Latest Post | Last 10 Posts | Archives
Previous Post: *** UPDATED x1 *** New polls: Jackson up by 17 over Halvorson
Next Post: Tenaska’s Turkey Is Nothing To Be Thankful For
Posted in:
* Rep. Dwight Kay introduced a new bill today…
Amends the Abused and Neglected Child Reporting Act. Adds personnel of institutions of higher education, athletic program personnel, and early intervention providers to the list of mandated reporters under the Ac
This is obviously a response to the Penn State horror show. The bill makes a lot of sense, so there doesn’t seem to be any real need for debate here. But I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the reaction by that university to the scandal. Continuing refusal to release documents, a student riot in support of the alleged enablers, etc., etc.
We can’t do anything about that university here in Illinois, but our state does have two members in the Big Ten, including our flagship university, so…
* The Question: Should Penn State be kicked out of the Big Ten? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please. Thanks.
posted by Rich Miller
Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 1:42 pm
Sorry, comments are closed at this time.
Previous Post: *** UPDATED x1 *** New polls: Jackson up by 17 over Halvorson
Next Post: Tenaska’s Turkey Is Nothing To Be Thankful For
WordPress Mobile Edition available at alexking.org.
powered by WordPress.
I am one who believes in letting the investigation play out before we take big action. When you say kick penn state out of the big 10, if you mean football that’s one thing. If you mean the men’s swimming team and the women’s basketball team which to this point had nothing to do with this, I think you are going over the top and are out of line.
Comment by Shore Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 1:47 pm
the alleged crimes and coverups are horrendous. but focus is needed. dont penalize all of the student athletes and ancillary enterprises supported by the athletic programs because of the actions of a few. punish the guilty.
Comment by langhorne Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 1:52 pm
But then there’s be only eleven members of the Big Ten!!!
Comment by Elo Kiddies Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 1:53 pm
I think no, for the same reasons Shore mentioned. I admit, when the story first broke, I thought Penn State should have suspended its football program and forfeited the remaining games. They could spare whatever poor Bowl team would end up with them from embarrassment.
But then it occurred to me that none of the current players had anything to do with this scandal, yet they would be punished just the same. That isn’t right. The program itself can still be sanctioned, but if the NCAA or Big 10 does that, they should also allow current players to transfer without penalty. It’s wrong to punish innocent players for the crimes of their coaching staff and administrators.
I’d prefer to see Penn State hit with a fine large enough to equal their TV, football ticket sales, and merchandising revenues and direct all of that money to a fund to help abused kids. That seems to be a fair way to get something positive out of this mess.
Comment by 47th Ward Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 1:54 pm
I don’t usually weigh in on questions, but that program is odiously vile right up to the top of the athletic department, which means all sports programs are impacted, not just football. We’re talking about the serial rape of children here and the horrific lack of a response by so-called adults. They protected a rapist to protect their program. Their entire program should be banished.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:00 pm
I don’t think you permanently penalize an institution based on temporary situations, no matter how horrific. I realize this happened over a period of 20 or so years, but permanent is a lot longer. I think removing all who were even remotely involved in the scandal would be a good idea. That goes for the Trustee’s of the University as well. I’m talking everyone.
Of course, I also believe a thorough legal investigation should take place that would include local, university and State police.
Comment by Ahoy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:05 pm
There seems to be a lot of information missing on the whole event. I would venture a guess that the Board of trustees may have fired too quickly without knowing everything. First, you put people on admin leave until you figure out the whole story, then act. If two people isolated the information from Joe Pa and the president I’m not sure bot hof them can be fired. Particularly, when one of them oversees the campus police. I’m not sure how much we expect a 74 yr old man working 60 hours a week to follow up on something he informed the “Right people”to do what is right.
I also haven’t heard how this was really a football program problem. It might be when all is said and done.
I guess since a professor at Northwestern and his students lied to the court about information used to free inmates we should also review their status. Did a guilty nurder go free to roam our streets? Do we know?
To the Bill (so to speak) will there be training involved? It’s easy to pass a law telling someone do something, It’s another thing to make sure they have the tools to actually make a difference.
Comment by frustrated GOP Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:08 pm
First on Kay’s bill–It’s a good idea generally. It clarifies some aspects of the law for camps and such that happen on university camps, but involve underage kids. While high school teachers are required to be mandatory reporters, college staff and faculty working with underage kids generally are not and don’t receive any information on it. The “training” isn’t much-most places have a 30 minute video tape so the burden isn’t that high. Given non-college age kids are fairly often left in the care of adults at universities for a variety of activities from classes to camps, I give Kay credit for thinking through it and introducing it.
In terms of what should happen to PSU—I tend to think the athletic conferences should stay out of it. I agree with Rich’s point about the vileness and completeness, but I don’t see a ton of advantages to adding the NCAA and Big Ten into the mix of already mixed up accountability. Law enforcement and the State of Pennsylvania should probably deal with it.
Comment by ArchPundit Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:13 pm
No.
The crimes and the coverup are unspeakable, going up to perhaps the current governor of PA.
But prosecute the individuals, don’t punish the tens of thousands of individuals who had nothing to do with them.
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:14 pm
They should expand mandated reporters to anyone working for a company who receives state funding. All this bill does it chase a problem in another state.
Ultimately the real goal is to say, if you see children being abused you have to report it. Why pick those three because of Penn state?
Comment by Kyle Hillman Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:17 pm
They did NOT protect an alleged rapist to protect the program. They protected an alleged rapist to protect their jobs. Big difference. (Any whistleblower knows the consequence for outing a colleague. I am not condoning the alleged crime by any means, but having been a whistleblower means putting your own livelihood in peril, and not just at the institution you work for.) Suspension might be in order, but banishment takes down a far larger constituency for the sins of a few.
Comment by Anonymous Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:19 pm
I was encouraged to see Louis Freeh take over the investigation. I think we have to wait to see how the investigation proceeds before doing anything.
In the meantime, they Big Ten should whack the hell out of that rotten Ohio State program, no matter what the NCAA does.
Comment by LincolnLounger Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:20 pm
No. Why in the hell are we punishing students for what university personnel did. That is the conundrum in this entire saga for me. The students did absolutely nothing wrong, but in the end will likely bear some of the brunt of whatever punishment may be coming down the road. Deal with the university criminally and civilly. Don’t punish the innocent.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:21 pm
===The students did absolutely nothing wrong===
Sorry, but when tens of thousands march in the streets for JoPa, count me out.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:22 pm
Voted NO. But the football team should suffer a 2-3 year ban. That should allow for the time to clean up what they’ve let develop over all the years that led to this travesty.
