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With Biden move, a big chunk of AFSCME’s argument against mandated vaxing just went out the window

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Illinois

There are other paths the state could follow that would not serve to increase tensions and stress in the way that a hard [vaccination] mandate would do. President Biden laid out such a path last week for most federal government employees: All employees must either be fully vaccinated OR be regularly tested.

The union has cited Biden’s example several times in the past few weeks.

* Today…

President Joe Biden on Thursday will impose more stringent vaccine rules on federal workers by signing an executive order requiring all government employees be vaccinated against Covid-19, with no option of being regularly tested to opt out, according to a source familiar with the plans.

posted by Rich Miller
Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 11:41 am

Comments

Anti-union concern trolls coming in 3,2,1…

It’s not a one size fits all situation, according to some businesses/governments. Vaccination or mandatory regular testing can be an option. Without that, the opposition to a vaccine mandate is not good.

Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 11:45 am
When you’re a labor organization that caters to a minority that refuse to see safety, well-being, and health as a pillar to why labor unions exist… you end up here.

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 11:47 am
It’s not concern trolling to say the “vax or test” option was a bad one. It’s one thing for medical exemptions, it’s another for valid religious ones, but the frequent testing alternative seemed to more or less be a “I just don’t wanna” pick.

Comment by Nick Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 11:48 am
At this point, mandates are the way out of the pandemic. Juliette Kayyem’s writing on this has been very instructive.

Once the vaccines are approved for children, and states and school districts can mandate them for students, we can hope to get to the point where COVID is a background issue, like most other diseases.

Comment by Keyrock Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 11:49 am
I couldn’t go to school until I got my shots.

And that was a long time ago.

There’s no reason I should go to work if I don’t have my shots.

There is no “right” for me — or my physical presence — to endanger others.

AFSCME is on the wrong side of history here — and won’t live this down.

This one’ll stick. Am I anti-union? I’m pro-ending-this-pandemic.

Comment by Mr K Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 11:50 am
“It’s not concern trolling to say”

It is trolling to misrepresent oneself or greatly appear to do so, in order to sow division.

Vax or regular mandatory testing is what some businesses/governments are doing. It is an option. The unacceptable option is the status quo.

Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 11:53 am
The Janus decision has forced public sector unions to play the middle on vaccines. AFSCME especially has a higher level of members that may be in these anti-vax communities or populations. AFSCME and the Trades basically. So without fairshare requirements, unions want to be neutral or seen to support indiviudalism.. Dead members don’t pay dues either though.

Comment by LaborGuy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 11:57 am
It would be much better to lose members for doing the right thing by standing up for health and safety, than it would be to lose members for doing the wrong thing. Also, there’s no reason this should apply only to congregate care settings and there’s no reason to delay that conversation. It takes 5-6 weeks for either of the two dose vaccines to be considered fully vaccinated, every day this gets delayed is significant, get this done today.

Comment by AC Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 11:59 am
==The unacceptable option is the status quo.==

Meh. While the status quo is unacceptable, the unacceptable option to me is allowing a testing opt-out in a vax “mandate.” It lets the willingly unvaxxed off the hook and allows them to continue spreading a deadly plague. They are perhaps the most selfish cohort of Americans to ever exist.

They need consequences. They need to be shunned. This is a start but it isn’t the end. When they’re eliminated from society’s graces - no ball games, no restaurants, no movies, no concerts etc - only then can we get past the pandemic.

Also - I’m vehemently pro-union but now just as vehemently anti-AFSMCE. If you’re a state employee, I encourage you to resign your membership or start a drive to decertify

Comment by Joe Bidenopolous Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:07 pm
AFSCME Council 31 leadership is at the mercy of their membership. The people that run this union at the top are not particularly representative of all of the members throughout the state and certainly not outside of Cook and the collar counties. It’s very difficult to balance the wants and needs of such a diverse group. I don’t envy them.

That said, no one is forcing anti-vaxxer AFSCME members to stay in their jobs. If they feel so strongly about endangering all of us, they can quit. Easy peasy. Others will gladly get vaccinated and take their places in workplaces with strong contracts. The state will go on. It’s time for these types to stop trying to throw around weight they do not have, for the sake of all of us. After all, we’re “stronger together”.

Comment by Now I'm down in it. Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:08 pm
Well said, OW

Comment by H-W Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:09 pm
The problem with the vax OR test option is that it is far, far less effective than a “must vax.” Testing is much more fallible than vax - particularly the home tests. And unless people are quarantining between PCR test day and results day, the tests are even worse. Testing option except for legit medical/religous (and I’d say only medical) is, effectively, a scam and a sop to the anti-vaxxers.

