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* I received an e-mail from AFSCME yesterday saying they had over 400 people at the Statehouse lobbying “for a fair solution to the pension problem that can be supported by all parties.” The union plans to bring 1,000 people per day through Thursday.
* The Question: Should AFSCME “pull a Wisconsin” and try to flood the Capitol with thousands of protesters? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please.
posted by Rich Miller
Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 10:52 am
Sorry, comments are closed at this time.
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I voted no because I might have to be there this week and a large AFSCME rally would really bollox things up around the Capitol. It’s bad enough with the construction underway, filling it with hundreds of people with nothing to do but yell is too much of a hassle for me.
Plus, have all of the Black Bloc goofballs left the state yet? If not and they decide to have an encore in Springfield, I hope the local police are up to it the way CPD was this weekend.
The time for massive displays of support by AFSCME members was about a month ago. Now it’s just going to be an annoyance and is likely to do more harm than good. Save it for Veto.
Comment by 47th Ward Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 10:57 am
Yes!!! Please put tens of thousands of people into the capital, with pre-printed shirts and signs. It will solidify the growing distrust and distaste that Illinois taxpayers have about public sector employees!!!
Comment by Downstate Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 10:59 am
The building is already cramped with the west wing construction so it would be an especially gifted idea to put more sweaty paper shufflers into the fray. Yesterday they were proclaiming how they demanded to be heard.
When will they understand that most of the current probelems stem from them being heard previously….thus all the raises, fringese
l;imited work loads, etc.
Comment by CircularFiringSquad Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:00 am
I think large numbers of public workers protesting to retain their “best union contract in the nation” will go over well at the same time that seniors are being kicked off the free prescription lists, medicaid beneficiaries are being reduced, and various other groups are being asked to sacrifice.
We will know whether the union leadership understands their predicament.
Comment by Cassiopeia Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:00 am
Yes they should. It would draw national attention to this state in a presidential election year. I can’t imagine the President wants his home state to have a war on labor go national
Comment by Generation X Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:01 am
I am honestly a very strong union supporter when union means what is best for the rank and file (common good). But quite frankly, I am sick and tired of the “We are 100% right - they are 100% wrong - and if you don’t do it our way - everyone is going to die, rhetoric. Stay home and investigate your internal problems unions - rethink what you have been doing all this time to be a part of the problem - instead of part of the solution!
Comment by collar observer Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:07 am
Rallies are worthless.
Comment by gathersno Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:10 am
I voted no, becauase it would encourage more distrust and distaste for State workers as many voters would assume they all left their desks to particitpate.
Comment by downstate hack Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:12 am
No. The public is absolutely sick and tired of protesters and protesting. Protesters lobbying and shouting and chanting for so many disparate organizations and causes have become so ubiquitous that they have almost completely lost the power to influence anything. For many Illinoisans protesters have simply become like old wallpaper that annoys you more each and every time you look at it.
Comment by Responsa Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:12 am
I would rather see the SEIU have the rally because who wouldn’t be intimidated by a sea of purple?
Comment by Jake From Elwood Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:13 am
I voted “no”. The public is aware of the concerns, the legislature is aware of the concerns, the element of pressure is missing. The legislature is going to do what they have to do or not (yet again) and I firmly believe that flooding the Capitol with supporters is not going to sway them based upon recent history.
Comment by LisleMike Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:15 am
Really, Circular….it seems to me that the GA created the problem when they had themselves a little “pension holiday” and then agreed with prisoner 40892-424’s plan to “restructure” aka..cash out percieved equity in the pension plan. Then of course, it wisely borrowed to make pension payments the last few years and saddled the pension funds with the iou’s.
The only reason I think the unions share in some of the blame is because they watched that go on and did utter so much as a peep, even when it was clear to many of us that the piper would need to be paid sometime. Apparently today is “sometime”.
Comment by Raising Kane Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:17 am
No. It won’t help their case, it will cause distraction, and it doesn’t do any good to try to weaken Quinn any further. If they don’t like what’s happening now, wait around for a Republican administration. They should focus their efforts on being smart and strategic at the bargaining table, not stupid and loud in the Capitol.
Comment by Ray del Camino Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:19 am
Yes. A few thousand public employees taking some time off work to come shout about how vital their jobs are might be just the demonstration we need to wrap this up.
Comment by Michelle Flaherty Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:20 am
No, I don’t see why they would. Big difference between fixing a budget and trying to take away collective bargaining.
Comment by Ahoy! Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:21 am
yes. This is not wisconsin, where they have a governor with an actual spine willing to stand with taxpayers. Flood the zone, get the result you worked for in the last election and make the Democrats stand for it in the fall.
