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* Press release…
State Representative Mark Batinick (R-Plainfield) has filed legislation aimed at keeping Illinois students in state for college. The bill, HB4088, would create the Rewarding Excellence with Higher Education Guaranteed Admissions Act and grant admission to any state university for any student that scores in the top 10% on either the ACT or SAT.
Representative Batinick filed this legislation after hearing about too many students in his own community who received high test scores, yet were denied admission to Illinois’ own universities. “We have great schools here, and we should be creating better opportunities for our best students so they can stay in Illinois,” Rep. Batinick said. “The future lies in our younger population. If we are going to help turn our state around, we need to take a closer look at our admissions to our state schools.”
According to the Board of Higher Education, 48.4% of Illinois graduates who enroll in four-year institution go to school out of state—a number that has nearly doubled since 2002.
“Too many of our brightest students are leaving for better opportunities in other states,” Batinick continued. “When students leave Illinois, a large percentage of them do not return. Our most precious resource is our educated youth and we must reverse this trend.”
HB4088 is currently in the Rules Committee in the House of Representatives awaiting further consideration.
* Press release…
Serious animal abusers who kill a pet could soon face more serious charges and punishment, due to legislation filed by State Senator Steve McClure (R-Springfield).
“Illinois law treats a criminal who abuses and kills someone’s pet the same as someone who commits a second retail theft,” said McClure. “If someone walks into a public bar and slaps another person without their permission, it is the same level of crime as when someone takes another’s pet, violently tortures it for hours, and then kills it,” said McClure.
Under current law, aggravated abuse of a companion animal or pet is a Class 4 felony. Senator McClure’s legislation, SB2995, would make the offense a more serious Class 2 felony if the abuse leads to the death of the pet. A second or subsequent offense would be an even more serious Class 1 felony. The legislation would not include cases of self-defense or instances where a pet is euthanized.
“When I was an assistant state’s attorney, I prosecuted several terrible animal abuse cases. Many serial killers start off by torturing and then killing defenseless pets,” said Senator McClure. “We need to take the abuse and killing of pets seriously to not only protect them, but also to protect the public from people who may commit more horrific offenses on people in the future.”
Senator McClure noted the large number of recent cases of animal cruelty, abuse, and neglect as signs that more action needs to be taken. “This legislation should put animal abusers on notice. If you murder a pet, you will be punished,” said Senator McClure. “I look forward to working with my colleagues to pass this bipartisan legislation into law.”
* Press release…
Several Democratic members of the newly formed Senate Special Committee on Public Safety met in Chicago today to unveil their public safety priorities for this year’s legislative session.
State Senator Robert Peters (D-Chicago), who will chair the committee, spoke of his past legislative accomplishments and how they motivate him to continue that fight.
“I’ve dedicated my adult life toward the fight to reimagine and to win real safety and justice, and last year I passed several laws with this goal in mind, including one to abolish private detention centers,” Peters said. “I’m thrilled to have the opportunity to personally head up the Special Committee on Public Safety, and I am confident that the committee will lead to a society that is fair, equitable, just and, most importantly, safe.”
State Senator Celina Villanueva (D-Chicago), who was appointed to the Senate earlier this month, also spoke at the press conference and talked of the disproportionate targeting of communities of color and the school-to-prison pipeline.
“Right now we have a criminal justice system that lacks justice,” Villanueva said. “In our current system, working class people of color are subject to harsher sentencing, higher bail and increased surveillance by law enforcement. With these oppressive structures in place, true justice cannot exist. We must fundamentally change the way Illinois deals with criminal justice issues and ensure that these systemic inequities are corrected.”
Also present was State Senator Ram Villivalam (D-Chicago), who discussed inequity based on income and class discrepancies and the prevalence of recidivism for former inmates.
“Too much of our system is focused on knocking people down rather than building them up,” Villivalam said. “Our current criminal justice isn’t equitable; it punishes people for being poor.”
