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The furor and the damage done

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Illinois

* I’m glad to see that the state’s GOP congressional delegation is finally starting to act like grownups…

Illinois’ Republican congressional delegation attempted to tone down their rhetoric Thursday over housing detainees from Guantanamo Bay at a state prison by issuing a series of questions to Gov. Pat Quinn.

“As we move forward with a dignified and precise discussion regarding the cost, security and legal issues…,” the delegation’s letter begins.

The letter is in stark contrast to one the delegation sent to President Barack Obama over the weekend that raised the specter of such a move inviting a local terrorist attack.

“If your Administration brings al-Qaida terrorists to Illinois, our state and the Chicago Metropolitan Area will become ground zero for Jihadist terrorist plots, recruitment and radicalization,” the first letter read.

[ADDING: Read the new letter by clicking here.]

That first letter, of course, was drafted by Congressman Mark Kirk. It prompted a huge backlash in the media which continues to this day. This, for instance, is the Southern Illinoisan’s “Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down” for today…

THUMBS DOWN! To the amount of hysteria stirred up by politicians who don’t want detainees from Guantanamo Bay housed at a prison facility in Thomson. Gov. Pat Quinn is attempting to sell the prison to the federal government. The facility would house a lot of federal prisoners and possibly a few hundred detainees from the Guantanamo prison. Closing Guantanamo is a legitimate political issue for Congress and the federal government. But many politicians are making it sound like Al-Qaida operatives will be roaming the streets. There’s always room for reasonable political discussions, with the emphasis on reasonable.

Kirk jumped the gun and assumed several facts not in existence and twisted other facts to the point of no recognition. Here’s one of his more egregious false assumptions from this week…

“Once here, federal law mandates these terrorists have a right to visitors,” Kirk said. “Federal policy allows up to 10 followers or family members per prisoner. With 215 coming to Illinois, that would be over 2,100 Al Qaeda followers and family members connected to Jihad coming to Illinois, likely connecting through O’Hare airport.”

Except, the prisoners won’t be allowed visitors other than pre-approved legal counsel.

Let’s hope things start to calm down. But the damage to Congressman Kirk’s reputation will not heal any time soon. Instead of waiting for the facts and asking sane questions, he went completely off the rails and started screaming about how we were all gonna die if we allowed these prisoners to be sent to Thomson.

…Adding… Related…

* E-poll shows support for housing Guantanamo prisoners in Illinois: A straw poll of 541 voters in state Sen. Susan Garrett’s 29th District indicates 52 percent of respondents are in favor of moving prisoners from the military base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to an idle Illinois prison. Another 35 percent were opposed, and 13 percent said they were undecided. She received responses from 541 constituents in the poll e-mailed two days ago.

* U.S. Rep. Halvorson questions selling Thomson prison

* Illinois GOP tweets: Prison talk

* Ill. Senate president: State lawmakers have no control over housing terror suspects

* GOP now the Party of `Noooooooooo!’

posted by Rich Miller
Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:03 pm

Comments

Spin this one, 10th GOP.

Comment by Obamarama Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:09 pm
Rather like when Rich said back on 16th April of this year ‘like a foghorn in a library’, it has been suggested Kirk tone it done and have a sense of responsiblity with his choice of words.

Anybody remember this “I think the people of Illinois are ready to shoot anyone who is going to raise taxes by that degree”?

Seems a bit bent on either scaring us or inciting us into over reacting anger.

Comment by Cindy Lou Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:11 pm
The sad part of this is that while Kirk’s reputation may be damaged for the general public, these sorts of hysteric statements serve to increase his profile amongst today’s conservative activists.

Comment by the Other Anonymous Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:11 pm
“But the damage to Congressman Kirk’s reputation will not heal any time soon.”–Rich Miller

with the media?

