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Pantagraph says the quiet part out loud

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Illinois

* From a Bloomington Pantagraph editorial about the congressional remap…

Instead, what’s happened is painfully predictable. Citizens and voters talking to officials about the maps complain about what they don’t have in common with others in their districts as drawn. Race is a key factor, as is the rural-urban mixtures.

One of the largest issues is more wide-reaching. When voters see that their areas of representation are being divvied up in a partisan debate, they’re bound to lose identity. They can feel disenfranchised. Not in a literal sense – they’re still able to vote. But imagining their vote counts for anything is difficult.

That ultimately winds up with the worst result possible in a dem0cracy – apathy. If we don’t care what happens, we’re leaving open the door for the worst to happen.

Yikes.

posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:15 am

Comments

A perfect summary of my thoughts on this mess.

Comment by rtov Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:17 am
Who writes this sh*t and who in god’s name approves it?

Comment by Shytown Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:18 am
rtov, that may say more about you than you know.

Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:18 am
Literally the only benefit of Trumpism is that it opened the curtain on Republican talking points that avoided saying the quiet part out loud. In this new era they can just go ahead and say what they’re thinking and show us who they have been this whole time.

Comment by NIU Grad Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:24 am
Dog whistlers gonna dog whistle

Comment by The Doc Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:25 am
My goodness, yikes is right.

There’s a feeling of emboldenness these days to this need to say the white part out loud because there’s empowerment to wanting race as a reason one can discriminate or alienate.

It wasn’t too long ago these same words as a letter to a newspaper wouldn’t make the cut for publication. Now the papers themselves write it for your in-law uncle’s glee.

It’s a regression.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:26 am
=they’re bound to lose identity. They can feel disenfranchised. Not in a literal sense – they’re still able to vote. But imagining their vote counts for anything is difficult.=

Obviously, as demonstrated by my participation on the blog, I am more interested in politics than the average citizen. There are those here that are far more knowledgeable about how things work, but we are all probably in the top 1% in interest.

That said, I have never even considered linking my congressional district to my personal or political identity. The thought never crossed my mind. And that my district is in no way representative (dead red district and I am a centrist with libertarian leanings. True Libertarian) has never impacted my willingness to participate in our elections. if anything, it has energized me. I am fine if it encourages the maga crowd to pass on elections (not really, because I still believe in our Republic and the citizens responsibility to participate regardless of their politics)

I never thought about crying about it, which apparently has become the daily routine for some on the hard right in Illinois. Maybe they should join the secession seeking western counties of Maryland.

Stop being victims. Sheesh.

Comment by JS Mill Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:29 am
Hard to argue against their conclusion. Sadly.

Comment by sal-says Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:34 am
I live on the North Side of Chicago, I distinctly remember a presidential election a few years ago in which I knew that my vote did not matter no matter what my position on the candidates or issues was. State House and Senate were running uncontested, US Rep was basically uncontested, Illinois was going to go Democrat, and US Senate was basically uncontested as well. The judges almost all win retention. So what was the point in voting.

Comment by Unionman Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:36 am
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

So long as those pursuits are weighted knowing race is a key factor, as is the rural-urban mixtures.

Comment by Chuck Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:37 am
We’re witnessing the death of shame.

I was never a big fan of shame, but now that it’s on its way out, I can see that it served a useful societal function.

Well, now that everyone’s just letting their flag fly, at least we don’t have to wonder anymore where they stand. Sheesh.

Comment by Crispy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:37 am
- sal-says - Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:34 am:

LOL, not it’s not all.

Comment by Shield Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:38 am
This is a national problem that needs fixing at the national level.

Comment by Alexa Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:39 am
===State House and Senate were running uncontested, US Rep was basically uncontested===

You’re not a victim to an inept party and the poor or non-existing recruitment. We all are.

The victimhood is embarrassing only if you don’t blame the party ignoring opportunities.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:40 am
==Citizens and voters talking to officials about the maps complain about what they don’t have in common with others in their districts as drawn…When voters see that their areas of representation are being divvied up in a partisan debate, they’re bound to lose identity.==

Really? Because the maps as currently drawn link up folks with very similar backgrounds and views. If anything, that in-district homogeneity leads to the reinforcement of extremist views and the election of folks like Bailey and the Millers. And those folks respond by reinforcing white nationalist “identity” and amplify white grievance.

