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* The setup…
20 Chicago public school students have been fatally shot so far this school year — seven in March alone — compared with 24 the year before, said spokesman Mike Vaughn.
* And…
According to data provided by officials from the U.S. Department of Justice, Chicago school officials are not alone in battling this surge in youth violence. The department cited the most recent U.S. Census Bureau statistics that reveal homicide is now ranked among the top three leading causes of childhood mortality, accounting for one out of 23 deaths of children and youth younger than 18 years of age.
* The question: What is the appropriate government response?
posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 5:44 am
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Well, it’s response should not be passing more gun laws. How many times have the current ones failed. A thug doesn’t follow the rules. This needs to start at home. Behaviors need to change. Here is a whole generation that has little respect for life. Music has created a glorious climate of gun battles, but guess what, it’s not so glorious when it’s someone you know.
Comment by Rod is God Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 6:45 am
I don’t think the school violence rate can be looked at by itself- the totality of the circumstances need to be considered. Consider a 57% Chicago School attendance rate and all the other problems with the schools it is part of a bigger picture. What to do? Wish I knew. I do know Daley and “The Reverends” have it all wrong blaming it on a lack of gun control. It is sad and laughable that they are claiming this one issue is the root of the problem.
Comment by Freezeup Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 7:11 am
Here’s some thoughtful ideas that don’t include more gun laws, something that should make my Republican friends happy:
1. Stop closing schools in Chicago without community input. Much of the escalating violence can be traced directly back to Mayor Daley’s decision to close schools, shifting kids with different gang allegiances to different schools.
2. Decrease classroom sizes and increase the number of teaching assistance. Disorder in the classroom leads to chaos outside the classroom, and class sizes are completely unmanageable.
3. Reinvest in extra-curricular programs, arts, music, and physical education. These programs are proven to motivate academically challenged kids and lift their performance.
4. Strengthen community policing in troubled neighborhoods, and invest in a “Weed and Seed” program. East St. Louis’ “Weed and Seed” program is a cooperative effort between local, state and federal law enforcement that relies on a local community policing as its backbone, cracks down on career criminals (weeds) by going after them for everything from jaywalking on up, disrupting criminal networks.
5. Restore public faith in the police. Police can’t do it alone, they need community support, but Chicago has done everything possible to undermine public support, from John Burge on down.
6. Invest in communities. Unemployment in Chicago’s struggling neighborhoods is off the charts, especially among teenage black men. Black and Latino neighborhoods are shortchanged on everything from parks to schools to streets to police to economic investment.
7. Strengthen families. Public assistance payments (TANF) haven’t been increased since the 80’s, inviting crime into poor neighborhoods.
8. Reform our juvenile justice system. Many parents see their kids headed down the wrong path, but there’s nowhere for them to turn for help. If they go to the police, their son goes right to the juvenile detention center, and while the JDC is making progress down the road to reform, most people think their kids would be better off on the streets.
9. Reform DCFS (see above) If parents turn to DCFS, they worry about having all of their kids taken away from them, and then having their parental rights severed.
10. Pass a Living Wage Law in Illinois. No parent should have to work two or even three jobs just to pay the rent and put food on the table, and we can’t expect anyone to be much of a parent if they are working 16 hour days seven days a week. Most are doing a heroic job of juggling it all, but something inevitably is going to fall.
11. Strengthen our child support enforcement. Last time I checked, more than 50% of court-ordered child support goes uncollected, and 2/3 of Illinois employers weren’t complying with a law requiring them to report new hires. Let’s increase fines for employers who aren’t in compliance and allow enforcement lawyers to go after them for treble damages if they’re sheltering a delinquent parent. And lets create interstate agreements with our neighbors so deadbeats can’t simply shirk their responsibility by going to work in Indiana.
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 7:28 am
Why should the government do anything? Where’s the parents?
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 7:37 am
Anon 7:37 — What do you want parents to do? Buy their kids Kevlar?
Comment by Yellow Dog Democrat Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 7:57 am
Good comments, YDD.
Comment by Freezeup Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 8:21 am
What YDD said. I would place particualr emphasis on 2 and 3. I would be curious to know what percnatge of the shooters are from economically depressed neighborhoods.
I would add a radical idea as well. Public boarding schools (voluntary). unfortunetly many parents are unequipped financialy and emotionaly to care for their kids or provide them good learning environments. Providing more stable and routine environments for kids in addition to YDD point 3 works an amazing change on kids. I have had the opporutnity to work with foster kids. You would be amazed at how simply having a routine to their lives improves kids (set mealtimes, brush teeth, set bed times, etc). Many of the factors that lead to youth violence come from a lack of structure in the kids environment. We need to improve the environment and provide acitvities that channel creativity, atheletics etc so the kids have somthing to do besides hang around on the streets.
Look at Jessie Whites Tumblers as an example.
Comment by Ghost Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 8:22 am
Excellent post from YDD.
Particularly the part about reforming the juvenile authority and DCFS. Parents are correct to be worried about their kids going into juvenile detention in Cook County, where the ACLU had to step in to try and reverse decades of continued
mistreatment of internees under Stroger pere. Despite the usual promises of reform, the place remains a pork farm for Democrats. And recent events suggest that reform efforts are faltering.
Another poorly managed pork farm, for Blagojevich
pals, is DCFS, where far too many children are removed from parents who could likely keep them if
given effective help (effective being the key word here). DCFS just can’t get it right. They remove kids who could stay with families who are workable (thereby pandering to the lucrative foster care industry) and don’t protect children in real danger. Since July (this fiscal year) for example, at least 10 very young children have died,many violently,of maltreatment, despite current or recent DCFS “intervention.” These are the ones covered in the papers. We don’t hear about the many others who almost died but suffered permanent harm.
