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* If you’re a state or local government employee or retiree, and you have access to the Intertubes, then chances are you’ve received a variation of the following e-mail…
(I)f people vote yes to have a new Illinois Constitution then ALL PENSIONERS RECEIVING A PENSION FROM ANY GOVERNMENTAL UNIT IN ILLINOIS WILL BE IN SEVERE JEAPORDY OF HAVING THE CONSTITUTIONAL GUARANTEES OF RECEIVING THOSE PENSIONS PAID REMOVED AND THEIR PENSIONS WILL BE IN JEAPORDY.
Everyone receiving a pension and their spouses who reside in Illinois should VOTE NO regarding the proposed Constitutional Convention. EVERYONE, whether residing in Illinois or anywhere else, should advise their family and friends who live in Illinois to VOTE NO regarding the Constitutional Convention.
We have fought very hard over the years to secure our pensions. Government mismanagement is rampant in the State of Illinois. The State Pension Funds are among the lowest in the country. They cannot get their hands on our pensions under the present Constitution.
About a year ago, Lisa Vessi and I won a huge case, IOVINELLI vs. FRANKLIN PARK, which ruled that the municipality is required to fund the firefighters pension according to the funding statute (section 4-118). It means we can at long last enforce funding. In a federal case stemming from that case, the court ruled that insurance companies are NOT LIABLE for the attorney fees run up by municipalities is fighting pension funding. Since then towns such as Alton, Illinois and others have been settling their funding cases.
If our present Constitution is terminated all will be lost because the government will then be able to amend the funding statute and really underpay the pension funds. Hope this helps you understand the gravity of the situation.
* The original letter was sent by Palatine attorney C. John McCauley. It’s been forwarded countless times, and several people have sent it to me.
I was able to get ahold of McCauley yesterday.
* Did he really believe that current pension recipients would be in “severe jeopardy” of losing their guaranteed pension payments?
We danced around quite a bit over semantics, but McCauley maintained that if a constitutional convention is held, then the provision in the current constitution guaranteeing benefits will “absolutely” be eliminated. I asked why he was so certain of that end result. McCauley said the nation’s current economic woes all but assured that a con-con would strip or alter the consitutional provision.
* Here’s the constitutional language in question…
Membership in any pension or retirement system of the State, any unit of local government or school district, or any agency or instrumentality thereof, shall be an enforceable contractual relationship, the benefits of which shall not be diminished or impaired.
* The teachers unions - which are probably the most heavily against a convention - aren’t even claiming that current retirees will lose their pension payment benefits if the above language is deleted or altered, so why, I asked McCauley again, would he use that “severe jeopardy” language?
McCauley said there would be no guarantee what happens if the case goes to court. A judge could uphold contractual obligations made under the current constitution, or not. McCauley claimed that no state had ever changed its constitution in the way he fears will happen here, so the courts could do just about anything.
* My own opinion is he’s engaging in over the top fear mongering.
But, as I wrote the other day, I don’t personally blame state employees and even retirees for being against a con-con. I can understand their fear. I just don’t agree with it.
* On a related note, Chicago Sun-Times columnist Mark Brown recently came out in favor of a con-con…
While I do not totally dismiss [the opponents’] stated concerns, which range from the cost of a convention to the possibility of special-interest wackos hijacking the process, I would first submit to you my own interpretation of what could persuade so many individuals and groups from such diverse situations to come to the same conclusion.
Simply put, these are the powers that be. They’re comfortable with the way things are.
They’ve got their share of the power and the ability to exert their will on the process. Everything doesn’t always go their way, but they have a seat at the table, and with that comes a certain level of predictability about what influence they can have on public policy.
Their common worry is that if the wrong people — people from outside the normal channels — are allowed an opportunity to tinker with the state Constitution, it might upset that balance of power and put them at a disadvantage.
What you might want to consider, then, is whether you’re as satisfied with the status quo as them. I’m not.
Exactly.
* Related…
* Illinois Advocates, opponents debate constitutional convention
* Attend Con Con debate today
posted by Rich Miller
Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 10:57 am
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I was wondering where the daily Concon shill post was.
