Capitol Fax.com - Your Illinois News Radar

Pantagraph: Keep limit at 21

Posted in:

Illinois

* This Pantagraph editorial is attracting some comments in Morning Shorts. I confess to not having read it this morning, but since the comments appeared I decided to take a look…

The group named Choose Responsibility should choose another cause instead of pushing to lower the drinking age from 21 to 18 nationally.

One can argue over how many lives have been saved by having a nationwide drinking age of 21. Clearly, additoinal factors, such as tougher drunken driving and seat-belt use laws have contributed to the decrease in highway deaths.

But raising the drinking age undoubtedly has prevented fatalities on the highways and in other situations where alcohol-impaired judgment can cost lives. […]

Yes, people under 21 are considered adults for such things as signing contracts, getting married, smoking cigarettes and going to war. In some states, under certain circumstances, even someone as young as 14 can get married.

But the drinking age not only protects the individual; it also protects the public.

I graduated from high school while living in Europe (the country formerly known as “West Germany”) and we always joked that the rule there was if you were tall enough to reach the bar you could drink. I returned to the US before my 21st birthday and thought it silly that I was barred here from doing the same thing that I had been doing for years over there.

I can see the logic in raising the age level, but I’m not sure if there’s any real evidence that 21 is the proper age to allow people to start drinking. It seems sorta random to me.

Thoughts?

posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 10:10 am

Comments

We here in Illinois take great pride in not trusting our teenagers(*). We say what video games they can and can’t play, where and what kind of tattoos they can get, how big their backpacks should be, how many people they can have in their cars under what conditions, when they can drive etc.

That being said, I think it is very inconsistent to lower the drinking age to 18.

The only thing worse than political overlords marching us around telling us what we can and can’t do it political overlords marching us around telling us what we can and can’t do and being inconsistent about it.

(*) except in the case of abortion, any teen is mature and responsible enough to make that decision on their own.

Comment by Johnny USA Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 10:16 am
I don’t know. I guess it’s not that important to me since I don’t really drink. I have no great interest in it. Never mind what the age limit is, those under 21 or even under 18 will attempt to circumvent the legal age limit. And someone will help them.

If you want to argue that it saves lives. I think that’s debateable. I think there are better ways to save lives on the roads than to attach age limits to drinking. No matter how old or young of a fool you are, someone is going to get behind the wheel of a car drunk.

Comment by Levois Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 10:35 am
If one can die for one’s country, one can vote, and one can drive a car at the age of 18, one should be able to drink also.

Further Rich, I would like to hear your recollections of youths drinking in Europe. For me, drinking when I was underage was a bit of a “thrill” as I felt like I was breaking the law, and at college I saw lots of binge drinking by those under 21.

In my European travels, I have seen people under 21 drink and they are not acting like drunk louts.

Comment by Fire Ron Guenther Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 10:35 am
The only thing I can add is that I grew up in a State that allowed 18 year old people to drink. They did all the usual stupid things as kids do.

I came to Illinois where the the drinking age was 21. At 21 the kids did the same stupid things as the 18 year old kids but three years later.

All the law did was postpone the same stupid behavior for 3 years.

Comment by Papa Legba Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 10:41 am
At the last New Hampshire debate involving the Democratic candidates, one of the audience questions concerned lowering the drinking age. As it was read, the students at Dartmouth cheered it in agreement, but their enthusiasm was short lived. The idea was roundly snuffed by all the candidates except for the doddering dodoes of Gravel and Kucinich, pandering for applause. The idea wasn’t even given a modicum of respect from any of the real candidates.

It is unrealistic to expect any support for this. There isn’t enough good reasons to support it, if we can even come up with ONE GOOD reason to do it. 21 is an arbitrary age, but if we are to create an arbitrary age, it is a fair one to choose.

We have read within recent years of college students drinking themselves to death. This was unheard of a generation ago. With mobile camera phones, and YouTube, we are seeing a new level of risk behavior injuring young people around the world. If you though peer pressure was tough at a house Frat party, you should feel the pressure when it goes live online and documented for posterity. A visit to a college kegger today would embarrass Bacchus and Eros.

The idea of lowering the drinking age to 18 is simply insane and dangerous for all.