Our pols, of course, have been busy ignoring conditions at these pork farms. The legislature
set up a DCFS Oversight committee last year, after a downstate newspaper covered a series of egregious DCFS “errors” in detail, but it meets rarely if ever. And there is a lot to meet about.
For starters, it should be convened immediately after a child under DCFS “protection” dies of maltreatment.
When our Democratic masters stop letting state and county agencies be run for the benefit of politicians and connected bureaucrats, there may be changes. While the Dems have a supermajority in Illinois, though, reform is unlikely to happen.
Comment by Cassandra Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 8:36 am
Send in the marines! Seriuously, these are similar to Iraq War casualties. What gives?
Comment by The Welshman Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 8:39 am
YDD you make some good points but are obviously ill informedabout the juvenille justice system. D you have any idea how hard t is to get a kid sent to the JDC. Unless it is a gun crime or violent crime with the juvenille having a history the kids going home with mom (dad never seems to be around). the problem is children having children that they cannnot care for. Low expectations and little parental involvment have led to throw away kids with no hope of success and they are roaming the streets just looking for victims. I agree with most of your other suggestions though.
Comment by fed up Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 8:42 am
Chicago has the toughest gun laws in the country. No one is allowed to possess a firearm in Chicago unless you are licensed to do so, such as a police officer.
And for years Chicago has had one of the highest murder rates in the nation.
Chicago has a street gang problem that Daley likes to pretend does not exist. Why not pass a law outlawing membership in a street gang? It would be just a big of waste of time as additional gun laws.
So as you can tell, I was not impressed with the call for more gun laws from Daley, Blagojevich and others in their rally yesterday using school children as props.
With the recent murders of school children, Daley needs to turn his police force onto the street gangs and hammer them hard. More undercover work. More busting up of street gang sales of narcotics. And have the kids wear uniforms to school so that wearing “colors” is more difficult.
It would be a start.
And where are the parents? Many of the parents support their gang banging kids. That is a massive problem that no laws in this country will solve.
Comment by Louis G. Atsaves Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 8:44 am
Well said YDD. Can we forward your resume to the Superintendent of the Chicago Public School System?
Comment by Kevin Fanning Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 8:49 am
1) Reduce the amount of violence seen on television.
2) Monitor and restrict the violence found in video games.
2) When a child over 13 commits a violent action where someone is hurt, they should be treated as an adult. Depending on the degree of violence, give those 17 years old and older the option of serving a 4 year term in the army over in Iraq.
3) For gang members that commit a violent crime, the sentence should be severe and swift.
4) For any person guilty of murder, the sentence should be banishment for life from the United States and it’s territories. They should be given a copy of “The Man Without A Country” as they are deported to any country that they can find who will take them. If none will take them, they are to be dropped off somewhere at the tip of Anarctica with a few weeks of supplies. If that person is ever found to have re-entered the United States in violation of his sentence of banishment, the person should be put to death immediately by hanging.
Sounds pretty tough but then again, if you or your family had ever been personally impacted by a violent crime, it would sound very fair and, more importantly, it would slowly yet effectively reduce violent crime in our country.
Comment by Aaron Slick Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:18 am
More cops; more cops in the hot zones; zero tolerance all traffic/criminal activity near schools; end probation/”go easy” attitude on 1st time offenders; tighten up school access, tighten up truancy issues and remember: more kids are killed by cars than by guns.
Not mandated, but encouraged: Churches need to join with cops & social agencies to teach parents how to be parents; give kids a reason to do well, define what doing “well” means and teach accountability. In this day of blaming someone else, we’ll probably blame guns, blame George Bush, not enough govt $$$ or no after-school recreation programs instead.
Non-Govt response: this is a perfecty set-up for Jesse Jackson Sr, Oprah and the many inner-city churches to invest their talents, $$$ and energy to reverse this and turn Chicago into the safest large city in the country.
Comment by North of I-80 Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:27 am
Make the sale and ownership of all handguns illegal in Illinois, except for police oficers. Put in some harsh penalities and then enforce them.
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:31 am
YDD has some great points. Extra-curricular activities are so important. My freshman son plays football, basketball and baseball. He starts his day in the weight room at 6 a.m. Before first period at 8 a.m., he can get some study help. Full day of school. Practice or game after school. Home. Dinner. Homework. Shower. Bed. He’s tired, but he has a great sense of accomplishment. And he has absolutely no time to get in trouble.
So my school is doing its bit. I pay through the nose in property taxes, but am happy to do so. I also do my bit by insisting on a certain level of behavior and discipline. I’ve suffered the “I hate yous” from my kid because of it, but I know he knows that discipline is necessary and is the truest demonstration of love.
Maybe I’m just getting old, but the youth culture of the inner city seems to be getting worse. Chicago has a 51% graduation rate — and that’s pretty good for big cities. Detroit has 24%!
Rahm Emanuel has a proposal that would require everyone to graduate from high school then either do at least a year of higher or vocational ed or public service. Let’s do it. It’ll cost a boatload, but so what? It’ll be a better return on investment than Iraq. The War on Terror needs to be fought on our streets.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:32 am
YDD, I think the where’s the parents comment is directed to the fact that most of those doing the shooting are kids. Where are their parent, not the parents of the victims. In a culture where it is a sense of pride to have single parent homes, (see rev. Wright comments), the parents need to be more involved before the kids become shooters.
FYI the same problem with parents exists downstate, but it ends up in drug problems, and teenage pregancy more then shootings.
This is a good example of how Chicago playing by its own rules does not work. Last time I checked having guns near a school was a crime. We know these guns are in and near the schools. If your police cannot enforce the laws on the books now, how will then enforce new ones?
Comment by the Patriot Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:34 am
If this had been posted yesterday, I would have changed my moniker to “NRA Champion” and suggested training and arming all the students. If that is what would work for colleges, why not K-12?