Comment by WestBurbs Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:12 pm
I don’t know why anyone would choose to have regular Covid tests rather than the vaccine. The test I took was extremely unpleasant.

Comment by City Guy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:17 pm
=The problem with the vax OR test option=

The problem is choice. A mandate with any kind of opt-out is not a mandate.

Comment by Joe Bidenopolous Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:18 pm
The Governor needs to follow with an executive order requiring all remaining state agencies (even applying the EO to cover the constitutional officers, boards and commissions) to have all their employees and contractors fully vaccinated. Or be terminated.

Comment by NonAFSCMEStateEmployeeFromChatham Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:23 pm
“If you’re a state employee, I encourage you to resign your membership or start a drive to decertify”

This is one of the dumbest and most destructive things ever posted here. That would neither solve the vaccine problem nor help thousands of workers maintain a higher standard of living.

Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:23 pm
One can’t forget that just a few months ago vaccine mandates were totally off the table, deemed politically unfeasible. Republican states passing laws against “passports” were called political theatre.

Circumstances change. And one of those circumstances is assuming the remaining ~30 percent of the public would get the vaccine quickly enough to really kill the virus.

Comment by Nick Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:25 pm
The way to increase vax rates is to hit people in the wallet. No vax, pay extra health insurance fee to cover added costs of covid care.

Delta Airlines just made the announcement that no vax means $200/month extra coming out of pay check.

Comment by Huh? Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:32 pm
===is to hit people in the wallet===

Getting fired from your job that you cannot replace is a big hit to the wallet.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:34 pm
“…not particularly representative of all of the members throughout the state and certainly not outside of Cook and the collar counties.”

Wait — it’s downstate that’s (most likely) the issue. Not Cook or the Collars (at least with this issue).

I’m guessing anyone in AFSCME from, say, Adams County (heart of the ‘golden triangle’ for deer hunting) is probably as anti-Vax as they come.

Off-topic: it’s also the home (from what I gather) of the little old lady who repeatedly came up to Rauner and told him to “stay strong, stay the course.”

Uh-huh. Ok.

Me? Yep. I was born in Adams County, but I am as pro-Vax as they come.

Comment by Mr K Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:36 pm
Bravo Biden. Mandates are a must if we’re going to quickly tackle the virus and get our economy going again.

Comment by Norseman Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:39 pm
“An injury to one is of no concern to us.”
-AFSCME Council 31, c. 2021

Comment by A State Employee Guy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:42 pm
“No vax, pay extra health insurance fee to cover added costs of covid care.”

Completely agree.

For the record, I support a vaccine mandate or hybrid vax/regular testing requirement at the least—like some businesses and governments have. I believe Pritzker and AFSCME should act right now or very soon. The union said it wants what other unions/governments have. Get it done, already.

Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:43 pm
==I’m guessing anyone in AFSCME from, say, Adams County (heart of the ‘golden triangle’ for deer hunting) is probably as anti-Vax as they come.==

AKA also part of the Western Bloc, formerly known as “Forgottonia.”

Comment by NonAFSCMEStateEmployeeFromChatham Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:43 pm
Working to make sure your members don’t get fired for being fearful and misinformed is not being “on the wrong side of history.” These employees have risked their lives every day since the pandemic started, and in most cases are sincerely fearful of the vaccine. They deserve a little time to come around on this without a callous disregard for their livelihood from commenters who by and large got to work safely from home since the beginning.

Comment by chi Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:53 pm
=== and in most cases are sincerely fearful of the vaccine. They deserve a little time to come around on this without a callous disregard for their livelihood===

Jobs are not a right.

Get the vaccine, or “move on”

Any labor organization not dedicated to the members’ safety during a global pandemic is not a serious labor organization.

They’ve had since March to get vaccinated, generally speaking.

It’s September. The time to “come around” is over.

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 12:56 pm
—
They deserve a little time to come around on this without a callous disregard for their livelihood from commenters who by and large got to work safely from home since the beginning.
—

Come around? Come around to what — safety? Being part of a society that values safety over danger?

“Yeah, okay, 67mph in the school zone was fast. But I didn’t realize school started last week. I don’t read the paper, how do I know that? Give me some time to come around, get used to it. Kids are fast, too. They can run out of the way just fine.”