Comment by Pot calling kettle Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:40 am
It would be interesting to be able to see the breakdown of county, township, and municipal areas on the remap websites. It’s not the hard to add those layers onto a map. Make them clickable if you don’t want to make it more “messy”. That would help the public see just how contiguous some of these proposals are. And, if that already exists, my apologies, but I did not find that feature as an option when I went to https://ilhousedems.com/redistricting/.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:45 am
- Hard to argue against their conclusion. -

That a member of a different race can’t represent your interests? No room to argue with that?

Comment by Excitable Boy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:48 am
the ultimate indictment of the good government/Fair Maps Coalition “all districts should be square and white like Iowa” crowd. Shockingly tone deaf.

Comment by Not for nothing Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:51 am
=So what was the point in voting.=

I don’t necessarily agree with your thesis, but I definitely agree with your conclusion. You shouldn’t participate in elections.

Comment by Joe Bidenopolous Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:54 am
==Hard to argue against their conclusion.==

Not for me.

Gerrymandering has always been around. It was named after Elbridge Gerry, for land’s sake. And yet, it hasn’t sparked a violent revolution yet. We should consider that it’s just not that big a deal to the voters.

Comment by Arsenal Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:54 am
= Unionman=

“So what was the point in voting”

consider pulling a “D” ballot in the primaries and then vote for the least viable D to weaken their chances in the general. Plus it keeps the parties guessing in term of mailers.

Comment by Donnie Elgin Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:00 am
Arsenal- “We should consider that it’s just not that big a deal to the voters.”

One of the previous maps split the small rural county I live in in half…right down the center nearly through the county seat. Just because gerrymandering has been around “forever” doesn’t mean it should continue to be used “forever”. Surely there are ways to create a map that reflects race, populations, etc. without creating even greater divisions among folks that may just live across the street from one another.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:01 am
“We live out here in order to avoid Those People — and now you’re going to make us share a congressional district with Them?‼?”

Ugly.

– MrJM

Comment by MisterJayEm Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:03 am
What one side calls gerrymandering, the other side calls a fair map.
If it was possible to make a map perfectly fair, both sides would hate it.

Comment by Bruce( no not him) Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:13 am
why don’t they just write land deserves a vote?

Comment by Amalia Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:14 am
county borders should remain as intact as possible concerning congressional maps.

Comment by SwiperD Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:35 am
While clumsily written, the concerns about essential disenfranchisement are real. Where I live, my vote largely doesn’t matter. The incumbents run unopposed. I could easily be included in competitive districts, but instead, I’ve put into a “safe” district and have no hope of influencing who represents me in the General Assembly or in the US House.

Comment by Nick Nombre Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:37 am
==If we don’t care what happens, we’re leaving open the door for the worst to happen.==

Oh, you mean like electing Donald John Trump President of the United States?

Comment by Osborne Smith III Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:38 am
===county borders should remain as intact as possible ===

Why?

Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:45 am
=Hard to argue against their conclusion. Sadly.=

Their conclusion is that the world isn’t as white as it used to be. The sadness that emanates from that is entirely on you.

Comment by Pundent Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:48 am
=This is a national problem that needs fixing at the national level.=

Amen, sister.
Gerrymandering is poisonous to democracy.
It engenders the distillation of extreme views and divisions.
And it’s tearing this country apart.

Comment by TinyDancer(FKASue) Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 10:59 am
The premise that you’re disenfranchised based purely on being in an “uncompetitive” district is ludicrous. If you’re a conservative Republican living in the south suburbs, it’s *your* choice to live there. The political climate doesn’t owe it to you to be more purple so your feelings aren’t hurt when you cast a vote.

Comment by Not for nothing Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 11:07 am
- Anon221 - Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:45 am:

Not what contiguous means.

Comment by Shield Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 11:22 am
Rich- “Why?”

Outside of very large metropolitan counties, choosing a line to maintain continuity should not be that hard. In less metro areas, that line can easily be a county line. If a county is large or very large, then chose township lines or metro lines. You could still create districts that encompass a wide variety of peoples. But dividing a county just to create a political in Party challenge for an upcoming primary seems to be far too political and not in keeping with the current State Constitution. Small counties which may be split in two, for example, may have to potentially convince two different legislators of their “worth” when it comes to funding opportunities. The current proposals for the 13th and 15th districts seem to be designed to do nothing more than force a Republican primary showdown. And, while there is nothing I would like more for Davis to depart his idea of public service, I really don’t want to see it done the way the current proposed map is trying to go about that.