On a serious note, our society undervalues education and so, therefore, do the children. I do not know if there is a government fix for this, but we could certainly start by making the school system reflect its appropriate place in society.
1) Fix the infrastructure. (Serious capital investment, make the schools look like they are places we value. Why would a kid have respect for an institution that the community is allowing to slowly fall into disrepair?)
2) Ensure a reasonable class size.
3) Give teachers real authority and responsibility. (The current system of testing sends the message that teachers cannot be trusted to report student progress. The pressure for social promotion, which still occurs, tells students that performance does not matter.)
4) Get all parents involved in their children’s lives and school. (I have no clue how to accomplish this, but without this piece, the rest may not matter.)
We send messages to our children every day: Society values the things that are shiny, new, and well cared for. If a kid goes to a school that is 75 years old & falling apart in a class with 35 kids and one or two old computers, what message does that send? How would we expect them to act?
Comment by Pot calling kettle Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:34 am
Bill, more adults are killed by physician errors than guns in this country. More adults [and #1 killer of kids] are killed by cars than guns. Your logic would have us making physicians and cars illegal…
Since Chicago and DC have had the strictest gun laws AND sport the worst murder rates, it looks like banning Democratic mayors and gun laws might be worth a try. And within a few weeks, the Supreme Court may end gun-bans anyhow.
Banning guns is the easy feel-good approach but doesn’t have a successful track record.
Comment by North of I-80 Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:39 am
This problem is well beyond government. Look at the group of third graders in Georgia that conspired to attack their teacher.
Government could create jobs programs. But at the end of the day there will still not be enough high paying jobs to entice many youth away from the easy high pay gang related occupations.
Government could increase penalities for using a gun and punish younger offenders as adults. Unfortunetly, the message does not make it to the kids that would get involved in a gang or use a gun on someones else. Many of these kids, just like all teenagers think they are invicible. The police will never catch them or their gang family will protect them from the gun fire from a rival gang. This thinking never seems to work out.
Government could improve education. This is great idea. Year round school. Smaller classrooms. Better trained teachers. Sadly, there will never be enough money for the truly desperate areas that would benefit from these ideas. Also, we would need to shelter the first class of pre-k students in our prefect education system from all of the corrupt older kids leftover from the previously failed system. Note: the third graders in Georgia. These kids would no doubt have a bad influence on the younger kids. And what do you do with the adults that have rejected the social rules. They are having children as we speak that will be caught up in same environment that leads to these shootings.
The problems seem easy to solve with some policy ideas that sound great as part of a campaign speech, but the reality is that we have dug ourselves this hole over the last 100 years. The solution will need to take an incremental policy approach that will likely take over 100 years to implement and be successful.
Wow, I sound rather grim!
Comment by clj Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:42 am
Nothing changes until parents get involved and do their job.
Comment by MOON Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:43 am
The big fallacy in your argument is that there good are reasons to have physicians and cars. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for anyone to own a handgun other than to shoot it.
Don’t bet the farm on the Supreme Court decision. The Justices all have to go to DC to work.
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:44 am
YDD hit it right on the head. Mayor Daley’s treatment of the schools as his personal fiefdom has contributed to the problem; thus, he must share in the blame.
I would not object to bringing back the death penalty for scumbags like these. But the execution can’t be via a needle in the arm in the middle of the night in some Downstate prison. Instead, it should be an old-fashioned hanging at noontime in the Daley Center Plaza, in front of everyone and the TV cameras. The thugs who commit these horrible crimes might actually get the message as a result. Say what you wish about that form of punishment, but I dare say it is more likely to deter such crimes by others in the future than any single gun law will. After all, if these scumbags are willing to commit murder, do you think they giva a damn about violating a gun law?
Don’t get me wrong; some more gun legislation may well be needed here in Illinois, simply to make access to the supply of additional firearms a bit more difficult for gangbangers. But (pardon the pun) I don’t see those proposals as magic bullets.
Comment by fedup dem Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:50 am
It was a despicable to see Mayor Daley and Gov. B grandstanding during the rally. Using the kids as props for the benefit of failed political policies is yet a new low Arnie Duncan, who has seemed to do a credible job was apparently told to encourage kids to skip school to attend this rally. Pretty dumb idea to me.
It has been illegal to own/possess a handgun in Chicago since 1982. What additional gun laws would change the behavior of the gang banging community? Duh, their whole point is to break laws. I do nor recall any of the kids being killed by assault weapons, so why is the Mayor braying about an assault weapon ban?
YDD has some points, but who is going to walk in to a family and tell them they are lousy parents and that their children will now be raised by the government? Who has the right? It’s really a scary concept. The sad part is that all the items proposed by YDD have been tried and have failed to yield results in the past. Hundreds of millions of dollars have gone to to the types of programs proposed and the situation remains intolerable. Something different has to be tried.
Where are all the community outreach programs in these communities? These organizations have stronger ties to the communities to reach the general population. People in the community know who the bad players are. As long as the ‘man/woman’ in the street is unwilling to speak up or is intimidated into keeping quiet, the bangers will rule the streets and law enforcement will be ineffective.
At least Jane Byrne made the attempt to set up ‘house’ in Cabrini Green to raise awareness to the unacceptable living conditions there. What has Daley done other than hiding when the name of Burge comes up?
Comment by Plutocrat03 Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:51 am
- From the article:
“Despite the killings of Ivy and Clarke, school spokesman Vaughn said few shootings have taken place near school grounds during school hours.”
“It’s very rare weapons are found in schools, and we’ve had declining numbers of fights,” he said. “Students will say the one place they feel safe is school.”
Once again, everyone is blaming schools for societal ills. So how did this become the school’s fault? Why is this a school issue? Is it because of the ages involved in these murders? Why are you joining these people into assuming that something has to be done - at the schools?