Comment by Anon Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:22 pm
no. not taken from the B1G, but punished. and now. the team should have suspended play. if I were a Nebraska player, I would not have wanted to enter the athletic facilities where Sandusky showered with coaches. (yes, look it up.) and the rape in the nearby football team facilities. have not read what it was like at the game against OSU with fans taunting, but it will be worse at Wisky. it always is, even with nothing going on with an opposing school.
PSU is under actual NCAA investigation right now for lack of institutional control. they could do what Miami is doing….take themselves out of the bowl picture right now…. since there may be sanctions against Miami from the NCAA, and in the case of PSU there is an incredible cloud in addition.
do the right thing, PSU. ban yourself from the bowl game. you’ve already lost at least one oral commit, lost a sponsor from the television coverage of your game the first weekend, and even if the Rose Bowl says they would take you I doubt they mean it since you are projected to go elsewhere. have some honor now even if you had none for the last 15 or 20 years.
Comment by amalia Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:22 pm
–I’m not sure how much we expect a 74 yr old man working 60 hours a week to follow up on something he informed the “Right people”to do what is right.–
Perhaps when that “something” is an eyewitness account of the rape of a 10-year-old boy by your Defensive Coordinator in your team shower, you might put a little more effort into it.
As in calling the police immediately. Not continuing to employ him. Barring access from your facilities.
My expectations are a lot higher in the case of “something” like that.
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:22 pm
I don’t think they need to be kicked out, but I’d be ok with not allowing the football team to play in confernce championships or bowl games for a few years. Its about time someone stood up for the victims.
Comment by Frank Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:23 pm
===I’m not sure how much we expect a 74 yr old man working 60 hours a week to follow up on something he informed the “Right people”to do what is right.===
And if that child was his grandchild? Was this the appropriate response level?
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:25 pm
The message and lesson must be harsh and understood by all in our education system, throughout the land. The abuse of children will never, never be tolerated. The pain to the University must be felt by all.
Abhorrent is too mild a word. Financial penalty seems to be all that these folks understand. If the punishment is outrageous enough, those in charge will see that the rules and proper safeguards are in place and this doesn’t happen again.
I personally would bring back the firing squad.
Comment by Justice Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:25 pm
I’m with Rich on this one. Death Penalty (the NCAA one, not the more permanent version.) I don’t want them getting revenues from games with Illinois, and I want them to know that being part of the Big Ten means something — like not looking away when children are being horribly abused. Sorry, but it would be kind of hard for me to root for PSU in the Rose Bowl any time soon.
Comment by soccermom Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:28 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty_(NCAA)
Comment by soccermom Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:29 pm
frustrated GOP, I’d like an answer to my question before you post another comment, please.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:30 pm
“I’m not sure how much we expect a 74 yr old man working 60 hours a week to follow up on something he informed the “Right people”to do what is right.”
He didn’t have to follow up too far, when he noticed that his pal Sandusky was still not in jail. It’s not hard to do the right thing — just call 911.
Comment by soccermom Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:32 pm
–They did NOT protect an alleged rapist to protect the program. They protected an alleged rapist to protect their jobs. Big difference.–
I agree with that. If they wanted to protect the program, they would have called the police immediately and some of them, including Joe Pa, would have resigned.
But Joe Pa was chasing that record, you see. And if they went to authorities about this incident, they would have some explaining to do about past reports…..
They were protecting themselves as individuals.
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:36 pm
I voted yes. Charlie Pierce articulated my reason for my vote better than I ever could:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7233704/the-brutal-truth-penn-state
Comment by Montrose Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:38 pm
While reading as much as I can stomach about this horrible and inexuseable way an institution of higer education behaved and how adults ruined the lives of children, by what they did, or failed to do, I voted that Penn State should NOT be kicked out of the Big Ten and this is why.
Community.
The Penn State community will never be the same. That statement does not mean I condone even the smallest of blame or the largest of fault. There are times in life that your history dictates the life you will have, forever after. Penn State has lost everything. The ashes of Penn State are not even created, as the fires of this burn, and grow for the forseeable future. My Penn State, or the Penn State, of all our youths, is gone.
The struggles of a Penn State alum begin with the pride they have/had for a school they thought existed, and the reality of such utter negligence and the pretending to do what is best for their beloveded Penn State while that very exact thing is what ruined Penn State.
PSU is a shattered community, at best. Do we now taint every good the Medical Center had accomplished? Does the English Department have to hide its awards? At what point do you take THAT community to its core of what they thought was great, and destroy that by which Penn State itself wanted all other schools to be measured?
What do those paragraphs have to do with my response? Sadly, it has everything to do with my response. The Big Ten looks very closely at all aspects of joining its organization. While football, or basketball are critical in ensuring a “new” member fit the profile, the Big Ten in the two additions of Nebraska and Penn State made it quite clear Academic Excellence and Community play a huge role. Only Notre Dame has been courted and rebuffed, while school after school have been rebuffed by the Big Ten. If the Big Ten kicks out Penn State, does that mean the Ag, or the Music, or the Science Departments are less than any other member?
The Penn State community has this well deserved taint and stain. It is not going anywhere for at least a generation. Maybe instead of removing Penn State, the Big Ten can enbrace the New Penn State by helping it change for the better and not just dismiss a community that feels the shame, same as the other members of the Big Ten.
It is said healing begins at home. Penn State’s home is the Big Ten, not Beg Ten Basketball or Football. Help the Penn State community, Big Ten. Penn State is bigger than sports.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:38 pm
No. The people involve should be fired, and charged with criminal offenses if possible. The football team should forfeit the right for bowl play.
As for removing them from the Big 10, I suspect most members of that conference have way over supported and protected their football programs, to the detriment of academics, and ethics. Most have the institutional bias to cover for key administrators, and idolize, and overpay their head coaches. Most have ignored serious infractions in their programs in the past. This is an extremely serious problem at Penn State, but the rest of the Big 10 are no saints, with big time football.
