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Question of the day

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Illinois

* The setup…

At issue is the change of a single word in existing law. The Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act already says teachers “may” have their students observe a moment of silence as “an opportunity for silent prayer or for silent reflection on the anticipated activities of the day.” But Senate Bill 1463 replaces “may” with “shall.”

Earlier this year, the legislation passed the Senate, 58-1, and the House, 86-26. But Blagojevich saw it as raising the specter of enforced school prayer.

The Senate has already overridden the veto. The House is scheduled to vote on it this week.

* Eric Zorn…

“This isn’t about prayer and it’s not about punishing anyone,” [the House sponsor of the bill] said. “We’re just trying to encourage teachers to use this moment at the beginning of the day to get things off to a good start.” […]

Some schools, some classrooms and some students may benefit from the calming effects of a moment of silent thought-gathering as the school day begins. Sure. But others may not need it. They might benefit more from a moment of science, to paraphrase a bumper sticker I saw recently, or from singing a song, or from doing 100 jumping jacks or issuing a group primal scream as the tardy bell rings.

* And Illinois Review…

The fact is setting aside a moment to contemplate the day’s events, to take a deep breath, to repeat a favorite phrase or Scripture or yes, even, say a few words to one’s Best Friend and the King of the Universe, doesn’t threaten our freedoms at all. It gives us a chance to exercise our First Amendment rights.

Question: We had this debate several months ago, but take a look at the stories linked above and discuss what you think of this bill. Should the veto be overridden or not? Also, please explain your rationale.

posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:08 am

Comments

The sponsors of such a foolish law pertaining to a moment of silence is nothing more than pandering to the voters. The lawmakers should be focusing on the important issues and stop this nonsense.

Comment by MOON Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:13 am
Zorn is right. The minute would be better spent doing jumping jacks. This does not have my approval as a father. Schools need to stick to education. Prayer should stay in the home and in church. Period.

Comment by Dad Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:13 am
Override the veto.
Require all students to wear uniforms.
Make them carry a rabbit’s foot.
Require the Ten Commandments to be memorized.
Put “Intelligent Design” into science books.
Make students recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
Make the all learn English.
Raise taxes to pay for everything.
Build a few more casinos for even more luck.

But it won’t matter, will it?

Our education system will continue to faulter as long as we refuse to do what is clearly working so well at our college and university level - COMPETITION!

Forcing children to attend specific schools is so obsolete an idea, it should have ended 40 years ago.

Let them pray - let them do whatever - shoot dice or carry an elf in their pockets - it won’t help our lousy schools sytems quite like competition will.

Comment by VanillaMan Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:16 am
seekHelp Vanilla Man

Comment by Don Kosin Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:18 am
Of course this shouldn’t be a law. This is government at its stupidest.

Comment by Lefty Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:29 am
===Of course this shouldn’t be a law. This is government at its stupidest.===

Explanation, please. Drive-by comments are boring and don’t move anything along.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:32 am
While I don’t intend to get into the debate over moments of silence and what and how children would use them or the intentions of the law to have them use the moment, I did want to comment to ‘dad’ above. Jumping Jacks? Not all children are the small and I would have to go butt heads with my child’s school if they had them start off with such an activity. My little one had ADHD and it’s bad enough on how she starts off her morning now. 15 minutes outside on the playground as the buses arrive, then morning business of attendence, lunch count ect, then off to PE and Art or Music then morning recess hour, then finally into classroom to begin studies. I’d give my high cheers to the classroom teacher if she choose this next several minutes to have silence and reflection.

Just a thought from a parent with a different point of view. It’s not about prayer for me, it’s about gaining and retaining and child’s attention and giving her time to unwind.

Comment by Princeville Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:35 am
The obvious answer is to let local school districts decide. A moment of silence may be a good thing for some classrooms. In other classrooms it might be a time to plot to overthrow the teacher.

