 pm
I grew up Protestant-Pentacost to be exact.
If that bunch doesn’t turn you off church, I don’t know what will.
It seems they, and the Bishop, have a lot in common.
Funny thing is, most Pentacosts will tell you Catholicism is not real Christianity. I heard more than a few behind the pulpit denounce the Pope as the anti-Christ.
Nothing like a little religion….
Comment by efudd Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:48 pm
The planks in the eyes of the Catholic hierarchy are thousands of miles wide and high. They are in no position to worry about the specks in others’ eyes. I say this as a practicing Catholic who wonders how much longer I can tolerate being part of such a thoroughly corrupt institutional church. If the Feds come calling with RICO, I will view it as deserved divine justice.
Comment by Zim Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:56 pm
I highly doubt Mike Madigan cares . He passed the budget that shows it.
Comment by Steve Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:56 pm
- Zim -
Try not to use that word RICO when mentioning Illinois politicians , it’s a sensitive subject.
Comment by Steve Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:58 pm
===I wonder what the legal implications of the RHA’s provision about the rights of fetuses and those parts of Roe and Casey are if any===
A fetus does not currently have any independent rights under the law, see Stallman v. Youngquist.
Comment by Catherine Meyer Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 12:59 pm
Just Sayin - Thanks for reminding us of the causal connection between ministering and molestation. It adds so much credibility to your arguments. But no arguments from me, there are many denominations and none of them have cornered the market on hypocrisy.
Comment by Pundent Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 1:15 pm
The biggest award for church sexual abuse was $37 million against a Lutheran minister in Texas so why does the media only report Catholic allegations? 3 main insurance companies insure churches and the all report about the same % of claims across denominations. It’s not just Catholics folks. And if you look very hard at all, you will find the Catholic church does many things to help the needy, Catholic Charities is one good example. So the church does have compassion as so do other denominations.
Comment by Just Saying Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 1:29 pm
Far be it from the Good Bishop to protect the kids *after* they’re born.
For penance, perhaps Cullerton and Madigan can take a few whacks at public sector pensions. I’m sure that’ll do more than enough to earn the favor of the Lord’s devout servant PapRox, who totally isn’t exploiting politics as a publicity stunt to raise his personal profile.
Comment by Da Lobsta Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 1:48 pm
@Just Saying
I don’t think anyone doubts that abuse is happening in other denominations. I just doubt the length at which coverups have occurred in those other denominations. The Catholic Church has by far the biggest bureaucratic hierarchy and much of the coverup and continuation of abuse came from that hierarchy that felt that protecting the name of the Church was more important than protecting victimized children. That’s all.
Comment by Ducky LaMoore Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 2:12 pm
As a Catholic who opposes abortion I also oppose attempting to make it illegal under the laws of the secular state. I do not agree that what passed the GA this session was pro-abortion legislation and it compelled no woman to abort a child, the decision to abort remains the woman’s and the sin is ultimately her sin and the judgement for that sin will be in the hands of the Lord on judgement day. Recall what Jesus said : Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s. Matthew 22:21 The separation of the state and church are embedded in the Bible.
Comment by Rod Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 2:18 pm
Paprocki who deflects his own problems. You might want to read this:
Paprocki and pedophiles
Springfield’s bishop has a history
https://illinoistimes.com/article-21168-paprocki-and-pedophiles.html
Comment by jimbo26 Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 2:25 pm
The Catholic Church goes for super minority status.
And perhaps posters can identify the specific sins committed by Madigan and Cullerton? They are not performing abortions themselves. They are simply choosing not to punish those who do. Been a while since confession, but I can’t find that in the 10 commandments.
Comment by Jibba Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 2:29 pm
“The biggest award for church sexual abuse was $37 million against a Lutheran minister in Texas so why does the media only report Catholic allegations?”
How did you learn about that Texas case if the media only report Catholic allegations?
– MrJM
Comment by @misterjayem Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 2:40 pm
Reading this thread caused me to pop a second bag of popcorn. The back and forth is fun
(although I must say that many are sounding more pompous and self-serving than even that bishop)
Comment by I Miss Bentohs Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 2:45 pm
All this gives me pause for considering a Catholic for office.
Comment by oh? Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 2:47 pm
==Lester Holts Mustache If you would do your research before blasting texts you will find my statements true so YES I AM REMINDING YOU==
1. This is patently false, stop repeating nonsense. There have been hundreds of cases where charges have been brought against and/or confessions have been made by catholic priests
2. Pointing to one case against a Lutheran minister or a couple cases against another church does not equate to the, once again, HUNDREDS of cases against catholic priests.
3. These aren’t texts, grandma, they’re posted comments. This is not how texts work
Comment by Lester Holt’s Mustache Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 2:57 pm
Skeptic’s Festivus comment is priceless.
My Protestant Church offers communion to all, no exceptions; Jesus turned no one away, nor does my Church family.
Comment by nadia Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:18 pm
===With a hat tip to Hannah Meisel, Madigan doesn’t even attend church any longer. From February..===
like Joe Biden, Hannah fails to credit WTTW for that little nugget, but to the greater issue, none of this has anything to do with politics. it is about the salvation of their wretched souls. they still have the opportunity to pray for forgiveness and to come into full communion with their Catholic faith.
Comment by Feeder Pig Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:23 pm
The ACLU IL has made the following statement which was quoted in the above article:
“The Speaker and Senator Cullerton deserve deep appreciation for advocating for the fundamental rights of individuals to make their own health care decisions.”
I think this is worth repeating and remembering.
Comment by Enviro Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:27 pm
–but to the greater issue, none of this has anything to do with politics.–
And again, from the Trib.
–Madigan and Cullerton would be allowed to receive the church sacrament again in Springfield if they make a public statement and introduce legislation to repeal the recently passed abortion bill, the bishop said. –
Ignoring that explicit, proposed political horse-trade is dishonest. No one could be so thick as to not recognize it for what it is.
Comment by wordslinger Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:59 pm