Comment by walkinfool Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:42 pm
Until you hit an entity where it hurts, ie in their pocektbook, you will never move a program forward. That’s just how it works. So penalizing the ENTIRE program, while understandably innocent people are affected, is the correct and only thing that will make a difference.
Comment by LoLoBonA Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:45 pm
It is more than just the football program - the athletic department and university leadership covered this up.
Unlike the win-at-all-costs SEC, The Big Ten does have some positive brand, so it is an interesting idea of the Big Ten voting Penn St. out. I’d sure admire the stand if they did so.
But I still voted no, as I think this falls more under the purview of the NCAA, and the NCAA should consider the death penalty for more than just the football program.
“But that would penalize the current student athletes in other sports” would be an objection, but since the Big Ten offers top flight athletics, those students are likely to be able to earn scholarhips to play sports elsewhere, or they could choose to remain at Penn St. and take loans out like most college students.
Comment by Robert Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:45 pm
Well said, Oswego Willy @ 2:38 pm. Banishing Penn State from the Big Ten seems overly harsh. I’m with amalia @ 2:22 pm, Penn State should remove itself from bowl consideration. That’s a serious financial penalty to the university, in addition to all the (deserved) bad press it has been taking.
Comment by cover Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:49 pm
Kick them out. A message needs to be sent no matter how legendary a coach is…no matter how important a football program is…this type of behavior and the cover up/lack of action by the higher ups should result in Penn State being booted from the Big Ten.
Comment by View from the Cheap Seats Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:49 pm
In facing NCAA sanctions, the whole “current students did nothing wrong” thing is true, has always been true, and has never made any difference.
Two examples from the Big10 just from the past few years - Indiana basketball - sanctioned from NCAA, Kelvin Sampson leaves the school to a pro contract. Ohio State football - most (all?) of the players in the t-shirts for tattoos “scandal” (ok, really? they traded a big10 ring for a tattoo and the NCAA is all over it? whatever…) move on to the pros and the institution takes the hit.
Answering the question - no, the Big10 should not take any immediate action re: PA ST status in the conference. Removing Paterno’s name from the trophy was appropriate for now.
Comment by Peter Snarker Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:55 pm
Montrose — great article. Here’s my favorite paragraph:
If that blights Joe Paterno’s declining years, that’s too bad. If that takes a chunk out of the endowment, hold a damn bake sale. If that means that Penn State spends some time being known as the university where a child got raped, that’s what happens when you’re a university where a child got raped. Any sympathy for this institution went down the drain in the shower room in the Lasch Building. There’s nothing that can happen to the university, or to the people sunk up to their eyeballs in this incredible moral quagmire, that’s worse than what happened to the children who got raped at Penn State. Good Lord, people, get up off your knees and get over yourselves.
Comment by soccermom Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 2:57 pm
===Two examples from the Big10 just from the past few years - Indiana basketball - sanctioned from NCAA, Kelvin Sampson leaves the school to a pro contract. Ohio State football - most (all?) of the players in the t-shirts for tattoos “scandal” (ok, really? they traded a big10 ring for a tattoo and the NCAA is all over it? whatever…) move on to the pros and the institution takes the hit.===
Please, oh please … do not equate a tattoo or money… to children being raped, and an institution covering it up (allegedly) at the highest levels of its administration.
While I do not feel PSU should be removed from the Big Ten, at no point do I ever equate NCAA infractions of money, access, or even a tattoo to this horrifying Penn State scandal.
The second you make it about Football Schedules and Basketball Tournaments, then a response to Penn State’s status has no foundation.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:00 pm
Another great piece from Grantland.com. It’s good to know that McQueary did more than we initially knew.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7243526/an-open-letter-mike-mcqueary
Comment by soccermom Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:03 pm
It will take many years for the football program to recover from this horendous scandal. I think their abilty to recruit talent, obtain sponsorships for television, attendance, etc. will all be greatly impacted. They may well fall quickly from a top flight program to a second rate program and never recover. The Big 10 needs to step up and sanction them in some way as well as a show of disgust for what they allowed to happen. Cutting them loose now may be the best thing for the Big 10. It would be unfortunate for the current athletes but they too need to see that there are consequences for such gross injustice.
Comment by Kerfuffle Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:05 pm
I voted no. The rest of the school should not be punished because this was allowed to happen. The ones responsible and those who conspired with them should be all fired and criminally charged. As far as the students are concerned I think that can be laid in a large part to youth and the college age when we really don’t always think all of our actions all the way through. Many of the student body did not agree with the riots and spoke out against them.
As far as the information regarding the whole situation.Either I have not paid enough attention to news reports or there is still a lot of information missing.
First of all in regards to Joe Paterno - Once he hears about this what else has more importance in his 60 hour day? Okay so he reported it to his superiors. After a while doesn’t he wonder what happened to the complaint? I have always been a fan of his but I was disappointed in his response once this all hit the fan. I was expecting him to make a few statements about how the important thing was the victims, that everyone should support them. I expected him to call to the students to calm down and let the investigation take it’s course and that the football program was not as important as what had happened to these boys. He could have been a calming voice in the unrest that followed his firing. I heard nothing like that. Only a couple of comments in passing about the victims.
Next I guess the timeline and why four years passed after the first incident and this Sandusky guy is still in the picture somehow makes me wonder. Then after the second incident, was he gone? Was he still involved with the football program? What has his involvement been since 2002? And why wasn’t someone looking into his foundation where he brings young boys into his facilities for close contact. Some oversight folks really missed the boat on that one.
And finally it seems as though a lot of decisions were made that I would expect were above Joe Paternos position. Who was making those decisions? This Sandusky guy still gets his pension after being allowed to retire instead of being fired and no charges are brought?
I hope that everyone involved cooperates and that the victims are not victimized twice by politacal games and high paid lawyers.
Comment by Irish Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:06 pm
No don’t kick them out.
Ban them from bowl games for two years, take away their revenue share they get from other Big-10 teams in bowl games.
Mandate an “academic standdown” for an entire day where every single class, lab or lecture spends the entire time hearing from victims of child abuse and their family members.
And finally, convene a mandatory faculty and support staff convocation that spends the entire day addressing the issue and how PSU responded to it.
Comment by Give Me A Break Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:08 pm
First, the bill, while well intentioned and probably needed, would not have prevented what happened at PSU.