I’m speaking from experience as one of the plotter.

Comment by archpundit Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:35 am
Rhonda has not had enough morning coffee, please know ’small’ was to be ’same’

Comment by Princeville Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:37 am
This should be a law! I want the chicken consession when the voodoo priest starts the day with a ritual. It might also help the cafeteria offerings.

Comment by Enemy of the State Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:42 am
Here’s a challenge:

- Either require prayer in the classrooms as you are REALLY trying to do with this law,

OR

- Mandate by law that teachers do the following things:

- Ask kids to raise their hands before speaking
- Collect homework at the beginning of class
- Have all kids possess a number 2 pencil
- Make their kids walk in a double straight line in the hall, using the buddy system
- etc.

Anything else would be hypocritical.

There is no point to a moment of silence law except to encourage (or require) prayer at school. If you are OK with that, then vote for it. If not, then don’t vote for it.

But don’t put up a facade that this is just to get kids to be quiet, and get them off to a good start to the day.

Comment by GoBearsss Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:47 am
A rare moment indeed: Gov. Blagojevich makes the right call! This is so blatant an attempt to force prayer in public schools that the over/under on the Illinois Supreme Court’s rejection of it should be 5 minutes after opening arguments.

But let’s say, for the sake of discussion, that the veto is overridden. How now, Oak Lawn, when Muslim students avail themselves of this moment of “reflection” by praying in their way?

Sustain what little sanity remains in this state’s governance. Sustain the veto.

Comment by Nort'sider Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:48 am
DOes it really matter? Can’t anyone take a moment of silence if they want? I agree with the first commentor, it pandering to the voters, (although i will probably use this in a mailer to hard Rs next election). Personally I think its an exercise of our first amendment, that could be exercised by anyone at anytime. Yes, I know, this provides an established forum to exercise the right, right? Reguarless, we need funding reform in Illinois, WAY more important than a moment of silence.

Comment by Moderate REpub Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 10:57 am
Rich, I don’t know what the exact number is anymore, but over the entire 12 years of a public school education, this amounts to about 32 HOURS SPENT OBSERVING A MOMENT OF SILENCE.

Let kids enjoy a moment of silence during recess, if they want. Heck, that’s what recess is actually designed for.

Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:03 am
Do the supporters of this bill really see it as anything else but a back door run at prayer in schools? I sincerely doubt if this measure was intended to promote “meditation” in our schools.

It is a troubling aspect that the Religious Right in this country just will not stop in their myopia. I watched a program on a religious channel the other night that seriously tried to promote the idea - based on “scientific evidence” (more like outright distortions of evidence) - that dinosaurs co-existed with humans in the past, and were killed off by Noah’s Flood. After I was done chuckling, it angered me that so many might buy that nonsense.

This country needs to get real, before the rest of the world passes us by like a sports car.

Comment by Anon Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:06 am
Maybe instead of forcing teachers and students to “take a moment to reflect,” the General Assembly out to take a moment at the start of each day during session to reflect on the status of our public education system in Illinois. Maybe if we all pray and reflect long enough on this problem it’ll go away.

Comment by Kiyoshi Martinez Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:11 am
The bill’s chief sponsors are hardly right-wingers. Will Davis, for example, got a 5% on the conservative United Republican Fund’s Legislative Scorecard. The only bill Davis got right in the URF eyes is this silent prayer bill.

Kim Lightford scored a 10% on the URF scorecard. So it’s hard to plausibly blame the “religious right” for this one.

Comment by bi-partisan Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:14 am
I am so tired of politicians going into an election year pandering to the religious right. The hypocrisy of their arguments are getting old, they don’t want to have anyone else’s beliefs forced on them, yet they are the first ones out of the gate to force theirs on everyone else. As dirty as I feel saying this, I’m with Rod on this one, this needed to be vetoed, and that veto needs to be maintained.