Comment by Will County Woman Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:17 pm
Agreed, TOA, and I think that’s a good thing. Because there are a lot of reasonable Republicans & undecideds who have been tolerating the kook wing of the party, and are tired of it. The people Kirk was pandering to would never have voted for a Dem anyway. The people he alienated are the swing voters he supposedly is (or was) able to attract. So I say, let him reach out to Palin, let him denigrate our justice system. It will only work in his disfavor.

Comment by Thomas Westgard Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:19 pm
Some (not all) of the GOPers learned it’s hard to maintain a reputation as tough guys when you’re scared of locking folks up in a super-fax. No one saw the contradiction?

Comment by wordslinger Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:21 pm
“Except, the prisoners won’t be allowed visitors other than pre-approved legal counsel.”

Isn’t it cruel and unsual punishment to deprive innocent prisoners of the right to see their loved ones.

Isn’t it innocent until proven guilty.

Comment by True Observer Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:26 pm
I’m still puzzled by Kirk’s assertion that the TSA (& FBI & CIA & NSA etc…) will allow these terrorists in at all.

Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:28 pm
I don’t know cindy lou, the democrats did back away from passing a state income tax increase, didn’t they? mike madigan felt that there was some truth in what Kirk was figuratively saying.
and, there is a strong possibility that there won’t be any talk of a tax increase until after november 2010. so….

Comment by Will County Woman Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:30 pm
TO, are you arguing that they should be allowed to see their relatives because it’s cruel and unusual punishment in order, then, to say that by allowing their relatives and friends to see them it creates a severe risk to the region?

Try leaving your twisted DC spin-logic at the door. Thanks.

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:31 pm
So the GOP is not acting like grownups. Maybe they would have acted and responded differnetly, if Durbin/Quinn had acted like an adult and consulted with them prior to making the announcement. Even democratic Congresswomen Bean ad Halverson are distancing themselves on this issue.

Comment by Lee Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:34 pm
Except, the prisoners

But of course, they are NOT prisoners. They are enemy combatants, without the legal rights of PoWs.

If you want PoW status, you need to have on a uniform, and report to a real government. Otherwise, you CAN be locked up like that.

Comment by Pat collins Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:34 pm
Lee, do you mean, then, that the GOP was right to go all goofy before all the facts were in?

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:38 pm
“Try leaving your twisted DC spin-logic at the door. Thanks.”

Such reason and logic.

The whole point is, assurances are being given about no visitors.

But, how can that be because they are being tried in federal court under the Constitution with all the privileges attendant thereto.

Any judge who does not give them visitation privileges would be violating the constitution.

This is a civilian trial not a military one. There is no basis to deny them visitors.

Comment by True Observer Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:39 pm
Also, to be clear, I fully agree that Quinn and Durbin should’ve been more proactive with this. But that doesn’t excuse the absolute insanity displayed by some.

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:39 pm
Let them have visitors. It’s a good way to find more terrorists. Of course, the terrorists would know that and not visit anyway.

The whole scenario makes no sense.

Comment by Pot calling kettle Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:48 pm
T.O., I appreciate your concern for extending appropriate rights to these detainees. Having said that, good luck getting a visa to enter the US from Yemen.

I don’t think the good people of Thomson will be building new hotels to house the expected onslaught inmate friends and family. And I don’t think these detainees will be getting out on bail anytime soon either.

But like I said, I appreciate your concern.

Comment by 47th Ward Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:53 pm
I bet no one asked this gentleman what he thinks about it, printed yesterday in the SJ-R editorial section:

No detainees in Illinois!
Allowing transfer of the Gitmo detainees into Illinois makes my skin crawl and my nightmares come back to life.

After spending time deployed giving medical care to the detainees, I was physically abused by them, had urine/feces thrown on me, one of them attempted to take my life twice with a makeshift knife, and to top it off I was their saving grace when one of them attempted to take his life and I was a first responder.

What gives me nightmares even more is the fact that while so many miles away from the United States and in complete isolation one of the most dangerous of the group not only found out my name and my wife’s name, but even knew my address and threatened to kill my family. The horrible accuracy of his information still keeps me up at night fearful for my life and that of my family.