Comment by shore Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:24 am
yes. This is not wisconsin, where they have a governor with an actual spine willing to stand with taxpayers. Flood the zone, get the result you worked for in the last election and make the Democrats stand for it in the fall.
Comment by shore Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:24 am
Yes. The union supported the same politicians now willing to gut their pensions, jobs and salaries. Why shouldn’t they be angry?
Comment by Wensicia Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:28 am
I would love to get up from my desk and run down to the statehouse to lobby for the otherside of the union argument.
Unfortunately, that would cost me my job.
Comment by Jade_rabbit Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:31 am
Yes, yes, yes!!!! People power works. Sorry many of you no’s, use the south end doors….
Comment by Mouthy Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:42 am
won’t.make.any.difference.
Comment by steve schnorf Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:52 am
Making a ruckus in the Capitol accomplishes squat. It gets no press pop back in Chicago so does nothing to damage Chicago pols that go against AFSCME’s wishes. Nor does a Springfield protest advance their cause with the Chicago media that can transmit their message to the vast majority of Illinoisans. Wisconsinites are a lot more attuned to what goes on in Madison than Illinoisans what goes on in Springfield, as a whole.
If AFSCME is serious then they need to spend less dues money on shirts and bus rentals and more on starting a strategy of primarying the Dems that they think have sold them out. If they are too scared or too unwilling to primary the Dems, then come to the table for a new compromise solution here.
I supported the tax increase and I supported the federal stimulus that have propped up the state spending as long as it could because I support state workers and the service they provide me.
But as far as the union, I do think AFSCME needs to realize how short-sighted it was to march lock-step behind the Dems year after year of the pension borrowing schemes to balance the budget in the leadup to finally (too-late) coming up with the tax increase last year. I suppose AFSCME is less culpable than SEIU in comparison of the relative Blago propping, but still…
Comment by hisgirlfriday Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 11:52 am
Why not, it’s certainly their right to protest if they want, no one has to agree with them, or even listen to them. Seriously, do you really think it could make the pension reform outcome worse?? The reform is already being hammered out/tweaked and workers are going to take a big hit, and some of you people think they should just take it, with no response? I doubt very much that you would be willing to give up any of the benefits you have and not react. As far as time off, workers are allowed to use their vacation time with approval, departments encourage vacation usage so they don’t have to pay for the time when employees retire or quit. Those of you who think the State has too many workers, not to worry, there will soon be lots of them retiring and/or quitting. So if you are interested in a State job, now’s the time to get those applications in and tests taken.
Comment by Huggybunny Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:04 pm
I voted no. Unfortunately, AFSCME’s members are rather weak as compared to the Teamsters. If the Teamsters ask their membership to picket the members stop what they are doing and 100% picket. If AFSCME did the same only around 30% would do the same. So…if the job still gets done and the State of Illinois still runs smoothly what did it show? That the brothers and sisters are apathetic and that the state could do with less. Thus, a losing proposition….
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:08 pm
Okay so last week we had a QOD that asked did the rank and file union people do enough to sway the GA members.
And we had a question of the day did AFSCME do enough to fight the insurance bill.
And in both cases commenters gave both a bad grade and said they should have done more.
So now we have a QOD should AFSCME do more to influence the legisdlators and many of the same commenters are saying no.
The answer is yes, they should get as many people down there showing that they have the votes in the fall to make changes in case GA members think they should rather listen to the CEOs of major corporations making millions a year that make up the IPI, CCC the Illinois Chamber etc.
They should have their banners read in big letters the real reasons why we are in the fiscal condition we are in because apparently from some of the comments above people don’t understand that it was the GA and Governors that decided to rob the pensions in lieu of telling voters that they were overspending and needed to have more revenue to pay for the excesses.
The union folk should carry big signs explaining they have ideas that would help, like scaling back the pension payback which would ease the back payment amounts. This has been suggested by many people who have fiscal credentials. The signs should also remind people that the union members have taken cuts and even suggested more cuts per the agreement that they had with the governor a year and a half ago. They should also note that while the union upheld their end of the agreement the Gov. reneged. And they should also note that the Gov declined using some of the union suggested cuts that would have saved the state more.
They need to show that they are in it for a solution and not in it for pandering to cameras and tea party organizations like the governor is.
Comment by Irish Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:12 pm
No, the lobby week is the right response. Having members remind legislators that unions should have a place in negotiations for pension changes is the best possible approach to take. Its cheaper than court battles and would encourage member buy in for any pain sharing.
Comment by AC Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:15 pm
I’ve been thinking for a couple of weeks now about the Nixon-to-China qualities of what is going on here. If a R Governor and legislature somewhere was doing to it’s unionized workforce what is happening right now in Illinois, it would be huge national news, day and night. Our experiences of the past 24 months make the truth of that clear.