I went to school in Germany too. There is a cultural difference. We had a saying at the University too, “only Americans don’t know how to drink”. Germans usually don’t drive. They are taught how to drink and to see beer as a food product, not as a toy to get drunk on. It is OK to be drunk, but not to be a drunkard. It is never OK to have hangovers or to vomit everywhere. In Germany, this is considered childish and embarrassing.

German culture usually reigns in the deadly behavior we are seeing on US campuses. Beer is something nearly everyone drinks in Germany. Drinking is not a sign of rebellion or independance there. In the US, drinking is seen differently. “Tastes great - less filling”, so goes the famous Miller Lite commercial. In Germany you drink real beer, not lite beer designed to allow you to drink more and get drunk harder. Light beers are an American bastardization of beer so that young people unfamiliar with the taste of beer, or young people who do not like the taste of beer can still be a part of a party and get drunk too. Germans wouldn’t be caught dead with a light beer; German brands make light beer for the US market only.

In the US, young people think being drunk is entertaining and funny. In Germany, young people think this behavior is embarrassing and funny. There is a big difference. We all would rather be laughed with, than laughed at.

I had to tell all incoming freshman at my German university how to drink appropriately in Germany. I got the phone calls the next morning when English speaking students showed up ripped and vomiting the night before. Too often these students didn’t recognize that it was only they who made spectacles of themselves and that their German friends were snickering behind their backs at their boorish behavior.

Keep it at 21 and keep it off campuses.

Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 10:42 am
Johnny U: I disagree…however, you raised an interesting point.

When I was a kid, no one had backpacks. School was for learning, not walking around hunched over like a turtle. I still do not see the importance of homework at that level.

No kid would have even considered a tattoo.

And, if anyone wore a helmet riding a bike, they would have been ensured a head injury from the other kids who would have beat the stuffing out of them for donning such ridiculous headgear.

Comment by Van Halen Reunion Tour Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 10:46 am
In this “age of entitlement” drinking laws carry little weight with teens or the parents of teens. Alcohol and drug abuse will continue to run rampant no matter how many laws are passed. Laws passed to save people from themselves will never be popular or followed by those who choose to hurt themselves. Unfortunately, their self-destructive behavior frequently hurts innocent others. Alcohol/drugs do not kill people. People kill people.

Comment by Patriot Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 10:49 am
I can see how people think there is a randomness to the age chosen. But if you think, at 18 you just about graduate from highschool a time when peer pressure is at it’s highest - you may even be 18 in high school which would make you pretty popular among the masses - my opinion is that 21 is an age that at least you are a few years past the so-called ‘high school years’ where you hope that some percentage of kids have grown up a bit and are able to hopefully handle themselves better when alcohol enters the picture - certainly there will always be those who break the law as freshman and sophomores in college at frat parties or with fake ids - and those who drink to get drunk and act like a goof or vomit and sadly drive - but there are differences between an 18 and 21 year old - and even though the goofs ar still out there who at 21 act 18, in theory you hope that in those 3 years they would be a lttle smarted ad inclined to make even slightly better decisions for themselves and have lived int he real world (or at least at college on their own) for a while to understand they are needing to be responsible… at 18 more or less your parents are still responsible for you.

Comment by annoyed all the time Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 10:55 am
I was 18 years old when the law in my home state changed the drinking age from 18 to 21. One day I was a National Guardsman mature enough to purchase alcohol in a tavern and then the next day I was three years too immature.

Of course, everyone stopped drinking immediately rather than drinking out in the country or down by the river. And after 18-20 yr olds could no longer drink in the bars located within walking distance of their beds, no one ever drove home while loaded.

It was so clear that this was a wise and thoughtful law.

– SCAM

Comment by so-called "Austin Mayor" Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:03 am
Vanilla Man and Rich -

Both excellent points. The attitude towards drinking in this country is actually pretty childish. I think if we don’t treat it as something that is ‘bad,’ there will be less reason to go nuts when you’re underage.

I propose that we set 18 as the age for everything, including driving and drinking. That makes the most sense, you’re an adult, you can make your own decisions and also suffer the consequences of your actions.

Any supposed deaths due to lowering the drinking age will be offset by raising the minimum driving age to 18.