Second, PSU should be kicked out of the Big Ten, the program should be given the death penalty and PSU should possibly lose its accreditation. When ENRON’s top officers committed crimes, the whole company went down. Same with Arthur Anderson. They did not just fire those involved, everybody down to the janitors lost their jobs. And that was for an accounting scandal. This is much bigger, much more sinister and far longer lasting.
This isn’t just a small scandal and this cover-up is solely based on the power of the football program. An example needs to be set. Losing a couple scholarships, a bowl appearance and a coach will not stop the next school from covering up a scandal. In fact, if a school can’t lose its football program for this, what can they lose it for?
There are other schools and other football programs that will accept these kids. Waive the year off for athletic transfers, make sure all schools will accept PSU credits and move on.
Comment by late to the party Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:10 pm
===Ban them from bowl games for two years===
That’s a fine punishment for recruitment violations.
This is no recruitment violation.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:11 pm
Soccermom …
All law enforcement have stated McQueary made no report and further, did nothing through the legal system outside his “chain of command” while attending a golf outing with the alleged rapist after the incident happened.
There is no excuse, like there is no excuse for all who failed the kids. In the article, it is said he may heve felt he didn’t want to be labeled a “snitch” … a snitch of what, a rape??
The golf outing with the alleged rapist after does not make me feel good that mcQueary did more than what was first reported. It makes me more ill.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:12 pm
It’s getting weirder.
Gov. Corbett, who is being accused by some of slow-walking the Sandusky investigation in 2008 when he was attorney general, approved a $3 million grant for The Second Mile group last summer.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11320/1190145-454-0.stm?cmpid=news.xml
Lester Munson has some good questions, too.
http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/munson-111118/developments-penn-state-suggest-widespread-cover-up
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:15 pm
I agree Rich this is no recruiting violation but a two-year ban hits them in the pocket where they will feel it the most and would impact their ability to continue to recruit players. If you kick them out of the Big-10, they won’t stop playing football and could still gain revenue from bowl games. Football is the revenue machine for PSU.
Comment by Give Me A Break Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:16 pm
Good catch, wordslinger.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:18 pm
Oswego — I hadn’t seen the part about the golf outing. Thanks for letting me know.
Comment by soccermom Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:18 pm
From that Lester Munson story…
===Graham Spanier, dismissed earlier this month as the president of Penn State, argued aggressively in the Pennsylvania legislature in 2007 for the adoption of a law that now exempts university police records from public disclosure. The records now covered by the Spanier-sponsored law include documents concerning the first investigation of Sandusky back in 1998 and 1999. It is highly unusual for the police force of a public university to be protected from public scrutiny.===
It’s a systemic problem. They must be banned.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:23 pm
The Penn State football program has a problem and it needs to be fixed. It should not be dropped from the Big 10. Is there an overriding protectionist philosophy for all the sports programs at Penn State? I hope not, but that is what investigations are for. I totally agree that the current players should not be punished for what happened before they came. As for the coaches and others who had some way of impacting this event - get rid of them, they had to know.
I have played all types of sports and at many levels. I cannot remember a single instance when any coach, regardless of their level of seniority with a team, ever showered with players, ever. Been around many sports camps. Coaches never shared shower rooms/lockers with camp members regardless of ages. They may eventually show up in a locker room for a meeting, announcements, or to get a specific person, but you always knew they were coming. For this event to occur at Penn State just screams a huge problem that simply would not have been tolerated for any school or organization I have been around. I would imagine every sports program across the nation is reviewing their procedures with their organizations compliance officer. Anything else is just begging for trouble.
Comment by zatoichi Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:24 pm
No worries, soccermom, I guessed you didn’t see that. It is rolling out so fast now, makes me sick to know how little was thought about the children.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:25 pm
kick them out, close the university, demolish it, i’m not kidding.
Comment by Spring Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:25 pm
===I have played all types of sports and at many levels. I cannot remember a single instance when any coach, regardless of their level of seniority with a team, ever showered with players, ever.===
That wasn’t unusual at all after basketball practice, in more than one school I attended.
This isn’t about coaches showering with players, however. It’s about a guy raping children over a period of years and thriving via his ongoing relationship to Penn State.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:26 pm
YES
clearly these crimes were ignored for more than a decade
Shut down athletics at Penn State for a like period and maybe everyone will better understand the need to report the perverts and their allies/defenders immediately.
And let’s not kid ourselves Penn State is not alone.
Comment by CircularFiringSquad Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:35 pm
Rich, I get where you are coming from and understand your feeling on the bannishment.
The “Keepers” (alleged conspirators) of the foundations that are Penn State are at complete fault and they purposely and pro-actively continued to corrupt the system to keep all this hidden. I give you ALL of this.
The arguement for me is that of the Penn State community, away from the athletic department and politics, that they were trying to “protect” are better human beings than the Penn State conspirators who were protecting their own idea of Penn State.
Banning PSU is an indictment on the whole Penn State community, not just the alleged conspirators. The Big Ten is a community too, so let Penn State get help.
I doubt they can ever recover in my lifetime.
That was not hyperbole, recovery from this will take longer than a calendar can count.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:35 pm
===Banning PSU is an indictment on the whole Penn State community===
Yep. And I have no problem with that.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:36 pm
For me, OW, the tipping point was the massive student protest. If that’s how they wanna roll, then let them roll somewhere else.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:38 pm
I voted no and I’ll preface my comments with, “if the allegations are true,” which is important.
Assuming they are, then I have to conclude that there is a lack of institutional control at the university. There is little doubt the football program ran the athletic department - the AD was hand-picked by Paterno. Everyone in the chain of information was protecting something - for some, it was their jobs, for Paterno and perhaps others, it was (personal) reputation and the program. There are no doubt others who simply didn’t care much.
PSU football is corrupted, which in turn corrupted the athletic department, which in turn corrupted the highest levels of the university. Surprising as it is that they weren’t already subject to FOIA, it’s unconscionable that they conceive they should still be under some loophole on open records after this.
However, I think the overwhelming majority of the punishment should be to the football program. Without it, nothing else follows.
They should be given the death penalty - football only - SMU style for two years. PSU Football earns something like $50 million on $70 million in revenue - that will hurt the whole system, but it is necessary to rid the school of the influence of that program.
Second, the entire board of directors/trustees and senior leadership of the university needs to be jettisoned. Whether they knew anything or not, they are part and parcel of the culture that allowed this to exist and needs to be expunged. Take it down to department heads, maybe further.
