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* From Rick Pearson’s story on the Illinois state GOP’s weekend meeting…
Republican National Committeeman Richard Porter drew the most audience criticism as he sought to focus on the need for post-election party unification and “respecting other perspectives” while calling for “no more RINO crap,” using the acronym Republican In Name Only, which conservatives use to attack moderates.
“We have to recognize a lot of people see us as angry white people that cannot be trusted to govern,” Porter said. “Now we know that’s not true, but they bought it. All right. We have to recognize the face we present to the public is who we are.” […]
“Republicans come in many flavors,” Porter said, prompting a man to reply, “No. One-flavor Republicans,” while a woman yelled, “You guys quashed good candidates.”
“One-flavor Republicans” is the very definition of an exclusive private club. Despite the protestations, however, party leadership remains intact.
Make sure to read the whole thing.
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 8:53 am
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Good on Porter for speaking directly about this. Someone has to, even if it means accepting some degree of heat. They’ve spent 30* years blowing up a bubble. There’s no slow or gentle way to pop it.
Comment by vern Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:01 am
What a mess. On the one hand, you have leaders saying the Republican Party of IL needs to be more open, more inclusive, and less angry.
On the other hand, the faithful who showed up seem to want to exclude any leaders who might suggest inclusion, rather than exclusion, is the solution to their losing ways.
Just because an angry and mean minority has gravitated to the party, that does not mean that validating that anger is a solution to the problems the party faces.
Perhaps the leaders need to lead the party away from anger and meanness. Doing so may serve the purpose of growing the party by culling the chaff, to create room for a more bountiful harvest.
Comment by H-W Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:03 am
To the post,
The idea of old, angry, white, rural folks as what the GOP is, the real-real problem is… they like it that way.
They like it. They like it to continue to be that way.
It’s as though a cultists’ norm is the binding thread, and any talk of changing that to a past where there was a big tent… well, that’s that R_N_… “garbage”
It was NOT an accident that an old, angry, white, rural Darren Bailey got 56+% in a 6 candidate field… Bailey is the ILGOP, and the base identifies with Bailey, in a way that before it was a single-digit Dan Proft candidacy… now it’s a majority Bailey nomination…
… warmly embracing homogenous folks that “hate” She-Caw-Go… and won’t support thoughts of pro-choice, SSM, and 2A restrictions, and it better be Christian centric.
The irony is there were ZERO changes, even with Tracy.
Then again, Tracy has been a supporter of Mary Miller, Donald Trump, and refusing to fully defend and support Adam Kinzinger…
… all above is passive and tepid… but there’s no pushback or defense towards a normalcy, but everything possible to pacify the… “… angry white people that cannot be trusted to govern,”
Well done, Chairman Tracy.
Well done.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:06 am
“…angry white people that cannot be trusted to govern,”
That’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
The base think they are right and it’s not their fault they lost.
Comment by Bruce( no not him) Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:10 am
The people that need to learn something from this election cycle have learned nothing. This was it the first time in several cycles where a “real Conservative” was on the top of the ticket. All of the angry folks who bemoaned rino’s like Edgar and Rauner finally had their guy. These are the people that believe there is a silent majority of secret republicans and conservatives that would happily come out and vote in Illinois if given the chance to vote for a real conservative.
Turn out was pathetic, and the real conservative got his clock cleaned by one of the most progressive Governor’s in America.
One would would think after such a trouncing the self reflection would be real. Perhaps those secret conservatives don’t exist. We gave it a shot, and now its time to go back to more moderate flavored republicans.
Nope… no self reflection, just finger pointing, and blaming of the establishment. The “rising stars” in the ILGOP the ones that just lost all of their elections are part of the perpetual victim class. And why wouldn’t they be, Donald Trump became president by complaining about all the things that personally hurt him.
They can blame the establishment, they can blame the rinos, they can blame unfair maps. but the facts are Darren Bailey and his ilk are too extreme for this state, and if this is the party now, the party of victims who refuse to take responsibility for their landslide losses, then i’m out.
signed, a life long moderate republican
Comment by MaddyMoon Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:13 am
One more thing.
The folks that bemoan…
“Then, well, it’s just ‘Democrat Lite’ and why even have a party”
The Reagan Rule kind of addressed that, friend.
If ya can’t take 80% wins, you like don’t understand politics at all.
Good on Illinois voters to see these folks as they are, as they want to be seen, and reject them at all levels.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:18 am
-One-flavor Republicans-
Rocky Road it is.