State Senator Laura Fine (D-Glenview) focused on the need to treat inmates with dignity in order to guarantee safety and justice.
“The problems in our criminal justice system harm not only those who are incarcerated, but also their families and communities,” Fine said. “The first step toward fixing those problems is changing the way we work with incarcerated individuals—we must focus on reforms that protect fundamental human rights and dignity both during and after their time in prison so they can lead successful personal and family lives after incarceration.”
The Senate Special Committee on Public Safety will be tasked with hearing a number of measures, including one to put a stop to cash bail.
posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 11:42 am
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Top 10% in the nation or the state or the school?
I’d support any of the three but it makes a big difference.
Comment by Seats Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 11:44 am
The best way to keep kids going to Illinois schools…..is to have quality Illinois schools. Instead of fixing a symptom of the problem, we should focus on fixing the underlying problem.
Comment by Just Me 2 Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 11:46 am
top 10% of the nation taking the test
Comment by Ravenswood Right Winger Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 11:47 am
=== “Too many of our brightest students are leaving for better opportunities in other states,” Batinick continued. “When students leave Illinois, a large percentage of them do not return. Our most precious resource is our educated youth and we must reverse this trend.”===
(Sigh)
This is a good bill, but it’s not even close to answering the problem.
Those 10% students are getting offered merit based scholarships.
Why pay for an education when you’re in the top 10% when universities are offering free education for you eisewhere.
Those students are not coming back, in many cases.
They leave with no student debt too.
Good bill, doesn’t solve much, but… “Ok”….
Ugh.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 11:48 am
It irks me to no end that all of the plans to entice Illinois students to in-state universities are aimed at the top academic achievers. What about the kid who squeaks through high school with a straight “C” average? Aren’t they worthy enough for the scholarships?
The high achievers are showered with scholarships. While the “C” average kids struggle to cobble together the funds for college.
Comment by Huh? Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 11:50 am
I don’t buy it that he knows a student with those test scores who could not get into any state school. The likely complaint is that they cannot automatically get into the UI Engineering College, and entrance to highly selective schools should not be automatic or determined by legislators. Because enrollments are declining at many state schools, someone will happily take those kids not accepted by UI. They just don’t want to go.
Comment by Simple Simon Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 11:51 am
=== The high achievers are showered with scholarships. While the “C” average kids struggle to cobble together the funds for college.===
They are called “Merit” scholarships.
An academic measure, top “10%”, that’s a measure on performance.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 11:53 am
=== Because enrollments are declining at many state schools, someone will happily take those kids not accepted by UI. They just don’t want to go.===
Those accepted to UIUC are also leaving when merit scholarships are available to keep the student out of college debt.
It’s ironic that folks are worried about the top 10%
If a student is in the top 10% and doesn’t have an offer from a competitive university for a merit scholarship, they are not looking.
Illinois, as a state, isn’t seeing those incentives as troublesome.
That’s the mistake
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 11:56 am
North central college was founded in plainfield. After a short time they relocated to Naperville where they had more support.
Batinick should be more worried about the capricious issuing of no trespass orders against parents in his district who dare to question administration, regarding multiple federal investigations in his district.
Keep in mind the superintendent of his district thought it would be funny to dress up as a Mexican for Halloween. Not poncho villa or anyone in particular. Just a mexican.
Comment by TheInvisibleMan Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:03 pm
–The likely complaint is that they cannot automatically get into the UI Engineering College, and entrance to highly selective schools should not be automatic or determined by legislators.–
Correct. UIUC enrollment is already at an all time high and this year’s enrolled freshman averaged a 3.6 GPA in high school and a 29 on the ACT. Engineering was even higher. Sorry, they just can’t take everybody. Rather than imposing arbitrary mandates on admissions, how about increasing funding so they can admit more in-state students versus high paying out-of-state students, and maybe even give some academic scholarships?