Schools are easy targets because their governance is divided into so many groups, each can blame another. Why blame yourself when you have been told that there is a government agency and school just around the corner to raise your children and tend to your needs? Isn’t it easier to blame a school than it is to blame your failure to create a functioning family? If there is to be any finger-pointing it should be at the people who finger-point instead of parent. These kids kill because they don’t have a community of parenting.
Listen to the wild demand made by these people. They want an institution they blame for failure to undertake more of their demands? What is their problem? If you want to blame a government agency for failure, you ensure you no longer depend on that agency. It is simply stupid to do otherwise.
The fault of these murders lies with the fault of the community. As we provide Nanny State programs to communities, too often these communities respond by believing they are “owed” these services and a spiral of victimization and need occurs. These people stop problem solving on their own. Too many community issues need individual solutions, yet we have misled these communities into believing that some government program will do their job so that they don’t have to.
Now we are getting to the point where these communities are now blaming government institutions that have NOTHING to do with the problem. We owe our children a safe school environment, and they are getting it. These tragic deaths are not a result of schools. Did you ever consider that perhaps this could be a reason attempts to “fix” schools to address societal ills doesn’t “fix” the problems?
So before we get all juiced up over new school programs, new educational formats, start arguing over class sizes and lunch programs, recognize that these murders is not the fault of our schools, so any proposed school solution, even successfully implemented, will not stop these murders. Don’t fall for the “blame schools” mentality. Time to show tough love! The time has come to demand that these people take responsibility for their own failures and to demand that they start addressing the corrosive lack of parenting that has resulted in these sad deaths.
So don’t break out the old saws about the evils of guns either. There is no wizard to magically make them disappear. There is no magic at all - just lots and lots of work for moms and dads to do.
No government program will replace families and the fundamental societal function they provide.
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 9:52 am
I’m glad Bill has weighed in on more gun regulation in Illinois. Your hero Gov. B did not look so good. At least no one asked him about Levine’s testimony of the size of his defense bills.
I am not a gun enthusiast, but the statistics available show a decrease in violent crime whenever a form of concealed carry is instituted in a state. Why would Illinois be different? Do you really thing the criminal class has fewer weapons because of the laws?
Criminals tend to be a cowardly lot. They love going into a situation believing that they have all the power since all the law abiding citizens are unarmed. What we have created is a shooting gallery of citizens for the thugs among us.
Until we can all have an armed security escort as enjoyed by the Mayor and Governor, we all need the right to defend ourselves as we see fit.
Comment by Plutocrat03 Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:06 am
I disagree with Plutocrat 03…Daley has been on record for years advocating for stricter gun laws…his anguish is visible when young peolpe are gunned down in the streets of the city …there must be an alternative to joining a gang for inner city youth as a form of identity and safety…YDD’s solutions #s 2-7 will go a long way to turning things around…
Comment by Anonymous45 Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:07 am
Bill;
1) Christian Scientists
2) Amish
3) hunters [millions of them but not enough to thin the deer population apparently]
I do agree with last portion of your 1st post; harsh penalties + enforce.
Comment by North of I-80 Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:09 am
If I’m not mistaken, these are NOT deaths occuring on school grounds, but simply murder victims who were 18 or under, living in Chicago and therefore CPS students. How in the hell can someone blame the schools for this?
As VM said, this is a community problem. It is a result of poor parenting and a rampant gang problem. So, the answer is to put even more money into schools that gangbangers are ruining? I don’t think so. How are a few more teachers, or books, or programs going to cure students’ problems in their homes and neighborhoods?
Government can only police the community in RESPONSE to gang violence. Gang members are for the most part (or at least start as) children. Who is responsible for the behavior of children? Could it … maybe … be their parents?
Comment by Snidely Whiplash Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:10 am
Heh, I wish I knew the answer. When I was in high school, I had to walk thru metal detectors. I understood why because some knucklehead would show up at school with their weapon and start shooting at the guy he had a beef outside of school Of course even that didn’t work if it wasn’t a gun they brought to school it was knife. Thankfully I’ve never heard anyone get stabbed.
For the violence of that day that was government’s answer. In other districts around the country the answer it zero tolerance where a student could be suspended for even fighting back. Assuming this is just fisticuffs here.
Government isn’t the only ones who can solve the problem, gun control or not. I think it’s appropriate to step up police patrols around schools or violent hot spots. Parents I hope can keep their kids in check. Though if they weren’t around enough to raise their kids and they try to take control during the teenage years, it’s a little too late.
Comment by Levois Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:20 am
While I agree with many of the comments above and there are many ideas voiced that are fresh approaches that have some merit, I don’t think that the government can do anything to prevent the violance.
Gun laws are not the answer, not in any case. As statisitcs show many of the perpetrators are repeat offenders, they are not going to stop just because they are not supposed to have the gun they are using.
The real issues behind this are societal issues and I don’t know if schools are equipped or funded to make a difference. We cannot approach this from the mindset of what we would do on this side of the tracks. It has to be approached from the mindset of those on the other side of the tracks. It is sad but life means less there than respect. Disrespect is punishable by death even if it means that the one disrespected spends the rest of their life in jail. This is all they have. They are not in school or they are not doing well in school, they have no future so taking their future away is no punishment, all they have is time on their hands and that leads to trouble. They live in a culture where the elders probably have little education so there is no assistance there or pressure to get an education.
How does one change a culture that has developed from poverty, despair, ignorance, and abuse of social programs? (It pays more to have more kids even if you cannot support or control more kids.) I disagree slightly that family is not in the picture. It might not be societies ideal family but there is a structure seemingly dominated by a mother figure. Parents cannot always control their children, this is evident across social strata so I don’t favor charging the parent equally with the child, unless it can be proven that they contributed in some way, ie; they left a loaded gun laying around, or accessible to the child.