And as to the sentiment of some here today, telling people to move if they feel their vote doesn’t count is a very arrogant way to determine democracy. I live in a very Republican county, but that doesn’t prevent me from continuing to live here and hope that my voice still matters even though I lean more Democrat and Independent. It’s doubtful that dividing the county I live in in two will result in any balancing of democracy.

SECTION 3. LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING (State Constitution)
(a) Legislative Districts shall be compact, contiguous and substantially equal in population. Representative Districts shall be compact, contiguous, and substantially equal in population.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 11:24 am
Shield- Contiguous is only part of how these districts are to be drawn. And, yes, a district that is several hundred miles long and maybe a hundred miles wide like the currently drawn 13th, can be considered contiguous, but it lacks other features and seems drawn only for political reasons.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 11:27 am
===may have to potentially convince two different legislators of their “worth” when it comes to funding opportunities===

Large counties have to do that all the time. Also, “may have to potentially” is not exactly a great argument.

Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 11:33 am
Rich “Large counties have to do that all the time. Also, may have to potentially is not exactly a great argument.”

Large metro counties have a larger population base and thus a larger potential voter base. Having a 100,000 population cut in two is far different than having a 10,000 population cut in two.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 11:42 am
@Anon221 -

Bloomington, Peoria, Galesburg, and Rock Island are connected by an interstate, it is pretty tough to argue they have nothing in common when there is so much commerce between them.

The county boundaries in Illinois are vestiges of our pre-statehood days.

Perhaps we should move forward with the former state senator’s idea of consolidating all of these miniscule downstate counties so that y’all will no longer have an objection.

Menard County has a population of 12,000. The whole county.

That’s half the size of the city of Collinsville and smaller than the city of Midlothian.

Jesse Sullivan proudly claims he’s a son of Menard County, but do you think he’s ever been to Midlothian, Beach Park, Norridge, Godfrey, Alsip, or any of the other 100 midsize towns in Illinois that are larger in population and most people couldn’t locate on a map?

Counties don’t vote. Counties are not a community. Springfield has more in common with Decatur and Champaign than it does Laomi.

Comment by Thomas Paine Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 11:51 am
Thomas Paine-People in counties do vote. People living in counties have voices. Those voices are not as homogeneous as some of “y’all” seem to think. Counties are not vestiges… at least not yet. Community can have many meanings and layers. Regional Development Plans, for example, have many voices contributing to their development and redevelopment. And some of those RDPs are county-centric to try and protect natural lands, for instance, against “fly-over” comments from folks who have never even set foot in the county to begin with. The “we don’t need you” only serves to alienate others no matter what their background or where they live. Is that what “y’all” really want???

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 12:07 pm
===county borders should remain as intact as possible ===

==Why?==

You could ask the same question about state borders. Why should Congressional districts not span across state lines, especially when the number of residents per district varies from 994K in MT to 568K in WY? We could change the US Constitution to allow it, but does it make sense? I would suggest not, because each state has an identity that is worth recognizing and keeping intact as much as possible.

The same can be said of counties within a state. I certainly identify with Champaign county. I know its issues and use its services. I know less about Piatt, still less about Macon, and little about St Clair. Placing me in a voting block with populations that are far away from me, while separating me from my neighbors, dilutes the ability of my neighbors to effectively advocate for our shared concerns, and it breaks apart local culture and civic pride.

This is, of course, a balancing act, because other people have many other identities that do not follow political boundaries including race, rural/urban, and natural features. The real solution is something along the lines of the cube root rule, where the number of districts increases with the population. By that formula, we would have 27 federal House seats (out of 692, 469K residents per district) and 233 state House seats (54K residents per district).

Comment by thechampaignlife Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 12:23 pm
==If you’re a conservative Republican living in the south suburbs, it’s *your* choice to live there==

What if he lives in Dixmoor?

Comment by City Zen Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 1:13 pm
===county borders should remain as intact as possible ===

Land does not vote.

Anything regarding “land”, “intact” or “boundaries” takes away the vote and empowers land and minority groups living in said land versus the majority.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 2:08 pm
“Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.”

Comment by up2now Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 2:21 pm
OW- “Land does not vote.”

Yes, in a fashion, it does or the majority party (D or R) wouldn’t be trying to control/split boundaries of many levels of various types of political districts to determine who gets to vote for whom where every ten years.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 3:12 pm
=== Yes, in a fashion, it does===

No.