Comment by Ron Burgundy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:04 pm
OW, I agree that total cost and scholarships need improvement, but that is a separate matter. This bill is intended to keep kids here through automatic admission, but high achieving kids are not being denied admission to most schools, some colleges at UI excepted.
Comment by Simple Simon Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:07 pm
Further, the only Illinois state school a student with those scores is not getting into practically automatically as it is would be UIUC. All the more reason to increase its funding if UIUC is the target of this. I agree with others that the top 10% will be fine, it’s the others for whom affordability is an issue we should be more worried about.
Comment by Ron Burgundy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:10 pm
==The likely complaint is that they cannot automatically get into the UI Engineering College, and entrance to highly selective schools should not be automatic or determined by legislators.==
Given the widespread belief that the UI Engineering school grants entrance to high-achieving foreign students over high-achieving Illinois students simply because foreign students have to pay higher tuition rates, I think you’re completely wrong. At least on the politics of it. Whether it’s accurate or not, if Batinick can plausibly claim U of I Engineering rigs the acceptance process to keep out Illinois students (who coincidentally generate less tuition money), it’s a political winner for him.
Comment by Lester Holt’s Mustache Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:10 pm
Someone should inform the representative that more and more colleges/universities are doing away with ACT/SAT tests for admission purposes.
Comment by Retired Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:11 pm
=== but that is a separate matter.===
Tell that to the families and the students.
It’s exactly… the same matter.
=== This bill is intended to keep kids here through automatic admission, but high achieving kids are not being denied admission to most schools, some colleges at UI excepted.===
If a student is in the top 10% and can attend Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, Mizzou, Iowa State… on the school’s dime… or go to NIU… and have to pay…
… it *is* the same exact matter.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:12 pm
===… it’s a political winner for him.===
So in reality it’s a bill that does nothing, but it’s good politics?
Students and families don’t need bills good for Batinick, they need a bill that will actually keep students here.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:15 pm
==attend Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, Mizzou, Iowa State… on the school’s dime… or go to NIU… and have to pay…==
And if they could go to NIU on the state’s dime? Are they choosing a directional over those schools?
Comment by City Zen Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:18 pm
Would more Illinois students attend UI engineering if they were automatically admitted? Certainly. Would more attend NIU, ISU, SIU, or any other school? No. Therefore, automatic admission is not the solution to this problem as a statewide issue. It is specific to UI Engineering. It might be a good political issue, but it is not a good solution. A better solution is as OW says… more state funding to schools and scholarships.
Comment by Simple Simon Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:20 pm
Ummmm…. Someone should clue him in that our state universities are no longer requiring the SAT/ACT for college admission.
Comment by Intheknow Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:25 pm
=== And if they could go to NIU on the state’s dime? Are they choosing a directional over those schools?===
In-state, merit scholarships… won’t matter.
LOL
The cost of schooling, and to be close to home is a mitigating factor.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:25 pm
== Correct. UIUC enrollment is already at an all time high and this year’s enrolled freshman averaged a 3.6 GPA in high school and a 29 on the ACT. Engineering was even higher. Sorry, they just can’t take everybody. ==
My kid had an ACT in the 30s and drove a robot at the world championships and it wasn’t good enough for U of I Engineering. Which is fine, it wasn’t his first choice anyway. Also if I am honest about it looking at it now, I don’t think it would have been a good fit anyway. But I’m not gonna lie, was a bit disappointed that with his academic record it still wasn’t enough for the best state school program in the state.
Virtually every other state school with engineering (not sure about UIC) would have given him merit money to attend.
That being said, it would seem that a state school should have it’s focus on educating state residents to a degree. It’s great you want to have an engineering program with the best and brightest from around the world, but at the end of the day, it is the good people of Illinois subsidizing that. You can argue the larger economic benefits of that, fine, but a state school should value ‘educating its own’ and at times it seems U of I has gone after that while losing focus on residents.
Other states have these sorts of requirements and their higher education programs haven’t fallen into a hole.