Maybe tougher sentencing would keep the perpetrators locked up longer so they could not offend again, I don’t know but that can’t be the only answer. Is there enough money and other resources available over the long haul to change a culture? I don’t know. Can this even be fixed or are we just going to have to live with the statistics along with the statisitcs of drug overdose, suicides, political corruption, declining moral values, greed, and everything else that comes with an aging society/culture/country?
Comment by Irish Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:21 am
to Anonymous45
The Daley administration talks a good game, but does nothing buy windowdressing. The city does not even do a good charging offenders with gun crimes when the catch people. So what new regulation do you want to put into effect that will make a change in the behavior of the bad element?
The state statistics show that the City of Chicago is near the bottom of the rate of property taxation based on the value of the property. Chicago charges as little as 1/3 of the property tax percentage (1.1% vs 3+% in some suburbs) if the City needs money for the schools and social programs it should raise the money itself.
It is disingenuous to cry for statewide money for local problems when you don’t try to fund the solutions locally. All Daley is doing is blaming others for problems he does not want to handle himself.
Comment by Plutocrat03 Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:36 am
I agree with Irish. Gun laws aren’t the answer. In Chicago, no one, except police officers and aldermen are allowed to own handguns. Chicago has a higher murder rate (number of murders per 100,000 people) than New York, Los Angeles, Dallas, Houston, Denver, Phoenix, and Miami. New York has more than twice as many people as Chicago, but, during four of the last six years, Chicago had more murders. The criminals go to other towns, buy guns, and bring them to Chicago, knowing that the law-abiding people can’t defend themselves.
In 1960, about 10% of American babies were born out of wedlock. In 1991, the percentages were 65%, for Blacks; 30%, for Hispanics; and 25%, for Whites. When only one parent raises a child, it’s harder to teach the kid good morals, especially since many single mothers work two or three jobs, to make ends meet. When parents aren’t with their kids, many of their teenagers become criminals. Government can’t do much to change this. Each American should be more responsible and not conceive children until they’re married. Single fathers should show that care more about their kids by paying child support and spending more time with their kids.
Comment by PhilCollins Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:36 am
The best solution is to move the unorganized criminals, gangs, into organized criminals, city and state government. Mayor Daley and Hot Rod surely can find the money in a shoebox to hire them all.
Comment by Enemy of the State Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:40 am
Is it even legal for a minor to possess or use a gun without parental/guardian permission and direct supervision?
Most importantly, as per corrections professionals, the penalties for using a gun in a crime should be severe, so most criminals will choose less dangerous weapons.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 10:50 am
The problem won’t be truly fixed until the people in the problem areas decide to fix them. We can talk all day about the city’s response (and it should respond with the services it has) and how the state needs to step in (which it shouldn’t), but top-down solutions have a superficial effect.
Only a grassroots movement to take back their neighborhoods by the people living in these areas will create a lasting change in the culture.
Comment by Fan of the Game Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 11:16 am
#
- Louis G. Atsaves - Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 8:44 am:
Chicago has the toughest gun laws in the country. No one is allowed to possess a firearm in Chicago unless you are licensed to do so, such as a police officer.
sorry, you are wrong on this. it’s not “such as a police officer” cause I have several guns in my house. you can register, and possess, guns other than handguns in Chicago. in fact, if you had a handgun prior to the ban, or inherit one, you can have a handgun.
the police aren’t the only ones. many of us
have a license and have hunters in the house!
Comment by Amy Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 11:24 am
On the main issue, it’s sort of pathetic that the issue is framed as public school students getting killed. it’s an emotional grabber that does not work for me. from what little I have read, the shooters are, or were, public school students. so what does that say?
it’s a big problem that needs many solutions, not just from the schools.
also, is that the kind of crowd that will change the minds of suburban legislators who are not voting for more gun regulations? probably not.
especially father st. sabina.
Comment by Amy Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 11:30 am
Guns don’t kill people, children kill people.
Comment by NRA reminds us that... Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 11:52 am
How many of these guns are legally acquired and being used by those owners? I’m willing to bet that the shooters don’t have FOID cards and aren’t the legal owners. Tougher gun laws will not stop these illiterate dirtbags from acquiring and using weapons. More laws are not what we need. The ones on the books now can’t be enforced. The community activists, clergy and parents all want more laws and the politicians are more than happy to oblige so it looks like they are doing something.
Parents need to get involved and teach their children right from wrong and the appropriate ways to deal with life. People complain when kids are disciplined in schools, thus tying the hands of the staff, but still expect the schools to do the parenting. PARENTS MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.
Comment by What can I say? Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 11:54 am
I liked what YDD posted because his idea to deal with it wasn’t just one prong- it addressed many of the issues as a whole. Issues that probably have a synergistic effect on each other.
Not JUST schools.
Not JUST police.
Not JUST social programs.
Not JUST families.
While personal viewpoint is probably much more conservative than YDD, I respect the wisdom that YDD showed by recognizing that a broad approach is necessary, even if our philosophies differ slightly on how to get there.
Comment by Freezeup Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 11:56 am
The question of how to solve gun violence in the U.S. must involve major changes in the gun laws. The ease with which people in our country can acquire a gun is shocking to many from Europe and Asia. In most countries in these parts of the world, gun ownership is much more tightly controlled, if not forbidden altogehter, and the amount of gun violence and homicides is dramatically lower than here in the U.S.
And for those who hold their right to bear arms so close to the heart, I’d encourage them to pack up all their guns, rent an apartment on the West side of Chicago, or any other violence ridden neighborhood in the U.S., and tell us all what they think after a couple months.
Comment by B Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 12:08 pm
Nobody wants to be a victim of a crime. The kids know the problem’s not the guns, it’s the gang credo that makes kids pray on others. Glorification of violence and weapons in the media and entertainment “industry” (I think of it more as a perversion) and peer pressure is what indoctrinates young people in ways no amount of education can overcome.