Comment by Mr K Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:00 pm
==They deserve a little time to come around on this==

It’s more than a “little” time they’re demanding, more like outright refusal, while people they work with and serve are becoming ill and some are dying.
Enough.

Comment by Wensicia Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:01 pm
At what point are these people simply looking for newer and newer excuses to claim fear.

Comment by Nick Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:03 pm
You may want to update this post in light of the Department of Defense guidance letter that went out this morning, which allows for both exemptions and testing in lieu of “full-vaccination”, which is defined as two shots, no booster. Sounds like some in the media are leaning a bit out over their skis.

Comment by Former ILSIP Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:05 pm
The State Veterans’ Homes have been decimated by Covid-19, even while 98% of the veterans at the Manteno Home have been vaccinated, units are constantly being placed on quarantined because staff tests positive. Every time a worker tests positive, visitations are cut, and the veterans are prohibited from leaving their units and sometimes their rooms. This has been going on now since the start of the pandemic. Some of these healthcare workers also just attended a 700 person anti-max/anti-vax rally (held on 8-30 according to the Daily Journal) in Kankakee county the same week that the Covid rate climbed 8% in that county.

These workers, combined with the Department of Corrections are the problem, and their right to religious exemption ends when their religious belief includes the right to hurt/kill/isolate veterans from their families. Public Servants have an obligation to serve public interests, not themselves. They get paid. If they don’t want to take on the responsibilities that come with being public servants, then they should find a place that caters to their very specific and very shallow viewpoint.

AFSCME needs to make it clear that they support the mandate. They will not do this as long as DOC is their bread and butter–it isn’t about choice, it’s about dues.

Comment by Former Public Servant Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:12 pm
=They deserve a little time to come around on this=

That’s like allowing a drunk to wean themselves off of alcohol while they continue to drive. The holdouts aren’t looking for time, they’re looking to thumb their nose at the rest of us by saying “you can’t make me do something I don’t want to.” When combatting a pandemic by doing the right thing time is of the essence.

Comment by Pundent Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:12 pm
“These employees have **needlessly** risked their lives every day since the **vaccine became available.**” Fixed it for you.

Comment by Sangamo Girl Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:14 pm
I would like to retract a harsh comment I made in response to someone else. We are really stirred up right now and tempers are rightly flaring over the pandemic and utter lack of responsibility by many.

Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:22 pm
=They deserve a little time =

If they haven’t come around in six months, more time isn’t the answer. They’ve had enough time. Now they need to put up or shut up and get the hell out

Comment by Joe Bidenopolous Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:27 pm
Grandson - I am not suggesting that state employees don’t need and deserve representation. I am suggesting that AFSCME is not providing that representation to a majority of its members and has been hijacked. They could decertify and organize with a different union. But right-thinking state employees shouldn’t be giving them a dime, IMHO

Comment by Joe Bidenopolous Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:28 pm
Grandson

“-This is one of the dumbest and most destructive things ever posted here. That would neither solve the vaccine problem nor help thousands of workers maintain a higher standard of living.-”

Honest question, If AFSCME Believes/Knows that members won’t walk away from them over this what incentive do they have to reconsider this crazy stance?

my 2c is they’re betting the Anti-vaxers are more willing to quit then the rest of their members. so they can tick off the rest it doesn’t matter their dues will still come in.

Comment by Mason Born Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:29 pm
Mandates won’t get your mask off, won’t provide you freedom, safety, or relieve your fear. False hope that someone else’s actions will save you, clearly you are not thinking straight and recognizing the you are not in control and never were. Variants are here to stay and won’t go away no matter what you do or say. Learn to live with it and get yourself as healthy as possible. You’ll feel a lot better when you come to terms with reality.

Comment by Anonymous Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:45 pm
Lets drop the notion that all the anti-vaxers are from Southern Illinois. I work in a south side of Chicago office , with a majority of my coworkers African American. I would say 60 percent are not vaccinated by talking to them. The majority also live in the southern suburbs like Homewood, Glenwood, and Country Club Hills- these areas have much lower vax rates. This is a much bigger problem than “members downstate.”

Comment by Alice Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:51 pm
… in any case back to reality

Comment by Nick Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:51 pm
Though I retract my harsh comment, I still maintain that blowing up the union is not wise. That would be literally throwing out the baby with the bathwater and playing right into the hands of those who do so much more harm in regards to the pandemic, let alone by trying to de-unionize the public sector. What would be the point of that? Why blow up one organization when other businesses, unions and governments implemented a hybrid model?