There isn’t enough that Penn State can do to make up for this. Showing they care about something other than dollars and/or reputation and cancelling football for the next two years is perhaps the most decent thing they could do.
Comment by Thoughts... Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:40 pm
===I have played all types of sports and at many levels. I cannot remember a single instance when any coach, regardless of their level of seniority with a team, ever showered with players, ever.===
It doesn’t happen anymore. No grown man in their right mind would put themselves in that position.
So the old “horsing around” in the shower defense you’re starting to hear from some of the accused doesn’t wash.
It is not possible in this day and age that it would ever be appropriate for a grown man to be in a shower with a 10-year-old boy. At work. At a state facility.
That’s a crime on its face.
Comment by wordslinger Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:41 pm
As far as bowl game sanctions - that is the NCAA’s job. They are already getting hit in the pocketbook and it will continue for some time to come. Yes, if the Big 10 kicks them out they will still be playing football - just not in the Big 10. Let’s send a clear and decisive message that what happened here went well beyond recruiting infractions. This is going to hurt every team in the Big 10. Get some backbone and do the right thing.
Comment by Kerfuffle Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:42 pm
===
===Banning PSU is an indictment on the whole Penn State community===
Yep. And I have no problem with that.===
Then Penn State can never recover, because the entire community, even those who weren’t students rioting like dopes, or covering up like cowards, or serial raping are lumped in with everything that is Penn State …
If there is no “tomorrow” for the majority of the good, than why have any chance for Penn State to exist? This isn’t about game schedules and recruiting. I guess PSU has no chance to rise again.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:42 pm
The entire football program at Southern Methodist University got shut down in the early 80’s, what is commonly referred to as the “Death Penalty”. The NCAA rulebook says they can only give a program(s) that for “Lack of Institutional Control”.
The reason that was given was that most everyone at SMU, all the way up to the chancellor knew about and enabled players getting money and cars to play ball at SMU. This is a million times worse than paying players, and if Penn State has not shown a “lack of institutional control”, then I don’t know what is. They should at least get the death penalty for the football program.
As far as kicking them out, I voted yes but the leaders and legends won’t do it for the same reason Penn State covered this all up to begin with - because they want the $$$ that comes from big time college football.
Comment by Lester Holt's Mustache Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:44 pm
===Then Penn State can never recover===
I got no problem with that, either. Maybe they could be like U of C, which seems to do pretty well without sports.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:44 pm
Okay, so they never recover. Future players who would have played at PSU are still going to play - just some place else. Let them concentrate on academics with emphasis on ethics!
Comment by Kerfuffle Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:48 pm
Look, I’m all for forgiveness of little stuff. Even medium stuff. I truly am.
But I have no forgiveness in my heart for unspeakable, organized and even sanctioned violence against children. That university has repeatedly crossed a very clear line. We shouldn’t be condoning its actions by allowing it to stay in the Big 10.
Comment by Rich Miller Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:48 pm
Can someone point me to a link that will tell me specifically what McQueary told Paterno?
Comment by steve schnorf Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:52 pm
This just gets worse and worse. One of the victims has been bullied out of school. http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2011/11/bullies-forced-alleged-sandusky-victim-leave-his-high-school/45267/
Comment by soccermom Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:52 pm
==I got no problem with that, either. Maybe they could be like U of C, which seems to do pretty well without sports.
They do have sports–just not big time scholarship based sports. They have this weird thing called student athletes.
And actually, after reading the comments, I’m coming around to Rich’s point of view.
There is one element to this that is still to drop and that’s the Department of Education’s inquiring into their crime reporting. That’s a fairly big issue and can result in penalties from the feds.
Comment by ArchPundit Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:53 pm
===I got no problem with that, either. Maybe they could be like U of C, which seems to do pretty well without sports.===
U of C is Division III & have sports. Not being disrespectful AT ALL, just adding to your statement.
At no point do I feel my responses reflect someone hoping PSU keeps (Name and Big Ten school here) on an athletic schedule.
What I have been trying to elaborate is that Penn State is far greater than athletics and more than the people in this conspiracy.
Your question is a simple “up or down” on its membership. I am just defending my “no”, while trying to balance the same of so many, and the grief of so many more too.
Every movement against Penn State I have backed 100 percent. Leaving no room for Penn State’s redemption by those not involved will never linger longer than the taint and stain.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:54 pm
Yes the university should take some blame here. after reading some of the comments here I am convinced there is no responsibility left in the world anymore. When raping a child has no effect on people what does that say about the university itself?
Comment by Just Because Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:55 pm
big ten is as guilty as penn state–no way the nebraska game should have been played..let’s face it, penn state is a symptom, the disease is greed.
Comment by big zero Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:55 pm
If we’re talking about what should happen — not that anything like banishment or shutdown ever will — I think that Penn State should shut down its own football program for a period of years. The current studnet-athletes (in football and every other sport) should be offered a chance to transfer without sitting out a year, if they choose.
For me, the football program is way out of perpective. Nittany Lion football is too big of an institution, so much so that it squashed a criminal investigation for years (if not activelty squashed it, then by its huge profile it initimidated anyone from saying/doing enough). Too much $, too much prestige, too much holier-than-thou self-image, too much of the day-to-day life for Central Pennsylvania.
To let that corner of the world re-fix its priorities (and to allow for a respectful period of embarassment), the University should turn off the football lights for at least 2 years, maybe longer.
Comment by TomD Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 3:57 pm
“Then Penn State can never recover, because the entire community, even those who weren’t students rioting like dopes, or covering up like cowards, or serial raping are lumped in with everything that is Penn State …”
To quote the Charlie Pierce piece again:
“It no longer matters if there continues to be a football program at Penn State. It no longer even matters if there continues to be a university there at all. All of these considerations are trivial by comparison to what went on in and around the Penn State football program.”
Comment by Montrose Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:01 pm
soccermom…
It only gets worse and worse … this horrific conspiracy is evil to its core.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:02 pm
It’s getting close, but I would want to know some more in terms of who knew what when before I would say toss them out of the Big 10.
I was on the athletic board at NIU years ago when we were a ‘major independent’ (feel free to laugh) and ending an athletic program or getting tossed from a conference would have real impacts on those students involved. I would suggest waiting a while for getting all of the facts (or if they stonewall the facts take that into account).