Meanwhile the authorities stand by and blame otherwise law-abiding citizens for the problem! Citizens who don’t want to have their civil rights violated by further restrictions - or outright prohibitions - against what’s guaranteed them in the US Constitution.
Firearms are prohibited now in Chicago; they have been for almost 40 years. You can’t legally buy a firearm in Chicago, or ammunition. What’s happening is the same thing that went on with alcohol when that was prohibited back in the last century, the same thing that’s happening with drugs right now all over this country: what’s illegal is “in fashion” and the price we all pay is far higher because of the prohibitions in place, the money that criminals can make by providing what’s “in demand” to those too weak (or, let’s face it - stupid!) to behave in a law-abiding, responsible manner!
Perhaps if our esteemed, elected officials could begin by setting an example of how to behave in a law-abiding and responsible manner, we could begin to turn the current travesty in government around?
Comment by Steve Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 12:40 pm
Passing more gun control laws is not going to do a damn bit of good, Chicago already has some of the strictest gun control laws in country and they have had little effect. To Bill, I would say that self defense, target shooting, hunting, ect are very legitimate reasons for people to own handguns. YDD makes a some good points, but I dont think that a living wage law would make much of difference and it could worsen the economic condition in some of the neighbor hoods that are most effect by teen violence, as you mention the unemployment rate of blacks and Hispanics in many neighbors is already very high and if you make more costly to high them, by forcing business to pay them wages that in many cases might be higher than the value of their labor particularly if we are talking about unskilled/low skilled labor, you are going to see even fewer jobs in those areas. The people that have jobs and keep them will benefits but those that are unemployed or lose their jobs will see their situation worsened as jobs become more harder to find.
Comment by RMW Stanford Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 12:44 pm
B - 12:08
Let’s see, those people from Europe, would they be from like France, US gun owners went to war and liberated them cause all they had was champagne to throw at the Nazis. England, what, the IRA didn’t have weapons? Italy, dos guys wit da fedora hats and da big limos don’t have gats? Does anyone remember the Red Brigade? Bosnia, Serbia, why were we there? I seem to remember a lot of residents having guns when the Vietnam war was going on. China, you can’t even have the internet in China. So where are these people from that are amazed? Look at all of the violance all across the world in Europe, Africa, and Asia and it boilds downh to the people that have guns are trying to take what they want from the people that don’t have guns.
The right to bear arms in this country evolved from our ancestor’s experience that when only certain people are allowed or illegally own guns then those people tend to control those who don’t. This is NOT a gun control issue. If all the gun control laws that are already on the books were enforced and followed we wouldn’t be talking about this. What some folks don’t understand is the people that perpatrate these crimes DO NOT CARE that they are violating the law. They are going to do what they want, gun control or not. I would expect that the person who moves to the West Side with their guns probably would not get robbed more than once.
Comment by Irish Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 12:55 pm
2 April 2008
Dear Mayor Daley:
I work in downtown Chicago, and read about the steady death toll at the hands of Chicago gang members. Just like you, I am a citizen concerned about violence in our city. The purpose of this letter is not to question the ethics or legality of pulling school kids out of Chicago Public schools and spending taxpayer dollars to bus them downtown to participate in a political rally. Rather, this letter is to pose some pointed and important questions.
I saw the video of your speech at the Thompson Center, and I am hoping you can clarify some things for me. You said:
“Why is it when you sell guns you don’t need a license to sell guns?”
I am totally confused by that statement, because to sell guns in Illinois or any other state, you must have a valid Federal Firearms License authorized by the BATFE. Surely you know about these licenses, because in the past you have filed charges against lawful Illinois firearm retailers in an attempt to put them out of business and/ or to hold them accountable for the criminal acts of others.
But perhaps you meant “why don’t you need a license to buy a gun, or to own a gun?” Well, pursuant to the IL FOID Act of 1968, in order to buy or even simply possess any firearm or ammunition in this state, you need a license called a FOID card. This has been law for FORTY years! Surely you didn’t mean to say “why don’t you need a license to buy/own a gun.” I mean, really….don’t you own guns yourself? Don’t you have a valid FOID license? Don’t the members of your armed security possess FOID licenses?
You mentioned too that “every child has to have a license to drive a car.” Well, you are correct, but only if they are to drive legally like you or me. But you know as well as I that some times, people will drive cars without licenses, or insurance, or registration, or whatever else they need to drive lawfully. In this way, so too will people illegally steal guns, or sell them on the street, or possess them illegally – in violation of numerous state laws (including the FOID Act) or city ordinances (including the handgun ban of 1982). Not to mention that some of them will break laws against the carrying of guns, the shooting of guns within city limits, assault with a weapon, or murder. So your position on this has me quite dumbfounded, even though I’m pretty smart and actually graduated high school (albeit not one of the fine Chicago schools that Arne Duncan oversees). Please, think about this…do you suppose that if we passed a law requiring a license in order to commit murder, that unlicensed gang bangers would quit murdering each other simply because they didn’t lawfully possess a license? Of course, that is absurd, but that is exactly what you are asking for by calling for stricter gun laws.
What on earth you think that the passage of more laws will somehow control gang bangers and other problem people who have little hope in life and don’t care about living lawful lives? What on earth makes you think that those of us who witnessed your speech think that way? I noticed that most people at the rally yesterday were African-American. Are you just telling those African-American communities what they want to hear….that their sons and daughters, their parenting, their drug use, their inability to clean up their communities, etc. is not the problem, but rather, the problem is always guns, guns, guns? Maybe it’s just that guns are easy, because guns don’t vote. Well, I am a lawful gun owner, and I do vote. Not to mention that I am fed up with your more-of-the-same failed policies that ignore real problems.