Three years after I put that place behind me, I hear my elected officials want to bring these monsters even closer to me. Every day I try to fight the fear and every day I get closer to winning the battle, until today. Today, if it goes through, would be my worst nightmare.

Please, readers of this paper, write to your elected officials like I have done to keep the detainees out of Illinois. There is no good that can come of it and no restful sleep will ever be had by me again.

Brian Kutzora
Springfield

Comment by Segatari Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 12:58 pm
I think the biggest damage to Kirk comes from how he is regarded by the Chicago area media.
Don’t think that’s important–maybe we can get a quote on the topic from Governor Poshard.

train111

Comment by train111 Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:00 pm
===Don’t think that’s important–maybe we can get a quote on the topic from Governor Poshard.===

Actually, you grossly contradicted yourself. Poshard had a horrible time catching a break from Chicago media. His pro-gun, anti-gay, pro-life positions made him a pariah.

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:02 pm
Unless, of course, you were posing a question and being ironic. In which case I apologize.

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:02 pm
Segatari, while horrific, what you just described is a common story among all prison guards. I’ve heard those same stories time and time again, including the “they got my address” story about street gang members.

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:04 pm
“good luck getting a visa to enter the US from Yemen.”

In case you haven’t noticed, they’re already here. All the 19 on the planes were already here.

Plus, there’s a big ruckus among the Dems right now about depriving the illegal immigrants of their rights to participate in the new health insurance program.

Aren’t we being hospitable.

Comment by True Observer Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:04 pm
=== All the 19 on the planes were already here===

Perhaps you didn’t notice that immigration standards have been hugely tightened up since 9/11.

Enough with the spin, TO. Think before you post or take a break. I’m tired of policing you.

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:06 pm
Leaving the crazy fear tactics aside I still am against this. Gitmo is bought and paid for and designed especially for this purpose. The Thomson plan or any other is a huge waste of money.
On the other hand, if it is going to end up Thomson, Illinois should lease it to the DOD with a very large front end payment and annual lease payments out into future years thus providing needed cashflow. We do in fact need the extra cell capacity to offload overcrowded and deteriorating prisons elsewhere.

Comment by A Citizen Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:07 pm
===Illinois should lease it to the DOD ===

That’ll never happen because it would require a vote by the GA. They don’t want to touch this, either.

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:10 pm
Rich

I was being ironic indeed. The gist of what I was saying is that Poshard’s campaign was hobbled by the fact that he couldn’t catch a break from the Chicago media. The situation I see Kirk possibly getting into is the same. If he takes too many far right positions, he will kill any support he may get from the Chicago media, which would have a detrimental effect on his chances of being elected just as it did with Poshard. How much of a detriment to his chances would be caused by being pounded on by the Chicago media is an open question

train111

Comment by train111 Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:25 pm
Of course, if Kirk does indeed lose next November, we all know it’s ACORNs fault :->

train111

Comment by train111 Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:27 pm
The thing with TO that I find, what’s the word? Stupid? Republican? Palin-like? is this statement:

“This is a civilian trial not a military one. There is no basis to deny them visitors.”

Here in the fact-based world, there are laws and rules about prisoners that one could research. It’s work, but it leads to fact-based discussions. That work would lead to discovering that prisoners are subject to extremely tight restrictions on every aspect of their lives, including especially strict control over who may visit and under what circumstances. That determination is almost completely left to the discretion of the prison guards. The only constitutionally-guaranteed visitor is counsel, and even that can be done under extremely controlled circumstances.

People keep telling me there are Republicans who appreciate reason and intellectual integrity, and who don’t mind the work inherent in a thoughtful debate. Unfortunately, the only people I see calling out the insanity, in my personal experience, are Democrats. As here. I know Republicans read this blog, so why did none of them challenge this kook’s ignorance?

(grumble)

Comment by Thomas Westgard Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:30 pm
I am in Garrett’s district and oppose bringing the detainees to Illinois. Why would we want them housed in this state, with a major airport and city.