There is a lack of any requirement right now, as more people get sick and die. That is not acceptable.

Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 1:55 pm
There it is.
The “decertification drives”
That’s what this is about folks.
I tried to hint but you didn’t get it.
It only takes 50% plus one to call for decertification.
FOP aka “Cat Frat” ( Catanzara and the Fraternal Order of Police would love to welcome CO’s into their ranks.
This is an existential threat to AFSCME.
It’s also an existential threat to leadership in council 31.
The convention is coming.
Joe Bidenopoulus let the play slip
Joe shows us the perfidy
Decertify they whisper
Decertify and join another union
Do they know how hard that is to do?
No once the wall has been breached
It’s over for state employees.

This is about decertification folks
Raunerites are inside the walls

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 2:00 pm
Grandson, as a commenter above noted, it is possible for the AFSMCE unit to decertify and instantly have another representative certified. This is called a “raid” in labor circles. So it’s not as if employees who decertify their union automatically go non-union.

Comment by A State Employee Guy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 2:03 pm
===There it is.
The “decertification drives”
That’s what this is about folks.
I tried to hint but you didn’t get it.===

If a labor organization is more concerned about existing instead of what it is, as existing, exists as nothing a labor organization should be… not unified in the safety, well-being, and health of members.

Being against the vaccine is arguably being against why the labor movement actually exists.

It’s not an argument, it’s an excuse.

I look at other labor leaders and organizations that grasp the obvious… we exist first and last to be the guardian of its members. This take is being the guardian of its leadership?

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 2:08 pm
AFSCME needs to do the difficult thing and educate its members. “We agree with the admin…you need to be vaxed…here’s why…” Acknowledge the hesitation and concern…emphasize the need and the union’s role in protecting health and safety of members. There is a way; it’s not easy, but there is a way. This calls for leadership, not pandering.

Comment by Pot calling kettle Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 2:28 pm
My God OW is there even oxygen to breath up there in your moral high ground?
Decertification is only part of the attack
Taking the executive board and ousting Roberta and the entire leadership is the other prong.
What happens then OW?
Does your higher ground protect me when AFSCME is gutted from the inside?
There is an existential threat to the entire union.
We have got Raunerites inside the walls.
The mandate stance is a disparate act of self preservation not moral cowardice.
Do you really think frontline loyal vaccinated workers like me will last long when AFSCME is destroyed from within
IDOC locals are the pawns of perfidy
The guy who kept them in line died of Covid.
Now the anti vax locals could crash the entire plane.
Many times I’ve been accused of being hyperbolic.
But there have been a few times that I’ve been exactly correct.
God help me and other state workers if I’m right.

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 2:28 pm
Grandson, two union members that I personally know have left the union over their stance. One was a very active member. They contacted leadership to say that vaccination should be mandated for all AFSCME members. There was absolutely no response to communication from the union. From what we know, others will be leaving. The problem with testing is that there is no one standardized test specified. Some are better than others. There is no regular testing schedule specified or site where those tests must be completed. There are few religions, if any, that would be a vaccine mandate exception. There are medical conditions that would prevent it but those are easily documented. No, as Mr. Spock once said, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. That is absolutely the case now. Society as a whole is the many and the antivaxxers are the few. It is time for AFSCME to do the right thing by supporting vaccination for all members and helping to end this pandemic.

Comment by bungalowhistorians Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 2:29 pm
It seems to me it’s pretty easy to join AFSCME very hard to leave. If members leave because of this they could rejoin if AFSCME course corrects. Just Saying, thanks for the respectful answer.

As for Decertifying, if membership doesn’t think AFSCME is representing their interests because it’s kowtowing to some loud idiots what else are they to do? There are other public sector unions here, aren’t there?

Comment by Mason Born Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 2:29 pm
If fighting a vaccine mandate is all that stands between AFSCME and its members decertifying that seems like it was already a pretty precarious situation, to put it kindly

Comment by Nick Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 2:48 pm
- Honeybear -

=== If a labor organization is more concerned about existing instead of what it is, as existing, exists as nothing a labor organization should be… not unified in the safety, well-being, and health of members.

Being against the vaccine is arguably being against why the labor movement actually exists.

It’s not an argument, it’s an excuse.===

That’s where I stand. It’s not a high horse. Why do you want AFSCME to exist as it’s worry is to only it’s leadership and existence?

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 2:50 pm
=The mandate stance is a disparate act of self preservation not moral cowardice.=

AFSCME, no matter what justification it may provide, is on the wrong side of history on this one. And every day that’s becoming clearer.