Comment by Ron Burgundy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:20 am
===Good on Illinois voters to see these folks as they are, as they want to be seen, and reject them at all levels.===
Except in our more rural counties where voters continue to flock to an ideology that allows them to blame anyone and everyone else without providing any solutions or any real hope beyond the notion that progress can be accomplished once the targets of their aggression are dealt with.
The GOP sees this as a base that is easy to maintain and does nothing to fix it.
Comment by Candy Dogood Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:24 am
Porter was one of the architects of the Irvin and slate debacle. They lost every race. (And in the process wiping out two all-stars in Tom Demmer and Avery B.) He’s also a huge Trumpy. Porter should stick to mergers and acquistions.
Comment by watchful eye Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:25 am
=== These are the people that believe there is a silent majority of secret republicans and conservatives that would happily come out and vote in Illinois if given the chance to vote for a real conservative.===
This is right. And they’re also the people who believe the actual majority of Illinois voters doesn’t exist. It’s a closed information loop that got built over the course of decades. Cracking it open won’t be pretty.
Comment by vern Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:30 am
–Republican State Central Committee meeting at the Bolingbrook Golf Club–
First, Will County has become the southern Illinois politically of the suburbs.
The fringe elements, who aren’t fringe in the party anymore, have been organizing and planning their attendance at this event for weeks.
The party takeover is complete. Mr. Tracy knows the general public will never accept what the ILGOP has become. He has to try to at least publicly pretend this isn’t what the ILGOP is now. His own words betray what he really thinks about this though;
“I think a lot of them are fairly new and **we want them to not go away** with that first election loss and give up.”
Comment by TheInvisibleMan Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:33 am
===a lot of people see us as angry white people that cannot be trusted to govern===
LOL, ya think?
Comment by Nick Name Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:36 am
===(And in the process wiping out two all-stars in Tom Demmer and Avery B.)===
Neither are all stars
It should be noted that both Demmer and Bourne continually and purposely voted, like Ken Dunkin, to hurt Illinois’ most need and most vulnerable.
Celebrating them or wishing them higher aspirations after an entire General Assembly of damage to Illinois is not a rising star, it’s burying a state for an agenda.
Good riddance
The party needs to move away from such as those Raunerites too.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:41 am
Rocky Road for the one flavor win. Thanks for the laughs.
With so much losing these folks might eventually get tired. Unfortunately, hate is a strong energizer. Watch for their next moves, hate on this scale doesn’t tire quickly.
Comment by froganon Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:42 am
“a lot of people see us as angry white people that cannot be trusted to govern”
Truer words have never been spoken.
Comment by Huh? Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:42 am
A big part of the problem is that these guys don’t want to govern. They just want to tear everything down. They have no positive policy ideas or proposals, just disgust for the current state of American culture.
How does the ILGOP fix their problems? They don’t. The Bailey crowd doesn’t want to fix things. They only want to keep screaming about everything they dislike, e.g., urban hellholes.
Years ago Garry Wills wrote a book on the distinction between conservatives and what he called right-wingers. There are very few of the former left and much greater numbers of the latter in Illinois now.
Comment by Friendly Bob Adams Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:47 am
=== Except in our more rural counties where voters continue to flock to an ideology that allows them to blame anyone and everyone else without providing any solutions or any real hope beyond the notion that progress can be accomplished once the targets of their aggression are dealt with.
The GOP sees this as a base that is easy to maintain and does nothing to fix it.===
The first rule I’m saving folks from a cult is those “victims” realize they’re in a cult.
I have no time for folks who think they’re party of this “better” country while celebrating cult thinking.
My in-law uncle, of course, but…
The party needs to reprogram the cultists, those who can’t be helped, you leave them behind.
Where they gonna go?
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:51 am
If loudly and endlessly complaining about everything wrong with Illinois was the equivalent of actually making government work - Republicans would have cleaned up in the last election.
Comment by train111 Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:54 am
There’s a right way and a wrong way to do things, and Bolingbrook exhibited the wrong way by the self-proclaimed “grassroots”.
I understand the frustration of the rank-and-file Republicans over the results of the election, with calls for Chairman Tracy to step down.
But the mob mentality of these literal party crashers Saturday who thought they could disrupt the governing body of the Illinois Republican Party without showing respect let alone decorum gets them nowhere.
To Chairman Tracy’s & the state central committee’s credit, the meeting attendees had their say in 90-second public comments per person which, according to POLITICO, took two hours given 60 people spoke.
The only thing that happened from Saturday in Bolingbrook is it made people who actually learned something in 2022 election cycle look good for their not being there.
Where was Dan Proft? He was at the Army-Navy game in Philly honoring our country.
Where was 2022 IL-11 Republican candidate Catalina Lauf? One thing is certain, she wasn’t in Bolingbrook Saturday.