==My own opinion is he’s engaging in over the top fear mongering. ==
You seem to think that anyone who opposes concon is engaging in over the top fear mongering.
There is a difference between being afraid and being smart.
Anyone who participates in a government pension plan would be either crazy or really dumb to vote for a Concon. Sight all the court cases you want. All it takes is one right wing judge. Have you checked out the rosters of the Illinois courts lately?
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:19 am
==There is a difference between being afraid and being smart==
But most people aren’t both….
Comment by Vote Quimby! Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:23 am
==Anyone who participates in a government pension plan would be either crazy or really dumb to vote for a Concon==
or for any public official who votes for ‘pension holidays’ or other budget schemes
Comment by Vote Quimby! Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:26 am
Not really. With the current constitutional protection pension payments will be made regardless. No pensioner has lost a penny because of the Madigan pension holidays. It may not good gov’t but it doesn’t effect their payments. That guarantee is crucial.
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:30 am
===All it takes is one right wing judge. Have you checked out the rosters of the Illinois courts lately?===
It’s not a state constitutional issue, it’s a federal issue — the impairment of contracts clause prohibits states from passing laws to get themselves out of contractual obligations. It can still be litigated in state courts, but don’t forget that our beloved state courts interpret the protection against reducing their compensation so broadly that they found that they have a constitutional right to cost-of-living increases.
And if you’re worried about judges ignoring what the state or federal constitution actually says and making up the law to suit their own views, I’d worry a lot more about a liberal judge than a conservative one.
Comment by Anon Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:49 am
Groups and people who are against the Con Con are not against change. It is cynical to think that there cannot be change unless there is a new Constitution. It is also naive to think there will be change if there is a new Constitution. Like Rep. Fritchey says if you go to the Dr. and he tells you there is nothing wrong that is fine.
Comment by Harry Caray's Glasses Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:51 am
The anti concon folks have ran a campaign based upon fear…. lost of public pensions, lost of pro-choice options,lost of township government, and on and on.
Fear of special interest. Are not groups asking you to vote no aren’t they special interest groups trying to protect their slice of the pie.
State government seems broken. New Constitution may be a way to fix.
Comment by confused voter Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 11:54 am
don’t forget that our beloved state courts interpret the protection against reducing their compensation so broadly that they found that they have a constitutional right to cost-of-living increases.
IIRC, that was an issue with the Judges’ Retirement System. When it got to court, guess who got to rule on the issue?
Comment by Six Degrees of Separation Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:01 pm
Where can we find information on how the ConCon works? Questions like:
What percentage needs to vote yes
Is not voting a no vote
How are the delegate picked
How are changes brought up and debated
Do the voters get final say
What percentage needed by final vote
When is the final vote
Is there an FAQ
Comment by How Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:10 pm
Read the constitution.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:11 pm
Gee Bill, you are such a victim.
Your previous postings on this subject exposed you. You believe a constitution empowers governments over citizens, instead of citizens defining and limiting governments. Your definition makes all of us government peons, serfs and peasants. It’s not what we do in America - sorry.
Your pro-tax stands reveal a mind that believes that taxes are our duty, instead of recognizing it as a governmental burden with the backing of force and imprisonment.
Your faith is misplaced. You believe in bureaucracies and politics over real life.
As Illinois smolders in ruins economically and governmentally, you suggest we just clam up and play the cards we are dealt by this corrupt government. We know what to do. We over turn the corrupt games cheating us and redefine the rules. We are empowered - not them. We are in charge, not because we can vote, hold rallies, and file union complaints, but because this is our government!
Perhaps you think we should just stay quiet and pray we don’t lose our dwindling share of a government teat, instead of thinking about our family’s, neighbor’s and children’s future with our corrupted, broken, bloated, rotted, state government. Maybe you think you got yours, but the rest of us are tired of getting shafted so that you can think it.
You don’t believe in people taking control of governments, do you? You like the way things are! At least enough not to lift a finger to join the rest of us in a revolution, right?