Comment by OneMan Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:32 pm
=== You can argue the larger economic benefits of that, fine, but a state school should value ‘educating its own’ and at times it seems U of I has gone after that while losing focus on residents.===
Ball game. Great stuff, perfect.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:36 pm
Re: Batinick. Andre Thapedi had a much more expansive top ten bill, similar to Texas, but it applies to the directional schools. It’s also more than a bill, it’s the law.
http://ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocTypeID=HB&DocNum=26&GAID=15&SessionID=108&LegID=113830
Comment by Precinct Captain Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:37 pm
=== Therefore, automatic admission is not the solution to this problem as a statewide issue.===
A great press pop. A real lacking of what the issues are for students and being an Illinois resident.
It truly doesn’t help as Batinick might think it does, but it’s good politics(?)
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:39 pm
–That being said, it would seem that a state school should have it’s focus on educating state residents to a degree.–
I don’t disagree. That particular program at that one school, however, has become by reputation a national and international showpiece. I would like to see their percentage of in-state students increase, but believe the more well-thought out solution is to increase funding rather than impose a mandate based on test scores, which as others have noted are starting to go the way of the Dodo. I think the goal of increasing the percentage of Illinois students in UIUC Engineering is achievable. Increasing the overall enrollment is not, however. They’ve over 50K as it is. There will unfortunately always be qualified students in those programs that are turned away because supply cannot meet demand.
Comment by Ron Burgundy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 12:40 pm
This is what high achieveing college bound kids are looking for: A school with a highly rated program of their choice– a school that will raise the eyebrows of someone interviewing them for their first job
And that school will either be affordable or, most likely, offer help paying their tuition to lighten the load.
Until UIUC can do #2, it will continue to lose the best students to other highly reputable universities.
Comment by Ano Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 1:17 pm
==Someone should inform the representative that more and more colleges/universities are doing away with ACT/SAT tests for admission purposes.==
That includes NIU. At WIU they are optional.
https://www.northernpublicradio.org/post/niu-no-longer-looking-sat-act-scores
Comment by Bigtwich Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 1:28 pm
The UofI football program is doing its part to move people into Illinois. Out of the recruits announced yesterday - not a single one from Illinois.
Comment by Curious George Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 1:30 pm
At the University of Iowa, the bulk of merit type scholarships are available to Iowa residents, not out of state kids. Always puzzled me why Illinois doesn’t treat it’s own students as prized potential employees over others.
Comment by Ano Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 1:31 pm
My high school senior was recently accepted into U of I Engineering because of his outstanding academic achievements. Of course, no merit scholarship money. I suspect in March he will receive a variety of merit scholarships form neighboring states. He has already stated that he will not attend U of I if that happens.
Comment by Birdseed Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 1:39 pm
=== out of state kids===
For Iowa, their big thing to attract students from Illinois has been the loophole residency they allow, explain, and tout, to attract students like those in Illinois, even those not necessarily ones who could get merit scholarships
Iowa State’s “menu” type merit scholarships are ones awarded upon admission. Cut and dry, you qualify, out of state… “here’s the money we’re giving YOU.
To your point on catering to in-state students, it’s tough to see any “over and above” breaks Illinois students are getting from Illinois public universities.
This top 10% feel good bill isn’t helping Illinois families.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 1:40 pm
=== My high school senior was recently accepted into U of I Engineering because of his outstanding academic achievements. Of course, no merit scholarship money. I suspect in March he will receive a variety of merit scholarships form neighboring states. He has already stated that he will not attend U of I if that happens.===
Ball game.
There a terrible misconception that there are NOT students who are admitted to UIUC, even the engineering program, but don’t go because of merit scholarships.
It’s happening. It’s happening quite a bit.
The snobbery of the UIUC “degree” that folks are missing out… you’d havta show me that… students skipping UIUC, even its engineering school I’m guessing are succeeding fine, with no debt to boot.