Something also certain about Lauf in spite of her shortcomings, she’s playing by the GOP establishment’s playbook: Her Defense of Freedom PAC reported over $283K cash-on-hand through Nov 28 per FEC filing last week, and local school board candidates begin filing their nominating petitions today.
Lauf has already started giving money to spring candidates, including an Aurora alderwoman from the 8th Ward.
While Lauf got her clock cleaned by Congressman Bill Foster in last month’s election by 13 percentage points and she’s still a good 4 to 6 years of maturing away from winning a major election, at 29 years, 7 months, she showed a lot more maturity by not blaming others for her loss like Peggy Hubbard, Tom DeVore and many others did Saturday in Bolingbrook, people in some cases twice her age.
And for the record, if I lived in IL-11, I would have voted for Foster over Lauf and asked my friends in IL-11 to do the same.
The Republican rank-and-file need to be working through their county organizations, through their county Republican chairmen, to implement real positive grassroots change.
While intentions of most attending the Bolingbrook meeting Saturday were noble, it did nothing to advance their positions.
Come March 19, 2024 (next scheduled primary day), we’ll see if anyone learned anything about the 2022 elections.
Comment by John Lopez Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 9:56 am
Too little and too late.
Comment by Norseman Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:04 am
Catalina Lauf is a conspiracy theorist and an insurrection apologist.
Just because one gives money or “seems normal”… it changes nothing to who she is… and shouldn’t be celebrated now, then, or likely ever… until Lauf comes to terms to what she has become.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:05 am
=== The idea of old, angry, white, rural folks ===
To be fair, it seems to be a lot of middle-aged, suburban Karen-types.
Change is hard. Instead of evolving to join their more forward-thinking neighbors, they have formed a cult that is doubling down on conspiracies.
Imagine if, as people realized cigarette smoking was harmful not just to themselves but to others around them, especially in the suburbs, there was a small band of smokers who decided they were going to 1) smoke more, 2) protest school boards and city halls that banned smoking on their property, and 3) angrily mobbed a GOP state council meeting after their 100% pro-tobacco candidate got creamed, blasting the GOP for caving in to the woke anti-smoking crowd by considering joining Dems in supporting anti-smoking measures, after decades of standing up for smokers’ rights.
Honestly, this would be the best way to explain it to the Awake types if you were the GOP.
Let the Adcocks of the world argue that requiring masks indoors in public buildings is nothing like banning smoking indoors in public buildings.
Comment by Juvenal Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:08 am
The Far Right, Fash-adjacent wing of the Republican Party seems content to polarize literally everyone else against them. Porter is no RINO. Don’t give him an excuse to act like one. You’re only about 30% of the state, at most.
Comment by Arsenal Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:23 am
If you look at the demographics, particularly downstate, the GOP candidates of the Bailey and DeVore type are fighting for the biggest slice of a rapidly dwindling pie. The angry old white guys are dying off and their kids moving away, concentrating what remains but also reducing it in size. Without opening up their party to more neurotypical members, and by not rejecting the extremists, the downwards trend is dooming them to irrelevance.
Comment by Give Us Barabbas Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:24 am
“Also attending were party activists that included a man wearing a Donald Trump dummy on his shoulders…”
OMG the pic!
Comment by George Ryan Reynolds Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:25 am
Send thoughts and prayers or say it’s too soon to have this conversation after the shellacking at the polls? Not sure.
Comment by P Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:28 am
I disagree with Ron Burgundy. The one flavor of Republicans isn’t Rocky Road. It’s kale.
Comment by Streator Curmudgeon Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:33 am
“…just finger pointing, and blaming of the establishment.” And don’t forget to blame the voters for being wrong as well.
Comment by Skeptic Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:35 am
===To be fair, it seems to be a lot of middle-aged, suburban Karen-types===
Legislative representation in both the statehouse and congress does not reflect the impact of such folks.
Do they exist. Yep. See them often. “Hear” them often.
What is offsetting them, electorally, are the young voting women… by a large margin too.
With respect, I do hear ya. Yep.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:39 am
People who cannot be trusted to give me the rights of my own body.
Comment by Amalia Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:40 am
“… exclusive private club.”
The meeting was held at a Golf Club.
Perhaps they ran into Judge Smails? /s
Comment by Anyone Remember Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:44 am
== angry white people that cannot be trusted to govern==
Look, they wouldn’t be so angry if America was whiter and the government left them alone.
Comment by Henry Francis Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:45 am
If certain Republicans continue to subscribe to the “one flavor” Republican, then let them continue to lose elections. Apparently, their (i.e.,the party extremists) hatred of Republicans that don’t look or think exactly like them is stronger than their hatred of losing elections. So be it.