Comment by FormerRepo Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:15 am
Anon 11:06,

The Religious Right did not pass this out of the state Senate with a 58-1 vote, nor did it pass it out of the House with an 86-26 vote. Whole lot of politicians with absolutely no connection to the Religious Right voted for this (many because it makes them look good to their constituents AND because they knew the governor would veto).

Having said that, an override would be the wrong thing to do. Schools are for secular education. Churches and homes are for religious and spiritual education.

Students have plenty of time during the school day to pray or reflect on their own. They don’t need a distinct time set aside by state law (for goodness sakes!) in order to do either.

Comment by Fan of the Game Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:18 am
Good to know with CTA doomsday approaching that the legislature is spending it’s time productively. Let’s invoke the golden rule: if you were, say, an athiest kid in a rural religious downstate town and there was this daily ritual, do you think you’d be uncomfortable? Would it change your answer if you add to that scenario that you already were routinely mocked/bullied/whatever for your religious beliefs? The answer would guide my response to the override.

Comment by lake county democrat Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:23 am
“Former Repo” claims the bill is pandering to the religious right. He needs to explain why Democrats in safe districts, such as Davis and Lightford, have any need to pander to the religious right.

Comment by bi-partisan Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:24 am
I don’t think it overly matters. I prefer should because it is a decision best made at the local level of government.

I don’t think it’s really going to be used for prayer very much. Stats show that the number of non-Christians are growing, especially in the demographic group actually sending children to the schools. As long as the children are allowed to meditate, draw, read or do any other quiet activities and no formal or informal pressure on the children to actually acknowledge a deity or deities is brought to bear on the students, I don’t know that there would be a Constitutional issue there.

Comment by cermak_rd Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:34 am
The sponsors are pandering (maybe they hope to improve their scores with the religious right). Those who voted for it did so because they knew it was a set up; any no vote would be used as a bludgeon in the next election.

If, as the sponsors claim, a moment of silence/quiet reflection (or whatever) is helpful at the start of the day, the teacher will have one. It’s permitted law or no law.

Why does this get all the attention? Because it is much easier than raising taxes to properly fund the school system. Stop wasting time on meaningless legislation and provide some real help to teachers. How about a fund to reimburse teachers for all the personal $$$ they spend on their classroom and on instructional materials?

Comment by Pot calling kettle Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:34 am
This seems to be a “soapbox” moment for some of our officials who want to look like they have a moralistic approach to law and governance.

I mean…

… Do we really need a law to tell our young people to reflect on the things that are ahead of you this day? Isn’t that what’s suppose to happen at home over the breakfast table?? Or before your children walk out the door?

It seems more and more that laws are being enacted to compensate for “parenting.” No?

Comment by YouNeverSawMe Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:45 am
This obviously doesn’t fit in with the outmoded “right vs. left” description of politics. Try to update your outlooks a bit. Thanks.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:46 am
Who cares? It is just one more mandate that is supposed to “improve” a situation that has no real teeth or outcome. Are districts going to fire teachers because the moment of silence averages 45 secs not 60? Who is going to do all this checking? For some classes singing a song is far better than quiet preparation. How many 9 years olds are going to contemplate their homework? Please. Butt out of local districts and let them follow their own process. This was a easy, pandering “I tried” vote for the next election cycle propoganda.

Comment by zatoichi Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:49 am
I propose a “cap and trade” system for moments of silence, like the system proposed for emissions caps to stem global warming. Under this system, each child would be allocated a moment of silence, but they would be free to trade those moments to other children. A child who had especialy long prayers might barter a jelly sandwhich at lunchtime for an extrea five minutes. An alternative would be to auction off the silence, as the FCC auctions off spectrum. I’m thinking the spot market in silence would be very active during, e.g., math class, when the ability to not answer might be particularly valuable. The trading could be carried out in real time over cell phones and PDAs.

These policy initiatives brought to you by the antihistamine marketing board, “Promoting a woozier world today!”

