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Question of the day - Tavern gambling

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Illinois

* First, the setup, from Michael Sneed…

Sneed hears Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart will announce a crackdown on illegal gambling today stemming from raids Wednesday on suburban taverns.

To wit: The raids were on taverns that allegedly made illegal payouts to patrons gambling on video poker machines. The probe is in part the result of a desperate family who claims a loved one lost $60,000 on illegal video poker this year alone.

Upshot: Watch for Dart to urge the General Assembly to oppose casino expansion in Illinois.

* Question: Have you ever played video poker at a tavern? And, do you think such gambling should be legalized? Explain.

posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 10:41 am

Comments

Not only should video poker be legalized, but they should allow card games to be played in bars. Poker is as popular as football and NCAA pools and about as harmless.

Comment by chicago_aces Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 10:49 am
I always see the machines in bars, like in Cicero, Lyons and Berwyn, and i always laugh cause of the “amusement only” signs on them. Then they are given money from the ‘payout drawer” behind the bar.

They are popular, though. people are always playing them. As far as legalizing it, you might as well, since enfocement is so tough anyway.

Comment by pickles!! Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 10:50 am
Yes I have played the video poker machines for “Amusement only”.

The state is loosing a LOT of money by not legalizing and taxing it.

Comment by He makes Ryan Look like a Saint Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 10:52 am
Cook County Sheriff Tom Dart sure is off to a great start! He’s making some smart changes and moves to enhance the reputation of the office and position Dart for higher office (should he be interested).

Comment by There you go again Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:10 am
Video poker games…payoffs to winners? Pinball machines…payoffs to winners? Other games of chance…payoffs to winners?

As Surete Captain Louis Ranault said to Rick in Casablanca, the movie: “I am shocked, do you hear, shocked to find gambling here.” in front of the Gestapo head and while pocketing his winnings/payoff.

There isn’t a ma and pa tavern in the area where the solvency does not depend upon the machines, the punchboards, and the coin operated pool tables where the players bet amongst themselves. And the funny firm which puts the machines in splits the deal with the owner, while (just possibly) they pay off whomever.

Customers buy a lot of beer and drinks while amusing themselves. Tradesmen stop off after work. Others play during the day. No payout, no customers, simple as that. No customers no license and tax revenue for the Counties, the cities and the villages.

Todd Stroger wants some money? Legalize the payouts and increase the license fees. Register every machine and make sure that the payout ratios embedded in the computer cards are at a set percent (95% sounds good, its the turnover that makes money, anyway).

If payouts are legal they can be taxed and the bribe margin can be eliminated.

A local tavern is a great place to go. The man on sccial security can nurse a long neck beer for an hour and the machines enable the owner to keep the prices down.

Desparate family finds a breadwinner has dropped 60 grand. He can lose the same amount at the boats. Usually the local owner takes care of his customers, cashes their paychecks, too. How long did it take for the family to get desparate, anyway?

Put me down as a yes.

Comment by Truthful James Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:10 am
Never played them, but have no qualms about them being “legalized” for payout.

Comment by Fan of the Game Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:12 am
Indiana outlawed the machines this year and created a special gaming police unit to raid taverns that have them, whether or not they pay out.

The crackdown bill was passed at the same time lawmakers allowed Indiana’s two horse tracks to install 2,000 slot machines/electronic games apiece.

Some who voted for both bills claimed they were effecting an overall reduction in gambling.

Comment by Fecal greaseball Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:13 am
There is always talk about legalizing and taxing video poker in bars. The estimates I used to hear were over a Billion in revenue maybe even $1.5 billion the state could bring in. Coin operators always push hard against it (duh). Would go a long way in filling a huge budget hole. Leagalize it!

Comment by Moderate REpub Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:18 am
Legalize them. And leagalize marijuana as well.

Comment by Anon Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:21 am
OK, here’s an idea legalize gambling and let bars have all the gambling they want. They need not have full casinos just have a slot machine or video poker or even just let the boys play cards for money. It’s no whoop!

Comment by Levois Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:22 am
No, I’ve never played them, I’m just not into gambling. Yes, they ought to be legal. Mainly because it would blow a big hole in the Outfit’s finances. Also, having a situation where the cops (and city functionaries) are routinely bribed is no way to create order or preserve disorder. Finally, it’s a matter of simple justice. Why should only the connected and powerful (such as the track owners or boat owners) make money off folks desperate to lose money?

As for the desperate family. He could’ve lost the money playing the boats, betting on the ponies, or internet gambling. He has a problem–get him help for his addiction, don’t just remove the temptations–especially when doing that removes entertainment from people who aren’t addicted. We don’t shut down the bars because some folks are alcoholics.