Comment by Yiddishcowboy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:47 am
We laughed out loud reading the Tribbie story when the president of the Tracy Park Association was reelected GOPie chair and talked about working in the suburbs. Quick warning Don — Phil Crane, Don Totten and Penny Pullen don’t rule there anymore…Happy Holidays.
Comment by Annonin' Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 10:55 am
Great article by Pearson. He hit the nail right on the head.
For those feelinbg a quick snap of the fingers, instant reform, insertion of logic and facts or change of the current Illinois GOP is a no brainer, until the angry speakers at that meeting begin to subscribe to the 80% Reagan Rule and begin to accept some personal responsibility for their actions within the party, the Illinois GOP will continue to flounder.
Even Ives got dressed down by that crowd when she spoke out. Nuff said.
Comment by Louis G Atsaves Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 11:04 am
Well, that party meeting seems like a huge mess right now!
Comment by Levois Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 11:13 am
=They can blame the establishment, they can blame the rinos, they can blame unfair maps. but the facts are Darren Bailey and his ilk are too extreme for this state, and if this is the party now, the party of victims who refuse to take responsibility for their landslide losses=
The only way the ilgop wins a statewide ever again (if this is what they are) is if tractors get to vote.
=While Lauf got her clock cleaned by Congressman Bill Foster in last month’s election by 13 percentage points and she’s still a good 4 to 6 years of maturing away from winning a major election, at 29 years, 7 months, she showed a lot more maturity=
Umm…no. Not by a long shot. She is a nut that continued to say schools have litter boxes in classrooms. This is insane and totally false. She is a kook.
Comment by JS Mill Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 11:18 am
=== =While Lauf got her clock cleaned by Congressman Bill Foster in last month’s election by 13 percentage points and she’s still a good 4 to 6 years of maturing away from winning a major election, at 29 years, 7 months, she showed a lot more maturity=
Umm…no. Not by a long shot. She is a nut that continued to say schools have litter boxes in classrooms. This is insane and totally false. She is a kook.===
This is *everything*
Any attempt… any attempt to legitimize Lauf without a real reckoning by Lauf herself to her insurrection apologies and her propagating conspiracy theories is a dishonest look at Lauf, even with “long term seasoning”
Well said, - JS Mill -
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 11:21 am
==But the mob mentality of these literal party crashers Saturday who thought they could disrupt the governing body of the Illinois Republican Party without showing respect let alone decorum gets them nowhere.==
Golly, I wonder where they got that idea.
Comment by Roadrager Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 11:40 am
===People who cannot be trusted to give me the rights of my own body.===
Just because I am pro life, believe in secure borders, less government and less government handouts, and strict rule of law I’m an angry white person that can’t be trusted?
Comment by I Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 11:46 am
=== ===People who cannot be trusted to give me the rights of my own body.===
Just because I am pro life…===
Yeah, I’m gonna stop there.
If you gloss over the idea that a woman should not have a right to her own choice, then you are dangerous to women’s health.
That’s the GOP.
The racial underpinnings of the GOP are another matter.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 11:49 am
===Just because I am===
No, it’s the constant victimization claims, like your comment. You argue like a spoiled bratty child and expect us to take you seriously.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 11:53 am
What nobody mentioned was Keith Pekau blaming his primary opponents for his loss to Casten. He said that O’Shea, Grasso and Kaspar worked against him. What was crazy is he accused Kasper of threatening to file a law suit against Bailey the week before the general and demanding $500,000.
After Pekau was told by DeVore to sit down his time was up Kaspar immediately confronted Pekau and a loud verbal exchange occurred. Pekau screamed the F word numerous times at Kaspar. Then the young man who’s threatening to file the suit went up to Pekau and he also was verbally abused by him. He screamed at the kid F you F you it was insane and I’m sure Illinois Review will be doing something on it.
Comment by Old time Independent Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 12:11 pm
People view Republicans as angry white people because that is what they are. They are upset they are no longer the dominant demographic that control everything, which to them feels like an unfair loss of privilege.
Making America Great Again is all about restoring that dominance.
Comment by Just Me 2 Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 12:21 pm
To all angry white people that cannot be trusted to govern, in the words of Sen. Anderson, “you guys play a dirty game and we are onto you and the public is onto you”
Comment by Kayak Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 12:26 pm
Per one analysis, Republicans came out to vote in this midterm, just not as much for Republican candidates. That would be an excellent sign if it has more permanence. Old-school Republicans who would do the best couldn’t make it past the primary in many instances.