And here we debate whether the unions should have a rally at the statehouse. As the poet said of bangs and whimpers….
Comment by steve schnorf Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:17 pm
Of course. If they don’t make an effort, why should anyone else care?
From my experience, most folks in the private sector think all state pensioneers are like the double-dipping pols, scamming union leaders and filthy rich school superintendents pulling down six figure pensions.
They lump the retired janitors and food service workers in with those guys.
To get your message out, you have to get some attention. At this point, what do you have to lose?
Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:17 pm
Irish I agree with you, but that isn’t how the majority of brother/sisters of AFSCME are dealing with this. When you can only get 30% of memerbship to call thier reps and take a few hours to visit the Capitol what signal does that send? Shame on the brothers/sisters for not standing at this moment in time and say “enough is enough. I will do whatever it takes to have a fair contract and solution to this crisis that is fair”.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:17 pm
I voted yes because this is the United States and we have that right to voice what we feel. That is one of our freedoms to do so. When, we stop doing that, then we may just have some elected leaders feel they can change the constitution as they are trying to change the constitution now to change the pensions.
Comment by thunder Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:18 pm
If I were a union member, I would not do this. It will only remind citizens that there were only two groups at the pension bargaining table: the government employee unions holding checks and the politicians hands ready to grasp them.
Comment by Cook County Commoner Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:25 pm
Yes. Flood Springfield w/union workers or rent-a-protesters - the more the better; the louder the better; the angrier the better. Come on AFSCME/SEIU, show us what you’ve got! Of course, it won’t do any good - the leadership will have the votes to do whatever they decide to do when it comes to pensions & medicaid. And, of course, your threats of electoral retaliation will fall on deaf ears because come Nov 6 and for all ensuing elections you will still work for Democrats; you will still donate to Democrats; and, you will still overwhelmingly vote for Democrats. The Dem leadership has you exactly where they want you - the reliable, loyal and impotent eunuch.
Comment by SangamoGOP Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:27 pm
–the reliable, loyal and impotent eunuch.–
If you’re a eunuch, I think the impotence goes without saying.
Comment by wordslinger Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:31 pm
No, but I really mean “unless they do it outside normal working hours.”
Comment by anonymice Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:54 pm
Yes, tear up the building like they did in Wis so another contractor can go to work.
Comment by Hickory Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:54 pm
Rich glad you got an e-mail. Not sure anyone else did. But remember AFSCME can’t cause too many problems! They still have to make there large donations to the politicians that sold out the member’s. I can hear Henry now, they helped in the past and will in the future.
Comment by Bob Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:55 pm
OT–but hopefully Rich won’t mind. The White Sox organization will honor the Chicago Police Department for its NATO service at Wednesday’s game and will give each sworn member of the police force 2 free tickets for a game later in the season. How cool is that?
Comment by Responsa Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:58 pm
yes, there is power in numbers!
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 12:58 pm
Yes- legislators need to hear from individuals- not what the media and the big business $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ want them to do for their benefit. The spin is sickening.
Comment by Anonymous Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 1:32 pm
I voted no. The state employees and unions have been heard for years. They’ve had great influence in the policy-making and political processes. Unfortunately, while they were so busy influencing these processes, they forgot that the invoice would some day come due. That day is here. Now, it’s time for our legislators to do what needs to be done to put our financial house in order.
Comment by Foxfire Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 1:54 pm
Nobody should pull a Wisconsin.
It just makes your side look like a bunch of idiots, particularly if you do the full Wisconsin with drums and 60s’ style protest chanting.
Comment by Downstate Illinois Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 2:18 pm
@Downstate: Only if you think that people getting involved in an issue that impacts them personally look like a bunch of idiots.
I was positively inspired by the outpouring of energy in WI - THAT is how you show the nation you are committed to what you believe. And it can help remind voters that the VAST majority of pensions aren’t fraudulent or super duper sweet.
If AFSCME can’t pull those kinds of numbers, then maybe it will show AFSCME they need to be more in tune with its members. A reckoning is coming, but whether it’s for Quinn, Madigan, the GA as a whole or AFSCME is still up in the air.
(Who am I kidding, I can cross one name off that list. Lord knows the bell never tolls for him…)
Comment by Colossus Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 2:37 pm
I voted no because Quinn is a Democrat.
If Brady was governor, then I would definitely vote yes.
Comment by Pillory Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 2:51 pm
Been in the building many times for large rallies. Just another day of background noise for people in the offices. A big crowd is just another reason to cut through the tunnel to Stratton and avoid them.
Comment by zatoichi Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 3:50 pm
1. Did past legislatures and governors raid the pension funds?
2. Did the public sector unions have access to information that either made them explicitly aware or provide clues that they should have asked more questions?