But if it turns out there was a systemic cover-up or ignoring of the problem, toss em.
Also at this point the conference membership is a stick that can be used, if you toss em that goes away.
Just want to be sure it wasn’t 10 guys in the campus police department who thought they were doing Jo Pa a favor.
Comment by OneMan Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:03 pm
I voted “no”, but half-heartedly. But I do believe that something institutional should be done. Most of the individuals who were closely involved will suffer sufficiently severe penalties that others will be motivated to do better in any similar situation; i.e., the coach, the assistant coach who witnessed the rape, the higher administrators who did not pursue it, etc. But the most disturbing group who are not being punished are the students who demonstrated/near-rioted to protest the firing of the coach. How does society impress them with the fact that they have their priorities upside-down? Maybe the most appropriate response would be to require the University to send money made from the football program to programs to benefit victims of child abuse and programs that enforce prevention and punishment of child abuse.
Comment by jake Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:04 pm
===This just gets worse and worse. One of the victims has been bullied out of school.
What is wrong with the adults? I’d try and specify it down more, but at this points–it’s just the adults that I can do that for….
Comment by ArchPundit Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:05 pm
Anyone have a clue as to why Paterno fired, Curley not fired?
Comment by steve schnorf Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:05 pm
Schnorf — Here’s the NYTimes story about McQueary
“A person familiar with his account said McQueary did not spare the details when he met with Paterno. Nor did he when he met with the university’s athletic director and another senior administrator, the man in charge of Penn State’s campus police.”
Comment by soccermom Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:06 pm
Taking into account the vileness of the alleged crimes, I think the only way for the University to start to recover in any way is to voluntarily suspend football operations for at least 5 years. I do not think the other sports should suffer but if they were to take this action (before the NCAA potentially does it for them) the Big10 would then have both moral and financial reasons to boot PSU.
I guess another question would be how quickly could the conference or the NCAA take action? Would either need to wait until everything is sorted out legally and trials have begun? That could take years. Which, again, is why I think PSU should do it voluntarily now and start by delining to play in the Big 10 title game and any bowl.
Comment by Masters Phil Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:09 pm
montrose,
I guess the only answer is to shut down PSU, which many would like, and, in the eyes of many, a welcomed remedy. I understand that too, and as a father, I too would not lose one once of sleep in a world that did NOT have a Penn State in it.
I am just taking the stance, beyond PSU’s place in the Big Ten, that Penn State, void the corruption and shame and scandal, should itself be given a chance for redemption years and years and years from now. I am getting more sick about what happened to those kids as the facts are churned up again in this thread.
No matter what others think of these posts, I am so sad for the children … the children … that were raped. I have not lost sight of that. I am just looking for a New Penn State to emerge, not Penn State athletics … just a New Penn State.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:11 pm
As they teach us in scouting, never be alone with a child unless it is your own. Always have another adult who can see everything you are doing.
Protection for the kids, protection for the adults, just better for everyone.
Comment by OneMan Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:13 pm
OW-
I don’t doubt your sincerity about your shared outrage of what took place.
To me, it is not about whether Penn State should or shouldn’t shut down, per se, it is abou the focus of the conversation. The actions that ensure something like this never happens again and that allow those that were raped every opportunity to heal - if “healing” is even possible - should be taken. How that positively or negatively impacts Penn State is of no concern. Worrying about an institution is what causes henious crimes like this to occur in the first place.
Comment by Montrose Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:16 pm
==Maybe the most appropriate response would be to require the University to send money made from the football program to programs to benefit victims of child abuse and programs that enforce prevention and punishment of child abuse.==
No, that’s a cop-out, saying PSU can buy their way out of this disaster. Ban them, make those students understand there a certain lines that once crossed can never be forgiven. Why they deserve to stay is beyond my reasoning, certainly a school without honor has no case.
Comment by Wensicia Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:18 pm
I just voted yes. Would have voted no until I read the comments here and the the articles. This was a coverup of criminal actions plain and simple by those with an obligation, legal and moral, to report it to law enforcement.
Comment by Leave a Light on George Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:21 pm
Schnorf — Here’s the link, sorry
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/10/sports/ncaafootball/aspiring-coach-in-middle-of-colleges-scandal.html?scp=4&sq=mcqueary&st=cse
Comment by soccermom Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:22 pm
=== How that positively or negatively impacts Penn State is of no concern. Worrying about an institution is what causes henious crimes like this to occur in the first place.===
Agreed. So Rich posted the question Should PSU be kicked out of the Big Ten. As part of what you describe as part of the “healing process”, does Penn State NEED to get kicked out of the Big Ten? That is another way to read Rich’s question, I guess. I voted “no”
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:26 pm
“As part of what you describe as part of the “healing process”, does Penn State NEED to get kicked out of the Big Ten?”
Fair point. I cannot see a path to fundamental change that does not involve them being kicked out of the Big 10, hence my yes vote.
Comment by Montrose Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:31 pm
@Schnorf, you should read the indictment. it’s a very painful read, but what those kids suffered is way more painful, so… that’s actually all we have for facts legally held. it was amazing to me that Penn State fans were yakking on that Paterno knew nothing when the indictment with facts, including facts regarding Paterno’s testimony, was out. while it is certainly true that folks are innocent until proven guilty, it is also true that testimony came in the grand jury on pain of perjury charges, right? so this is not a case of “indicting a ham sandwich,” as defense attorneys often like to claim can come from prosecutors.
the faster question to answer is what happened at Penn State. now that they have the former FBI chief in action, here’s hoping the NCAA can answer the institutional control charges asap. it’s almost laughable to think about the charges at OSU, even though in the realm of sports they are quite serious, and I believe deserve a harsh penalty. the PSU facts, as described in the indictment, would seem to indicate a lack of institutional control. and while that penalty does not kick them out of the B1G, it is quite harsh when administered.
I was in a bar on Saturday yelling at the tv screen as PSU played OSU. every time Jay Paterno came on I had to be stopped from throwing things…… bunch of gutless enablers and a monster allowed to hurt kids for years.
Comment by amalia Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:44 pm
Absolutely not. The NCAA can give the University the “death penalty” in football which would be the first since SMU (and everyone thought the last).
Eliminate any person linked (and proven) to be a part of the atrocity from the President to the water boy.
I’m sure their will be substantial civil penalties as well that cost the University and some employees a lot of money.