I gotta go lie down.

Comment by Muskrat Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:57 am
This is a waste of time, and hypocritical. I lean more towards Zorn. Of not it discrminates against a number of religions which do not use “silent” prayer to communicate. There are a number of relgions which use chanting or other verbalization in order to effectuate proper prayer. Several also require the person to face a certain direction, and or kneel etc. So it only allows students who follow a religion which uses silent prayer to excercise their religion.

it is also a waste of time. In the US struggle with basic education, and now we have teachers standing around, getting paid, to be silent. Are we going to see students kicked out of school on zero tolerance policies for violating state law if they make a noise during the moment of silence.

I doubt this law is even constitutional, what a waste of time. The GA wasted time drafting it and passing it, and the State will waste money defending the lawsuits.

Comment by Ghost Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 12:04 pm
OK, I feel better now.

I wouldn’t vote to impose a moment of silence. IMO it simply teaches children about their differences. Mandatory calculus, on the other hand, might actually improve our students’ ability to go to college and compete in a global economy. Funny that nobody wants to impose a moment of actual teaching…

Comment by 47th Ward Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 12:08 pm
I don’t think the Governor’s veto should be overridden. Public school students shouldn’t have a mandatory moment of silence or prayer. They can always do that on their own time or it could also be at the discretion of their teachers. That I’m for but not a legally mandated moment of silence.

Comment by Levois Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 12:14 pm
Well actually, 47th Ward, I really don’t think it’s such a bad idea to teach younger school children about differences and having tolerance for different cultures ect, especially condsidering the diverse society these children are going to grow up in and hopefully function well in–but that really doesn’t have a lot to do have a moment of silence. Teaching our children about differences should be right up there with the bully programs the schools promote.

Who cares if a children wishes to pray during their moment and gets up and chants around as long as the child is actually following his fashion of prayer and not just chanting for an earlier lunch hour, who cares if another child chooses instead to braid her hair. It’s their moment and how they choose to use it will be something the teacher/school can not nor should not enforce.

Comment by Princeville Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 12:28 pm
This is not a “left” or “right” issue in the classic sense. But let’s face facts: the Black Caucus represents its constituency. And that constituency is very conservative on certain social issues - primarily those revolving around religion. The church is a central touchstone in the African American experience. It has clout, and can swing elections. It is irrelevant to the prayer in school issue that Rep. Davis and Sen. Lightford scored poorly on some right-wing scorecard. Still, these legislators choices are political and understandable - not this type of pandering at the expense of other people’s beliefs is praiseworthy.

What is more troubling are those legislators who do not have powerful churches to answer to, who choose to support this silly piece of legislation. Those religious fanatics who consistently tout their rights under the First Amendment also consistently fail to recognize that the First Amendment not only guarantees freedom of religion, but also PROHIBITS the establishment of religion. This “moment of silence” is the camel’s nose under the tent of the Establishment Clause, and should be defeated.

Comment by phocion Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 12:34 pm
I apologize, Mr. Miller. I thought I just was supposed to answer the question. I didn’t know verbosity gets brownie points here.

Why This Legislation is Stupid

by Lefty

This legislation is similar to the Moveon.org vote in the Senate a little while ago. Very few of our “leaders” will stand up and call stupid legislation and resolutions stupid. It is easier for them to go along with the stupidity for various reasons:

1) They don’t think their constituents are smart enough to understand a “no” vote;

2) They don’t think that the vote matters anyway;

3) They think that siding with a toothless law/resolution will help their positions with people who care about these stupid matters while not (they think) causing any real harm.

Zorn is covering the Pledge of Allegiance “law” over at his place. It’s the same thing, and the glaring absence of compliance, enforcement, and any measurable positive effect should be a 2×4 to the head of the goofballs voting to enact the moment of silence/prayer/giggling/note-passing law. But instead we’ll get more stupidity.