3. Did the union officials endorse politicians who participated in raiding the pension fund?
4. Have union members voted out the officials who endorsed the politicians (for re-election) who raided the pension money?
I think public sector unions will have trouble getting traction until there’s a sense that union officials who–how to put this delicately?–colluded with politicians to raid the pension fund are held accountable.
If raiding the pension funds doesn’t anger union members at their union leadership, it’s kinda like they are endorsing the raiding of the fund.
Comment by Carl Nyberg Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 4:35 pm
Yes. It always makes for great theater, however ineffective.
Comment by Keyser Soze Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 4:42 pm
Wisconsin unified people because Walker was taking away collective bargaining rights and the state’s financial crisis was primarily driven by a talk break for his cronies.
Unions could accurately portray themselves as victims of a corrupt, partisan hack who lied about his true agenda and was taking real-world rights away from people.
In Illinois, the unions were in on the corrupt deals that mistreated the union members.
Comment by Carl Nyberg Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 4:42 pm
Although I fully support the unions, I voted no because I think they should be more strategic in how they fight this. They need to win the media battle and beat this idea that IL’s fiscal problems are somehow their fault. Our elected leaders were not financially responsible and - as one commenter pointed out - union leadership failed their members by allowing their pensions to be raided. However, that is not a reason to punish all workers and allow the State to try to shirk their contractual obligations.
Comment by Veil of Ignorance Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 5:00 pm
These rallies are held mostly for the rank and file so that they can feel that they are part of the process and so that they can see that their leaders are “doing something”. It makes them feel better while they are getting screwed. As far as having any tangible effect on the outcome…forget it. The legislators don’t care.
Comment by Bill Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 5:03 pm
I voted yes anyway. Chaos is my friend.
Comment by Bill Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 5:04 pm
No, because fundamentally the state’s have different governors and leaders and AFSCME isn’t being targeted in IL the way they were/are in WI.
I also think that they union has to be smart not to lose the wider strategic war — the public relations battle with the public. They have to appear responsible, they have to step up to the plate and swallow some tough fiscal medicine — with everyone else — to put the state’s fiscal ship back in good sailing condition.
Comment by NW Illinois Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 5:20 pm
Yes, if for no other reason than that’s what we have the freedom to do in this country. If everyone just blindly accepted the fate that our wondrous legislators handed them, then who’s next? What’s next?
Comment by Inactive Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 5:48 pm
==I think public sector unions will have trouble getting traction until there’s a sense that union officials who–how to put this delicately?–colluded with politicians to raid the pension fund are held accountable.
If raiding the pension funds doesn’t anger union members at their union leadership, it’s kinda like they are endorsing the raiding of the fund. ==
A beacon of light shines out through the fog. A statement of clarity and honesty is bravely put forward for examination and consideration. Well said, Carl.
Comment by Responsa Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 5:57 pm
I think they should go on strike then we will see if the public misses those useless public sector workers.
Comment by kayaker Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 6:19 pm
== we will see if the public misses those useless public sector workers.==
Why are you calling public sector workers useless? Most of them seem to do a very good job.
Comment by Responsa Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 6:35 pm
I say yes, and get Obama back to give a speech like he did 8 years ago. The union needs to be calling in favors. AFSCME gave Obama a launching pad to run for the Senate and Obama owes them big time. I also think the non-public safety members of the union should strike if they don’t get a contract by July 1. If the union doesn’t take some action, their power will just continue to errode.
Comment by Jack Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 6:36 pm
Sure. It will help the Springfield economy.
Comment by Cal Skinner Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 7:06 pm
If not Obama as Jack says at least Pelosi. She need 4 wins here if she has any hope of regaining the house and if the unions are at war with the loacl dems and they should be then it will hurt the national party.
A suprise poll in Tenn found Obama in striking distance in large party because of the damage the legisltive republicans have done there
Comment by western illinois Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 7:50 pm
They need to buckle down , get an agreement & a contract. Forget Wisconsin & rallies…no is or has been paying attention. We’ve enough troubles right here & they need to get serious.
Comment by annon Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 7:57 pm
To answer Jake from Elwood’s question, who wouldn’t be intimidated by a sea of purple? Anyone that plays Northwestern
Comment by Lenin Tuesday, May 22, 12 @ 9:32 pm
=Why are you calling public sector workers useless? Most of them seem to do a very good job.= Sorry I am not, but the people in power seem to think so.
Comment by kayaker Wednesday, May 23, 12 @ 4:35 am
Yes, more attention needs to be brought to this issue. Plus, leave the Capitol a pig sty too (if those rumors were not exaggerated).
Comment by Wumpus Wednesday, May 23, 12 @ 7:31 am