- Birdseed -
Congrats to your student, and a wise choice to wait for those offerS. Very smart.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 1:45 pm
–At the University of Iowa, the bulk of merit type scholarships are available to Iowa residents, not out of state kids.–
One difference with Illinois and Iowa is that Illinois has more highly qualified HS students than it can handle, whereas Iowa has far less population and thus far fewer of those same students. Illinois is exporting, Iowa is importing.
Comment by Ron Burgundy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 1:51 pm
=== …more highly qualified HS students than it can handle, whereas Iowa has far less population and thus far fewer of those same students.===
Argumentative, as both Iowa and Iowa State readily admit they are competing against each other for the top of the top in Iowa.
What university is competing, PUBLIC university, with UIUC?
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 1:55 pm
The bill does pretty much nothing to address the core issue of declining higher ed enrollment in Illinois: cost.
Why not give automatic admission to the top 25% or top 50% or anyone who earns a diploma? The impact on enrollment would be pretty much the same.
If you want some college, we have excellent options, all high quality. But, the cost is too high (ie. today’s SIU post “In the last two decades, in-state tuition and fees have increased about 150% at SIUC”). Students wanting to attend higher ed leave for a neighbor or simply stay home because higher ed in Illinois is not affordable.
Other states poach our students with affordability (to those who can travel).
The “fix” involves $$$. We’ll know Batnick is serious when he introduces a bill that fully funds MAP grants and recreates (and funds) the Illinois State Scholarship program and puts the higher ed base operating funds back to where they were in 2000.
Comment by Pot calling kettle Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 2:01 pm
Automatic entry requirements are a challenge for flagship schools, and relying on SAT/ACT score alone is a particular bad metric. Take Texas’ experience with the Top 10% rule. The flagship was swamped by automatic admissions, leaving little room for other students. Lawmakers then moved to having 75% of seats filled by the top 10%, so now they roll up through the top 1%, 2%, etc. until they reach that threshold, now around 6%. That leaves 25% of seats for everyone else - international and out of state students who pay more, students who excel in their professional discipline but are not top 10% of the class, high-achieving students from competitive schools, etc.
From a diversity perspective, the Texas plan at least had the merit of offering admission to the best students from each school, drawing more students from beyond the top suburban schools. Going to top 10% of SAT/ACT scorers doesn’t even have that as an arguable benefit, and would whittle down the seats that remain for students who excelled in their school environment yet did not test as well.
Comment by Wonk Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 2:02 pm
–What university is competing, PUBLIC university, with UIUC?–
I think we’re on the same side and arguing past each other here, Willy. UIUC has no in-state public competition. For most majors they are competing with the Big Ten schools in neighboring states, and private schools like University of Chicago and Northwestern. For Engineering their competition is national - MIT, Berkeley, Cal Tech, Stanford, Purdue, Michigan. Like you I think more money to allow UIUC to not have to balance their books on admissions, and more money to incentivize the best students to stay, is the answer. An honest look at this issue would be simply asking UIUC officials at their budget hearing why they admit so many foreign born students when equally capable Illinois students are available. They’re under oath, so they should provide an honest answer. Diversity is an important goal but it’s not the only reason they are doing it. Legislators should act on that answer and fix the actual underlying problem rather than put up show bills like this.
Comment by Ron Burgundy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 2:05 pm
- Ron Burgundy -
We are indeed on that same side, in that Iowa instance, ignoring the Iowa State factor or numbers must be included in that observation, nothing more.
Agreed, and - Pot calling kettle - crystallizes things even more.
It’s about the money, not the access.
Mr. Batinick’s bill does not address the worries of the 10%, and - Birdseed - ices the cake to the undercurrent not discussed; “admitted, but won’t attend, merit scholarships pending”
If anything - RB -, we’ve covered almost every way the Batinick Bill truly misses and lacks in a solution.
Be well.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 2:11 pm
== Someone should inform the representative that more and more colleges/universities are doing away with ACT/SAT tests for admission purposes.== Some, but not many in my experience as the parent of a college-bound student. And the schools who are luring our Illinois students out of state with hefty merit scholarships are using test scores as well as GPA to make awards. Also, the Common App, which UIUC uses I believe requires test scores.