Comment by north shorer Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:35 pm
I’m sure Mark did an e-poll and found his own numbers. What a joke, and remember this is of one of the most liberal parts of the state. Highland Park is about as liberal a place as you’ll find in America today. You had a poll earlier this week that said democrats and indies were against it. Stick with that.

I don’t think his reputation went anywhere. The administration tried to dump 100 gitmo prisoners no one else on the planet wants and which they’ve been unable to figure out what to do with for a year. they are going to miss their own deadline and just fired their handpicked guy greg craig who was in charge of the issue-read the time magazine story. Kirk looked tough for his consrevative people he needs to win over and the media will have a really tough time overlooking 10 years of moderate votes and things like the suburban strategy against people like alexi and hoffman.

maybe it’s because they see alexi and hoffman and jackson as lightweights, but we really haven’t seen any scrutiny of their positions yet in the chicago media. Jackson wants to pull out of afghanistan, since apparently she knows better than the 4 star generals there on the ground.

Comment by shore Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:35 pm
Okay, I exaggerated. Huckabee called out his party for mindless, knee-jerk opposition to everything Obama does. That’s integrity on Huckabee’s part. And although Rep. Kirk has been soiling himself with fear, some of his Republican counterparts have told him to tone down the hysterics. Still, I wish there were more of this self-monitoring in the GOP. The inmates have been running the asylum over there for long enough.

Comment by Thomas Westgard Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:37 pm
–Jackson wants to pull out of afghanistan, since apparently she knows better than the 4 star generals there on the ground.–

A lot of people on all points of the political spectrum want to pull out of Afghanistan. Probably the loudest voice right now is George Will.

If you can define the current mission, eight years in, let’s hear it.

Comment by wordslinger Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:45 pm
The president just got back from asia where we’ve had troops for quite some time, and it doesn’t seem to have hurt our interests. Every major terrorist attack in the last decade has been launched from the afghan/pakistan tribal area, and I’m in no mood to wake up after another attack to learn that the moment the cat moved away, the mice started playing again.

Urban politicians generally don’t like the military and deployments no matter what, and jackson’s knowledge of the issue probably doesn’t go beyond a 2 page brief some intern downloaded from the internet. She probably couldn’t tell mcchrystal from petraeus from eikenberry when handed a lineup and remember senators have to represent the states interests and be able to have face to face one on one meetings with these people and not get played.

Obama doesn’t hold their hand in those meetings.

Comment by shore Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:55 pm
===Urban politicians generally don’t like the military and deployments no matter what===

Exqueeze me?

Comment by Rich Miller Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:58 pm
Israel has the same problem with Palestinians who have tried to be suicide bombers but were intercepted, or killers of Israeli civilians on cross border incursions. No one says “kill them immediately”, but any continuing detainment is costly, a security risk, and there is the chance that Americans will be kidnapped and held until some or all terrorist prisoners are released.

In the Afgan-Pakistan region, the preferred American approach is now to bomb the homes or gatherings of the leaders of the terrorist groups, even if that means killing their family members and others near them at the time of the assault. This is driving the terrorist leaders out of the country and back to Yeman, Pakistan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. And there are no more trainnig camps in the Afgan region, just Wahabbi schools in Pakistan where Radical Islam is taught as a political philosophy and not as to specific terroristic tactics.

The reality is that we have won in Iraq, Afgan, and the region. We have driven the terrorists underground or out of the area, by targeting their installations and leaders. This is a very Arab way of fighting, and the Arab “man on the street” understands it.

Taking prisoners and holding them in detention halfway around the world in a DOD facility military prison makes no sense to them, or to me. The CIA and DOD used to take prisoners and suspected terrorists and send them to other Arab countries for interogation (almost certainly including torture), and afterwards that country would either dispose of their bodies or release them to go home if they were inadvertant capturees. We stopped that practice after it was reported in the press. Long detention makes no sense in the Arab culture, and now GITMO shows that it makes no sense in ours.