Mayor Daley, assuming you are a supporter of strict gun laws, you simply must remember that you (along with Mayor Fenty of DC) actually “enjoy” the strictest anti-gun laws in the entire nation. And you know you do….DC and Chicago are nationally known for having the strictest gun laws in the USA. Yet what comes in to your mind when you think about DC and Chicago, and their strict gun laws, and yet you see the tremendously high level of violence in those two cities? Don’t you wonder why the states with liberal gun laws often have the least violence, and the states and cities with the tightest gun laws have the most? Don’t you think it possible that strict gun laws simply don’t reduce crime in communities? Is it even preposterous to consider that strict gun laws might even raise crime rates? I just wonder if you ever think about those things in private, when you are not in front of a camera or microphone. Surely, you must think about that from time to time. Surely…you must.
Finally, what are you going to do should the Supreme Court rule beyond any doubt that the constitution protects the right of every law-abiding adult American citizen to possess guns, including handguns and the semi-automatic firearms you call “assault weapons”, in their homes? Will you still, brazenly and undaunted, want to pass laws banning guns? Will you spend precious and limited tax-payer monies to futilely fight against a Supreme Court ruling? What would you do if Chicago’s strict handgun law were challenged in court and overturned because it was found to violate citizen’s constitutional rights? Would you then FINALLY move your attention away from more gun laws, and toward the real causes of root of the violence that plagues certain Chicago communities?
It is my sincere hope that you would.
Comment by GFan Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 1:14 pm
If Tibet had a 2nd Amendment (and sufficient resources) before 1950, they probably wouldn’t have been crushed by China.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 1:21 pm
++If Tibet had a 2nd Amendment (and sufficient resources) before 1950, they probably wouldn’t have been crushed by China.++
You clearly know nothing about Tibetan Buddhism.
Comment by montrose Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 1:24 pm
Montrose, you completely missed (or deliberately ignored) the allegorical point.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 1:48 pm
===I would expect that the person who moves to the West Side with their guns probably would not get robbed more than once.===
You’re probably right. If they drew down the first time they would most likely be dead.
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 1:50 pm
“What is the appropriate government response?”
Refurbish Wrigley Field using public funds.
– SCAM
so-called “Austin Mayor”
http://austinmayor.blogspot.com
Comment by so-called "Austin Mayor" Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 1:55 pm
++Montrose, you completely missed (or deliberately ignored) the allegorical point.++
I neither ignored nor missed your allegorical point. My point is that your attempt to draw comparisons between historical Tibet and today by claiming that a theocracy based in non-violence was but a 2nd Amendment away from taking up arms in 1950 doesn’t work.
Comment by montrose Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 1:56 pm
I doubt that Vanilla Man 1:05 is really Vanilla man.
Three sure fire solutions to the problem:
1) responsible parents
2) responsible parents
3) responsible parents
Comment by Silent Majority Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 1:59 pm
I loved YDD’s post. I think you could add educating people in the communities about the social programs that are there to help them on their feet. I think that it is necassary for people to know about the programs that can help them. A lot of people don’t trust government at all and a relationship has to be built, be it community organizers or groups.
Comment by My Opinion N Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 1:59 pm
While VanMan may be misguided at times he is by no means ignorant and is able to express himself quite well.
Only dummies and illiterates need to use racial slurs.
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 2:01 pm
I would like to see the RICO laws used against street gangs as well as charging all known members of a street gang as accomplices when the gang commits violent acts.
I would also like to see violent or disruptive students placed in alternative schools or simply expelled if they are making no progress toward graduation, rather than being a menace to their usual neighborhood school.
One of the issues that many teachers are seeing is that their students are frequently second or third generation gang members, so there is no home preference for a gang-free lifestyle.
I don’t think more gun laws are needed (or useful) to stop this, but I do think a mandatory life sentence for use of a gun to commit murder would be a good law to have on the books if it were actually used.
Lastly, while it sounds horrendous to say that homicide is in the top three killers of children, part of that is because other child killers of the past have been vanquished such as appendicitis, communicable disease deaths… That leaves accidents (vehicle and household) and murder. I’m actually curious what the other one is.
Comment by cermak_rd Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 2:01 pm
Cermak Road- I agree that RICO laws should be implemented. It is a matter of inadequate law enforcement resources.
One of the ways street gangs are dismantled is drug law enforcement. A most important recent event that effects street gang enforcement is the cutting of federal Byrne Grants that fund drug enforcement task forces throughout the state. I forget the amount but it is a relatively small amount of money when you are talking government budgets- about $2 million I believe- but it will drastically reduce drug enforcement in Illinois next year.
The people that these drug agents arrest are often violent and are responsible for many types of violent crime, including weapon use by felons.
Comment by Freezeup Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 2:23 pm
Montrose,
Tibet was non-violent primarly because they were in isolated mountains for thousands of years without predator threats. China was also mostly Buddhist until crushed by Communists in 1949, just after being crushed by Japan in WWII, after being crushed by Britain in the 1800’s.
Apparently, people don’t enjoy being crushed or subjected over and over, which is why our Constitutional Bill of Rights strongly protected individual freedoms, rather than establishing a national religion of non-violence.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 2:23 pm
HEY!
WHO’S USING MY NAME!
Kevin?
Will you please do us all the pleasure of deleting the phoney VanillaMan please?!
Enough with the smears!
PS Thanks Bill and everyone else questioning this fake obviously not VanillaMan!
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 2:37 pm
…and Bill - what’s this about ‘misguided’?
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 2:40 pm
Freezeup,
Cracking down on gangs won’t solve the problem of drug addiction, only raise the price and the profit, attracting more risk takers, raising both the stakes and the level of violence, while increasing the cost to taxpayers for more jails.
We’ve got the highest incarceration rate in the world, so are our youth really born bad or our systems dysfunctional? Are we reacting instead of saving money with prevention?
Drug laws are just a way of creating and funding excess patronage jobs that waste taxes and encourage more people to become dependent on government, while increasing the financial reward for lawbreakers.