But don’t punish the English major looking to teach or the guy on the golf scholarship going into finance. They had nothing to do with it.
Comment by 1776 Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:51 pm
Guaranteed that more knew or suspected that this was going on and chose to be silent. There were at least three people initially that knew this happened. So what three people do you know that would have said nothing to anyone else?
Comment by MeAgain Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 4:58 pm
I would hit Penn State where it hurts. The Big Ten should look at taking away their share of the Conference revenues. Penn State’s share could be designated for charities that are supported by the various Big 10 universities.
Comment by BW Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 5:31 pm
yes and bring Missouri in instead, save them from the SEC
Comment by mizzourah Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 5:34 pm
===yes and bring Missouri in instead, save them from the SEC===
Slow it down a notch …
Are you suggesting in your “joke” Missouri should be allowed to join the Big Ten on the heels of the raping of children at an expelled school?
I would be hard-pressed to find a school, in the short-term, that would want that mantle in joining the Big Ten, joke or no joke.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 5:45 pm
For the coverups and bad example, they should be suspended from participation for a year, in order to get their house in order.
Comment by Gregor Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 6:02 pm
I say NO. What I am upset about was the State of Penn version of DCFS was involved in the 1998 event where they recorded Sandusky admitting to touching the boys and he needs help, they said “Case Closed” and nothing with done. The WHOLE State system failed the boys.
Comment by Union Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 6:08 pm
Follow-up: After the year without sports, they need to petition the converence for re-admission and make a case that they have made these victims whole, punished the guilty, and made sweeping institutional change. Otherwise, I would not let them back in. The crimes were covered up for the worst of reasons: that admitting guilt was bad for business.
Comment by Gregor Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 6:24 pm
There are reasonable people who believe that adding to the list of mandated reporters will increase the number of unfounded reports and will cause an understaffed DCFS to be spread even thinner, resulting in more needy kids not getting services. I’m not saying that I agree with this, but I think that we should listen to the opinions of those in the field before we move legislation through without the debate you feel is unnecessary.
Comment by veritas Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 6:30 pm
Rich posted ***===Then Penn State can never recover===
I got no problem with that, either. Maybe they could be like U of C, which seems to do pretty well without sports***
And I agree, the problem wasn’t in the academics, it’s in the sports department. Shut down all the sports. IMHO, too much importance is placed on sports over academics anyway. I realize that’s a very contrary, minority opinion, but it is what it is.
Comment by TimB Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 6:31 pm
Thanks, mom–not very specific, huh? Unfortunately, unless I’m reading in the wrong places, neither is the indictment (told Paterno what he had seen). The indictment is somewhat more specific regarding what Paterno reported to his superiors the next day.
Comment by steve schnorf Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 6:42 pm
Amalia, I have read most but not all of it, and it is very painful to read.
Comment by steve schnorf Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 6:44 pm
Ok, so I work for an State agency. A Supervisor witnesses a Deputy Directory raping a young child and reports it to the Director’s office. The Director reports it to the OEIG’s office and then it’s business as usual. The abuse continues for years. I know nothing of any of this, but I do work for the agency. Should I be punished just because I work for the agency? Crucify the Deputy Director, the Director and the OEIG for not doing something. Don’t punish me and don’t punish the students. The entire student body wasn’t out supporting Jo-Pa.
Comment by gsb Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 6:52 pm
There is one week of B1G (yes, that is not a typo, that is the new symbol of the conference) conference regular season play. Here is what I would like to see:
1. This Saturday’s game is played as scheduled.
2. Win or lose, Penn State is barred from participating in the conference championship. If Penn State finishes first in its division the runner up advances to the game Indianapolis against Michigan State University.
3. Penn State is barred from taking part in any college bowl games for the 2010-2011 season.
4. Penn State is punished by the administration of the “death penalty” for a period of five years.
5. The conference bans Penn State from playing football in 2012-2013. All other conference teams are free to schedule another game on these dates, rotating in another conference school that was not on their schedule for these seasons.
6. The NCAA permits any interested current Penn State football player the right to transfer to another college program for the balance of their college playing time, subject to eligibility.
7. Penn State can resume playing a regular schedule in 2014 (no bowl games until 2016).
The only fitting punishment that the institution can understand is something that costs the football program millions of dollars in revenue.
The NCAA and the B1G conference need to set a solid precedent that will send a strong and unequivocal message to any other football program in the USA that the failure to report criminal sexual abuse of minors will not be tolerated.
Comment by Esquire Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 7:01 pm
Rich:
Find me a student athelete that marched in the streets and I might agree with you. Until then, your crusade against Penn State the institution is warranted. The punishment of student atheletes is completely out of line.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 7:02 pm
Let me do a post-script to my comments, however, that I would think long and hard about allowing my child to attend Penn State.
Comment by Demoralized Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 7:08 pm
Yes, kick them out. Both Penn State and Nebraska bring more of the sorts of problems that Big Time College Sports programs like Michigan and Ohio State already bring. We have two of our own, in the original Big Ten. We don’t need two more. Does anyone reading this think that there will not turn out to be a serious, structural problem with Nebraska in the next ten years? Penn State’s problem was structural, not just one person, not just the athletic department. Thanks - bye.
Comment by Another Oak Park Liberal Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 7:16 pm
Penn State only joined the Big Ten conference in 1990. In the great scheme of things that is a very short history. Both Penn State and the Big Ten got along fine without each other for many years up until then. They can do so again. And they should part company.
Comment by Responsa Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 7:27 pm
===Banning PSU is an indictment on the whole Penn State community===
As it should be. The coverups were the fault of the institution rather than one or two individuals, and speak to a much wider policy of circling the wagons at Penn State. This extends to the broader community.
The school still hasn’t learned, opting to make the longtime provost the new president. If ever there was a time for a school to hire fresh blood from outside to change the culture, this is it. More nudges from outside the university sanctioning it seem to be in order.
Comment by Boone Logan Square Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 7:30 pm
===
===Banning PSU is an indictment on the whole Penn State community===
As it should be. The coverups were the fault of the institution rather than one or two individuals, and speak to a much wider policy of circling the wagons at Penn State. This extends to the broader community.
The school still hasn’t learned, opting to make the longtime provost the new president. If ever there was a time for a school to hire fresh blood from outside to change the culture, this is it. More nudges from outside the university sanctioning it seem to be in order.===
Let’s be quite clear. I guess I am not being clear enough.