The relevance of any union lies in it’s objective to protect the health and well-being of it’s collective membership. The anti-vaccine stance flies in the face of that.

Comment by Pundent Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 3:27 pm
Council has always had a paternalistic “father knows best” attitude towards it’s membership. They just want us to pay our dues, trust them, and leave the planning to them. Engaging membership is to be avoided or, if necessary, tightly controlled. This situation has laid bare the weaknesses of that strategy. I bet in their minds they have a very complex plan where they talk to JB and then negotiate some and declare victory. But they don’t communicate it well and the pro-vax people feel let down while the anti-vax people feel enabled and emboldened. I say if parts of Council want to decert, let em. If the price to keep RC-6 and RC-9 is to hurt the response to a global pandemic, then I say it is too high a price to pay.

Comment by DHS Drone Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 3:38 pm
OW- because I know that the union is way more than it’s leadership. I stand with Roberta and the current leadership. They have guided us through so much.
I don’t doubt for a second that leadership has our best interests at heart. Sure I disagree with the mandate stance but it doesn’t prohibit state employees from getting vaccinated.
Look if the perfidious IDOR Raunerites succeed in internally destroying our collective bargaining unit then irreparable damage will have been done to me and every other state worker. And no once there is decertification there is a whole lengthy process at which time workers are totally vulnerable to management and IPI ( or whoever their descendants are)
It’s not instantaneous
That’s total disinformation
No I stand with Roberta and the e-board.
Having them be overthrown would be a kakistocracy.
We’d fall
Show me the denouncements of AFSCME by SEIU or IFT OW
Where are they?
Afscme stance was done in consultation with the other unions.
They understand what’s at stake
The whole state bargaining unit
Which includes me
So no better to have a union I disagree with once in a while than have no union.
The perfidious IDOCs are the useful idiots of Raunerites left in state government by the Pritzker Administration.
There are highly organized decertification campaigns hitting every single IDOC facility.
They will make a play for decertification
They will make a play to take over the eboard.
They will make a play to oust Roberta
And the kakistocracy will begin.
Do you really want a Catanzara puppet as head of Afscme?
I sure don’t.
But go ahead
Keep plugging away with your moral message.
Look I get what your saying.
But it’s not a “simple solution” to this problem.
Afscme stance does not prevent anyone from getting vaccinated.
It does however give the slimmest chance for who I believe to be the best leadership to survive.
You know this is a new position for me. Remember how active I was in the union? Well I got pushed out I feel because I wanted reform. But I still have connections. I hated that we were a rubber stamp for Roberta.
But that was then. This is the reality that Raunerite insiders want to overthrow the whole bargaining unit. But they don’t think they are doing that. They think they are fighting for freedom when in fact they are useful idiots.
It’s the Trump play. Bring in a dope(s) who are just egotistical enough to think they know what they are doing. Then help them get into power and watch the destruction happen.
Again, I may be wrong but I don’t think I am.
I stand with Roberta and council leadership.

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 3:51 pm
=== Keep plugging away with your moral message.
Look I get what your saying.
But it’s not a “simple solution” to this problem.===

You seemingly want to fight for the idea of a union instead of what the union should represent.

A union should be mandating that management make the workplace safe and require vaccines.

Your concern is about who leads what where.

A mini… “Animal Farm” conundrum.

To be worried about “leadership” than core union principles, why even exist at that point, they won, and it’s about power, not safety.

The reason it’s not Pollyanna or “too simple” is that if you go against your own core pillars, the rest already means less… and people will get sick or worse in the end.

Good luck.

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:02 pm
“They deserve a little time to come around on this”

How much time do you need? The first jabs were given in December 2020.

Comment by Huh? Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:08 pm
Lost in most of this chatter is the extreme expense and hassle of running a testing program for the un-vaccinated workers. Not only do they jeopardize the health & safety of co-workers and clients they serve, they place a drag on the resources of the state expended to run a weekly testing program just because “freedumb.”

Comment by Eastern Bloc Gulag Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:24 pm
According to Biden’s tweet a few minutes ago, it’s mandatory vaccination or submission to a weekly (at least) test. So, it appears that this is a hybrid plan as well, and he mentions companies who may be already doing this.

So if this is true, it looks like there was a lot of hyperventilating for nothing. But, some folks want to blow stuff up, which brought us the former governor and president.

Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:24 pm
===it’s mandatory vaccination or submission to a weekly (at least) test===

That’s for private companies, not federal workers.

Comment by Rich Miller Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:25 pm
Whatever Honeybear is drinking, make mine half as strong. Can’t get lost in the land of tin foil…

Comment by Eastern Bloc Gulag Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:30 pm
Honeybear

Did i miss something? I thought Rauner lost in ‘18. I’m not seeing JB Pritzker breaking the union. I guess he could be a manchurian candidate waiting for a global pandemic and an AFSCME gross failure of Leadership to attack the union, but that’s some crazy prior planning.

Is this some sort of Deep State conspiracy here that they’re going to defeat the union despite the governor? Seems Qish.

Comment by Mason born Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:34 pm
OW have you been or are you a member of a union?
Your words strike me a lot like a civilian lecturing a member of the military about the military.

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:36 pm
“That’s for private companies, not federal workers.”

Thanks for the clarification. The tweet says all employers with 100+ employees, so that’s a lot of people, and seems like a big double standard between federal workers and millions of other workers and companies. Totally support the hybrid requirement for all private sector workers, and at least all public sector workers.

“two union members that I personally know”

Yeah, okay. If it waddles and quacks like a drive-by troll…

Comment by Grandson of Man Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:37 pm
–The tweet says all employers with 100+ employees, so that’s a lot of people, and seems like a big double standard between federal workers and millions of other workers and companies.–

That double standard likely has to do with limits on the Presidents authority. Much like the Governor as employer has more authority over state workers then he does over say Caterpillar employees.

Comment by Mason born Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:41 pm
- Honeybear -

I’ve tried not to be as… honest… as others are being to your… thoughts…

As in “Animal Farm”, once it becomes who leads what where and not about the collective good, might as well put clothes on the animals.

A fundamental core pillar of organized labor is the health of its membership in the workplace. Core. Pillar.

It’s funny. As an advocate for organized labor as I’ve always been, you find issue with my thoughts?

Good luck.

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:42 pm
Mason born, fair enough. When I say Raunerite I am really talking about the successor organizations to IPI. Remember a bunch of his folks went to work for anti union think tanks. Also there were a lot of Actual Raunerites left in state government especially IDOC. I complained about it a lot when Pritzker came in.
Regardless the decertification campaign is highly highly organized.
Yes it might seem Q ish but I’m putting it out there because of what my contacts in IDOC are telling me.
Well we’ll see at the biannual convention if the eboard or Roberta is overthrown.
If so it’s gonna be super bad.
In addition the Governor has no way of controlling what is happening inside of Afscme.
They play with this anti mandate for Roberta is to peel away the mental Heath and direct care facilities from IDOC control and influence so as to not be ousted at convention.
Like OW says it’s all about having the numbers.
If she went pro mandate she would loose the support of the direct care facilities which are at 30% vaccinated and be ousted.
Mind you she wouldn’t be replaced by someone competent.
It would be by some IDOC useful idiot.
Then Correctional Officers would decertify and attempt to join FOP. But what it would really do is open the gate for total destabilization of the bargaining unit. My belief is that AFSCME would fall. The whole unit.
We’ll see what happens

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:57 pm
I’m confused as to why everyone is hyper concerned with public sector workers being vaccinated. Aren’t they only like 20% of the workforce?

Seems like for a pandemic all private employment should also be the primary concern. I never hear anyone calling out employers who aren’t requiring it like they are the government employees.

Comment by The Dude Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 4:57 pm
OW I apologize unreservedly. You know I get passionate. I really believe we are looking at an extinction event here. But I should not have questioned you like that. I’m sorry

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:03 pm
Honeybear

With the utmost respect, Your explanation doesn’t make this any better to my way of thinking. It sure seems to be do the Wrong thing to save someones job. Would you feel the same if AFSCME was agreeing to 20% wage cut and employee assumption of Pensions contributions to save Robertas job?

Again with respect, that isn’t leadership.

Comment by Mason born Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:03 pm
- Honeybear -

No need for apology. These 18 or so months have been stressful enough without a worry to the “consideration”

My only hope is a recognition of what begat organized labor is not discarded for appeasement to intra-squabbling membership.

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:11 pm
I get your thought about Animal Farm.” All Animals are equal but some are more equal than others”
And I would actually agree
Roberta has too much power and control
The eboard is her tool
Questioning that got me blacklisted
And….
This isn’t animal farm
This is the Real Politik of anti union think tanks that have found and exploited their opening.
They have exploited antivax IDOCs and direct care workers to circulate decertification petitions.
You think unions are the only ones with organizers?
No this is very organized.
In Seminary at Univ of Chicago I took Real Politiks under the late Jean Bethke Elshtain. I recognize it.