Tax and regulate is far wiser than bans, as we learned in Prohibition. Our drug laws are destroying our economy by sending money overseas, often supporting those hostile to us.
Also, it’s well known our youth have self-control issues when they go overseas and can drink legally because they weren’t given partial and gradual freedoms to learn to be responsible, so they go nuts.
Comment by Anonymous Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 2:48 pm
rico laws and charging all members of a street gang for one members violent act. we spend 1.3billion a year on prisons in Ill now. I dont know if we could afford to lock up everyone. I wish I had an answer but maybe we should be asking why isnt this a problem in franffort or buffalo Grove or carbondale but is such a huge problem in chicago, and no Im not implying race eithier.
Comment by fed up Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 2:55 pm
TG Blaggo killed CeaseFire….think of all that money wasted on the kids.
Comment by Wild Bill Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 3:08 pm
To Amy:
I stand corrected then. But I still don’t see a bunch of licensed hunters gunning folks down in the streets of Chicago. More tough gun laws just do not seem to be the answer.
Nor am I enamored with the “hug the bad guys” until they feel the love and turn good comments that I see others posting here. The kids who want to go to school and learn and the parents who want to see their kids learn ought to have the opportunity to do so in a safe environment.
But there is an element out there that (1) does not want to go to school and be educated and (2) has parents who aren’t all that interested in seeing them going to school and getting an education. What do we do with these losers? More social programs after decades of failure?
Comment by Louis G. Atsaves Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 3:51 pm
2:48 and fed up- We certainly disagree. I don’t know what line of work you are in, but I’ve improved more than one neighborhood by putting thugs in prison for drug related violent crimes. I also think that until some of the other problems are solved, even if illegal drugs were legal and the bad police weren’t engaging in a vast conspiracy to enrich themselves and the drug dealers, (insert snicker here), those same thugs would be taking advantage of innocents some other way.
Again, THIS is why I liked YDD’s post: It adressed the problem of VIOLENCE from many different directions. No one “solution” will be a solution! Prevention by itself won’t do it. Drug enforcement won’t do it! Certainly gun control won’t do it. Nor will locking up half of the population. Nor will education. Nor will jobs or free government handouts. It has to be a balanced approach.
That being said, locking up thugs is MY job. I’ll do my part. I can only trust that teachers, clergy, social workers, parents, the Mayor of Chicago and the Governor of Illinois will do thier part.
Lastly, if it is all about money, how do you explain meth enforcement? Meth cooks spend 23 of every 24 hours cooking meth for their own use. They rarely profit, for them it is all about combining toxic chemicals to create a substance that ravages their body. In Illinois, there are drug units in every geography to investigate meth crimes and clean up labs. Meth enforcement is a money pit- there are no ill gotton gains to seize, there are no vehicles or properties to seize. The government engages in meth inforcement because it ravages people. It destroys them. They do it because the labs are dangerous and because meth making creates toxic by-products. Not because it is profitable for the government.
Again, we obviously have different points of view. Still I feel like I have done something to help here in the real world rather than theorizing about philosophical “what if’s” and concocting government conspiracies to explain criminal behavior of individuals. I’m good with that.
Comment by Freezeup Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 4:39 pm
Louis G., I’m just letting you know what the laws are. I’m not advocating one way or the other on new gun laws.
I am advocating that the dialogue not just be about the kids getting shot, but about the kids doing the shooting cause many of the shooters are also products of Chicago schools. and in that regard, I am for strong action in Juvenile Court and elsewhere. too many times kids are given station adjustments by police. first time offender action may prevent repeat offender action and may stop the growth of murderers.
Comment by Amy Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 5:33 pm
YDD,I would add:
12) Decriminalize and regulate the drug trade. Take it out of the hands of the street gangs and the violence, profit motive, underage use, black market firearms trade, reduce prison population and generate new revenue with one piece of legislation.
Gun laws haven’t worked in Chicago. The reflection of society point that VanillaMan made about public schools is an excellent one, but it’s the black market economy in poor neighborhoods that is responsible for the most violence.
Comment by 47th Ward Wednesday, Apr 2, 08 @ 8:08 pm
Freezeup,
Nobody’s denying drug addiction isn’t a serious problem, but Prohibition and bans are contrary to our Democracy and a politically simplistic and short-sighted solution to a far more complex problem.
Politicians created the drug laws, not police, whose only job is to simple enforce the laws… regardless of how shortsighted.
You temporarily stopped a local problem, but after decades of such efforts, the problem isn’t going away because it’s too profitable and it’s getting worse because more money increases both violence (here and abraod) and crime to feed addictions. Our short-sighted laws encourage generation after generation of new lawbreakers to engage in violence and robbery instead of directly addressing the real problem of addiction.
Tax, license, and fine for abuses would eliminate nearly all the drug violence and robbery, only leaving us with the original drug addiction problem, which is much easier to solve if you know who has a problem and needs help.
We’ve already proven how much more effective this approach is with alcohol and nicotine (which is more physically addictive than crack cocaine).
Everyone knows young males (15-35) commit most crime, so yes they would still find mischief, but that’s far better than tempting them with huge profits to break laws, increasing violence and endless robbery to feed expensive addictions.
Sure, we’ve got technology to turn our nation into a police state, but that’s not the Democracy of our Founding Fathers, which was based on trying to maximize individual freedom by first protecting individuals from governments abusing their awesome powers. It’s also not the Constitution those of us who served in our military swore to support and defend.
BTW, with the taxes, license fees, and fines for regulated drugs we could still hire law enforcement without increasing the burden on taxpayers, especially when we don’t need so many expensive jails locking up more of our youth than any other developed country in the world. Our youth can’t be that bad and corrupt, but a dysfunctional, short-sighted system could tempt them to become that way. What a tragic waste of resources and youth.
Comment by Anonymous Friday, Apr 4, 08 @ 1:36 pm