The English professor at Penn State is part of the community, and yet this professor never met Paterno, Sandusky, et al., and does everything you hope a professor would do, and is of good moral character, and is sickend by this horrible tragedy.
This professor should get more against him/her than the taint ,and stink, and stain, of something that happend on the other side of campus, which he/she had nothing to do with?
Are we saying here EVERY single undergrad and grad student were out protesting? Are we saying EVERY alum does NOT feel shame? THAT is the Penn State community. They feel what you feel. That is the Penn State community of that I speak.
Those dopes who found it necessary to worship at Paterno’s house, the conspirators inside the athletic department, the administration, and all others who aided and abbetted, and let’s not forget Sandusky. Are they the only ones who can claim to be speaking for Penn State?
You want to slam all those not associated with this heinous crime spree and cover-up, heaven help you if you distant family, your workplace … your school are in a scandal so disturbing that you can’t ever redeem yourself because your association to criminals denies you that opportunity.
I am speaking for the Penn State community that agrees with all you say. They hurt. Just be careful using that broad brush, you might get painted with that brush yourself sometime.
Comment by Oswego Willy Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 7:56 pm
I voted no, but I agree that the football program should get the NCAA death penalty. If you scroll down to the PSU numbers in the link provided, you’ll see that football funds the other PSU sports, and then some. Axing the football program will absolutely affect the other PSU sports. There is no punishment severe enough to atone for what (allegedly) happened. I just don’t think being booted from the Big 10 is necessarily the way to go. I certainly wouldn’t be upset if it happened, though.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/05/05/does-football-fund-other-sports-at-college-level/
Comment by Henry Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 7:57 pm
I think it is premature to talk about penalties as they are due their due process. As of this the investigations are ongoing and not a single person has been prosecuted.
Let the process work it’s way through the system.
If it is determined there was institutional knowledge or cover-up, a NCAA death penalty would be in order.
Comment by DRB Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 8:00 pm
PS - if it is found that there were institutional problems, the Board of Trustees should be the ones initially to order a football shutdown.
Comment by DRB Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 8:04 pm
My high school didn’t have football, the college I attended didn’t either, so football doesn’t interst me, and I could care less whether Penn is in the Big 10 or not.
Hitting them in the pocketbook is probably the right answer, but how that happens is up to people more knowledgable about college sports than me.
One thing bothers me, though, a lot of people follow the U of I, even though they didn’t go to school there (don’t understand that, either).
Would all of these people who are screaming “kick them out, close the school, punish everybody associated with Penn State” feel the same way if it were the U of I? Just sayin…
Comment by downstate commissioner Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 8:22 pm
===Does anyone reading this think that there will not turn out to be a serious, structural problem with Nebraska in the next ten years?===
I think not AOPL,
Please don’t drag other programs into this mess. Nothing can compare to what happened at Penn State.
Furthermore, your comment about Nebraska football is simply ignorant. Please do some homework before you slander a program that has never had a major NCAA violation of any sort, let along a horrible child abuse coverup. You don’t want Nebraska in the Big 10? That’s fine, but please don’t suggest there has ever been any sort of scandal at Nebraska. You look foolish when you make dumb statements like that.
Comment by 47th Ward Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 8:28 pm
Why would any conference want an athletic program like this in it? Why would any upper tier program for any sport, OSU MSU, Nebraska, want to be tied to this through a conference? To me it’s a no brainer…. Penn State might have done nothing to save face, or whatever… But if the Big10 stays silent, well then…..
Comment by 618er Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 8:44 pm
Oswego Willy - I am not equating what OSU and IU and USC went through with PSU. I am saying the whole “it-punishes-innocent-third-parties” is always always always true with the ncaa. The family running the restaurant across the street from the arena/stadium, the players who were in high school when the bad conduct occurred, etc etc. That “argument” is always the case with NCAA infractions, and this is no ordinary infraction. So if innocent third partiescan suffer for a recruiting violation (routinely), then certainly they can suffer for a child rape cover-up.
That said, I still say no.
Should every Catholic institution be banned frpm sports bc of Vatican cover-up of child-rape? Buh-by notre dame, depaul, marquette, etc etc in that case.
Comment by Peter Snarker Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 9:50 pm
@47th ward…..although Nebraska, when Osborne was coach, allowed a player accused of sexually assaulting a woman to play in a bowl game, right? and that player was eventually found guilty of a lesser offense. and there were some other cases of player violence, right? and it was always dismissed, right?
when we talk about sexual violence and athletics, the list could go on to Iowa, and Penn State has had other incidents. and of course good old Joe Paterno. who proclaimed the alleged sexual assault of a woman by an FSU player during bowl game run up was probably the case of a woman doing what women are known to do, prey on men by coming to their hotel doors. and Paterno said if someone came to his door he’d know to which other doors to send her. in freakin’ credible.
it is probably true that the incidents of sexual assualt and college athletics are not at the same levels as occur in the general population. but the cover up, the ignoring of victims?
that is truly sick. and add to the list Marquette and Notre Dame with athletics. in the case of ND the poor woman killed herself.
college athletics needs to address this problem across the board. it’s about sexual violence and covering it up to benefit sports.
Comment by amalia Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 10:07 pm
The Big 10 is an academic conference as well although I don’t know of many that consider this. I would guess most think it’s all about sports. The Big 10 has an unusual academic sharing program that allows member universities access to all the other universities’ resources. If we separate the sports from the academics I support dropping PSU from all sports programs. The academic relationship may need further consideration.
Comment by RetiredStateEmployee Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 10:12 pm
The investigation and the legal process will play out as to the individuals. What we are talking about here is the institution. It is like trying to discipline a corporation. The only things that can really be done is to take away their charter or to take money away from the university. So be it. The former assistant coach accused of sex crimes will have his day in criminal court and so will the administrators accused of perjury and more. The NCAA and the B1G Conference are not subject to the same standards as apply in a criminal court — I hope that these bodies apply the death penalty in a manner as absolute and decisive of Kennesaw Mountain Landis did when he was asked to serve as the Commissioner of Baseball regardless of what judges and juries do to the individuals. As an institution, Penn State University covered up these crimes for close to thirteen years. The NCAA ought to apply the death penalty.
Comment by Esquire Monday, Nov 21, 11 @ 11:03 pm