Look I appreciate you not making fun of me and being polite.
But I’m super worried Roberta will be ousted and the union will fall. It’s why IFT and SEIU haven’t said a peep in criticism towards Afscme. You don’t think that’s strange? Usually we are in lock step. In reality we are because IFT and SEIU understand what an existential threat this is.
And thank you for always being on the side of labor.

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:20 pm
=have you been or are you a member of a union=

Whether a person has or hasn’t been a union it’s important to know that the public perception of the union and it’s leadership is important particularly when it comes to who ultimately is elected to run state government.

The idea that self-preservation of a union is more important than the basic ideals and objectives of the union is what gives rise to candidates like Bruce Rauner. And decisions which on their face only appear to benefit union leadership don’t play well with voters.

Something to think about.

Comment by Pundent Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:21 pm
OW - the politization of covid and the response may be enough to rupture the various public employee unions.

As a union member, and in conversations with fellow members, the mere fact of union membership does not align with a Democratic or unified covid response. Many are rabid anti-vaxers and anti-maskers.

Given the rabid politization, could a union stance on vaccination and masks cause a change in union leadership and/or decertification? That is what HB fears.

Once the union is decertified, what protections do the employees have against a hostile employer?

Because of blago, many IDOT technical staff voted to become members of Teamsters 916.

Comment by Huh? Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:30 pm
Mason, it’s not just “someone” whose job I’m trying to save.
It’s Roberta and her entire team.
It’s like a Presidential administration. It’s bigger than one person. It’s like changing pilots and entire crew mid flight to a highjacker that wants to drive the whole plane into a mountainside.
Now I might disagree with a lot of what she decides. I might love to see some of the leaders I respect in charge.
But it’s bad for all of us on the plane if the fricking Y’all Quada IDOCs gain control of the eboard and oust Roberta.
It shocks me that such brilliant political minds on here can’t understand the political maneuvering present.

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:31 pm
Exactly, thank you Huh

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:34 pm
- Honeybear -

As I’ve typed before and will leave it as such;

Appeasing the anti-vax folks, after this new Biden mandate, and citing previous Biden mandates as markers, at some point, what will it matter if core pillars are discarded for union leadership power?

It can’t be seen as a serious labor organization, at least by me.

Good luck. I’ve said my piece

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:35 pm
=== As a union member, and in conversations with fellow members, the mere fact of union membership does not align with a Democratic or unified covid response. Many are rabid anti-vaxers and anti-maskers.

Given the rabid politization, could a union stance on vaccination and masks cause a change in union leadership and/or decertification? That is what HB fears.===

Again…

Fears, not fears, if it can’t be seen that a fundamental core pillar of health is being traded for mere power of a labor organization’s existence, than its not a serious labor organization, as seemingly other labor organizations recognize and push this brief as they support mandates.

Times may indeed “change”, if labor groups now pick and choose health via political leanings versus science, then the labor movement won’t be saved by appeasement outside science, I mean, I know I’ll mock you (labor) endlessly for groups looking later to negotiate work safety, as an example.

Good luck.

With respect.

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:42 pm
Grandson, call me a troll if you like. I was employed in health care for many years. I was instrumental in organizing that health care facility. As health care workers in that facility, we all had to get the required vaccinations or not be employed there. That was years ago. Most of us had to be vaccinated to attend school. This vaccine should be no different. Unless some well outlined, regular standardized testing protocol is established, every employee should be vaccinated. Normally I have respected your comments. This time, like AFSCME you may be on the wrong side of it.

Comment by bungalowhistorians Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:43 pm
Honneybear

Even if everything you’ve said is true about the risks to AFSCME a Global Pandemic seems, at least to me, to be the kind of time when you leed both for your members and the people in State care at risk. They ,ay hate you but they’re more likely to be alive.

We disagree but I wish you well.