When we started a war with Great Britain, there were lots of people like you around. They looked down their noses at the small businessmen, the military, the everyday people who lost patience with King George. People like you were unwilling to risk losing their share of the government teat. They were afraid of losing. After the revolution, they packed up their powdered wigs and moved to Nova Scotia.
You’ll like Nova Scotia, Bill. Lots of taxpayer funded social programs dictating daily life and extracting wages to subsidize income redistribution up there. Canadian “health care” too. And spectacular scenery with cliffs for all you lemmings to fall over when Ottawa demands it.
We’ll help you pack!
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:30 pm
Nova Scotia sounds nice about now. lol
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:38 pm
Many people assume the entire constitution would be junked. I doubt it. Just amendments, probably, with recall and term limits probably at the top of the heap.
Who would lead the charge to take out the pension language? I would suspect the public employees’ unions are better equipped to stack the convention than any other groups out there.
I also suspect that the business groups opposing con-con would be all for it if they thought they had a chance to get rid of the pension language or pass any other anti-union provisions like right-to-work.
Comment by wordslinger Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:43 pm
Right now the snow is flying, the lighthouses are shrouded in sea mist, and the forests are ablazed in color.
Too bad it’s a Canadian gulag. Did you see how they voted yesterday?
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:45 pm
===Did you see how they voted yesterday?===
I can hardly keep up with Illinois, let alone some ferrin country.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:50 pm
VanMan,
You are rambling again about the revolutionary war. While that may make you feel better it really has nothing to do with the Con Con issue. In fact, the war was fought over the right of the rebels to form their own government and to have their own constitution.
You seem to be advocating anarchy here in Illinois… survival of the fittest… no taxes…no laws…That is not what the Declaration of Independence nor the Bill of Rights call for.
You blame the state of the economy, not on Republican fat cats, who rape their corporations and receive hundreds of millions of dollars when they finally get fired, but on the government’s efforts to help those less fortunate than you are.
The Constitution is not responsible for all of the corruption you rail against and if, by some strange chance, concon passes, you’ll see that very little, if anything will change. When that happens you’ll be back railing against “the people” that you now to appear to champion.
Unfortunately for you, my vote counts just as much as yours and I am not afraid of much and I’m not going anywhere, least of all, Nova Scotia. I wanna be right here as Barack Obama leads our country into a new era of prosperity and personal liberty that has been so diminished by 8 years of Republican in the White House. It is a great time to be an Anerican and an Illinoisan.
Vote NO on concon to preserve your civil and human rights. Show the wackos like Pat Quinn and Vanilla Man and McCain and Strawberry Shortcake that we the people shall prevail.
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:53 pm
LOL.
Everybody seems to be in fine form today.
Let’s take a little breath, shall we? Thanks.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 12:56 pm
Driving directions to Halifax, NS, Canada
1,621 mi – about 1 day 2 hours
There’s a bus leaving the Loop within the hour.
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 1:01 pm
Be under it.
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 1:01 pm
Well, ok, Bill was right about pension holidays. (Is it ok to add that he needs to be right once more today to equal a stopped clock?)
Comment by Anon Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 1:05 pm
?
lol
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 1:05 pm
VanMan,
Oh yeah, I forgot to add that Barack will be leading the country with the help and support of that great American statesman Dick Durbin, probably the greatest Illinois Senator ever.
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 1:11 pm
==Bill was right about pension holidays==
you mean about no pensioner losing a penny because of them? That may be true, but what about the future retiree? Do you honestly think Illinois will be in a financial position to fully fund these pensions ANYTIME in our lifetime? Or what services would have to be cut once the boomers retire and the system drains dry? Would a state bankruptcy void the constitutional claim? And the feds are in even deeper with the Social Security pyramid scam, so they won’t be around to help us.
Comment by Vote Quimby! Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 1:23 pm
How—I’ll try to help.
What percentage needs to vote yes (60%)
Is not voting a no vote (No)
How are the delegate picked (TBD)
How are changes brought up and debated (TBD)
Do the voters get final say (YES!!!)