Not in any fashion does land vote if proportional representation is a factor in “equal” district size (population) nor does land vote when “99 counties voted for” as an argument is if it’s the to how votes are counted.

No. Sorry. Nope.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 3:16 pm
OW-”if proportional representation is a factor in ‘equal’ district size (population)…”

This is my point. Where should the line(s) be drawn so that we do not create disproportional representation? Why do districts need to cut down the middle of a county if, by doing so, one would not be changing the proportional representation in any way? Or the middle of a small town or even medium sized metro area? It seems capricious to me to do that. And, as I posted earlier today, there is no way to see if/how these redrawn maps might be doing that unless you have a strong background in creating maps and importing the various layers needed to see how these remap boundaries actually lay.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 3:27 pm
=== This is my point. Where should the line(s) be drawn so that we do not create disproportional representation?===

No.

This is quibbling *to* gerrymander, not against it.

===Why do districts need to cut down the middle of a county if, by doing so, one would not be changing the proportional representation in any way?===

No.

Otherwise city wards, like Chicago would require full and complete neighborhoods.

Plus, you can’t guarantee how any place will be existing in complete similarity with today. No. Nope.

===there is no way to see if/how these redrawn maps might be doing that unless you have a strong background in creating maps and importing the various layers needed to see how these remap boundaries actually lay.===

Oh.

You think that’s *not* going on when the slicing is part and parcel of finding where the lines make sense.

No, this idea that land votes or boundaries matter is wholly dismissing how proportional distribution of equal voters is factored in and accomplished.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 3:33 pm
OW- “This is quibbling *to* gerrymander, not against it.”

No. It is not. SECTION 3. LEGISLATIVE REDISTRICTING (State Constitution)
(a) Legislative Districts shall be compact, contiguous and substantially equal in population. Representative Districts shall be compact, contiguous, and substantially equal in population.

I’ve already said that I am against gerrymandering.
*****
“Plus, you can’t guarantee how any place will be existing in complete similarity with today. No. Nope.”

No I can’t and neither can anyone else. So why complicate the issue with creating further divisions of voting areas if they are not necessary. In some areas, like Chicago and other large MSAs, yes, that might be needed. But a downstate county with along with it’s county seat cut in half… No, not necessary.

***

“You think that’s *not* going on when the slicing is part and parcel of finding where the lines make sense.”

I don’t know. You need all parts of the “sausage” before you can make it. The maps that the legislators are putting forth do not go into that detail level. As I said before, and I do know how to make maps with layers (part of my job), why not put those layers out there for people to be able to see in real time? It’s.Not.That.Hard.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 3:46 pm
=== Legislative Districts shall be compact, contiguous and substantially equal in population. Representative Districts shall be compact, contiguous, and substantially equal in population.===

You’re quibbling to how it effects *you*, not that the districts don’t meet the criteria.

===So why complicate the issue===

LOL

Seriously? Sincerely?

It’s not complicating anything. You’re not any less of a person by how a line is drawn dividing a county, than any Chicago neighborhood being divided or any suburban town or township.

Are you that fragile? This isn’t like changing school boundaries.

===No, not necessary===

Those are choices. Downstate voters choose lots of things. They also love them some “land votes” thinking. Welp, that’s not how democracy works.

===why not put those layers out there for people to be able to see in real time? It’s.Not.That.Hard.===

Again, I’ll tell you how a watch is made this time;

You actually think that maps are drawn not factoring in those overlays as a factor? I’m of the belief that not only are those overlays used and factored in, zooming into neighborhood, block, and household are also zoomed in as well.

They could very well be doing it, you’re not liking that it’s not used as you’d like.

Anything less than factoring in proportional population as an override to “keeping counties whole” would be in of itself gerrymandering for land first.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 4:15 pm
OW- “Are you that fragile? This isn’t like changing school boundaries.”

Anyone who knows me, knows that I am not “fragile”. And to jump the shark to trying to make it seem like I am equating this to school consolidation is disingenuous and patronizing on your part. I don’t love “land votes” thinking. I spent several years fighting against just that with Illinois Drainage Law locally (look into how that is handled and how easily people can be disenfranchised in votes). And the, “They could very well be doing it, you’re not liking that it’s not used as you’d like.” Again… another leap of logic on your part. No…what I don’t like is that people ASSUME it’s being done without providing evidence that those variables ARE being used in the final product. I don’t live on faith or as you have admonished me in the past years, vote on Hope.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 4:27 pm
=== And to jump the shark ===

No one jumped any sharks. The idea of trying to keep counties whole to help land votes, I’m mocking that to school boundaries. Nothing more. That’s why I asked if you’re that fragile. This is nothing like schools.