Comment by Mason born Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:47 pm
Additionally there is nothing the union can say or do that will get these anti vaxers to take the daggone shot. Sure the state can impose that. But those are “management rights”.
I truly believe there is no reasoning with these antivaxers. They make me livid. The union can negotiate in good faith. We can legally maneuver but in the end only a mandate from management can force them to take it or not. That is not a labor right.
Yes I think we should be pro mandate! Everyone I know at DHS has taken theirs.
But Y’all Quada IDOCs, who always give us trouble on everything are being used to destabilize and threaten the entire unit. I’d love to let them go. But we can’t because it would literally cause a cascade failure.
Yes, we’ve got real problems.
It’s un democratic and smoke filled room union boss autocracy.
But it’s the only thing
The only thing
That protects my benefits and rights

Look I’m just a frontline state worker helping the poor, disabled and elderly in the metro east.
I’ll have just a small pension when I retire. (Tier II)
That plus social security is all I’ll have.
It will be a modest retirement but I’m so thankful for it.
There are so many good state workers just like me.
The union is all that stands between me and a rough old age.
If the union holds then I get to retire and enjoy a modest life.

Comment by Honeybear Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:52 pm
Given the requirements that Biden imposed on all public and private employers today, this would be the time for AFSCME to gracefully concede that the discussion is over. This isn’t about protecting union leadership or the unions viability. And it never really was or should have been. This is a public safety issue - full stop. And I’m sorry if it creates tension within AFSCME, but pandemics aren’t easy.

Comment by Pundent Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:54 pm
Have to disagree with Honeybear on this. I won’t leave the union for their stance but they are being held hostage by the anti-vaxxers, who will leave the union if AFSCME agrees to mandates because they are stupid and don’t know what’s good for them. Really frustrating situation.

Comment by DHS Jim Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 5:57 pm
OW - what do you say to persuade an irrational person that something to which they are opposed, is in their best interest?

The issue isn’t fear. It is the irrational behavior and thought processes of anti-vaxers/maskers.

The fundamental tenets of unions are to promote the health and welfare of their members. It goes to a core tenet of AFSCME to support the jab, promoting the health and safety of their members.

Many members irrationally believe that a life saving vaccination is an encroachment on their liberty. As such, they refuse to believe that the union is acting in their best interests when the union supports a vax/mask/test mandate.

It is that irrational behavior and thought process that Honey Bear fears will bring down the union.

Comment by Huh? Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 6:19 pm
= It is that irrational behavior and thought process that Honey Bear fears will bring down the union.=

Irrational behavior will exist with or without a vaccine mandate. In fact being coerced into taking a position which is contradictory to your core mission probably only serves to encourage more irrational behavior.

Comment by Pundent Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 6:41 pm
OW - I go back to my remarks about the politization of the covid response.

Citing Biden covid mandates as a marker to concede on a vax mandate may be enough for trampian union members to revolt and attempt to decertify the AFSCME.

I am not a member of AFSCME. They are the big dog. With the exception of the ruiner years, my union generally follows what AFSCME does in negotiations.

It takes 50% + 1 to decertify a union. Someone may be counting votes…

How AFSCME goes, so go the other State employee unions.

Comment by Huh? Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 6:48 pm
The only way out of this two blocked box is for Pritzker to mandate the vax for all State employees.

Comment by Huh? Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 7:00 pm
They won’t be able to decert the whole thing. They might be loud but they don’t have the numbers. I believe the attempt is to just decert one or two bargaining units. Now if that attempt ends up getting the contract reopened is a whole other matter. Now what they might be able to do is run the table on the eboard spots at the convention as much as the state constitution allows. Some regions mandate a state university eboard member for example and they won’t be able to take those. But the state ones will be up for grabs. Normally council organizes a slate way ahead of time and campaigns behind the scenes. Locals are voting for delegations to go to convention now or soon. Facilty people tend to be organized since they all see other all the time and the IDOC people have that “thin grey line” mentality. If something gets them going, they might stick together and put their own slate up against councils slate. Then things get interesting, If they win they can pick a new ED. Or at least tell them what to do. The ED controls the staff but the council board controls the ED. This is why council is so paranoid about these elections.

Comment by DHS Drone Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 7:01 pm
===It takes 50% + 1 to decertify a union. Someone may be counting votes…

How AFSCME goes, so go the other State employee unions.===

I don’t claim to have the answers, heck, I’m looking at this from traditional labor views on health and how working towards unity on health can rally the majority.

If it’s an internal, intra-member faction fight, organizing labor votes is more science than art, abd very bare knuckle.

Watching how those labor races are organized, run, and campaigns to those… they intrigue me to the raw aspects of those politics.

But, I’m outside.

Find a good nose counter and build now with those who understand what this fight was about.

Good luck, bud.

Comment by Oswego Willy Thursday, Sep 9, 21 @ 7:54 pm

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