Comment by cermak_rd Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:23 am
Don’t ya love it when they go after non-crime crimes to keep busy

Comment by DumberThanYouThink Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:25 am
These machines aren’t as harmless as they seem. We too had families urging us to crackdown because a spouse kept gambling away his paycheck. It’s hard to feed your children and pay your mortgage when you do this. How are you going to regulate all the machines to insure that they’re not ripping people off? Remember this isn’t the Boy Scouts running this racket.

Comment by Former Metro East Councilman Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:38 am
===Remember this isn’t the Boy Scouts running this racket.===

Except strict legalization would cut out the outfit.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:41 am
I guess I side with the Puritans on this one.

I like gambling. Playing poker with friends is a great night’s worth of entertainment. We’ve organized Spades tournaments for money, and I know people who do the same for Bridge. Fantasty leagues, NCAA basketball brackets, great stuff.

But I hate casinos, slots, video poker, the lottery, etc. These aren’t games of “chance.” The expected value for the player in all of these things is negative. It’s a mathematical certainty. And it simply preys on people (both poor and rich) that don’t intuitively understand a statistical concept (or for that matter, a business concept). For all of these games, the more you play, the more you are guaranteed to lose. The tavern owners wouldn’t have it any other way, same as the casino owners. Unless the tavern owner is giving you a refund when you’ve lost too much money on his game, he’s not “taking care of his own.”

I haven’t witnessed payouts on pinball machines, but I enjoy playing those and Golden Tee and pool, and other games on their own merits. If me and my friends want to make a side bet, that’s fun and fine. I’m not going to let my friend make a high enough bet in the first place to bankrupt him and destroy his life.

Video poker isn’t anything like actual poker. Without payouts it’s a waste of time, and with payouts, it’s identical to a slot machine. And I don’t think that should be legal.

Comment by Sacks Romana Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:48 am
Bingo, rich. Everything about the history of gambling in this country suggests that organized crime is most compatible with illegal gambling, not legal.

I’ve said it before, but we make illegal political futures, with zero expected loss and real economic purpose, but allow lotteries with 1/3 expected losses.

Comment by Greg Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:50 am
If you object on the basis that too many people waste their money on it, then let’s disallow extended warranties, alcohol, and shorting GOOG.

Comment by Greg Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:56 am
Here we go with mission creep again. But the same logic is there. Government needs revenue and people want to gamble, so where is the problem?

I will suspend my distaste for gambling for a moment and make a case for the small business owner. Why not try to keep the profits in the local neighborhood?

We can dispense with all kinds of insiders ‘investing’ and profiteering from the enterprise, local business will thrive rather than wither with the grand casino concepts, You can apply the same anti-Walmart arguements to keep the money local.

That all being said, the Federal Report on Gambling in thee mid-90s said we already have too many places to gamble. The means after more than 10 years of casino building, we really have too many places to gamble.

Lets suck it up and figure out how to run government more efficiently and live within our means. No new gambling licenses, take the idle one, get it to Chicago, make sure there are no private shareholders so all the profits go to the city and state. Learn to do what every manager in private industry has to do. Accomplish more with less each year.

Comment by plutocrat03 Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 11:59 am
ditto james’ comments.

But if you legalize them, you will need another gaming commission and the paperwork will be so onerous that they will go black market again…

Comment by The Horse Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 12:11 pm
Rich,
there might have been value in splitting the question. For example, yes I have played video poker machines (and other video games) at taverns, but no, I’ve never received a payout.

Comment by steve schnorf Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 12:23 pm
Legalize it, tax it, set aside a portion of the taxes for gambling treatment programs/education.

Comment by God's Country Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 12:48 pm
Never played video poker. No comment on whether I’ve played “closing time roulette,” which was the first thing I thought of when I saw the headline.

Sure, legalize them.

Comment by Muskrat Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 12:57 pm
Here’s an insight about the Illinois smoking ban and private clubs.

If an establishment (bar/restaurant) wants to get around the smoking ban it can switch to being a private club.

Becoming a private club will cost the establishment business, but they can continue to have smoking.

If an establishment is already skirting the smoking ban, why not allow some gambling or bring in strippers a couple nights a month?

I see the smoking ban as having the unintended consequence of expanding informal gambling operations and part-time strip clubs.

Comment by Carl Nyberg Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 1:04 pm
I say yes. I play the games. WHy not legalize. If not, don’t you think Dart has better things to do?

Comment by Yes Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 1:10 pm
How did that answer the question? And no I haven’t played video poker but yes they should legalize it. (I did answer the question)

Comment by to Carl Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 2:16 pm
I’m old enough to remember when Cueto was arrested and jailed in Madison County for his involvement in illegal video poker machines. There were serious allegations of organized crime involvement at the time, from what I recall.

I’m not a regular at the types of taverns that have these machines, but I’ve been in them from time-to-time, and more importantly I know people who are addicted to them.

Look at the dull, listless faces at the folks who sit at these machines for hours on end and then tell me they should be legalized in every neighborhood in Illinois. I don’t think so.