It’s now the party of Trump, DeSantis and Musk, election denial, authoritarianism and culture wars against “woke” and historically-disadvantaged people. Billionaires buying entire social media sites to spew views that are repugnant to many. Banning books and teachings while touting freedom and opposing “cancel culture.” That’s todays GOP, basically.
Comment by Grandson of Man Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 12:37 pm
- Now we know that’s not true -
Porter comes close to getting it but misses the mark. It is in fact true for many of your candidates, and for a majority of your base.
Comment by Excitable Boy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 12:41 pm
Here’s the thing…would you trust this GOP to moderate itself even if it pledged to do so? Even if it got a nice moderate leader to rally around? Not on your life. The minute it achieved any power you’d see the crazy stuff coming out. It will take decades of actual moderate behavior for any trust to begin, such as participation in governing and ushering the nutters to the side.
Comment by Jibba Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 12:58 pm
Trying to deal with the republican’ts is like dating someone you think you can “fix”. It usually ends badly for all involved.
The republican’ts don’t have the capacity for self introspective analysis necessary to reform the party into something more palatable to the electorate.
Comment by Huh? Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 1:03 pm
==I’m an angry white person that can’t be trusted?==
Also, that’s how your party’s candidates are perceived. You need to figure out how to fix that.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 1:37 pm
==strict rule of law==
Except when it comes to covid mitigations and not attempting a coup of the government.
Comment by Big Dipper Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 2:22 pm
===Also, that’s how your party’s candidates are perceived. You need to figure out how to fix that.===
Agree about the perception- explain why we believe in tough on crime, less government & govt handouts, secure borders but don’t change these policy beliefs
Comment by Tombrady Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 2:31 pm
===Agree about the perception- explain why we believe in tough on crime, less government & govt handouts, secure borders but don’t change these policy beliefs===
The very same reason abortion came back and bit Republicans…
… the GOP wants to complain and run campaigns on these things, but doing any of it is a loser publicly.
Like Jeanne Ives’ IPI budget that had no co-sponsors.
Plus, the GOP, immigration, crime, social policy… the GOP seems to make sure there’s a race element to gin up anger.
The party is out of its depths in understanding the electorate
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 2:49 pm
“They only want to keep screaming about everything they dislike, e.g., urban hellholes.”
THAT.
E
Comment by btowntruth from forgottonia Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 2:55 pm
==explain why we believe in tough on crime, less government & govt handouts, secure borders but don’t change these policy beliefs==
You also probably have to change what you are arguing for based on what’s important to the people of Illinois. Crime certainly wasn’t the issue Republicans thought it was going to be and secure borders isn’t polling very high here either. Your party is catering to your base instead of the masses of independents.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 2:56 pm
“They only want to keep screaming about everything they dislike, e.g., urban hellholes.”
That described a lot of Bailey supporters in my area.
Could rattle off everything they didn’t like about Chicago and Pritzker and the state but offered no real ideas on how they would fix things other than “Get rid of them Democrats.”
Comment by btowntruth from forgottonia Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 3:01 pm
“We have to recognize a lot of people see us as angry white people that cannot be trusted to govern,” Porter said.”
HaHaHa…WHEEEE!…witness the death of irony.
Comment by Dotnonymous Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 3:07 pm
“Republicans come in many flavors,” Porter said…”
At least Republicans will be able to choose their favorite flavor…as the cannibalistic feast continues…gonna be a spiderfest.
Comment by Dotnonymous Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 3:11 pm
I wanted one flavor of GOP too. In Illinois, the one that rejected an incompetent and fiscally irresponsible Rauner and his ilk. Then Nationally, which bled into Illinois, the one that rejected the NY Democrat of 60 years and immoral and pathological Trump.
I’ll settle at butter pecan as my last hope. 😉
Comment by Lurker Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 3:31 pm
= I’ll settle at butter pecan as my last hope. =
I misread that as “bitter pecan” and thought you might be talking about some GOP candidate from Georgia.
Comment by cover Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 4:06 pm
==but don’t change these policy beliefs==
When you’re trying to shove unpopular policies onto a population that doesn’t want them, you’re going to have to do more than change how you say your beliefs. You’re going to have to abandon or moderate them if you want power. Or hope for an unpopular incumbent like Rauner got.
Yapping about the border in a non-border state is irrelevant to our lives. Try getting involved in governing, like actually saying yes to legislation if you get some input.
Comment by Jibba Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 4:41 pm
yes, an Ernest experienced and qualified republican candidate for a local office came knocking on my door, I had to say he seemed nice, and I respected that he was going door to door, but I had just had enough and I am sorry. He said that “I am hearing this a lot”, thanked me and went on his way.
Comment by tallone Monday, Dec 12, 22 @ 5:58 pm