Comment by Nova Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 3:01 pm
My son was accepted to UIUC (offered nothing but the opportunity to attend) but chose to go to another Big Ten university who offered merit money. UIUC communication was so sparse that he was lured away not only by the merit offerings, but by their attention.
Cost of tuition for us, was the deciding factor. The cost is crippling. Status (or snobbery, whichever you please) only goes so far. In the end, he landed every bit as well as those who went to more prestigious universities. Go figure.
Comment by Ano Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 3:06 pm
- Ano -
If Mr. Batinick has honesty to his bill, you and - Birdseed - are those Mr. Batinick really has no clue what Illinois missed, or could be losing.
There are students, many like your student I’m guessing…
=== In the end, he landed every bit as well as those who went to more prestigious universities. Go figure.===
Exactly right.
Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 3:12 pm
=What university is competing, PUBLIC university, with UIUC?=
That, to me, is the real problem. It’s fine to have one university, UIUC, that has certain world class programs and sky-high admission standards for them. The problem is that the next step down the rung in-state, especially for STEM fields, is a big step down. It isn’t UIUC that needs more funding, it’s the directional that need more funding so they can compete with out-of-state schools.
Comment by phenom_Anon Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 3:30 pm
Also a reminder to the Representative about the history of legislative meddling in UIUC admissions… the very body you are proposing this bill in is the reason there are no more General Assembly scholarships, and UIUC no longer accepts recommendation letters of any kind. Maybe less hands on involvement is better.
Comment by Ron Burgundy Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 3:35 pm
==So in reality it’s a bill that does nothing, but it’s good politics?
Students and families don’t need bills good for Batinick, they need a bill that will actually keep students here.==
Yes. Though I’m sure Batinick wholeheartedly believes that whatever is good for his re-election is also good for students and families. It’s the Alan Dershowitz theory of governing
Comment by Lester Holt’s Mustache Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 4:00 pm
74% of UIUC undergrads are in-state, 56% in Engineering (see https://www.uillinois.edu/data/enrollment). Obviously some folks think that is too low. What is a reasonable goal?
To keep student in state, and to increase college attendance, we should implement a direct admissions program similar to what Idaho has done (https://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/university-illinois/in-direct-admissions-there-s-a-seat-for-you/article_d97b30ce-8076-571c-b2f7-9d0168cde63e.html). Imagine every high school senior getting a letter in the mail saying “You’re In!” and giving them a choice among several schools (open access community colleges, the “slightly selective” directionals, and/or the highly selective schools, depending on their high school grades).
Comment by thechampaignlife Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 4:11 pm
Prior to the Blago administration, employees of all state universities, U of I, NIU, ISU, SIU, WIU, EIU, etc. were all in the group health insurance with every other state employee. The bill for all of them was paid by the state as one big group. Blago changed it to the universities paying for their health insurance to lower the state budget. This caused a sudden, huge increase in tuition and fees at the state schools. Maybe it would be a good idea to change it back to the way it was before. The tuition and fees could then be lowered for ALL potential students.
Comment by DuPage Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 4:42 pm
“Several Democratic members of the newly formed Senate Special Committee on Public Safety met in Chicago today…” I would not consider Sen. Laura Fine a subject matter expert on criminal justice. During the passage of Rep. Brandon Phelps’ concealed carry bill in the house in 2013, she did nothing to address the Duty to Inform w/criminal penalties that Phelps and his sidekick NRA lobbyist Todd Vandermyde stuck in the their bill for the police unions. There’s no requirement that the “officer” asking you if you’re armed be in uniform, it could be a police impersonator like John Gacy. Chris Welch, LaShawn Ford and Will Davis stood against Phelps on the DTI, where was Fine?
Comment by Elmer Keith Thursday, Feb 6, 20 @ 5:32 pm