Gambling is a slippery slope for both gamblers and lawmakers. Once they start, its hard to stop. Let’s face it, if the Governor had a shred of fiscal responsibility in his body, we wouldn’t be even talking about expanding gambling today. And if the gambling industry were banned from making campaign contributions, we would have passed education funding reform in 2003.

But, as long as casinos can pad lawmakers pockets, many seem intent on driving our state’s budget into the ditch, just so casinos can come to the rescue.

You can put Emil Jones in that camp. Until recently Emil was a champion of education funding reform, but Emil blocked education funding reform in 2007 and has pushed to expand gambling instead.

Top 50 contributors to Emil and the Senate Democrats in 2005-2006 include:

Arlington Race Track - $87,500
Casino Queen - $25,000
Churchill Downs Inc. - $25,000
Harrahs - $45,000
Penn National Gaming - $40,000

Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 2:56 pm
P.S. Should have offered a Hat Tip to the Illinois Campaign for Political Reform’s Sunshine Project,a handy searchable database.

Keep up the good work, guys.

Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 3:05 pm
I have never played illegal games of chance because I have no idea what the process is, i.e. how do you ask for a payout without looking like a rube or a narc?

Am I over thinking this?

Could some video poker vet clue me in?

– SCAM

Comment by so-called "Austin Mayor" Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 3:29 pm
I like Tom Dart, but come on. How bad of a gambling addict do you have to be to lose $60k on a bar poker machine? Do we really think taking the machines away will stop that guy from gambling??? If anything, the bar should refuse him as a customer and not pay out to him, just as they’re not supposed to serve an obvious drunk. This is nothing more than a law enforcement offical trying to get headlines by “cracking down” on something that doesn’t really need to be crackd down on.

Comment by L.S. Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 4:31 pm
SCAM — These are games of amusement, not games of chance, never forget that.

Second, it is not illegal to play them, it is not illegal to lose your money, it is not illegal to get credits on the gaming screen. For all I know, it is not illegal to stand by the machine and have a player put a coin in your hand and pull the handle (reducing the credit by one on each pull). However, it may be illegal to pay him if that player increases the number of credits. It is illegal if you ask the bartender to pay you back for the credits on the machine, even if they are less than or exactly equal to the coins you have put into the machine.

No matter how long you stare at it, the machine will not pay out any coins.

If you are known at the bar, you may get a payout if you follow proper etiquette. Do not shout out and dance, drawing the attention of everybody in the tavern to your skill and good fortune; there are devils everywhere. Quietly station a friend by the machine (so nobody plays off or uses your credits), sidle up to the bartender/manager, and tell him quietly to take a look at your machine. He will need his special key to run off thr credits. Go sit at the end of the bar. When he comes back, order a drink. When the time is right and the bartender/manager feels safe you will get paid.

Comment by Truthful James Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 4:44 pm
Haven’t played it. Don’t know if it should be legal: seems like if you allow everyone to set up gambling down the block it can undercut the casinos and kill the golden goose. But I can see the argument that it helps stop lost revenue too, so…

Comment by lake county democrat Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 5:06 pm
I walked into a tavern years ago just after a state cop (now retired) had hit a Royal Flush.

Since I was broke in those days, I ordered a draft beer. The bartender said it was free. All drinks would be free as long as the cop was still in the bar because he was spending his winnings on drinks for us lucky duckies.

I immediately switched to top shelf.

Fun night. What I remember of it.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 5:15 pm
Also, FYI, I may have played a tavern machine once or twice, but I’ve never cashed out.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 5:17 pm
They are found in almost every tavern in Southern Il. I even know of one in a gas station,backroom of course! Most will tell you that their profit is made from the machines.

Comment by NIEVA Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 5:32 pm
No, I never played one and I’m not interested in gambling. As far as I can tell, having legalized gambling on riverboat casinos simply ensures that the money is funded to wealthy investors instead of neighborhood pub owners. I think gambling is stupid and I don’t understand how people can be entertained by it, but if it is legal for horse racing and on riverboats (what about all that off-track betting, what’s the difference with that?)I say spread the wealth around. Don’t make it just a way for the rich to get richer.

Comment by NoGiftsPlease Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 7:31 pm
What makes anyone here think that legalizing these games will cut out the outfit entirely?

Comment by CAsablanca-6500 Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 9:05 pm
And please do not forget former Cook County Sheriff Dick Ogilvie’s involvement with these machines.

Comment by CAsablanca-6500 Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 9:08 pm
It should be legalized but with strict limits on how much an individual can bet. I have a relative who lost his arse playing video poker at the local Knights of Columbus. He went bankrupt becaue of his addiction and the greed of the good Catholic boys. They were cashing 5-6 $100 checks for him in a day.
Legalize it to control it.

Comment by Reformed Thursday, Dec 6, 07 @ 9:42 pm