=== Again… another leap of logic on your part.===

It’s actually not.

In the past, it was reported how HDems would go, not neighborhood, not block, but by building on the block deep. Now all of a sudden they aren’t doing that? Your requested overlay… that’s even too far away for these, if the past is any indicator… the making of the watch kinda deep dive.

I don’t have to assume how criteria is being looked at if any indicator to past precise pin points tell me how to look today.

It’s a luxury to have whole towns, townships, even counties in a district, not a right or requirement to any way districts are required to be drawn.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 4:38 pm
Vermilion County is in a new District that touches Lake Michigan. Not kidding.

Comment by Interesting Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 4:45 pm
OW- “I don’t have to assume how criteria is being looked at if any indicator to past precise pin points tell me how to look today.”

Sorry, I’ve seen that used as reasoning in too many diverse situations that, when really researched in-depth, actually have some problems that are missed or intentionally glossed over or even ignored by those creating the product. I’m not trusting, and probably never will be, to just take someone’s word at face value. I’m a “Why” person, and not going to change any time soon. It’s not a “luxury” to keep a community intact. Sometimes, especially when it comes to services, it may be a necessity. So, you didn’t tell me how a watch is made, you just told me to trust the watchmaker, and I’m not prepared to “lick the paintbrush” until I know what’s in the pot (reference to the Radium Girls).

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 4:57 pm
=== I’m not prepared to “lick the paintbrush” until I know what’s in the pot (reference to the Radium Girls).===

Good luck.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 5:07 pm
If a map you disagree with can kill you, maybe I’m not the right person to argue with on luxuries

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 5:09 pm
===It’s a luxury to have whole towns, townships, even counties in a district, not a right or requirement to any way districts are required to be drawn.===

It would be a fascinating study to analyze how much federal dollars flow to a county based on its distance from its representative, its distance from the center of the district, its distance from the edge of the district, and (relevant to this conversation) comparing counties split by district lines versus those not split. While I would hypothesize that Anon221’s stance that unsplit counties would fare better, there is a decent chance that OW’s stance is true that it does not matter.

Comment by thechampaignlife Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 5:21 pm
===When voters see that their areas of representation are being divvied up in a partisan debate, they’re bound to lose identity.===

I agree completely. Republicans have been doing this to Democrats for generations downstate by dividing cities up into pie slices, diluting the urban vote with big chunks of rural. Only recently has this been overcome in certain areas.

Comment by Jibba Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 5:28 pm
thechampaignlife- Depending on how some areas of the state get split up, we may be able to do a 10 year study to find out how certain areas fare.

Comment by Anon221 Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 5:44 pm
=== Depending on how some areas of the state get split up, we may be able to do a 10 year study to find out how certain areas fare.===

Geez, Louise, it’s not like this is a “new” thing, drawing maps.

This entitled idea that dividing a country when for DECADES suburban Chicago has had this going on only reinforces how out of touch and privileged downstate feels about “compact” and “land”

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 5:48 pm
I live in a downstate, rural county. I live in the country on a county line road. Many of my neighbors live in the next county; I also shop, eat, and belong to a club in that county across the road. On the other hand, the folks in other parts of the county in which I live are people I rarely interact with. A line drawn down that road to fulfill some need to keep counties intact would separate me from my neighbors and lump me with folks I don’t know…why is that somehow better?

Comment by Pot calling kettle Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 7:21 pm
===So, you didn’t tell me how a watch is made, you just told me to trust the watchmaker===

I explained the past process to draw maps that confused you to that overlay thing you desire.

- thechampaignlife -

It’s all good. Fear and concern for newer things or change is always a possibility.

My own “look” to effective representation usually begins and ends with;

How competitive the district is
How important is it that the incumbent wins
Is the incumbent a member of the majority party
Do locals trust process and the want of all for good results

It’s not the map that can dictate things, it’s who is seated, how the seat is “hot or cold”, the political power of the seat to majorities, and cooperation

The rest is “land voting” and “folks not like us” silly

Thanks for the kind words on my Bears song too.

Be well.

Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Oct 25, 21 @ 9:13 pm