Comment by Capitol View Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 2:17 pm
======
Lee, do you mean, then, that the GOP was right to go all goofy before all the facts were in?
======

Rich, if I posted a link to Fox’s “Making Bad History”, would you let it stand? Talk about people looking goofy before the facts are in.

Comment by Anonymous Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 2:27 pm
Urban politicians are generally very anti-war, it’s more about principle to them than reality. They argue the money should be spent on issues confronting urban America than what they see as the military industrial complex. This isn’t a new concept. The cbc, the progressive caucus, largely urban based cd’s hate deployments no matter what and opposed dod spending.

Comment by shore Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 2:30 pm
U.S. Rep. Halvorson questions selling Thomson prison

Add her to the list of incumbants unwilling to risk re-election a year from now. This was a bonehead political move from Quinn, Durbin and Obama. They made the announcement as though this was a great idea. Remember the quotes? It was never a great idea politically, and for party leaders, you have to wonder if they were even thinking at all about opposing views - from their own party.

Just how hard is it to see that a Gitmo prison would fall into the same NIMBY category as nuclear power plants, nuclear waste dumps, forest fires, earthquakes and tramp feces?

The opposition to it writes itself - instantly, voraciously, and emotionally. Calling opponents names, calling them cowards or mocking them for jumping to conclusions without hearing all the facts is unrealistic. Expecting a oppositional candidate to not make hay of this is also utterly unrealistic.

Comment by VanillaMan Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 2:55 pm
What no one seems to address is the lousy location of this prison. DoC, through a couple, maybe three Govs resisted asking for $$ to fill it up because it is in the middle of nowhere and the logistics of inmate movement (remember, even in max security, inmates get moved around the system, have court/medical appointments) were a potential cluster****.

I think The President should admit he made a mistake and keep these creeps in GITMO. Failing that, I find the notion that the State can garner a windfall for an underused, poorly sited facility (with a few maintenance problems) quite naive.

Comment by Arthur Andersen Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 3:51 pm
AA in a max they have a little court room and ship the judge in, and they do most medical on sight.

we have a lot of remote prisons. Tamms, Big Muddy etc. We usually dont put supermaxes in heavy population areas

Comment by Ghost Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 4:26 pm
Geez, AA, it’s really not all that bad up there, they stopped having to ride their mules into town a long time ago ;-0 Bet I can still drive all those little ol’ country roads without giving it much effort or thought. Bet there’s not a back road up there I haven’t been on.

Comment by Cindy Lou Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 4:53 pm
- True Observer - Friday, Nov 20, 09 @ 1:04 pm:

“good luck getting a visa to enter the US from Yemen.”

In case you haven’t noticed, they’re already here. All the 19 on the planes were already here.–

At least 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, and they originally came on student/tourist visas, but overstayed those visas to commit their plot.

You remember Saudi Arabia, don’t you? They sell us a large portion of the oil we use to fuel our lifestyles; they have allowed us to base troops on their soil despite the protests of their citizens. Saudi Arabia is very undemocratic and may well become unstable when King Abdullah dies.

Yemen is very close to a failed state; the Saudis recently had some military operations there to put down Yemeni rebels and protect the Saudi/Yemeni border. If you look on a detailed map of Saudi Arabia, you will see that most of the Saudi/Yemeni border is labelled “The Empty Quarter.”

I have taken to telling my friends that we shouldn’t have issues with illegal immigrants; they just work 2 or 3 full-time jobs and live 5 or 6 to a one-bedroom apartment and send money to their families back home. We should be far more concerned about those immigrants masochist enough to subject themselves and their families to the idiotic bureaucracy that is American immigration policy. That’s where the majority of our “terrorists” seem to be coming from (when they aren’t disaffected white boys with a grudge against the government that they perceive to have “wronged” them somehow. For example: Timothy McVeigh).

Comment by Lynn S Tuesday, Nov 24, 09 @ 12:31 am