Comment by Super Mega Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:07 am
I went to school where the drinking age was 18. There was not a lot of binge drinking going on, and we looked after each other. I came back home as a 19 year old over christmas break and was legal here, then Jan 1 the age changed to 21 and we were no longer legal. (they didn’t grandfather us) I though it was stupid then as I still do now.

I feel People who are immature and binge drink and do stupid things at 21, would be the same people who do it at 18.

While this no longer affects me, I do believe that if we (the US) need to determine the appropriate age to be determined an ADULT. Even though that could mean not allowing 18 year olds to join the Military until they are 21. Set it and be done. If it is 18, then let 18 year olds drink and be able to join the military. This would remove the age old argument that if you are old enough to defend our country you are old enough to drink

Comment by He makes Ryan Look like a Saint Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:12 am
Vanulla Man: Why did you come back to the US if Germany is so great?

Comment by Van Halen Reunion Tour Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:12 am
I think any 18 year old in the armed services should be able to drink legally, otherwise the rest of them can sneak it like I did.

Comment by Jaded Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:13 am
Lower it to 18 and let college police get back to doing actual crime-fighting.

It is human nature to seek out altered states, whether natural or chemical. Prohibiting young adults from drinking just keeps them from reaching an altered state in a controlled manner and makes the situation more dangerous.

The real problem is that the 18-20 voting block is, by definition, always changing, and so can never get enough clout to earn their rights back.

Comment by Kuz Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:22 am
I too was legal at 18 and the law changed right before I turned 21. But that was back in the day of paper drivers licenses with no pictures….every easily altered.
College kids are drinking at 18 whether it is legal or not. It doesn’t make it right but it is a reality.

Comment by anon Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:42 am
Vanilla Man… you seem to contradict yourself. You go on how the drinking culture in Germany is vastly different than the binge culture here in the U.S…. don’t you think that may be because of the forbiddeness of drinking until 21 and not teaching young people to drink responsibly.

The 21 drinking age is so stupid, arbitrary and insulting. All it does is push young people into hiding when they drinking, which results in more dangerous situations. Does anyone really think that 18-20 year olds don’t drink because its illegal?

If the current policy saves lives… then why not raise the drinking age to 35? Surely 35 year olds are more mature than 21 year olds and we would of course save more lives, right?

Comment by Just Observing Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:47 am
I would recommend a drinking age of 19. This would decrease the likely hood that a high school student was of legal age.

Comment by Leigh Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:52 am
You have to be 21 or older to drive a school bus, enter a casino or be elected to the General Assembly. If being old enough to fight is the issue, then lower the drinking age ONLY for those teens who have joined the armed forces.

Comment by safe & sober Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:55 am
Germany is a stagnant country with a stagnant socialist government. It is so shell-shocked from it’s carnage from the 20th Century it has tied itself up deliberately and no longer trusts itself. It hates surprises. It is determined to disappear within Europe. It’s refusal to take risks keeps it’s economy stagnant. It’s fear of chaos prevents it from embracing change.

America is chaos. Big and out of control. We “fix” everything, even things that don’t need fixing. We are the only top tier country right now having more children and willing to risk everything to make something work. No other culture would create a Disneyland or a Las Vegas. We dream big and have an open door for all willing to call themselves Americans.

Nope - I know why the US is doing greater than Europe. I know why we are succeeding.

Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 12:03 pm
In 1999, New Zealand lowered their drinking age from 20 to 18, giving researchers the golden opportunity to evaluate the impact. In comparing vehicle crash data, they found a 12 percent increase in injuries among 18- to 19-year-olds. Even more interesting, they found a 14 percent increase in injuries for 15- to 17-year-olds, indicating that more alcohol was trickling down from the older teens to the younger teens after the drinking age went down.

It’s too bad that responsible and mature 19-year-olds cannot legally drink, but you have to weigh their inconvenience against the harm caused by the irresponsible older teens who would see to it that alcohol became much more available to the younger ones.

Comment by Youngster Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 12:23 pm
Remember when WI set 18 and IL set 21 as legal age to drink?? Many many 18, 19 + 20 year olds would pile into cars in IL, go north, drink, come back and roll their cars in cornfields, blow red lights at 75mph, killing and hurting lots of people…. if IL is going to lower the age to drink, better hire more police to mop up.