What percentage needed by final vote (60%)
When is the final vote (November 4–along with that other election)
Is there an FAQ (You just started one)
Comment by Vote Quimby! Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 1:25 pm
Pensions don’t ever have to be fully funded. Only the payments have to be fully funded. Yes, if the state of Illinois declares bankruptcy a court would decide how pensions would be paid. The current constitution guarantees that pensions would be paid first.
Once more, for the slow learners, Is underfunding pension plans good government, NO!
Does it mean pensioners won’t get paid, NO!
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 1:43 pm
There you have it! Bill was right twice in one day! And he did it the same way a broken clock does — by giving the same answer twice.
Comment by Anon Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 2:21 pm
I should visit Nova Scotia, I want to hear some Scottish Gaelic!
Comment by Levois Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 2:25 pm
Anon,
If I do it again will I beat the clock?
Comment by Bill Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 2:26 pm
IF . . .
Comment by Anon Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 2:31 pm
I wonder if there should be any language regarding pensions even in the constitution. That’s not to say of course that we shouldn’t offer anything to those who work in state government in their retirement. At the same time there is a problem with the system especially if pension funds are raided and also underfunded. Somethings got to give.
Comment by Levois Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 2:40 pm
==Read the constitution==
That will educate the majority of the voters. Most will not even know of the question until they are handed their ballot. Why haven’t the proponents started a FAQ website or something? It’s fear of the unknown that will cause voters to vote “No”. These simple questions can be answered.
Thanks for answering my questions Quimby. With regards to the “Is not voting a no vote (No)”, so if a total of 10 people vote on the issue, only 6 need to vote “yes” and we have a ConCon?
Plus, I think it is your “(TBD)” answers that scares me. Those are important to me.
Comment by How Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 2:41 pm
==Oh yeah, I forgot to add that Barack will be leading the country with the help and support of that great American statesman Dick Durbin, probably the greatest Illinois Senator ever. ==
And Blagojevich as Illinois’ new self-appointed junior senator.
Comment by VanillaMan Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 2:44 pm
Life is full of TBD, How.
Comment by Rich Miller Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 2:51 pm
Rich
You oughtta give Van Man and Bill a free classified ad on insider exchange for making this one of the more enjoyable thread reads of recent memory.
Comment by Speaking At Will Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 3:59 pm
VM,
Would you or anyone else really be upset about Blago naming himself as senator from IL? Seems to me, half the statehouse would be there to see him off and help him pack! It would be a fairly bloodless way of seeing him off, and even if by some weird quirk of fate, he spent the rest of his career in the US Senate, with 99 other sane senators, he’d be no harm.
Comment by cermak_rd Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 6:08 pm
There are other ways to revise the constitution - amendments. All it takes is a legislature who is willing and strong enough to enact the changes.
Why take a risk of holding a con/con? I do not see an upside.
I can apply for my state pension in 10 years. Meager as the monthly amount will be and trying to live on a 401k (that has tanked) and social security, my pension will be a significant portion of my retirement income.
I will not vote for something that may jeopardize my future retirement income.
Comment by Huh? Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 7:04 pm
Bill, you’re wrong even when you’re right. It would be just as correct to say “Rod’s pension holidays” or “Unions’ Pension Holidays” since they all supported the bill that made them happen.
You should be thanking the Speaker for bricking that goofy $26 billion pension bond deal that would be worth about $18 billion right now, and even less if any of the pension funds had taken any GOMB expert investment advice.
Comment by Arthur Andersen Wednesday, Oct 15, 08 @ 10:47 pm
Blagojevich sees the writing on the wall and it is telling him that using the governor’s office to get to his White House dream has ended.
So he needs a new gig, and an Obama election will give him the chance to become a US Senator. With McCain and Obama on the campaign trail, being a US senator isn’t the election curse it once was.
Blagojevich has always focused more on national image and issues than state issues. He will be a natural in the Senate.
If Obama is elected president, expect Blagojevich to appoint himself as Obama’s replacement. That gives Rod two years to remake his image, money to collect on a national scale, and a new drive towards the Oval Office.
He’s thinking about it. I bet he’ll do it too.
Comment by VanillaMan Thursday, Oct 16, 08 @ 10:44 am