So we have the Pledge requirement and the silence requirement. But wait: no music! Next year: legislation to mandate “My Country ‘Tis of Thee” to follow the silence. Who’d be against that?

BTW, this is the only matter that Blago has handled appropriately in the last 2 years. He took a strong position on a matter in the face of apparent widespread opposition and candidly explained why.

Comment by Lefty Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 12:42 pm
So let’s see how this would work.
Teacher: OK, let’s have a moment of silence.
Student: What are we supposed to do?
Teacher: You can pray, think about the day, organize your thoughts, whatever you want.
Student: Are you going to pray?
Teacher: Ummmmm. No.
Student: Why not?
Teacher: Ummmmmm.

That student then goes home and tells mom and dad that their teacher doesn’t pray. Those parents immediately log onto Illinois political blogs and denounce the godless public education system, write letters to the editor and go to school board meetings demanding their Jesus-hating teacher be fired.

From math to physical education to learning how to properly use flavored condums handed out by Planned Parenthood, there are just so many better things our students could be doing with that time.

Comment by Seersucker Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 12:49 pm
Remember the bill that was floated around last year about schools enforcing “hand washing?”

Am I the only person who sees the similarities?

Comment by YouNeverSawMe Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 1:41 pm
At a time of budget crises to risk the costs of ligitation seem a little foolish. I think there is a reasonable chance the federal court’s find it unconstitutional and the state ends up paying the costs of litigation. Maybe the legislator’s will be willing to contribute from their salaries. It’s great to waste someone elses money for their political agendas

Comment by howdy Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 1:58 pm
I’m am not a religious person. In fact I find it very hard to believe. But,I also see the social positives with giving your children a religious moral foundation.
Most of the comments here sound very angry. Sure there are rightwing religious nuts, as their are leftwing crazies. Don’t through out the baby with the bath water.
Kids need moral direction. As we all see every day with all the crime, this is absent in most families. I remember as a child sins I would never commit for fear of burning in hell. Kids now days could use a little bit of that fear.
Why do people get all crazy about religion ? It’s not freedom from, it’s freedom of. And it’s a moment of silence. They don’t have to participate.
Chill out.

Comment by Lula May Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 2:19 pm
I was in the gallery of the House when they passed this. My thoughts at the time were: 1) Isn’t there something more important? 2) You would have to be politically insane to vote “No” 3) Isn’t there something more important? 4) Teachers can already do this, if they want to. 5) Isn’t there something more important? 6) Given enough time, will these guys legislate how every minute of the school day is spent? 7) Why aren’t they spending this time fixing the pension system, fixing the school funding formula, passing a capitol bill, reinstating funding for the DNR, etc?

Comment by Pot calling kettle Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 2:39 pm
I almost became a Libertarian that day.

Comment by Pot calling kettle Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 2:40 pm
I agree with Lula Mae. Chill out people. This is a moment of silence this isnt the teacher reciting a religious prayer. Also, the way the law is currently written is the teacher “may” have a moment of silence and the children need not participate. So what if the teacher doesn’t want to have a moment of silence, even though it would benefit the kids? Last time I checked this should be about the children. The teacher should do it and if the children don’t want to participate they don’t have to.

Comment by Anon 1 Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 3:53 pm
I don’t have a problem with the override. If it fails, I won’t lose any sleep. I think it is a non-issue. However, any legislator who says this violates the separation of church and state when they open every session of the General Assembly with a prayer is being hypocritical.

Comment by Jaded Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 4:07 pm
If there needs to be a law, which I doubt, it should simply allow for “the moment of silence”. However, community standards or preferences should determine if there is one. Interesting that only “a” moment is felt necessary to get their thoughts in order. Takes me better than an hour and over a half pot of coffee to get there. But I do find it mandatory!