Comment by North of I-80 Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 12:42 pm
In Wisconsin, you can drink with your parents at a bar/eating establishment if you are at least 18. I think this makes the most sense. Also, I might change the law making it legal to drink at 18, but not purchase until you are 21.

That way, if you are in high school, parents can still exercise greater control over whether or not you have access to alcohol, but college students who can legally do all the wonderful things you can do when you are 18 cannot be punished consuming products we know they already consume. Police stations in college towns might face some unemployment or they might work to make communities even better.

Comment by Wisconsin Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 12:46 pm
There is no magic age – hell, I know 45 year olds that act stupid when they drink. But the way the system is now, where at the stroke of midnight on the 21st year enables a person to drink without any education or training is ridiculous.

Put alcohol abuse education in the schools first. Allow 18 - 21 to purchase 3.2 beer only - that way they learn how to drink before becoming 21. As others have commented, the European youth know how to drink and were trained to drink before they came to legal age. This is why abuse is lower in these countries.

Today we require a hunter safety course before being able to hunt - perhaps there should be an alcohol safety course before anyone, 18 or 21, is allowed to purchase alcohol.

Comment by Just a thought Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 12:47 pm
We need an intelligent policy towards alcohol and a flat out ban on all drinking until 21 is simplistic and doesn’t work. It prevents youth from learning how to socialize with alcohol in a safe mature manner. And I think it contributes to problems like binge drinking and drug use. It turns kids away from wine and beer towards hard liquor.

One approach is to have a multi-teir system, kind of like learning permits for driving. As a young child, no alcohol can be given to a child. At a certain age determined by experts (a guess is from 10/12 to 16) it would be considered allowable for parents to provide a glass of wine or beer in a private home. At the next age group (say 16 to 18) they would be allowed to have up to two servings of beer or wine in a restaurant with a parent/guardian. From 18 to 21 they would be allowed to buy and publically consume beer and wine with a limited alcohol content, but would have the right suspended for public drunkness, drunk driving, and other offenses. At 21 (or maybe a little older) they would have full rights including ability to buy hard liquor, unless the rights are suspended due to offenses/crimes. A notation can be made on drivers licenses/ID that the persons drinking rights are suspended.

I would consult with experts in the development of childrens brains to determine the right ages and amounts of alcohol.

Comment by Objective Dem Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 12:50 pm
===I know 45 year olds that act stupid when they drink. ===

Um, are you talking about me? lol

Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 12:58 pm
If I can be convinced that my car insurance rates won’t go up if the drinking age is lowered, then I have no problem with it. That said, it’s not like it’s difficult for those under 21 to get alcohol, just like anything else that’s illegal.

Comment by Kiyoshi Martinez Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 1:16 pm
Wisconsin, you are only partially right… a child in Wisconsin can drink with his parents at ANY age… even in a restaurant. Also, if you are married and your spouse is 21 and you are not, then you can drink legally with your spouse.

For those that say 21 decreases the alcohol related fatalities… then would you support raising the drinking age to 40? Surely if we took alcohol out of the hands of 21 to 39 years olds, far less people would die of alcohol related causes.

An adult should be considered an adult. We shouln’t allow 18 year olds to vote, fight, sign contracts, be tried as and adult, etc., and then not allow them to drink.

Comment by Just Observing Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 1:20 pm
The difference in teen/young adult drinking between Europe and the U.S. is due to cultural differences that probably can’t be duplicated here, except in very tight-knit ethnic communities. Until such time as teenage and college age binge drinking goes out of style in America, the drinking age should stay where it is, with possible exceptions for young adults accompanied by parents or spouses of legal age and young adults in the active duty armed forces.

Comment by Lainer Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 1:32 pm
Rich - Actually I was talking about myself. LOL

Comment by Just a thought Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 1:38 pm
“We need an intelligent policy towards…”

I always laugh when folks start conversations that way! You always know that whatever comes next is some attempt to give their opinion more weight than it ought to have.

We always have intelligent policies in place. Just because you don’t agree with something doesn’t mean it isn’t intelligent. It is just smarter than you, thats all!

Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 1:53 pm
Vanilla Man - The REASON Americans don’t know how to drink and binge drink is because we have made it into such a big deal. If you actually look at the details of Choose Responsibility’s website you would see how they are NOT promoting drinking and driving - they are promoting responsibility. It makes total sense to me. I am even the parent of two teens. Making it illegal to drink only makes it even more enticing. If a person can marry, go to war, adopt etc. they can certainly choose to drink a beer. There should be graduated drinking laws like there are graduated driving laws. The current rules are silly and promote bad behavior.

Comment by Way Northsider Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 2:05 pm
I think it should be lowered to 19, with a phase in period starting around 15 or 16.

That is, it’s legal to get a drink or 2 if you are at a restaurant with your parent(s), such that they can try to teach their kid to drink responsibly.

19 to buy and enter bars without a parent present.

I was already 18 when I graduated high school, so I think we should keep it above high school age, but US laws are so nanny-ish when it comes to kids drinking compared to the civilized world.

Comment by jerry 101 Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 2:05 pm
I will say this, when I was in College you wouldn’t know that there was an age limit for alcohol. As an Residential Assistant (AKA Narc) I dealt frequently with drunk students. For some, they were just as reckless and ignorant on the day after their 21st birthday as they were the day before.

For those people who were mature, I never saw them. They didn’t get loud and they didn’t bother people, so I had no reason to see if they had alcohol. And they weren’t 21 either when they started drinking.

Maybe this is one of those rare instances when we should fight the symptoms and not the disease.

Comment by Chicago Law Student Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 2:07 pm
Why do we binge drink? I don’t know, but who does? If I don’t know, does that mean I have to agree with your reason?

Nu-uh. It doesn’t work like that.

There is no political support sufficient enough to lower the drinking age - thank god.

And isn’t the argument about being old enough to fight in a war and get married, but not old enough to drink is like a kid telling his dad, “Johnny does it, why can’t I?”.

Good reasons people, give me some good reasons to lower the age. Pointing out that you can punch a chad or drive a car has nothing to do with booze.

I stopped using arguments like that when I graduated from high school.

Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 2:36 pm
I should add that if a drinking age exception were to be made for 18-20 year olds in military service, then a service person convicted (in civilian or military court) of providing alcohol to minors should receive less than an honorable discharge when their enlistment is up - meaning they would not qualify for most veteran’s benefits, educational or otherwise. That would discourage any potential abuse of this privilege by service people home on leave whose younger siblings or friends might try to wheedle them into buying booze for the younger ones.

Comment by Lainer Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 3:05 pm
“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one”–Spock.

This seems to be the philosophy of most of the people opposing restoring the ability of the 18-20 crowd to drink. I didn’t realize that was the American philosophy. I thought we were all about the rights of individuals?

For what it’s worth, I grew up in central IL and I drank at home with my family. When I was 8 I was allowed to have seriously diluted wine for special events like Purim and the Seder. At 10, they stopped diluting it, after my Bat Mitzvah (13) I could have a glass of wine or beer with meals. Around 16 I was allowed to drink while watching a ballgame, or hanging with the family. This meant that I found the binge drinking at college to be bizarre as it wasn’t the way I was taught to enjoy alcohol. I don’t believe my parents ever broke the law–the law stated I couldn’t buy alcohol, not that I couldn’t drink it, certainly not in my own home.

Comment by cermak_rd Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 3:23 pm
Cermak - Amen! That’s exactly the way it should be!

Comment by way northsider Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 7:57 pm
I was 18 and just out of HS, when it became legal to drink at that age. It was absolutely awful. By all accounts 18 yr. olds have become less responsible, not more.

There were reasons that the states quickly changed the law back to 21.

Do you really want your 16 yr. old daughter dating an 18 yr. old with a beer in his hand?

Comment by Shelbyville Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 8:46 pm
Shelbyville… the reason all the states are 21 is because the U.S. Government withholds highway funds if you allow 18 drinking age.

Comment by Just Observing Wednesday, Oct 3, 07 @ 11:00 pm
The 21 year age requirement is a holdover from the days when the temperance movement preferred that there simply be a prohibition on alcohol.

Comment by Squideshi Thursday, Oct 4, 07 @ 11:17 am