Comment by A Citizen Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 4:22 pm
Time to move to a different state. They can’t even get the Education BIMP bill out of committee to actually send money to schools, but they can pass a law requiring the teachers to do something that has nothing to do with education and everything to do with politics. When I listed to Black and Lang oppose the override I really thought the members would pay attention, use their heads, and see how silly this is. Then when I saw the vote totals I realized that logic has totally left Springfield. (As if the past 6 months wasn’t enough to already convince me of that.) I know we’re not supposed to swear here… so a#$*&(&*%*($#&(*#&$(*&%(*&#$(*&

Comment by PJ Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 5:05 pm
So how did Mike Madigan vote?

Comment by lake county democrat Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 5:44 pm
Budget… no
Education reform… nothing

Washing hands at school and “moment of silence”… Easy pass!

God bless, Springfield… PLEASE!

Comment by YouNeverSawMe Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 5:51 pm
Anon 1,

I don’t believe that the argument has been constrained to simply an issue of prayer or a moment of silence. Some are arguing that it’s unnecessary legislation that has been slated for what some feel are the wrong reasons.

To take it a step further, it seems to be another piece of legisation that is almost impossible to monitor and therefore enforce, though same would never stop some parents from arguing about it if they feel there’s an instance of non-compliance.

Therefore, some of us are very much considering the children–by opposing it.

Imagine a small child who is unaware that the moment of silence is even grounded in legislation and is unfortunately placed in a position where an adult starts complaining that the law is being broken.

The child’s first reaction may be fear, believing that s/he somehow contributed to breaking the law. Furthermore, you can’t be sure that the child has access to someone who will even be able to explain the circumstances to calm his or her fears.

To that child, the classroom is now a very uncomfortable environment where s/he feels he’s done something very bad, which obviously is not conducive to learning or overall well-being.

Therefore, why make the environment any more complex than it already is by exposing our children to more unnecessary legislation?

Comment by Anon, too Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 7:19 pm
I’ll follow up my last post with another piece of legislation that directly affected the children in my Village.

I live in an area where very few children rode without helmuts even before the bicycle helmut law was passed. Many on our police force were opposed to the legislation because they didn’t want to enforce it.

However, “forced” to do so, the police eventually began “ticketing” the little ones who did not have helmuts. To lessen the negative impact on those who were “brought in”, there was a raffle at the end of the first year for a new bike.
Only those who had received tickets were allowed to participate.

Obviously, some parents felt that children were now learning that crime could pay…all thanks to legislation that was passed to address an almost non-existent issue in our area and one that probably could have been dealt with more effectively…perhaps through education and at home.

Comment by Anon, too Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 7:40 pm
Is there anything now preventing schools or individual teachers from observing a moment of silence? If not, is the GA solving a problem that doesn’t exist? Having said that, despite the fact that I am at heart a civil libertarian and a very strong believer in the separation of church and state, this is much ado about nothing. It’s a moment of silence, people.

Comment by steve schnorf Thursday, Oct 11, 07 @ 11:32 pm
Teachers “shall” have their students observe a moment of silence.

Each time we see the word “shall” in a new law, we as citizens should seriously question our reps. With each new issuance using that word, we are losing ground on freedom.

In this case I find it laughable that reps are creating something that would be impossible to enforce with any kind of consistency, but I suppose it reflects the “do-gooder” mentality that they can legislate morality to us all.

Regardless of that, this law is yet another potential infringement on our rights as free U.S. citizens and it scares me to death.

We already have hundreds of laws that could or should be abolished; adding more to that list accomplishes little more than instill more fear and doubt into the already-callused mind of the average voter. Small wonder only 30% of us bother to vote in the first place….

PS welcome to Russia

Comment by Another scary law Friday, Oct 12, 07 @ 8:42 am
Well said, Another scary law!

Comment by Anon, too Friday, Oct 12, 07 @ 5:55 pm
How long is a moment, anyway?

Comment by NoGiftsPlease Friday, Oct 12, 07 @ 7:03 pm